i just realized something. being trans is about being who you really are on the inside, being free, correct? so why do we have to give up the things we love in order to be "seen as" female by others? look around. there are butch women who love football and beer and motorcycles, and doing all of those things doesn't rob them of the fact that they are women. there are women who are hippie chicks who dress down, don't wear a whole lot of makeup and wear a lot of loose clothing and flats. they don't have to put these things on in order to be women. and there are women who really dress up nice some days, and dress down other days. and then there are women that are very high femme who always dress to the nines; they look beautiful but they are no "more" women than any other category of woman. there are all types of women.
what it comes down to is, you can be whoever you are and still be a woman. you shouldn't have to prove yourself to anyone. it took me a few months of being hyper-feminine to realize this, and now i've settled in a place where i am confident about myself. because the fact of the matter is, as trans people, we're never going to fit into society's disproven ideas about gender identity, so there is no point trying to appeal to bigots. the only thing we can do is be us, and let the world deal with it.
Yep I never gave up anything when I transitioned. You can't force yourself to be something you're not but then again you kind of go through a period of awakening, as I like to call it once you do start transition. By that I mean you begin to get to know yourself even better without the constraints of trying to "be male"
I think that trying to be super feminine can work against us. We didn't grow up like that and it is quite evident to anyone observing our pain as we try to do unnatural things.
Being feminine is nothing about clothes. I wear unisex tees, jeans, and boots here on my "ranch." When I'm working on a project, I go into town like that sometimes. It makes no difference to me or anyone else. I'm a bit of a tomboy and people accept that.
When I wear makeup, I've found out what works best for me and my behaviors. I wear a simple and light powder foundation and a very light cheek blush. Eye makeup doesn't work for me. I get it.
Given that, it doesn't hurt to watch other women and see what they do. This may be useful if you aren't getting along well in public. I have changed some of my behaviors. I cross my legs now. I keep my elbows off the dining table. I listen more. These simple things work for me and I'm comfortable with them.
Yeah...we all go through that hyper-feminine experimenting teenage girl phase until we figure out what works for us. The difference though between butch women and us is that they risk not looking pretty, but we risk looking like a man.
I wear skirts and dresses when weather permits, but I've figured out how to be myself in a feminine way. Boobs and not having any facial hair do help though. :)
For me, it was much more about un-learning all of the stereotypical boy socialization. Losing the rigidity in my movements, and guarding my speech to make sure I didn't say something too girly, or having to know about sports to fit into the guy culture. While there is a clear notion of what is and isn't "ladylike", women really do have more options in terms of clothing, mannerisms, feelings, etc.
And btw...I'm currently sitting out on my back porch drinking scotch and enjoying a cigar. I refuse to give those up :)
Be the woman you want to be. Just keep in mind that genetic women who are butch and/or non-make up/unshaved often cop a fair deal of grief for expressing themselves that way too.
One thing I have noticed is that women who are overdressed get noticed. We, as a group, tend to overdress when we are just starting our transition. We go super feminine. We want to look nice. As a result we get noticed. And then people start drilling down on us. They do that with cis women too.
This is the most difficult time for us. We are trying to be female. We are standing out. We are getting noticed. And if we don't have that "IT" factor down, people will figure that out quickly.
Quote from: katiej on June 04, 2016, 06:14:15 PM
And btw...I'm currently sitting out on my back porch drinking scotch and enjoying a cigar. I refuse to give those up :)
*giggle* I think it's ladylike if it's single malt, but you're on your own with the cigar >:-)
Quote from: TC on June 05, 2016, 05:03:52 PM
*giggle* I think it's ladylike if it's single malt, but you're on your own with the cigar >:-)
Of course it was single malt. Laphraoig 10 :)
I've given up things that I did to fit in. If it was something that I loved then I still do.
I would still enjoy a nice single malt and a cigar. I sadly can't afford that any more, but I wouldn't decline if offered [emoji3]
I see it as dropping the facade of trying to act like a guy, I had to suppress my femininity when I was growing up. I had four older brothers to beat it out of me, two of them were so abusive that I have had bones broken and been stabbed by one of them. My mother was an emergency room nurse and she sewed up the stab wound so my brother wouldn't get in trouble.
Quote from: kiteless on June 04, 2016, 03:29:52 PM
i just realized something. being trans is about being who you really are on the inside, being free, correct? so why do we have to give up the things we love in order to be "seen as" female by others? look around. there are butch women who love football and beer and motorcycles, and doing all of those things doesn't rob them of the fact that they are women. there are women who are hippie chicks who dress down, don't wear a whole lot of makeup and wear a lot of loose clothing and flats. they don't have to put these things on in order to be women. and there are women who really dress up nice some days, and dress down other days. and then there are women that are very high femme who always dress to the nines; they look beautiful but they are no "more" women than any other category of woman. there are all types of women.
what it comes down to is, you can be whoever you are and still be a woman. you shouldn't have to prove yourself to anyone. it took me a few months of being hyper-feminine to realize this, and now i've settled in a place where i am confident about myself. because the fact of the matter is, as trans people, we're never going to fit into society's disproven ideas about gender identity, so there is no point trying to appeal to bigots. the only thing we can do is be us, and let the world deal with it.
Nicely expressed understanding and "realization" of gender identity vs gender roles and the too stereotypical expressions of culture. I takes some of us a while to get this. During transition I needed to be able to express a full and wide range of gender that had been repressed and kept in hiding. It feels a bit like having a second chance puberty and, like a lot of teens, that might mean something over the top that I have tried on and out.
I consider too that I am and was transgender before transition and before i could accept myself and lived behind a beard and frumpy guy clothes. We can celebrate the diversity you speak of and welcome the fact that we come in all shapes, sizes and modes of expression. This can allow ourselves greater freedom and we need not seek classes or training in deportment, poise or etiquette to know who we really are.
Likewise, for those who do have certain binary goals and want to achieve an image that may include looking like a glamour model or the woman of their dreams, well rock on sisters. It's your call for this one and only life ;D
Thanks Cindi for pointing this out. I have seen some not all that would wear fish net at 10 am.
I understand if you wish you to be noticed, but I don't see a lot of women wearing fish nets especially during that time of day.
I say learn how to dress by observing women at around your age level and see if you can adapt a thing or two.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on June 05, 2016, 11:34:09 AM
One thing I have noticed is that women who are overdressed get noticed. We, as a group, tend to overdress when we are just starting our transition. We go super feminine. We want to look nice. As a result we get noticed. And then people start drilling down on us. They do that with cis women too.
This is the most difficult time for us. We are trying to be female. We are standing out. We are getting noticed. And if we don't have that "IT" factor down, people will figure that out quickly.
Great post. We are a diverse lot like all women and should strive only to be ourselves. Often that means our presentation and style changes over time.
I was always acting when i was trying to be masculine, so being myself has taken a huge psychological load off me. Still, my style is casual, my makeup light and i do not hesitate to continue to do the things i loved before, including some pretty extreme sports as my body will allow.
Quote from: StevieC9 on June 05, 2016, 10:57:24 PM
I would still enjoy a nice single malt and a cigar. I sadly can't afford that any more, but I wouldn't decline if offered [emoji3]
Come to Seattle...I'll make it happen ;D
I had to learn and hear when I was about 10 years old, "heey, look at him, he stands here like a girl" - and still remember stuff like that as it was yesterday... of course I focused since then, always to be as manly as possible... It wasn't really possible all the time, but I learnd how I had to act and totaly hid who I was.... last year, I started to "learn" again by looking (not on a scary way) other females, friends and everyone... in just some weeks it all came back what was hidden so long... so, I didn't realy learnd something, I just had to rember again, and now I0m just trying sometimes to forget what was so wrongly trained, and it's easier with every week... But that's just some behavier/movements and so on...
I'll always like football, singel malts, beer and so on - because it's nothing what defines my gender :)
//sorry for my bad english :-*
It is a free country and you can and should do whatever you want.
With that said - social norms do exist and society can and will judge you if you color outside the lines. You must find a balance between expressing yourself and how thick your skin is - the further outside the lines you are the more negative attention & judgements you are likely to encounter and the thicker your skin needs to be. Coloring outside the lines focuses attention on you - if you are OK with increased scrutiny then do your thing. This applies to what you wear as well as to how you act.
Some don't give a flip about this and to others it is very important to blend in. There is no correct answer; it is a personal choice.
One thing that I have noticed as a middle aged woman is that women my age accept me if I am not too different from them. I'm in my 50's so that means a more conservative dress style at work and socially - no cleavage, no fishnets, no loud makeup, no platform heels, etc. Women my age did that stuff in their youth and now they tend to look down on women their age still doing it.
So, do your thing but if you are over that line be sure that you can handle the consequences.
Quote from: April_TO on June 06, 2016, 07:48:10 AM
Thanks Cindi for pointing this out. I have seen some not all that would wear fish net at 10 am.
I understand if you wish you to be noticed, but I don't see a lot of women wearing fish nets especially during that time of day.
I say learn how to dress by observing women at around your age level and see if you can adapt a thing or two.
I have had the opportunity to observe my wife's dressing habits and mannerisms. It is nice to have a role modal living with you.
Jo
Hi Kiteless;
I agree totally with what Eva Marie says. These days I spend about 95% of my time dressed as myself, just 5% as my alter-ego. Being a woman of later years I think I have found a reasonable medium. I was just in the United Kingdom staying in my UK cottage for the last month and had time to catch up with some old friends and new friends (mostly women). One cis female friend that I met up with a couple of times took me to a couple of social events of hers (a handbell group rehearsal - 6 women and 2 guys and a pub quiz night). I was obviously a bit concerned not to over dress although the quiz night was in a pub full of people. Her comment to me was...Judith, you are very convincing as a female and blend in very well.. Obviously it helps that I have been on HRT for 3 years, have 44B+ bust and now womanly curves, no Adam Apple (never had one) and small hands and feet. But importantly I try to dress my age.
I also went to my local beauty therapist in Devon and she commented that I looked really great - she only sees me when I am in the UK, I went to her for a full facial and to get my Express lashes done (False lashes that last 10 weeks) and my eyebrows shaped and tinted. Again she tells me every time that that I am very convincing now and most would not realise that I am pre-op. I can tell you that getting lashes and eyebrows done helps considerably too.
I also 3 years ago had my Colour Analysis done (UK House of Colour) and have worked hard on my colour co-ordination including lipsticks, blushers and nails. Although I love high heels, these days I rarely wear them and if so tend to use wedges. But I rarely wear jeans or trousers, although I do have some really nice black leather pants and some flowing trousers and skinny jeans. But I spend almost all the time in dresses and skirts as I find them actually very liberating after all those years having to wear trousers!. In fact my deportment coach said in summer its best to just wear a soft off the shoulder skimpy "A line dress" that will move in the breeze. Don't over dress!. If you must take a long line cardigan or short tailored jacket. Most of my dresses and skirts are just above the knee. I.e. Nothing too short. Though I do have some really nice denim shorts. These are quite short! and I have a nice denim skirt too (although that's just above the knee).
For makeup, during the day I only wear a light coverage of Bare Minerals Liquid foundation, blusher, lipstick (soft pink or nude) and mascara (I get my eyelashes tinted), but at night time put on eyeliner and eye shadow and highlighter, plus a stronger colour lipstick e.g. Ruby red. I don't go in for younger colours. I always have my nail and toenails nicely manicured and painted with colours from my House of Colour guide and matching clothes swatch. For Nail varnish I always use OPI - Big Red Apple is my favourite, but I also love other two colours - Is Mai Tai Crooked and Cosmo Not tonight honey. Mascara is Dior Show - Blue Black Intense. I do like wearing open toe sandals (and of course open toe pantie hose). Note no bare legs for my age! If anything I focus on dressing down to blend in.
Mind you it was lovely weather in Devon and I even braved it and went out and sat on one of the beaches in my new one piece swimsuit. That's a first for me, although I didn't venture into the sea this time
One key thing is don't try to be over feminine. Just be natural. Keep you head up when walking and don't forget to smile to people passing you by. You will be surprised at how many people smile back and then don't give you a second glance! Best of luck.
Hope this all helps
Judith Lynn
No, you most certainly do not have to give up anything nor be ultra-feminine as a trans woman. Be yourself. Just for validation, here's me after this past Sunday at the motocross track. ;)
Me all dirty, no bra, in a t-shirt:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkSwyIsG.png&hash=7f2c1bfca4b671a37794ad7aeef0d2d7c6271c16)
Mah babies:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4IIiHsf.jpg&hash=174c1b9a5a2f05758540a833bad9c674e4350ad8)
Have fun! Live life.
Quote from: katiej on June 06, 2016, 10:56:56 AM
Come to Seattle...I'll make it happen ;D
Funny you should say that. I'm house sitting for some people in Albuquerque that happen to be in Seattle for medical reasons. They may be moving back there for good and I might have to drive a moving van up there for them.
If that happens I'll drop you a line.
Take care.
Quote from: katiej on June 05, 2016, 05:45:15 PM
Of course it was single malt. Laphraoig 10 :)
The rough stuff. :) I like 18 year old Macallan. It's getting expensive though and I've slummed down to Aberlour 12.
Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA
I haven't transitioned yet, but I think how I would dress depends on the activities. I tend to have better taste en femme and would dress a little better for work. Sometimes I'm surprised what some women wear to work or school ( I work in a university). Its 110 out and they wear jeans, meanwhile I'd love to wear a cool dress or skirt. On the other hand if I am riding my motorcycle or working in the yard, I'll dress appropriately. Sometimes I've heard middle aged women talk about having to wear dresses and skirts as if they were men. I think for some that grew up having to wear feminine attire reject it now because they have choices. I still don't understand pants in hot weather. :)
Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA
Quote from: Gertrude on June 08, 2016, 04:50:46 PM
I haven't transitioned yet, but I think how I would dress depends on the activities. I tend to have better taste en femme and would dress a little better for work. Sometimes I'm surprised what some women wear to work or school ( I work in a university). Its 110 out and they wear jeans, meanwhile I'd love to wear a cool dress or skirt. On the other hand if I am riding my motorcycle or working in the yard, I'll dress appropriately. Sometimes I've heard middle aged women talk about having to wear dresses and skirts as if they were men. I think for some that grew up having to wear feminine attire reject it now because they have choices. I still don't understand pants in hot weather. :)
Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA
well a lot of it has to do with most women's clothing being made to objectify/sexualize women when men's clothing generally allows men a lot more leeway to take on a non-sexual role, when women are seen as 'slobs' for doing the same. sometimes it feels flattering and powerful to have all the boys looking at you, and other times, it feels creepy and demeaning. ultimately if they could keep themselves under control i think a lot of people would feel safer wearing dresses.
Quote from: kiteless on June 08, 2016, 06:02:40 PM
well a lot of it has to do with most women's clothing being made to objectify/sexualize women when men's clothing generally allows men a lot more leeway to take on a non-sexual role, when women are seen as 'slobs' for doing the same. sometimes it feels flattering and powerful to have all the boys looking at you, and other times, it feels creepy and demeaning. ultimately if they could keep themselves under control i think a lot of people would feel safer wearing dresses.
I never feel or felt sexualized in a dress, but I don't wear anything racy or short. I think though that women's clothes in general are lighter fabric than men's clothes. I can't believe the difference in weight at times. That said, I never used the term slob, but I do think that with some jobs, women should dress better. This has nothing to do with sexualization at all. I think either sex can think a certain look is attractive. My wife loves it if I wear a suit and tie, but I'd rather wear a skirt suit or sheath with jacket. :) Can't win.
I am over 50 and the students I teach at the university are at the ages of my two sons.
I wear miniskirt everyday. As sneakers (athletic shoes) are now in trend, I also wear them like college girls.
Students tend to be more friendly to me, saying to me easily.
Few women at my age wear like me, or even they no longer care about their appearance. Even most women who are 20 years younger than me wear drab clothes. When I am with them, men say like "your girls should take care of fashion and wear like (me)!". One guy compared those women to tucks while me to a brand-new sports car.
A few weeks ago, students gave the department uniform t-shirt to me as gift:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7676/26952273154_e2474b0727_b.jpg)
And, I wear bikini, too. Even most girls here at their 20s do not dare to wear it in the beach.
barbie~~
Quote from: barbie on June 09, 2016, 09:31:01 AM
When I am with them, men say like "your girls should take care of fashion and wear like (me)!". One guy compared those women to tucks while me to a brand-new sports car.
Well you have a great figure.
These men on the other hand, should mind their own business about what young girls are wearing. That's the last thing anyone needs is the opposite sex pointing out where they're going wrong and comparing them to other women To Their Faces. That's unbelievably rude. Unless they look like a young Brad Pitt, I'd be telling them where to go - whether or not I was on the flattering end of their approval.
Quote from: barbie on June 09, 2016, 09:31:01 AM
I am over 50 and the students I teach at the university are at the ages of my two sons.
I wear miniskirt everyday. As sneakers (athletic shoes) are now in trend, I also wear them like college girls.
Students tend to be more friendly to me, saying to me easily.
Few women at my age wear like me, or even they no longer care about their appearance. Even most women who are 20 years younger than me wear drab clothes. When I am with them, men say like "your girls should take care of fashion and wear like (me)!". One guy compared those women to tucks while me to a brand-new sports car.
A few weeks ago, students gave the department uniform t-shirt to me as gift:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7676/26952273154_e2474b0727_b.jpg)
And, I wear bikini, too. Even most girls here at their 20s do not dare to wear it in the beach.
barbie~~
I tend to be more conservative in dress and for good reason: I'm not skinny like you. :)
Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA
Quote from: alex82 on June 09, 2016, 09:53:08 AM
Well you have a great figure.
These men on the other hand, should mind their own business about what young girls are wearing. That's the last thing anyone needs is the opposite sex pointing out where they're going wrong and comparing them to other women To Their Faces. That's unbelievably rude.
Yes. That is true. But there was some subtle difference. It could sound like a joke, as I am not a cis-woman. Comparing a cis-woman with another cis-woman could be very rude. I was also surprised on that comment, but those women also surprisingly took it so easily. Later, some of them said to me that they will wear a nice outfit when they meet me again, and they did. They also give me a lot of advice on makeup and fashion.
barbie~~
Quote from: Gertrude on June 09, 2016, 01:24:31 PM
I tend to be more conservative in dress and for good reason: I'm not skinny like you. :)
Yes. That is a part of the reason. Both young and aged women say that they envy my body figure, asking the secret method. I always reply: running outdoors.
barbie~~
Quote from: barbie on June 09, 2016, 05:25:45 PM
Yes. That is a part of the reason. Both young and aged women say that they envy my body figure, asking the secret method. I always reply: running outdoors.
barbie~~
That won't help me. I am just too big to begin with. ;)
Quote from: Gertrude on June 09, 2016, 09:12:39 PM
That won't help me. I am just too big to begin with. ;)
You may start by walking or biking!
I sometimes walk for more than 2 hours.
barbie~~
Quote from: barbie on June 10, 2016, 03:04:50 AM
You may start by walking or biking!
I sometimes walk for more than 2 hours.
barbie~~
Sure, but I am 6'5, size 14 men's shoes. I'll never be dainty with a 54" chest and 18" arms and that's without working out.
Quote from: Stevie on June 05, 2016, 11:55:38 PM
I see it as dropping the facade of trying to act like a guy, I had to suppress my femininity when I was growing up. I had four older brothers to beat it out of me, two of them were so abusive that I have had bones broken and been stabbed by one of them. My mother was an emergency room nurse and she sewed up the stab wound so my brother wouldn't get in trouble.
I had suppressed and concealed my femininity during the 40 years after my birth, and I have strong feeling and motivation to express it hurriedly. I could not and will not have much time like other women: probably 10 years at most, but I am not quite sure. Compensation for the lost 40 years. This may explain why I tend to wear boldly compared with other ordinary women. Both men and women say that they would prefer my wearing longer skirts.
barbie~~
Quote from: Gertrude on June 10, 2016, 07:57:45 AM
Sure, but I am 6'5, size 14 men's shoes. I'll never be dainty with a 54" chest and 18" arms and that's without working out.
I sometimes wear 5 inch heels and I know how many people, both men and I women, I attract. Especially men do not like such tall women: I had a bad experience. Women tend to like my height. One young woman once approached me, asking me whether I am a transgender person: there was a "transgender bar" near by.
barbie~~
Quote from: April_TO on June 06, 2016, 07:48:10 AM
Thanks Cindi for pointing this out. I have seen some not all that would wear fish net at 10 am.
I understand if you wish you to be noticed, but I don't see a lot of women wearing fish nets especially during that time of day.
I say learn how to dress by observing women at around your age level and see if you can adapt a thing or two.
I do wear fish net at 10 am, and even at 6 am.
I love fishnet!
But not so many people watched me.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7519/27487236852_5632ff2c8e_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7502/27586088235_be0a4ab338_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7447/27586085885_c8f677256a_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7304/27551927086_cf0fa98585_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7414/27586076035_b7a57e4ea2_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7102/27487223352_ff04a879ed_b.jpg)
barbie~~
Quote from: Gertrude on June 08, 2016, 04:40:04 PM
The rough stuff. :) I like 18 year old Macallan. It's getting expensive though and I've slummed down to Aberlour 12.
Someone should start a scotch thread. My favourite is Talisker but I wouldn't turn down Laphroaig or Macallan.
Paige :)
Quote from: Paige on June 10, 2016, 02:40:48 PM
Someone should start a scotch thread. My favourite is Talisker but I wouldn't turn down Laphroaig or Macallan.
Paige :)
I've always wanted to try talisker, but haven't had the chance.
Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA
Quote from: Gertrude on June 10, 2016, 06:16:27 PM
Sent from my iPhone, inspected and certified by the NSA
Uh-oh. Do they really inspect and certify?
barbie~~
Quote from: barbie on June 10, 2016, 07:25:41 PM
Uh-oh. Do they really inspect and certify?
barbie~~
It's sort of a joke, but every packet of data and voice on the internet/publicly switched network in the US goes through NSA inspection. I just assume it's certified because I haven't had a visit from them.
Oh, yes. Many government agencies and businesses constantly scan the entire Internet for text and images of interest to them. Facial recognition software has become so sophisticated they can quickly draw up every photo of a person ever posted on the web or sent in an email (included things that have been deleted). Many systems form personality profile databases on as many people as they can can, drawing on everything we post on the web. It's actually very easy for them to form a very clear picture of who a person is that way. And if you want to write something privately, you have to do it on paper.