Susan's Place Transgender Resources

HI all

I've identified as non binary for some time now and although I'm ok with this as is my family, how do I fit being non binary in cis gendered rigid society. I'm physically M but present as a mix F/M but often I struggle almost daily as to how I can be non binary in a society that judges on how you look, I feel embarrassed to be how I want to be although I know there's nothing wrong with being non binary - how can I overcome these issues in which I'm sure lots of other non binary people have also.

I'm still trying to find the answer to this as well. I have huge respect and admiration for nbs who can go out wearing skirts and makeup; but I'd still be far too self conscious and afraid to do so now. Although I've bought a skirt just to quiet down the nb dysphoria I have. So far I've taken baby steps by growing my hair out longer and getting my ears pierced; which has helped a lot in giving me a outlet and not to feel trapped in the male box. I feel I can never come out as nb because I don't want to be seen as the trans one or deal with no one being able to understand it. But I've found an nb group and though I've only been once it's helped me to feel more confident. Maybe you could try finding a trans support group in your area?

Yeah; sorry I don't have any advice; just know you're not alone in dealing with the nb minefield.

Thanks Elis

On the whole I usually have no issues presenting as nb in public bar the odd comment, I usually wear leggings with either a shirt and short tight fitting skirt to cover the middle or a jumper dress and in hot weather a plain kilt/ knee length skirt and t shirt.
The issue I do have is mainly my self conscious portrayal to other people and the mental barrier that brings the daily struggle of deciding if it feels right or wrong. Its like part of me is trying to reject nb but the other is saying just embrace it and take the rough with the smooth.

I'm an AMAB non-binary.  It's a little confusing for me, because in some ways I'm like a binary trans woman, but in other ways -- in my heart -- I am not.

My presentation (or at least how I'd like to present) is basically feminine, and there are times when I wish I could be a woman, but I just plain don't feel like I'm one.  I know I'm not a man (at least, not inside -- my body keeps insisting that I'm male), but trying to imagine that I'm really female inside seems as much a lie as my 60 years of trying to imagine I was male.

I really notice this when I talk to binary trans people, especially binary trans women (who I resemble.)  They seem to have this longing to feel like women and to believe they are women.  Not to knock those who feel it, but the phrase "trans women are women" just doesn't work for me.  But I do want to be accepted by women as a woman; not because it would prove anything about me, but because I feel more at home among women than I ever did among men and I'd like to be accepted and not seen as some kind of interloper or intruder.

And when I'm feeling this "not really a woman" way, I often wonder whether it's just some part of me that wants me to keep feeling like I don't belong anywhere and that I'm only conditionally accepted, like I have all my life.  Maybe my non-binariness (and my transness) are just mental illnesses that I should be trying to cure.

But when I think of "curing" these mental aberrations, I think of the 11-year-old child I sometimes feel crying inside of me, and "curing" me always feels like I'd be drowning that child, the way people used to drown kittens.

For me, I don't think of fitting in really, just being confident in who I am.

It takes time to feel comfortable presenting differently than the norm. I usually present somewhat mixed with women's jeans or shorts, a guy's shirt, long hair, makeup, and beard stubble.

I feel comfortable presenting this way, though it took some time to feel this way, and to find out what I feel most comfortable and look good wearing. I think it's how I look best, even if I'm usually mentally a bit closer to binary MtF than the androgynous male I tend to come off as, I'm still genderfluid and do not want to fully transition. I'd rather look good with what I have than try to be as feminine as possible, which doesn't look as good, and isn't quite what I am.

Welcome to Susan's Place Non binary. I see that you have already joined in and are becoming comfortable with the other members. You are free to post anywhere you are comfortable on the site so don't feel restricted to this area. If there is anything I can help you with, let me know.

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I'm with Elis on this one.  You need to make more nonbinary friends.  Either by finding nonbinary friends, or by turning your friends nonbinary.  Uh.  No, not the latter one; that's just a joke.

How do nonbinary friends help with the outside world?  They don't.  They don't do a dang thing for the outside world.  People will continue to be ignorant, misguided, and judgmental.  But you can take a break from it all with friends.

Think about it this way.  Most guys go crazy if they're left alone in a room full of women.  Same with women surrounded by men.  It should come as no surprise that we need nonbinary friends!  We're constantly surrounded by people with wildly different gender experiences from ours, and their perception of "normal" can feel quite oppressive -- just as binary folk experience in the company of their opposites.

Like-minded friends (online and off), social groups (again, online forums and offline meetings), and eventually and hopefully, a workplace that is trans- and queer- friendly. Find some role models/famous figures that come close to the look, style, and overall demeanor that you would want to project; see if there's anything you can incorporate into your world.

Thanks to the people for your advice, I think it will help to try and get involved with a local LGBT organization so I can associate with like minded people and hopefully become more comfortable with who I am in public surroundings.

I too am trying to find a balance, while watching for when I feel judged/self-conscious.  I finally have my hair to what I consider the start of long!  I usually wear girl jeans/shorts, boy shirts, make-up, earrings...but in especially gendered places (the auto supply or hardware store) I often feel the gazes, both real and imagined. 

Just today I went to my therapy appointment and wore a male polo shirt with my girl shorts, even though I wanted to wear a boyfriend tee.  I needed to get gas and stop into the hardware store on the way home, and my fears made me not wear what I wanted.

I came home and put on a dress!   ;D

Nice thread.

I work as a male androgyne.  Long nails, rings, gorgeous trans stoned ring, longer hair, boobs too big for a cis male.   Full mtf transition no op body.

Guy clothes.

I just stand firm.  But out in a skirt i go stealth female.

Its hard dealing with society.    I just want to be me.

And i am sick of pleasing narrow minded cis people.

Trinity Satin Joy

I think that it is difficult to fit into society as non binary in general, unless you're someone who can just let any trouble bounce off you, if that makes any sense.

I find that I often don't present how I want to, because as an AFAB non binary person, my primary concern in public is to not be seen as female. So I have a tendency to present more masculine than I would actually like to. This is especially the case if I'm at work, since I have to continually deal with strangers and can't avoid people at all. I have both 'mens' and 'womens' clothing, but sadly I rarely feel comfortable wearing a lot of the 'womens' clothes, because of my fear of being seen as a woman. I've been thinking a lot about a wonderful maxi skirt I own, and wondering when I will next gain the courage to wear it, and what I'll actually pair it with (perhaps a button down shirt?)

Hopefully one day I will begin to gain the courage to present myself as I truly am, rather than presenting as more masculine than I am, just because being seen as male is slightly less uncomfortable than being seen as female.

Quote from: Non binary person on June 16, 2016, 11:14:34 AM
HI all

I've identified as non binary for some time now and although I'm ok with this as is my family, how do I fit being non binary in cis gendered rigid society. I'm physically M but present as a mix F/M but often I struggle almost daily as to how I can be non binary in a society that judges on how you look, I feel embarrassed to be how I want to be although I know there's nothing wrong with being non binary - how can I overcome these issues in which I'm sure lots of other non binary people have also.

If you associate with sincere people you will get sincere answers If you consult with bigoted blowhards you will get grief. Seek out a local groups of people of the same concerns as you. 

The way I look at it is that I had had enough of 'trying to fit in'.  I spent far too long presenting and seeking to understand myself as a binary alpha male who just needed to try harder.   However once I understood that I was trans and that my challenge was to understand, accept and express myself as authentically as possible I really had no option but to change how I expressed myself, my work, etc.  My therapist and a great support group helped me on my journey and I hope that you have access to both.

I think that presenting NB can be challenging, particularly at work where there may be a more formal, binary gendered, dress code.  However even here there are options and even small expressions can make a difference until you are in a more NB friendly environment.  This may involve changing employment (location, sector, business); it may involve you deliberately projecting a more andro presentation (here it could be simply permanent beard removal; body hair removal; manicured nails; longer hair; jewellery etc); or it may require the help of an endo to find a hormone balance which deals with the discomfort or dysphoria, facilitates desirable physical change etc.

I thought that I had zero options but thanks to the above I find myself in a great place.  Perhaps my major complication has been my marriage because my wife has travelled with me as I have made these changes relying on my confidence that I was heading towards a non binary/andro outcome and expression rather than a binary transition.

safe travels

Aisla

It can be, and often is, difficult to fit in as a nonbinary person. It's an unfortunate truth that we have to cope with. The best advice I have is to seek out a supportive community. If you live anywhere near a decent-sized city, there is usually an lgbt 'scene' that you can get involved in. Support groups are an option, too. Making friends with other trans people, especially nonbinary people, could help boost your confidence.

Regarding local support groups: how are your experiences? I have only tried online ones, and I'm a bit concerned because there seems to be no understanding for non-binary people, too. I found myself in arguing against their opinions etc.; nothing that would help me or someone else, so I have refrained from further tries. I'd really like to know other nb people, but I don't know where to start. Maybe there are no ones in my area.

As an androgynous guy I have this difficulty as well, especially because when in doubt people look at the biology of the body to make up their minds.

I have to deal with a lot of internal bad mood because of this: I feel very well about my identity and presentation, and I don't even want to undergo medical treatments for my female anatomy, but I hate that feeling of guilt/anguish in expressing myself freely.

I have dysphoria sometimes and I have no one that understands that I want non medical ways to deal with it. If anything I feel scared of talking about it because I don't want to be pushed into a medical transition, and then I feel angry because it seems that the other option is to do absolutely nothing.

On the other hand I am definitely a man, a "he". If I had a Y chromosome I would be able to express my effeminacy without being misgendered. The weird thing is that I don't have aspects of me that are traditionally feminine, I am very masculine in my taste and presentation. But there are things like long hair, dancing, a passion for elaborate textiles and thermal baths... I want to live happy, not at war with myself in the name of "what they will think". I'm certainly sick of policing myself for fear of getting dispossessed of whatever little of my claim to masculinity society is willing to concede to.

I have to admit I've never gone to a support group. I find that supportiv community in general tends to help, but I can see why a support group could be difficult if all of the other people in it are binary. It's a tough situation, basically being a separate minority within a minority group within yet another minority group(nonbinary -> transgender -> lgbt). It makes it harder to find support.
It's not easy, but I think it's important to avoid doing it alone. Even online support is better than none.

Quote from: Non binary person on June 16, 2016, 11:14:34 AM
I feel embarrassed to be how I want to be although I know there's nothing wrong with being non binary

Of course there's nothing wrong with being nb! Be proud of your own unique identity. :) There's nothing to be embarrassed about. It's not your duty to make everyone else comfortable.

I'm in an interesting position with this, because I was raised pretty conservatively Christian, and came out as a gay man about 8 years ago.  I became somewhat ferocious in my newly revealed identity, and kinda made it my duty to throw it in the world's face.  Part of this was because I was frighteningly self-conscious and hated myself a lot of the time.  I needed to project myself in such a loud way to balance out the inner shame and loathing.

I've come to a much better view of myself, and no longer feel the need to be something brash.  Likewise, my self consciousness has decreased to the point that I can present more as the way I'd like to, or at least to the extent I currently understand myself.  I'm starting to learn more about my gender identity, and being a "gay man" no longer applies the way it did years ago.  I've been slowly graduating in how much "feminine" element I allow in my public display.  I wear makeup (rarely leave home without it on), women's clothes, and even wore heels to work last week.  I work at a clothing store, so it's easier to play with/test the boundaries.  I do still have moments of "uh oh," like when I have cash in my pocket but use my credit card to get gas so as to avoid a potential awkward situation with the cashier.  It could be completely in my head, but the more I get comfortable with myself and learn more about who I am, the easier it will be to publicly show my feminine tendencies. 

In summation, my presentation is based on how I feel about myself, and not on how I think or fear other people will see me.  I've been there, and it's so not fun.  I do hope you can come to a point that strangers' negative stares or mutterings don't matter.  Besides, maybe you got to give them a good story for their next dinner party  :D

Quote from: Sandboxed on September 09, 2016, 09:34:23 AM
Of course there's nothing wrong with being nb! Be proud of your own unique identity. :) There's nothing to be embarrassed about. It's not your duty to make everyone else comfortable.

I know all of this is true and tell myself all the time. Unfortunately the feelings of embarrassment and shame remain, so it is about how we feel and not about pleasing others. The phrase "internalised transphobia" is used around here and for me it is the best explanation for the disconnect between what I know and how I feel. So in the end I think we need to conquer our own feelings about ourselves and I suspect the relevance of other people's opinions would fall into perspective. i.e. they wouldn't matter at all.

Hugs

B

I too come from an entirely cis family, of Irish Catholic background. While not practicing, and holding some fairly liberal theological positions, my mum's still a bit awkward on LGBT rights. While she accepts being LGBT as normal, she refuses to accept my bisexuality, calling it a "phase", and no doubt would call my being genderqueer a phase (despite me being in my mid-20s). She does know about my penchant for dressing in masculine clothes and says she doesn't like it, but she's not stopping me from doing it. And she's mostly stopped recently. I think it has a lot to do with my brother's girlfriend who, despite identifying primarily as female, also considers herself genderfluid. My brother recently brought up "Mx. E could be genderfluid" when my mum decided to ask why I like both masculine and feminine stuff when she thinks it's impossible. And you know what, he's kinda right. So I hope my family will become more accepting over time, particularly as I've ramped up the whole androgynous thing recently.

I'm having difficulty with this as well. Partly because I am constantly doubting myself that I actually am non-binary and that I'm actually just ornery. But i feel like a big part of it is that the binary is so entrenched in society. I'm not seen as a genderqueer person, I'm a girl wearing boy's clothes. A butch dyke, maybe (bless you OITNB for Big Boo). It would be easier if I was a girl wearing boy's clothing. The prospect of having to explain, over and over and over, how your core self is about sixty degrees off 'normal' just feels exhausting and painful.

Quote from: RedfootDaddy on October 25, 2016, 04:41:25 PM
The prospect of having to explain, over and over and over, how your core self is about sixty degrees off 'normal' just feels exhausting and painful.

It is exhausting and painful... but at least for me, there's no alternative. I won't hide or redefine myself just to please other people. And there are supportive people, too. :)

Quote from: Non binary person on June 16, 2016, 11:14:34 AM
HI all

I've identified as non binary for some time now and although I'm ok with this as is my family, how do I fit being non binary in cis gendered rigid society. I'm physically M but present as a mix F/M but often I struggle almost daily as to how I can be non binary in a society that judges on how you look, I feel embarrassed to be how I want to be although I know there's nothing wrong with being non binary - how can I overcome these issues in which I'm sure lots of other non binary people have also.

I started saying i was FTM because i got tired of having to explain i had a Agender side and then having to explain i'm also a guy it flipped peoples minds to much so in the end i picked to explain one way although that doesn't change my sides it just helps me be me in a simpler way. I'm not saying "Pick one" or go the road i went, no everyone's different.
I just happened to live in a horrible area and had a very hard time. Although what you could do use go on amazon and find a necklace that states your pornouns and gender i thought about it once myself but never bought it. Just be ready for the questions but it should be fine :)

Just catching up with this interesting thread and the intrigue it inspires.  Having lived my entire life as a minority person I had hoped the LGBTQ world would be a welcoming place.  Sadly we can discriminate from any place, it seems, and someone always seems to make a status point of being more gay, lesbian or trans than others.  As a Bi/queer and non binary transgender person it seemed our lot would continue to be marginal inclusion.

Things are changing!  The biggest survey of self identified transgender people, 27+ thousand responders, is a game changer.  Over a third of us self identify as non binary!  Especially among young people this rejection of a two box world is happening now.  It is terrific fun for me to welcome new NB people here and IRL.  We meet NB AFAB and AMAB people who simply do it their own way and make no apologies.  A new friend is a trans guy on T who occasionally rocks a skirt and lipstick and why the hell not??  This is the beating heart of diversity and we are rolling on, no permission required!

I feel more female most of the time but my life also includes decades of living as a man.  Initially I tried working the transition process to identify as closely as possible to female.  I found too often that i was feeling a reverse sense of fake when I was trying too hard to "act like a woman" and allowing the external world to value my success or failure.  I learned from that experience and those shared by NB people here that our journey can be most fulfilling, meaningful and successful as we play our own tune and dance to our own rhythms.  I know more and more people who share these songs.