I 've been reading a lot and learning a lot. The other day I discovered the misuse of medication in the 50's and 60's, medications that based on Moms history she very well could have been prescribed, DES Diethylstilbestro is a drug used prevent still births. It never worked for that but was still highly used, up into the 80's. If given in the first trimester it very well could have played a part in deciding my gender. Parts are created in the first 3-4 month, genitals are usually formed in this time. The brain develops at a much slower pace. So the disconnect comes when the brain is saying female and your body parts are saying something different. Another indicator that Mom may have been given this drug, is the fact my testicles did not drop until I was 17 add to that a micro sized penis. Like I've said before I was like this, wanting to be a girl very early on in my life. I've tried to suppress it and was successful for about 15 years. Then one day it came back with a vengence, the desire to be female. That's where I am right now. The therapist is supposed to put me in contact with a social worker and she even mentioned HRT. That would be so nice. To finally be the me I always knew i should be. To be nice instead of always angry, I would love it. So despite what Christians are saying, I did not choose, I am not a pervert, This is a very real medical condition not a choice I made. But since this is the path I was given, it is my choice to take it and do the best I can.There are a few hundred thousand others like me. No one knows for sure because there are no tests you can take and most of the records from the 50's have been destroyed. But all the indicators are there.I wish I could have done this when I was 25, conversion to my real self. Now all I need to do is convince the Dr's my heart disease won't interfere. I may have to go to patches or injections. But however I get there I will make the most of this opportunity. Are any of you in the same boat?
Yes, my mother told me a few years ago that she used DES. She saw an article about it in the paper.
If you do a search there is a huge DES thread here with some pretty good info and links. One member is pretty much a subject matter expert.
Sapere Aude
Hi, Dawn. Yep, I'm another one, almost identical situation except that when the testicles still hadn't dropped at age 15, I was given a series of injections of "vitamins, so you'll grow up right". I went from an effeminate A student to a hairy, angry D student, so that worked well.
There are a number of DES 'sons' here on this site.
With me everything external seemed to be ok. I have been told my face looked effeminate although I don't know if that was DES related. I also had pretty high T when it got tested. Internally I have no idea. My mind was definitely affected though.
It is likely that with DES it was all about timing and when the initial doses began.
Sapere Aude
teenage years is much too late for your testicles to drop, the damage has already been done. Today drs want them in place by age 2. I can easily see your problems now.
Quote from: mm on May 31, 2016, 03:40:59 PM
teenage years is much too late for your testicles to drop, the damage has already been done. Today drs want them in place by age 2. I can easily see your problems now.
Unfortunately in the 50's qnd 60's young people did not envision being able to change. We had very few examples to emulate. Dr Lewis did not seem concerned until after I was 15. Also we did not have the resources available today, like the internet.
Quote from: DawnOday on May 31, 2016, 01:37:19 PM
...my testicles did not drop until I was 17 add to that a micro sized penis. Like I've said before I was like this, wanting to be a girl very early on in my life...
That certainly sounds like DES. Male genital development takes place in a window starting about 7 weeks after conception and finishing at the end of week 12. Penile development is actually split into 2 parts. The first part is where the structure of the penis forms, and the second is a growth and elongation phase, which continues into the later stages of the pregnancy. Testicular descent is something that's also ongoing throughout the pregnancy. Undescended testes and a shorter than normal penis seem to be very common among genetic males exposed to DES, and I think this is because we had normal male levels of testosterone during the first trimester, but then heavy suppression of testosterone for most of the rest of our prenatal development. This has affected the two aspects of physical sexual development that continue into the later stages of the pregnancy (testicular descent and elongation of the penis), as well as causing us to undergo predominantly female brain development (most of the important differences between male and female brains seem to arise during the second half of the pregnancy).
Other symptoms that seem to be very commonly associated with DES exposure are: hypogonadism (chronic below normal male testosterone production); reduced fertility (usually not enough to make you completely infertile though); and a type of body structure known as "eunuchoid habitus", that makes you look a bit like a cross between a man and a woman, and is something that's usually associated with intersex conditions.
I will never know likely. (do they even keep medical records from the 60s?) I think it is somewhat likely my mom was given DES as she was at the then advanced age of 43 and had miscarriages in the past, and all three of my siblings were somewhat premature. To my knowledge my testicles dropped on schedule, but i am not sure. My penis, while not a micropenis, has always been small in comparison to 90% of others.
I've taken the online assessment, but there is so much i don't know about my mom' medical care, that it is not much help.
Personally, the whole DES thing is almost a distraction. It's nice to be able to point at something and say "That's why!", but knowing or not knowing doesn't really alter my current situation. I am what I am, no matter how I got here, and the actions I need to take at this point are not affected.
It's useful in debating with the usual suspects, but that's about it. For the broader community, it's a useful warning that things are not a simple (or simplistic) as they appear, and there are lots of moving parts that go into constructing one of us humans.
Well said Michelle... I say focus on you and who you are rather that why you are the way you are. Anecdotally the why is nice, but better to spend your time and energy on being you
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I'm with Michele on this one.
After years of therapy, I landed on "it just is what is is" and stopped looking for causality from my childhood.
It's important to shed the guilt and shame many of us associate with this to finally be OK with it all.
I for one can look back on any number of things that MAY have contributed. At the end of the day, I just accepted that this is how I am and learning to balance it with the rest of my life became the focus.
YMMV
Quote from: Michelle_P on June 01, 2016, 12:13:06 PM
Personally, the whole DES thing is almost a distraction.
It's important for all of us in a number of ways. Firstly and most importantly, it shows there's a physical basis to being trans (that it's the result of atypical hormone levels during your prenatal development, and is basically a form of intersex, except one in which the main effects have been on the brain rather than the genitals). In other words, trans people are who they perceive themselves to be, people whose brains developed as the opposite sex to their physical and genetic sex. Secondly, it shows that exposure to pharmaceutical hormones during their prenatal development can make people trans (which is something you'd expect to be possible since it's quite easy to induce opposite-sexed brain development in animals by administering hormones to the pregnant mother, but nonetheless doesn't get any acknowledgement in the safety testing etc that these drugs currently receive).
Quote from: Michelle_P on June 01, 2016, 12:13:06 PM
Personally, the whole DES thing is almost a distraction. It's nice to be able to point at something and say "That's why!", but knowing or not knowing doesn't really alter my current situation. I am what I am, no matter how I got here, and the actions I need to take at this point are not affected.
It's useful in debating with the usual suspects, but that's about it. For the broader community, it's a useful warning that things are not a simple (or simplistic) as they appear, and there are lots of moving parts that go into constructing one of us humans.
I would agree with you if there were not so many misconceptions by the so called straight community. The condition is forced upon unsuspecting individuals then we are chastised because of the restroom we use? It's ignorance, just as I was ignorant until about three months ago. If I had not lost my wife due to my condition and not understanding the phenomenon. If I had not sabotaged every relationship I have ever had with guilt and a deep down knowledge I was different. It would also be different if I was 5'7" instead of 6'3". But alas, It has always been present, always on my mind. I didn't want to destroy a second relationship with a wife who is willing to join my investigation in finding myself, especially because we have two children, now grown and with their own paths to discovery for themselves. I've now got the time to investigate. At the time I was looking to be the best Dad I could be. Believe me I've done a lot of soul searching, did the praying thing, hiding in plain sight and still not understanding. Unfortunately/fortunately I have a very active brain that does not settle. I must have answers and now that I do. In my profession I have done over 300 root cause analysis, I was never able to find my root cause and nothing upsets a perfectionist more than imperfection, I can educate others. We are not perverts. We are not interested in your wife and children. Most DES Sons have no interest in the same sex, as do I. I cross dress because of health problems. If I could have converted I would have 40 years ago because it's not what I want to be. It's what I have to be. If I was not driven by events before my birth I would still be married to my first wife and I would not be wondering what went wrong. I always blamed my Mom for dressing me up, when in all likelihood I asked her to dress me up. I always blamed my wife for cheating on me, but my desire to be "who I am" led to secrecy and deceit. Luckily my present wife is trying to understand and the DES explanation has allowed her to believe me when I say "I love you".
Quote from: chris.deee on June 01, 2016, 11:46:04 PM
I'm with Michele on this one.
After years of therapy, I landed on "it just is what is is" and stopped looking for causality from my childhood.
It's important to shed the guilt and shame many of us associate with this to finally be OK with it all.
I for one can look back on any number of things that MAY have contributed. At the end of the day, I just accepted that this is how I am and learning to balance it with the rest of my life became the focus.
YMMV
Here is the difference Chriss-Dee. It took you "Years of therapy" so far I've had three appointments. I'm still in the discovery mode even though I have been this way my whole life. Also my first foray was to discover why I was so depressed and not why do I crossdress. I was fully prepared to keep this to myself. Every time I went to counseling prior I was unable / unwilling to address the 300 lb gorilla. Instead I asked for help to reduce stress. So I ended up in group therapy where absolutely no one was dealing with the same symptoms as I.
Quote from: DawnOday on June 02, 2016, 02:33:07 PM
Here is the difference Chriss-Dee. It took you "Years of therapy" so far I've had three appointments. I'm still in the discovery mode even though I have been this way my whole life. Also my first foray was to discover why I was so depressed and not why do I crossdress. I was fully prepared to keep this to myself. Every time I went to counseling prior I was unable / unwilling to address the 300 lb gorilla. Instead I asked for help to reduce stress. So I ended up in group therapy where absolutely no one was dealing with the same symptoms as I.
Dawn,
You beat me to it. I was just rereading this thread and was about to reply to my own post with this:
After reading my post, it was pretty glaring that I started the post with "After years of therapy..."
Had it not been for those years of therapy and the process that implies, there is no way on earth I could have gotten to the point of "it is what it is" unburdened by guilt and shame.
My intention in that post was not to discount the journey, but rather to indicate that the specific causes of this aren't the most important results.
What I did discount was that part of that journey by necessity is trying to answer the question of "why?" even if the answers are inconclusive or not terribly satisfying.
Apologies to all if my post dismissed anyone's desire to dig into this. My post was worded pretty insensitively.
All the.best,
Chris
Chris, The unbelievable relief I feel from having some life long questions answered is so liberating. To realize I am not dirty, that others are in the same boat as I. Three months ago I didn't have these answers. Hell I didn't even know the questions to ask. I have noticed a marked change in my attitude and my wife appreciates it. I never felt I was the sollen creton I had become. I have avoided making friends and the ones I've had, my angry attitude destroyed them. Now that I have some information I can set about making amends. However I came to this place, I realize this is actually me. As I always wanted to be, regardless of the cause or lack thereof. By exploring my past, I have discovered a future. As a whole me.
Quote from: DawnOday on June 03, 2016, 10:14:38 AM
Chris, The unbelievable relief I feel from having some life long questions answered is so liberating. To realize I am not dirty, that others are in the same boat as I. Three months ago I didn't have these answers. Hell I didn't even know the questions to ask. I have noticed a marked change in my attitude and my wife appreciates it. I never felt I was the sollen creton I had become. I have avoided making friends and the ones I've had, my angry attitude destroyed them. Now that I have some information I can set about making amends. However I came to this place, I realize this is actually me. As I always wanted to be, regardless of the cause or lack thereof. By exploring my past, I have discovered a future. As a whole me.
It's wonderful to hear how much relief/insight/peace you are getting so rapidly.
You have your entire life ahead of you to benefit from this. For that, you are blessed.
All the best,
Chris
i have a quick question. my mother kept having miscarriages and eventually had me in '77. was DES a possibility.
If you are in the US, probably not as it was not used for that purpose after 1971. http://www.cdc.gov/DES/consumers/about/history.html
However, there are other drugs she may have been given that could have had the same effect. See the chart at the bottom of the linked page.
Sapere Aude
I've been told by some of the DES daughters I chat to on Facebook that doctors in the US continued prescribing DES "off label" for years after the FDA withdrew it's approval for DES as a treatment for preventing miscarriages in 1971. The FDA never banned DES; they just ceased recommending it as a treatment for preventing miscarriages.
DES was heavily prescribed in Europe during the 1970s too, in fact the peak in prescriptions in Europe took place in the 1970s, as this chart shows:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj150%2Fmightyhugh%2FDES%2520prescriptions%2520USA%2520and%2520France_zpsdvvzr614.png&hash=1c40fbe648a4ca85020007109bd1bc221e1b1709)
(the apparent drop off in usage in the US from the mid-1950s onwards in that chart is probably misleading, as DES was originally manufactured in 5mg tablets, and during the 1950s the pharmaceutical companies brought in new higher dosage 25mg and 100mg formulations specifically for women who were taking it for miscarriage prevention, so the apparent drop off could just mean that five 5mg tablets were being replaced with one 25mg one).
I was born in a super small town and I assume the doctor did not get the message. My older brother disowned me because I am transitioning and he can not. Makes me suspect des or genetics. Also my aunt had miscarriage issues and her son was tg.
Quote from: ChasingAlice on June 05, 2016, 12:18:37 AM
I was born in a super small town and I assume the doctor did not get the message. My older brother disowned me because I am transitioning and he can not. Makes me suspect des or genetics. Also my aunt had miscarriage issues and her son was tg.
Oh, there are a whole bunch of nasties out in the world that can disrupt the endocrine system like DES did.
See, for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1281309/
The anecdotal clustering could be docs that didn't get the message, or areas where endocrine-disrupting chemicals (EDCs) happen to have been in heavy use for agriculture or other purposes.
It does give us a clue as to where we may have come from, but it doesn't really affect the treatment paths available for gender dysphoria. The only way out is through...
Quote from: Michelle_P on June 05, 2016, 12:47:27 AM
Oh, there are a whole bunch of nasties out in the world that can disrupt the endocrine system like DES did.
There sure are, not just industrial chemicals and environmental contaminants, but hormones and other drugs that are very commonly used in women's medicine, where prenatal exposure is a very real possibility. Every day, millions of women take hormones in the form of birth control pills and other forms of hormonal contraception, that, from what I've read about their properties, are definitely capable of inducing opposite sexed development in the fetus if they're consumed during pregnancy (both female development in male fetuses, and male development in female fetuses). There's also a drug called hydroxyprogesterone caproate, that is in current, widespread use as a treatment in women with a history of recurrent premature birth, which I think is highly likely to be causing female brain development in any male babies unfortunate enough to be exposed to it.
People tend to forget that DES wasn't a pesticide or chemical contaminant, it was a medicine prescribed by doctors. If prenatal exposure to one pharmaceutical hormone is capable of causing transsexuality, that makes it far more likely that other pharmaceutical hormones are capable of doing the same thing.
I am not transgendered, so I cannot speak from experience on this topic. But I am a heterosexual crossdresser, so I feel I can write about that.
I think that heterosexual men in general have a strong sex drive, and that this begins early on. We seek outlets for this, and details don't need to be described here. However, I do think that certain things get wrapped up tightly within sexual exploration during puberty. Obviously, boys see girls and women and ponder them in various ways. Sometimes, the boy catches a glimpse of the "forbidden" or the "tantalizing" - a flash of leg or the inadvertent brushing by of a breast. Those kinds of accidents inform sexual expression, and may inspire behavior that becomes crossdressing. Crossdressing at this age and in the teen years is a convenient way to have a "women at the ready", whereby the boy is able to compartmentalize the behavior in a manner that retains the drive to be virile while also privately exploring sexuality through feminine things. These explorations eventually turn into habits, habits that can sometimes sexually satisfy certain men more than actual female companionship, which is interesting.
Clearly, in some cases, this crossdressing behavior reveals a truth about the boy, that perhaps he is really a female. I've no idea what that must be like, but I've heard that crossdressing can add form to feelings that trace back to infancy.
Anyway, I think crossdressing is quite common and exists in various forms. I have no science to back it up, but I would suspect that over half of all heterosexual men are crossdressers in some form or another. On the one hand, boys and men will feel shame, but only because they believe crossdressing will be perceived by others as an affront to virility. Other boys and men may discover that they are indeed female. I can't really speak to homosexual crossdressing, which apparently, but not exclusively, involves drag performances. I don't know anything about the history of drag performance, but I suspect that story often gets intermingled with the more private crossdressing behaviors, two things that get lumped together by the lay person. This doesn't usually go over well with heterosexual crossdressers, to be sure.
It's complicated, colorful, and fun. But I also recognize that it presents major difficulties in relationships and, it seems, in specific legal matters and civil rights. Hopefully, by the time I don a gray wig, things will have lightened up a bit around here and crossdressing will not be viewed as such an awful thing. Because, in the end, it hardly is.
Alex, you are very new here and I have been here about a year. When I first joined this site my views were not much different than yours. They were 33 years old dating to the end of my transition and a time period where the non binary wasn't well known. We had the term cross dresser and ->-bleeped-<- but they weren't understood any more than the cause of transsexualism was. I have come to understand that the non binary - not fully male and not full female can be many shades of gray. We have people who want surgery for MTF but after surgery will move more midway between the two genders. I have seen the same for FTM were they want a masculine body but wish to live more toward the middle.
We classify cross dressing as transgender because a cross dresser isn't fully comfortable with their masculine roll. Yes the discomfort is small compared to somebody like me who required a full switch from MTF, but it still falls under the transgender classification.
Before surgery, my feeling were much like yours, I enjoy feminine clothing and at times there was a sexual component to it. The main difference is that in boy mode I had a pretty constant depression. I understand that this isn't how you feel and it's what allows you to be comfortable with short term living in the feminine role. When I took the clothing off, I quickly became uncomfortable again.
There are a couple of links you might want to look at if you haven't seen them already. The first (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html) was in the greeting links on your first post. The second is our WIKI (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Transgender) where you will get a better understand what the term transgender means.
I feel that being transgender makes us special as we live in two worlds and can learn the best from each. Where I given the option to be born normal and miss all the pain I had to live through, I think I would chose to live my life the same all over again. I wouldn't have been half the person I am today without the struggle that shaped me into the person I am today.
New here, to be sure. But at 47, I've lived with crossdressing for almost four decades and thought a good deal about the subject, in part because it is worthwhile to get to know oneself :D
In any case, I think the jury is always out when it comes to psychology. Often, definitions of this or that behavior are redefined over time as more data becomes available and folks come out of the darkness imposed by social stigma. I agree that CD is a component of transgender, but I also feel there is a CD component that is distinctly separate from transgender, firmly in the camp of sexual fetish and/or artistic expression. Some have told me that this is a form of denial; which is presumptuous of them. But that's okay.
In my particular case, crossdressing is a mix of sexual pleasure and artistic expression. Interestingly, when dressed as Alex, I am incredibly uncomfortable in public, as though I am about to be revealed as a fraud. I am unable to relax fully, constantly being in a state of anxiety. But, for the most part, it is good anxiety, a kind of exhilaration. At the end of the day, it is such a fantastic release to get back into my male garb!
Just a quick update - I reviewed the definitions for the community and will be cognizant of those in the future.
Anyway, it is a pleasure to discuss this subject in a respectful way. It is one of the reasons I joined this forum.
Quote from: Alex Forbes on June 08, 2016, 06:15:17 PM
Interestingly, when dressed as Alex, I am incredibly uncomfortable in public, as though I am about to be revealed as a fraud. I am unable to relax fully, constantly being in a state of anxiety. But, for the most part, it is good anxiety, a kind of exhilaration. At the end of the day, it is such a fantastic release to get back into my male garb!
Wow! That was an interesting thing to read. As a pre-everything transwoman, I have a rather different experience. I'm actually very comfortable presenting female in public, and at the end of the day I hate having to 'put Michelle away'. I compared it to the feelings I've had at burying a relative when discussing with my therapist. I don't fear 'being revealed as a fraud', as I'm an easy read, all too obviously not cisfemale, and so constantly 'revealed'.
It's interesting that you have this discomfort yet persist in the behavior. That exhilaration must be a strong reward for the activity.
I can imagine how you feel about my comments. Several folks react the same way. I love crossdressing, and indeed the anticipation of crossdressing. And it is fun to get out there for a few hours. But it has become a burden to put all the stuff on, whereas I used to really enjoy it. I also dress perhaps once every two months or so, which is about right. At the end of the day, I am exhausted, and can't wait to take all that stuff off. I do capture the moment with photography, and that has become an important part of the process for me - the desire to improve upon the illusion. But I will confess that I need to work on my voice a bit. Being lazy about that has resulted in some jarring incidents where I apparently come across as a passable woman until I utter a word or two. That is kind of embarrassing.
Perhaps more importantly, it is a pleasure to get to know people in the community who share my interest in crossdressing and transgender issues. When it comes to this "Alex persona" and interacting with like-minded friends, it has been an enlightening experience that has elevated me from the darkness of shame into the light of confidence and pride.
The longer I am on this site, the harder it has become for me to define the word Fetish and the easer it has become for me to see the non binary as part of the the transgender family. I feel more and more that fetish is a term dreamed up by by CIS to explain something they don't understand or feel and is an inaccurate description of non binary behavior.
When Dena first walked out the door, there was a mix of excitement and fear. That continued until I went full time and then it faded. You may call it artistic expression but if so, why don't you feel the same with the metrosexual look? I would venture the suggestion that you feel some degree of comfort presenting as a woman. Yes, testosterone is still messing with your mind as it does with all transgenders but somehow, presenting as a woman has comfort for you. I would also guess where you put on blockers to suppress your testosterone your desire to cross dress and what you feel as the result would diminish. There are site members who are now comfortable in the male role because blockers diminish the feminine drive.
The current thinking on transsexualism is that the lack of testosterone at a critical time before birth causes our brain to feminize. Where the timing or the levels not a direct hit but a glancing blow, what would the results be? I suspect it would be a mix of masculine and feminine resulting in the non binary instead of a transsexual.
Dena - that is interesting what you say about the meaning of the word "fetish." I suppose it has a negative connotation, but I don't see it that way. Indeed, I have to force myself to not see it that way, because I can be quite judgmental about the whole thing. As it is wise to embrace the spectrum of gender expression, so to is it wise to embrace the spectrum of sexual pleasures. Both spectra intertwine in nuanced ways, especially since both emerge in our youth, when we are vulnerable and malleable.
We are complex creatures, to be sure.
I came to the site for information on voice surgery and I stay on the site to help others. Transsexuals for the most part are easy to help. Ask a few questions, point them in the right direction and away they go. The remainder of the problems they face, others can handle just as well or better than me.
The non binary is another story because it isn't simply male or female. You have found a solution that works for you. Short vacations from masculinity eliminate the need for a while and when the vacation is over, you are ready to return to the male role. Other non binary can feel neither or both genders at the same time. Fluid/bigender flip back and forth depending on some unknown factor. They respond to HRT which proves their brains have not developed along the normal path but strange as it may seem, sometime HRT will not put them where they want to be in life. Sometimes all it takes is different presentation. Others are destine to never be fully comfortable.
CIS don't understand how easy they have it never feeling uncomfortable with their gender identity and always knowing what they are when they wake up in the morning. For a small group of us, gender is very complex and different.
The reason why we don't judge on this site is because we can't judge. Even the CIS SOs if they spend any time here come to understand that the transgender is the only one who knows what they feel and what make them comfortable.