I was at my second support group meeting and at the meeting there was a non-binary individual. Some topics came up during the meeting that I found interesting. Seeing as I have a difficult time conveying my thoughts with speech, I kept my mouth shut and just listened (I didn't want to say something stupid). But I do have some thoughts and questions I'd like to pose here. A fair warning, I'm not very good at explaining myself. I hope I don't offend anyone with anything I might type as that's not my intention. I'm just trying to learn.
My brain prefers to think in black and white terms. It doesn't do well with gray areas. If I pass someone on the street, my brain will assign someone either an M or an F. Even if the answer isn't obvious, it will still just pick either M or F. No other letters would naturally enter my mind. So if I interact with someone that doesn't identify as M or F, I have to stop myself and override its normal way of thinking and force another letter into the slot. And I would probably have to do this every single time even if I encountered that person over and over again. It's not trying to be insensitive, it just doesn't work that way.
I was born male. I've wanted a female body since I can remember. But I've largely stayed out of the loop when it comes to the intricacies of gender identity. As much as I want a female body (no doubts), my mind feels like it leans more male than female. In a perfect world, I would be reborn as tomboyish and would act as masculine or feminine and I felt like at the time. But that involves gray areas, and the more I think about that, the more my brain crashes to a blue screen.
The non-binary individual at my meeting would have been assigned an F by my brain had they not introduced themselves as preferring they/them (among other pronouns I never heard of before). I understand that people's gender expression can be anywhere along a spectrum between male and female. But there are only two biological sexes (I know that sometimes genetics can get intertwined). My brain assigns a gender based on what sex it perceives a person is closest to being and not what expression that person is putting forth. Is that bad? If someone still looks masculine but is obviously trying to pass as a woman, my mind has no problem assigning them an F (it helps that I share this dilemma). But in a world where anyone can assign themselves any letter among an infinitely large spectrum, my mind has trouble processing this.
A few points were brought up at my meeting. I have a couple of questions to anyone that identifies as non-binary if they'd like to answer them.
1. Do you reject all instances of he/she pronouns being used on yourself?
2. Do you feel everyone should always ask anyone they meet their preferred pronouns before using any pronouns (even if they seem "normal")?
I most certainly always try to use the preferred pronouns of the people I'm meeting but when it comes to non-binary I can guarantee at some point I'm going to mess up and use a he/she. Maybe I should just ask people to *twap* me on the head right away in anticipation of my coming errors.
Not exactly answering your question but when I first came to the site, the non binary was new to me. Had I passed somebody on the street who I was unsure about gender, I would avoid pronouns and allow the person to take the lead. I do much the same on the site when I post with a new member that is still in the process of deciding. Most often, if I need to reference them, I just use the screen name.
I think the Non binary are somewhat tolerant like the rest of us and will allow an innocent mistake but like us would be upset with an intentional misgendering. As for messing up. I constantly review my post before making them to be sure I didn't get the gendering wrong. I don't always get it right so proof reading is important.
Quote from: Semira on July 03, 2016, 02:52:21 PM
1. Do you reject all instances of he/she pronouns being used on yourself?
I identify as non-binary. At this point, I'm using "she" (see my info on the sidebar) everywhere I'm out, although I screw it up sometimes myself.
There's no general rule. Keep in mind, "non-binary" doesn't tell you what someone is, it only tells you what they
aren't. So almost anything you might say about non-binary folks is likely to apply to some and not others. And most of us are still trying to figure ourselves out, too. We just know that the Standard Trans Narratives don't work for us.
Quote from: Semira on July 03, 2016, 02:52:21 PM
2. Do you feel everyone should always ask anyone they meet their preferred pronouns before using any pronouns (even if they seem "normal")?
In trans circles, yes. It's becoming quite common now in trans and trans-friendly communities for people to specify (by name tag or button) what their preferred pronouns are, or for people to introduce themselves with their pronouns, e.g., "I'm Zygote and I use they/them."
BTW, I'd avoid the word "normal," even in scare quotes. It's a sore point, even among binary trans people.
Quote from: Semira on July 03, 2016, 02:52:21 PM
I most certainly always try to use the preferred pronouns of the people I'm meeting but when it comes to non-binary I can guarantee at some point I'm going to mess up and use a he/she.
Just like binary trans people, we assume people are going to make mistakes. What will get you a "thwack" (or at least a side-eye) is if you have been told but continue to consistently use the wrong pronouns, as that comes across as intentional. (And yes, intentionally misgendering trans people is a thing in LGBT communities.)
I believe you mentioned two binary biological sexes.
Doesnt work like that with me.
I am a combination of male and female that resulted in androgyne. Full female transition, no ops, no electrolisis but a lot of epilating. A very interesting and attractive gender.
A shade of grey.
I use sh'e.
They is fine too.
I am not he. But if i am percieved he, i dont say anything. I do feel like someone is petting me backwards.
Sh'e. H'er.
Zie. Hir. For others...
We are not in the binary.
We just are ourselves.
:)
After a few decades of living on this rock as a male, it is hard not to have a "male" brain or thoughts. That is how you were socialized, steeped in, the world you moved around in. For me many aspects of that I find joy in, such as my career. It is a big part of what defines me as me. And, it is a typically "Male" career, engineering.
Yet deep down inside I know I've always wanted to be a girl. Still wish I am. I can (almost) be if I needed to. No matter how I present, there will always be many other aspects that are "male" as well as the female ones.
When I came to the point in my life that I needed to take on the trans-beast... for real, I knew there was one great task before me. That was to figure out how to get these two seemingly disparate aspects of myself to live peacefully within one healthy and hopefully happy person, whoever that may be. Seven years later I'm almost there.
The reality of my life today is I am "Non-Binary". I present and live primarily as a male. I achieved my lifelong dream of being seen as and accepted as a woman. If I needed to, I will go full-time living as a female. In a perfect world I would already be living as a female, maybe. Fortunately today I do not need to. But there are days......
Life is full of compromises. There are many competing needs and wants that have to be balanced. Or risk making a hard fall you are unprepared for. I dance barefooted on this Sword of Damocles hoping not to bleed to death.
If I were living full-time as female or an out public TG person (including non-binary) then I'd likely be insistent upon preferred pronouns. (see #2 below) I don't insist it from my wife but she does know what I prefer when presenting as female what I'd prefer. These days in male mode I get some of both.
"People should ask" is an arbitrary rule made up by..... people who do not want to be a bit more assertive. (bite tongue :P ) If it is important to you, you will tell others. Even more important if you do not present clearly and unambiguously as one gender construct or another. People are not mindreaders and will run with their first impressions. Their reality is not necessarily yours
We've seen this line of thought before.
"I don't understand your identity, prove it to me. Make me understand."
No one has to satisfy another's desire for them to fit in a box. As people it is our obligation to accept others for what they are, without question. Accepting someone is critical, understanding them is about as important as a pisshole in a snowbank.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Asche on July 03, 2016, 06:30:38 PM
There's no general rule. Keep in mind, "non-binary" doesn't tell you what someone is, it only tells you what they aren't.
...
In trans circles, yes.
...
BTW, I'd avoid the word "normal," even in scare quotes. It's a sore point, even among binary trans people.
Thank you for answering the questions. That first part is a really good quote and explains quite a bit.
My second question came about because someone at my meeting implied that they always ask for pronouns even outside of trans circles. I was curious how common that was. And yes, "normal" was a poor choice of words on my part. I should know better.
Quote from: JoanneB on July 04, 2016, 05:09:20 PM
After a few decades of living on this rock as a male, it is hard not to have a "male" brain or thoughts. That is how you were socialized, steeped in, the world you moved around in.
That probably describes me as well. I've interacted and been around males throughout my life far more than females. As I've started to explore the female side of me I've discovered more interests that would typically be associated with women.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 04, 2016, 05:28:35 PM
"I don't understand your identity, prove it to me. Make me understand."
No one has to satisfy another's desire for them to fit in a box.
I apologize if my post came off that way. I'm not trying to put anyone in a specific box. There were just some topics brought up at my meeting that I was too afraid to ask questions about in person in the fear I'd say the wrong thing. It's far easier for me to type than it is to speak, although I can still say stupid things via typing. Curiosity gets the better of me sometimes.
Quote from: JoanneB on July 04, 2016, 05:09:20 PM
After a few decades of living on this rock as a male, it is hard not to have a "male" brain or thoughts. That is how you were socialized, steeped in, the world you moved around in. For me many aspects of that I find joy in, such as my career. It is a big part of what defines me as me. And, it is a typically "Male" career, engineering.
Yet deep down inside I know I've always wanted to be a girl. Still wish I am. I can (almost) be if I needed to. No matter how I present, there will always be many other aspects that are "male" as well as the female ones.
When I came to the point in my life that I needed to take on the trans-beast... for real, I knew there was one great task before me. That was to figure out how to get these two seemingly disparate aspects of myself to live peacefully within one healthy and hopefully happy person, whoever that may be. Seven years later I'm almost there.
The reality of my life today is I am "Non-Binary". I present and live primarily as a male. I achieved my lifelong dream of being seen as and accepted as a woman. If I needed to, I will go full-time living as a female. In a perfect world I would already be living as a female, maybe. Fortunately today I do not need to. But there are days......
Life is full of compromises. There are many competing needs and wants that have to be balanced. Or risk making a hard fall you are unprepared for. I dance barefooted on this Sword of Damocles hoping not to bleed to death.
If I were living full-time as female or an out public TG person (including non-binary) then I'd likely be insistent upon preferred pronouns. (see #2 below) I don't insist it from my wife but she does know what I prefer when presenting as female what I'd prefer. These days in male mode I get some of both.
"People should ask" is an arbitrary rule made up by..... people who do not want to be a bit more assertive. (bite tongue :P ) If it is important to you, you will tell others. Even more important if you do not present clearly and unambiguously as one gender construct or another. People are not mindreaders and will run with their first impressions. Their reality is not necessarily yours
Joanne I dont remember you being in this mindspace before. Something change?
Whatever the case I like this post. A lot.
...Sh'e/they...
SJ.
Quote from: Satinjoy on July 06, 2016, 07:59:42 PM
Joanne I dont remember you being in this mindspace before. Something change?
Whatever the case I like this post. A lot.
...Sh'e/they...
SJ.
Survival :(
As a denizen of Realville, my life circumstances and compromises mean that for now, as long as I don't "Need" to go full-time, then I won't.
I also cannot allow myself to keep looking longingly at the "End Game" I always wished for, that I came close to having. I'm far from Cis, never have been. From an early age I knew I was a Trans something. Back then it was transsexual. Technically, I am since I do sport a pair of B cups and FINALLY love living inside my skin.
It is all too easy to say "I'm not Cis, then I must be Trans. Then I must transition". I have been saying it for years and getting all too depressed or worse because I have other commitments, equally if not more important to me. Gender is just a chunk of who I see and know me to be. For now I'll settle on 80% of the pie knowing that I achieved my goal of getting these two great, seemingly disparate, aspects of myself to life in peace inside one whole (mostly) happy and healthy me. If it means using the term "Non-Binary" as a salve, I will. My therapist says don't worry about labels. Easy for her to say.
I live as all genders. Internally its at the same time.
But i am accutely aware that I am very trans, and physically its fully TS. Im praying my A cups go to B, and i must see myself in the mirror.
I work as a construction estimator in NY as a male androgyne, and am known off broadway as a nonbinary transgender woman. Its on my carry letter.
Its a good road, i am hlad you found it, id like to share it with you.
My road is a good one., to being whole, free, and me.
Trinity. Aka Satin Joy
Facebook is Trinity Satin Joy.
There is stuff on it for the good of all trans.
And it certainly doesnt compete with Susans. Its my professional theater page, but personal too. Just another working transgender artist.
☺
In regards to your two questions;
1. Do you reject all instances of he/she pronouns being used on yourself?
This depends what you mean by reject. If you mean do I always correct people who use the wrong pronouns, then no, not always. If you mean, do I always dislike when people use he or she for me: Yes, I always dislike when people use she. People using he isn't so bad but that's more because it doesn't happen to me every single day.
A good way to explain this would be if you imagine instead that when people use 'she' they are hitting my right arm, and when they use 'he' they are hitting my left arm. If people are constantly hitting my right arm almost every day (as is the case with being called 'she') my right arm is going to be pretty painful. If someone then hits my left arm (or calls me 'he') which happens less frequently, that isn't going to hurt as much because there isn't such a build up of pain.
2. Do you feel everyone should always ask anyone they meet their preferred pronouns before using any pronouns (even if they seem "normal")?
In an ideal world, yes. I realise that currently it would seem like a ridiculous concept to a lot of people, but it would make such a positive difference, and not just for trans people. I've been asked my pronouns once. An when it happened, I was genuinely shocked that anyone even thought to ask me.
One thing to consider is that someone's presentation does not always = their gender. Ie, someone may present feminine but actually be a man. There are many non binary people who present in a traditionally 'masculine way' but are not men, or in a traditionally 'feminine' way but are not women. Also, although generally there are only two perceived sexes, there are also intersex people who generally just get assigned one of the 'two' sexes.
On a related note, due to people not asking pronouns and just assuming all the time, I actually wear a badge on my work apron that says 'they/them'. I have had a grand total of two customers use my correct pronouns when referring to me, and one of them was non binary themself. I also have a similar pronoun badge on the bag I usually carry, in an attempt to get strangers in general to refer to me correctly. Unfortunately, I can only assume most people either don't see the badge or don't understand it, so I still get called 'madam' whenever I go to do my food shopping.
In regards to automatically assigning people an m or an f and struggling to see someone as anything other than that; you can approach that the same way you might approach correcting other automatic thoughts. Just as an example, as a child I would think negatively about other people's appearances. In order to stop that, I spent a long time just simply correcting myself every time I had those thoughts. If I had a negative thought about someone's appearance, I would tell myself that it was unfair for me to judge someone by their appearance. Nowadays, I rarely have those thoughts. But, when I do, I simply follow that same procedure to correct my thinking.
It can be the same with assigning an m or an f to someone. If you find yourself thinking that someone is probably an m, try to remind yourself that they could be an f, or even an x. It takes time, of course. I try my best not to gender people I don't know, in general. At work, if I need to talk to a coworker about a customer I won't use 'this lady' or 'this gentleman', I simply use 'the customer' instead. I do find that I often perceive a person's gender by their presentation (whether that means I think they're a man, a woman, or non binary). But I also remind myself often that no one can automatically know someone else's gender.
And as others here have said already, it's fine to struggle with they/them pronouns (or other pronouns) at first, but if it is constant then it is just as bad a misgendering a binary trans person.
Lastly, I think it may have already been mentioned, but just in case, there are many non binary people who do use she or he pronouns. This can be for simplicity, or due to the specific nature of a person's gender, among other reasons.