Hi everyone,
I'll start with the disclaimer that am the pinnacle of privilege that is the straight cis white male. So, I suppose that may be the source of some of my difficulty grasping issues I never have to deal with. I do have a good friend that is a transwoman and I fully support trans rights. However, I feel like I am failing to grasp the ideas I am encountering in my position adjacent to transgender advocacy. Speaking to my friend about my questions has mostly just proven a bit stressful for her. And I am of the opinion she has enough to deal with without having to take on more stress in order to satisfy my curiosities.
Anyway, it's quite possible my confusion has to do with the fact much of the information I've gathered has come from the fairly chaotic source that is the Facebook news feed. But the culprit may also simply be I'm being too pedantic, and need to let go of my desire to learn a comprehensive and consistent understanding of ->-bleeped-<-. But I figured I'd check and see if anyone out there is feeling kind enough to indulge / enlighten me.
I suppose the easiest way to do this would be explain my understanding of gender and then have people point out additional information I should know or otherwise explain mistakes in my thinking.
I am atheist; though one that has a neutral-positive view of religion. Essentially I am of the opinion that if your religion makes you happier, and/or helps you treat others in a better way, more power to you. I currently have a similar view of gender. I might be considered agender, or perhaps universally agender? Anyway, I think that genders are a construct society has created (but not something anchored in any objective truth) that people are usually born into and occasionally people find doesn't fit them and thus switch to another.
Initially I thought that the trans community had a similar view, often seeing the statement made that sex was biological, but gender a creation of society. However I have slowly started to get the impression that the community view gender is an objective biological reality. Mostly in the form of seeing people cite studies showing some differences in MRI scans of transgender brain. This has confused me further, aren't these studies arguing the opposite of the general principle of being trans? That you're the gender you identity with, not the one determined by your biology? Individual brain variance is pretty high. If someone was assigned male at birth, then identified as female, but scans did not indicate a transgender brain would she not really be transgender?
Tip of the iceberg on my confusion I suppose, but thank you all in advance for your thoughts.
The answers to you queries will vary greatly, as there is no single answer that will pertain to every trans man or trans woman.
As for myself, I have felt like I vehicle have been female, before I ever started kindergarten. Other kids would beat me up, and call me a girl on a regular basis. T-blockers and hormones were not available when I was in school, yet other students thought I was on them. Some of this likely had to do with my intersex traits. Becoming a woman was a real life-saver for me.
Others wait til they are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, or even 60s. Some have had great success in living as "the wrong gender". The more you read individual stories, the more perplexed you might get.
I think the scientific consensus is that gender is innately wired into the brain. There are male brains and female brains, and a range in between. For most people, the gender of the brain matches the gender of the genitals. For trans people, it does not.
Being trans is not a choice. One identifies as a particular gender because one's brain is wired that way. Whether an MRI scan can detect the brain wiring is immaterial. Often it can. Maybe sometimes it can't. It doesn't matter.
While gender is innate, gender roles are imposed by society. Society dictates that people whose genitals have a certain configuration (and who are therefore presumed, often incorrectly, to have a certain brain configuration) are required to dress and behave in certain ways. That causes stress for those of us whose brains are not wired in the expected way.
Thank you both for the replies.
Quote from: KathyLauren on August 05, 2016, 02:48:16 PM
I think the scientific consensus is that gender is innately wired into the brain. There are male brains and female brains, and a range in between. For most people, the gender of the brain matches the gender of the genitals. For trans people, it does not.
But wired to do what exactly? Is it a wiring to expect or feel comfortable with a certain set of genitals or body types? That doesn't seem right as best I can tell there are plenty of transgender folks happy to keep the genitals they've got. Is it a wiring towards masculinity or femininity? That doesn't seem right either as there are feminine cis men, masculine cis women. And, from what I've been lead to understand, there are feminine transmen, and masculine transwomen.
I suppose I just feel like I could wrap my head around it better if it was about eroding the notion of gender altogether and letting people act and dress however they feel regardless of whatever kind of body they've got. But that does not appear to be the case.
QuoteHowever I have slowly started to get the impression that the community view gender is an objective biological reality. Mostly in the form of seeing people cite studies showing some differences in MRI scans of transgender brain. This has confused me further, aren't these studies arguing the opposite of the general principle of being trans? That you're the gender you identity with, not the one determined by your biology? Individual brain variance is pretty high. If someone was assigned male at birth, then identified as female, but scans did not indicate a transgender brain would she not really be transgender?
It depends. Which part of your biology determines your gender? The bits between your legs? Some of the interesting bits in your brain? The dimensions of bones in your extremities? The exact chromosomes you have?
I'm one of these confusing people. I know what my gender identity is, but some bits of me don't match that identity. Some do. It is a puzzlement... Not!
In utero, around 10 weeks into my mother's pregnancy and my development, something interesting was introduced. In my particular case it was a chemical called diethylstilbesterone, or DES. This was given to Mom to try and avoid a miscarriage, as the drug was thought to be a good way to block that. Alas, 1950s biochemistry was a bit weak. The drug could and did cross the placental barrier, exposing me to around 500,000 times the level of estrogens that a modern birth control pill might do.
This is important, because it is ultimately the level of 'messenger proteins' that drives gender specific tissue differentiation in a developing fetus, not the presence or absence of a Y chromosome. In a boy, there's typically an X and a Y chromosome. The Y chromosome is a runt, with 6 active genes, including the srY gene. In a girl there's two X chromosomes and no srY gene. When the fetal cells are multiplying, they form a little sphere, then a tube of sorts. In that tube, the inside is exposed to different cell secretions than the outside, and some of those chemicals trigger tissue differentiation. Some cells become the ones that generate eggs or sperm, which one being determined by that srY gene being there or not. These cells also make messenger proteins, like estrogen or testosterone.
The rest of the tissue differentiation is driven by the ratios of these messenger proteins. Depending on which ones are dominant, different genes are activated, and proteins get folded differently to build our parts.
Up til somewhere around the 10th week of my development, I had messenger proteins that signaled the cells to build a boy. Stuff that would become the core of my body, including genetalia, were laid down by the genes so activated. When the DES entered the picture, different genes were activated, and the parts of my body being grown followed a slightly different set of blueprints. Bone lengths in my extremities were laid down a bit different from the boy plans (the 2D:4D ratio in hand finger lengths, for example). Layers of tissue atop my brain stem were built a bit differently (the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis, for example).
The result is a baby that looks mostly like a boy on the outside, but has a secret surprise hidden in the package. This is just one of the many paths that can lead to someone like us. Most of the answer lies within the central nervous system. (The stria terminalis, for example, is involved with basic movement, converting the impulse to move a limb, for example, into the graceful triggering of thousands of muscle impulses. Get the wrong model for your body, and you'll have gross motor skill coordination problems like I did.)
Bear in mind that much of the basic function of the brain, as laid down in fetal development, is part of the limbic system, which is very much a chemically driven system build around messenger proteins, not 'wiring' in the brain. Feed it the wrong chemicals, in ratios it doesn't expect, and there will be trouble. (Exactly my problem. Switch off the testosterone, add estrogen, and suddenly the levels of stress hormones generated by the limbic system dropped drastically.)
The causes appear to be biological, set in the prenatal environment. Do not assume that biology insists on a simple binary answer. That sort of simplification of reality is best left to fools, politicians, and others of their kind.
Some fascinating biological background, thank you. And I can certainly understand how situations like yours, or intersex children from all sorts of sources can occur.
I think the heart of my problem is, I am unable to comprehend a difference between Gender and Gender Roles. Or if I think about it in a different way I could do that, but then can't comprehend a difference between gender and masculinity/femininity.
Not all trans people were subjected to DES while in the womb.
I wasn't, my mother blames herself for not producing a "perfect" baby, and she thinks that there is something she did wrong that caused me to turn out the way I did, like maybe she was overly stressed during pregnancy. Despite me telling her that it was not her fault, and she didn't cause it.
But really, why do you need a deep understanding of the transgender condition?
Maybe it's not something that is understandable.
It is a very wide spectrum indeed, not something easily categorised and figured out. Heck, I don't understand it and I am trans!
It's just part of the natural variation of life.
I doubt any two trans people would describe themselves the same as each other, we all have our reasons, thoughts, hopes, fears, and sometimes physical traits that drive us to be this way. I'm pretty sure my definition of trans will be different to other people's, and what applies to me won't apply to them.
If someone AMAB identifies as female, then they are trans, to some degree, whether or not their brain scan says so. I couldn't give two hoots what my brain scan said, I know who I am.
I don't need a deep understanding. Like I said, this is sort of a indulgence for me. I am just a little overly philosophic and am a bit OCD when it comes to consistency and logic. Doesn't actually terribly matter what's being discussed. It tweaks me whenever I see an argument that doesn't make sense to me, even if it is trying to support a position I agree with. Because of my friendship, I am regularly subjected to a lot of trans ideas and aphorisms. A lot of them don't make sense to me, so rather than silently twitch in mild irritation, or unfollow my friend, I am attempting to wrap my head around the issue.
So I'm here to either prove to my brain that "it's okay, you're right, there is fundamental inconsistency at the heart of transgender gender philosophy." OR, what seems far more likely, that a lot of very smart people who have spent a lot more time thinking about this than I have, understand a concept that I am failing to.
I had to go through a similar process with the whole ".9999.... = 1" thing a few years back.
Hmm, well I wish you well then. But trying to apply consistency and logic and sense to such a broad and often very emotional subject might not get you the answers you seek.
Like Stephen Fry said about depression, "It's like the weather, it just is".
Like others have pointed out way more eloquently then i ever could, there really is no one transgender philosophy. Some science that is well known, some theory and a lot of experience and feedback that provides a whole range of data.
My mom certainly could have taken DES given the time and factors of her pregnancy, but i will never know. That is indeed just one factor though and plenty more transgender folks have been born since that was discontinued.
I don't think it can be "blamed" on one thing. For many it is a simply a choice given what they know and understand about themselves and their needs in life. Transition saved my life i know that much. Gender exists as does the expression thereof, we just deal with it the best way we know how.
There is also the fuzzy concept of predisposition. If your brain is more predisposed to be feminine and the rest of your life does not allow that to occur, it stands to reason that trouble will occur. But not every predisposed person deals with it in the same way. Think of all the many gender dysphoric folks born hundreds of years ago, their understanding and cultures usually did not allow for any significant changes.
OK, let's see if we can give you a little insight. Here's a thought experiment.
From Julia Serano's book "Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity"
Quote
I do believe that it is possible for cissexuals to catch a glimpse of their subconscious sex. When I do presentations on trans issues, I try to accomplish this by asking the audience a question: "If I offered you ten million dollars under the condition that you live as the other sex for the rest of your life, would you take me up on the offer?" While there is often some wiseass in the audience who will say "Yes," the vast majority of people shake their heads to indicate "No."
Think about it, honestly. Would you? Why? What makes you value your gender presentation in relation to your gender identity?
Bear in mind that none of us had that choice, and certainly we did not receive ten million dollars for being the way we are, however that may have come about.
Back to Serano's Question, though. When she asked members of her audience why they would decline the offer...
Quote... they usually get a bit flustered at first, as if they are at a loss for words. Eventually, they end up saying something like, 'Because I just am a woman (or man),' or, 'It just wouldn't be right.'
That quote above says it pretty clearly. It's just something you know innately and gender roles have very little to do with it.
Quote from: CuriousandConfused on August 05, 2016, 03:04:51 PM
Thank you both for the replies.
But wired to do what exactly? Is it a wiring to expect or feel comfortable with a certain set of genitals or body types? That doesn't seem right as best I can tell there are plenty of transgender folks happy to keep the genitals they've got. Is it a wiring towards masculinity or femininity? That doesn't seem right either as there are feminine cis men, masculine cis women. And, from what I've been lead to understand, there are feminine transmen, and masculine transwomen.
I suppose I just feel like I could wrap my head around it better if it was about eroding the notion of gender altogether and letting people act and dress however they feel regardless of whatever kind of body they've got. But that does not appear to be the case.
Quote from: CuriousandConfused on August 05, 2016, 02:24:47 PM
Hi everyone,
I'll start with the disclaimer that am the pinnacle of privilege that is the straight cis white male. So, I suppose that may be the source of some of my difficulty grasping issues I never have to deal with. I do have a good friend that is a transwoman and I fully support trans rights. However, I feel like I am failing to grasp the ideas I am encountering in my position adjacent to transgender advocacy. Speaking to my friend about my questions has mostly just proven a bit stressful for her. And I am of the opinion she has enough to deal with without having to take on more stress in order to satisfy my curiosities.
Anyway, it's quite possible my confusion has to do with the fact much of the information I've gathered has come from the fairly chaotic source that is the Facebook news feed. But the culprit may also simply be I'm being too pedantic, and need to let go of my desire to learn a comprehensive and consistent understanding of ->-bleeped-<-. But I figured I'd check and see if anyone out there is feeling kind enough to indulge / enlighten me.
I suppose the easiest way to do this would be explain my understanding of gender and then have people point out additional information I should know or otherwise explain mistakes in my thinking.
I am atheist; though one that has a neutral-positive view of religion. Essentially I am of the opinion that if your religion makes you happier, and/or helps you treat others in a better way, more power to you. I currently have a similar view of gender. I might be considered agender, or perhaps universally agender? Anyway, I think that genders are a construct society has created (but not something anchored in any objective truth) that people are usually born into and occasionally people find doesn't fit them and thus switch to another.
Initially I thought that the trans community had a similar view, often seeing the statement made that sex was biological, but gender a creation of society. However I have slowly started to get the impression that the community view gender is an objective biological reality. Mostly in the form of seeing people cite studies showing some differences in MRI scans of transgender brain. This has confused me further, aren't these studies arguing the opposite of the general principle of being trans? That you're the gender you identity with, not the one determined by your biology? Individual brain variance is pretty high. If someone was assigned male at birth, then identified as female, but scans did not indicate a transgender brain would she not really be transgender?
Tip of the iceberg on my confusion I suppose, but thank you all in advance for your thoughts.
And you think you are confused try being in my shoes for 65 years. Unfortunately research has been slowed like everything else the Congress is involved with. Part of the problem is Con politicians do not want to reveal this information because that will blow a hole in the Christian. you chose to be this way attitude. And so what if we did. I believe the Declaration says something about Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitution says promote the general welfare. Also like in my case pharmaceutical and medical malpractice in the administration of the Synthetic Female Hormone DES to my mother while I was in utero. The drug prescribed between 1937 and 1971 to prevent miscarriages and stillbirths. First administered around week ten. This massive dose of female hormones said to be between 3000 and 4000 times more than would be needed if DES worked at it's stated purpose. It was cheap to prescribe although there was no proof it worked and because of the side effects was discontinued in the us in 1971 and was still prevalent in foreign countries until the mid eighties. Because of the timing the body has been formed in it's final configuration around week 12. From then on it is brain development and the lack of testosterone that was available during the body formation period, makes estrogen the predominate hormone during brain development. I believe this procedure is the reason for my gender confusion. As to others? I can't say, but reading the comments the prevailing revelation has been realizing a difference from our assigned gender happened at an early age. Most I have seen say they were 5 or 6 when they began expressing their real identity. Most of us crossdressed but this was not necessarily fulfilling and the yearning continued. I would have converted in a heart beat if all the medical care that is available today vs. 1980, also the easy access to information on the internet.
I am pretty sure this is the road I traveled to where I am today. On the verge of beginning HRT. One more thing to note. Most I have read what the people say after beginning HRT is that their emotional state improves and dysphoria is reduced. Myself I can't wait. Something else most of us claim is pent up anger that is dispatched by HRT. This is just one story. I am sure many more are out there. One other point of note were a large nunber of us, prayed, wished, made deals with the Devil for change.
I've read that report but the cohort only consisted of 19males and 19 female subjects
http://www.desaction.org/des-sons/ http://www.desaction.org/des-mothers/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/
Quote from: DawnOday on August 05, 2016, 05:10:08 PM
Something else most of us claim is pent up anger that is dispatched by HRT.
Hi Dawn, You know that's amazing I started E a month ago and that's exactly what I said to my wife last night. The anger seems to be going. Oh and the devil never came through for me either :)
Thanks for that,
Paige :)
I guess I wasn't the only one that got desperate enough to sell my soul. The devil never showed up to make the deal though.
Quote from: Michelle_P on August 05, 2016, 04:43:57 PM
OK, let's see if we can give you a little insight. Here's a thought experiment.
From Julia Serano's book "Whipping Girl: A Transsexual Woman on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity"
Think about it, honestly. Would you? Why? What makes you value your gender presentation in relation to your gender identity?
Bear in mind that none of us had that choice, and certainly we did not receive ten million dollars for being the way we are, however that may have come about.
Back to Serano's Question, though. When she asked members of her audience why they would decline the offer...
That may be my problem, when I imagine that scenario my response is "sure, 10 million is worth putting up with the loss of my male privilege." I have similar thoughts, though a slight increase in reluctance when the offer is made for race.
Maybe this is sort of like trying to describe color to a blind person.
@CuriousandConfused
Gender is "innate" in the same way our fundamental identity is innate, meaning that we identify with and relate to a series of things that exist in reality and we do that because of who we are inside, that part of us that is not shaped by education and environment.
However the definition of gender is entirely cultural. There is no such a thing as a "biological gender". Many societies have more than two genders (called supernumerary genders in social sciences) and many societies do not believe that gender is linked to biological anatomy. What exactly is manly and what is womanly varies greatly from culture to culture, and from an era to another.
Technically speaking gender as a concept exist since the cognitive revolution, that is 80-50.000 years ago. It's part of culture. You simply are who you are, and then you grow up and discover that that thing is called "a men" or "a woman" with names for nuances like "tomboy" or "sissy" that can be more or less indulgent or derogatory. And this is only the example of Western modern culture, you can imagine the variety of options available for humanity at large.
It's a peculiar thing of Western modern culture that there is only two acceptable gender identities and that those are assigned based on physical appearance at birth, it is by no any means a biological fact. Please note that in no other culture having a "matching" body is required, and that the quality of life reported for third gender identities before contact with colonisation was just as high as everyone else.
Quote from: CuriousandConfused on August 05, 2016, 05:34:08 PM
That may be my problem, when I imagine that scenario my response is "sure, 10 million is worth putting up with the loss of my male privilege." I have similar thoughts, though a slight increase in reluctance when the offer is made for race.
Maybe this is sort of like trying to describe color to a blind person.
This is the whole difficulty. Tell me in a way I can understand why you like one food and not another if I like the reverse. Explain to me why you fell in love with somebody who others can't stand. We have pathways in our mind and in your case, they all match up. In our case, our body may look and feel wrong to us or the way society treats us may make us uncomfortable. We are only aware of these differences because we don't match. In your case your role in life has always felt right so you have never had a reason to question it. We tell others the only way to truly understand it is to experience it but it's something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
In my case before treatment, I was one who felt uncomfortable in society. It caused me heavy depression to the point of suicide. I understood the how and why of it but there was no way I could make myself happy in the male role and the best I could do was mask the discomfort for short periods of time. Living as a woman helped a good deal to make me feel comfortable in society and surgery was a graduation ceremony that finished off the process. I now feel as you do comfortable in my life and not questioning my gender identity.
Male privilege has little to do with it as CIS women feel much the way you do about their identity. Sometimes they may say I wish I was a man but that is normally because of some small advantage and not because they are uncomfortable with their body. Transsexuals are only 1 in 600 so we are pretty rare and I am not sure of the numbers for the non binary as they are a bit more difficult to calculate. Most people are happy with their gender identity so this site is one of the few places you will find us in sizable numbers.
Quote from: Dena on August 05, 2016, 07:04:21 PM
This is the whole difficulty. Tell me in a way I can understand why you like one food and not another if I like the reverse. Explain to me why you fell in love with somebody who others can't stand. We have pathways in our mind and in your case, they all match up. In our case, our body may look and feel wrong to us or the way society treats us may make us uncomfortable. We are only aware of these differences because we don't match. In your case your role in life has always felt right so you have never had a reason to question it. We tell others the only way to truly understand it is to experience it but it's something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy
Well, it's not a thing like personal taste, I can understand that. But my failure to understand if I may continue your food analogy is more like this. There are A People, who are only allowed to eat pizza. And B People who only are allowed to eat hamburgers. Now for the most part, A people like their Pizza, and the Bs like their hamburgers. But some people who got classified as As decide they like hamburgers, and want to transition to B people. And vice versa. And good for them. People should be able to eat what they like. Then some assigned A people want to eat hamburgers and still identify as A. Well I guess that's fine, but the important thing seems to me is people get to eat what they want. The titles of A and B could still be used. But why? The important thing was letting people eat what they wanted, the definitions have become vague and confusing and they only existed to divide people and restrict what they could enjoy in the first place.
That is were the problem is. There was no decision to be transgender because I was born that way. I behaved like a girl as far back as I can remember but it took puberty to make me realize what was wrong. What do you think of a male child who prefer to hang around with girls and play their games. Who watches out for the younger children. Who likes nicer clothes, keeps them clean and who can't figure out whats fun about normal male games. We are the square peg in the round hole for a long time. We try to fit in our birth role but it rarely comes naturally. To us it aways seems like we are acting and we are constantly attempting to learn our lines. The only decision for me was to take my life or attempt the transition. Not much of a choice but either option had the promise of ending the pain.
Quote from: CuriousandConfused on August 05, 2016, 02:24:47 PM
Hi everyone,
I'll start with the disclaimer that am the pinnacle of privilege that is the straight cis white male. So, I suppose that may be the source of some of my difficulty grasping issues I never have to deal with. I do have a good friend that is a transwoman and I fully support trans rights. However, I feel like I am failing to grasp the ideas I am encountering in my position adjacent to transgender advocacy. Speaking to my friend about my questions has mostly just proven a bit stressful for her. And I am of the opinion she has enough to deal with without having to take on more stress in order to satisfy my curiosities.
Anyway, it's quite possible my confusion has to do with the fact much of the information I've gathered has come from the fairly chaotic source that is the Facebook news feed. But the culprit may also simply be I'm being too pedantic, and need to let go of my desire to learn a comprehensive and consistent understanding of ->-bleeped-<-. But I figured I'd check and see if anyone out there is feeling kind enough to indulge / enlighten me.
I suppose the easiest way to do this would be explain my understanding of gender and then have people point out additional information I should know or otherwise explain mistakes in my thinking.
I am atheist; though one that has a neutral-positive view of religion. Essentially I am of the opinion that if your religion makes you happier, and/or helps you treat others in a better way, more power to you. I currently have a similar view of gender. I might be considered agender, or perhaps universally agender? Anyway, I think that genders are a construct society has created (but not something anchored in any objective truth) that people are usually born into and occasionally people find doesn't fit them and thus switch to another.
Initially I thought that the trans community had a similar view, often seeing the statement made that sex was biological, but gender a creation of society. However I have slowly started to get the impression that the community view gender is an objective biological reality. Mostly in the form of seeing people cite studies showing some differences in MRI scans of transgender brain. This has confused me further, aren't these studies arguing the opposite of the general principle of being trans? That you're the gender you identity with, not the one determined by your biology? Individual brain variance is pretty high. If someone was assigned male at birth, then identified as female, but scans did not indicate a transgender brain would she not really be transgender?
Tip of the iceberg on my confusion I suppose, but thank you all in advance for your thoughts.
Oh how I love lobbing hand-grenades....
But first, the peace pipe. TG people are by nature and circumstance.... defensive and paranoid. Actually it is not paranoia when you know they are out to get you. So her being "Defensive" is like a defensive mechanism born out from years of battling people who had no clue.
Now for the meat... Gender is biology. Biology is Destiny. BTW-Gender is not just the dangly, or lack of, bits. Religion, Societal 'Norms' in general, and many other factors around us define what is "Male" and what is "Female". Having an "Innie" or an "Outie" is an easy way to define people. Media, and esp "(anti)Social media" exert tremendous peer-pressure, which is why they were invented. The purpose is the same as it has been for a millennia, only the messages have changed. Religion has nuttin to do with nuttin, just an extension of peer-pressure as to "What is "Normal"'. The Jerry Springer's of the worlds as well as the .... I cannot say the name of the state.... love targets. Especially easy "low hanging fruit (pardon the pun)" targets. My life sucks and... Hey... You need to die
OK I digressed... Bad week at blackrock
If you listen to the wizards of smart, there are a lot of "reasons" why I "MAY" be TG. Today I read the Pope says .... (bite tongue) At the end of the day, the reason or reasons why I am what I am do not matter. I am what I am. Medical science cannot do more then what they already can to help me manage this.... dis-ease I have had for about as long as I can remember.
The "Anti" trans crowd loves citing "Scientific" evidence every bit as much as the pro trans crowd does. Again, reality says I cannot effective change either camps opinions. So again, it is a personal choice.
During and still to today, "North Carolina" can trigger me. THe Jenner fallout was just a warm up exercise. I thought I was hardened to all the BS after years being a chameleon and the reality check of being part of the Maryland Trans-Rights bill legal process. (Otherwise known as dealing with the "Bathroom" nuts)
There is a LOT of HATE out there. Few can let that flow through us :(
Hi,
How's your math skills?
Imagine a gaussian bell curve. Label the curve "male and penis". X axis is "masculinity going to feminity", Y axis is population. So, we have manly men and more feminine men. Do the same so women on a curve "female and vagina" offest on the feminine side. Now we have feminine women and more masculine women. Draw a single line where the two curges overlap. Remember, the curve extends fom 0 to infinity. What is in the middle, where the two curves overlap? Where the male cure crosses the vagina cure and the femail curve crosses the penis line? Men with vaginas and women with a penis.
I can graph it but not on my cell...
Hugs
Jen
I was born male...not a choice I could make. When I was a child I interacted with females with ease and with males it always seemed, well boring. I grew up in an era where gender roles were clearly defined in public. Guys worked on cars and girls wore dresses and kept house. I preferred a dress. I never discussed how I wanted to be a girl with my mother but I think deep down she knew. She found some of her things in my drawers and did not remove them. As I grew I fell into the gender role of being a man. Married, had kids, job and other male aligned things. I didn't hate that role but knew it was society dictating that and not me. The knowledge of what I wanted my gender to be never lessened but grew over my lifetime. I am now divorced, kids in college and nearing retirement. I am now going to live the rest of my life how I want to be.
The problem with wanting to be a girl is not mine but societies problem. Like buttons on a shirt, right for male and left for female. What difference would it make for every shirt to have buttons just on one side. Why would I have been beaten up for wearing a dress or skirt to school when I was a child. Because society said I had to be beat. It's funny how it is ok to like different food, colors, cars, movies and on and on. But knowing you are a different gender inside than outside and wanting to be that inside gender is not ok as determined by society.
I didn't hate myself for being male, but I love myself for being female.
Heather
Perhaps I can help a bit by appealing to another function of the human body, but first this important tidbit and it is a little informative of your question.
TRANS PEOPLE CAN NO MORE UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE CIS THAN CIS PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE TRANS.
That points to a basic structural difference. If being trans was or could be a choice then we would know what it's like to be you because we would have started that way and you could get a glimmer of what it's like to be us.
Now, let's look at speech. An infant is born recognizing AND reproducing every phoneme humans are capable of using. This is due both to a shared physical structure and because of basic shared pathways in the brain. The social part comes in when the infant ceases to use or even recognize phonemes not used in there culture. A native Japanese speaker will not recognize the difference between "l" and "r" as an example. A person with some difference in the associated brain structure will not be able to use a perfectly formed voicebox to speak as others do even if they are otherwise perfectly normal. Basic brain structure underlays social changes.
The big difference is that there are a host of minor differences in brain structure between what is associated with male genitalia and what is associated with female genitalia. Many of them are likely artifactual and make no significant difference. All of them may or may not exist in any one individual. Brain development is a crap shoot. A big one is preference for competition versus cooperation. This difference is the basis of a lot of the differences between gender roles. There are many many others.
Also, as many people have said, the body having, post birth, the wrong balance of sex hormones can cause distress to brain structures that were laid out to operate under the other balance.
Physical layout is also structured in the brain. It expects two arms, two legs and, I believe, breasts on bodies with female brains. As to the genetalia, there is reason to believe that, for most purposes the two common structures send the same signals to the brain and at most times the differences can be ignored which may be why some transgender people are comfortable with their birth configuration in that area. Then again it could also be sour grapes. Surgery to correct that is expensive, rarely covered under medical insurance and, for about half of our population, has disappointing results.
My, this turned out long and pedantic. I haven't dredged this stuff up in some time. I'm not sure I would have the patience to read all this.
"Imagine a gaussian bell curve.", Jen, maybe it's more Rayleigh distribution (and it's reverse on the left) but that's just me being nerdy ;D
Anyhow, Curious, while the underpinnings of the biology of Transness has not been adequately explored in humans, it has been observed in nature all over the place (as with variances in sexuality - but remember it's not the same thing). See Joan Roughgardens fascinating book "Evolutions Rainbow: Diversity, Gender and Sexuality in Nature and People" for mind blowing descriptions of other species that have multiple genders and some that have changeable genders.
https://www.amazon.com/Evolutions-Rainbow-Diversity-Gender-Sexuality/dp/0520260120
If it exists across many species then this means that there is a biological and evolutionary basis to being Trans. It's not "all in our mind", a fetish or culturally derived.
What is contrived, however, is the strict gender binary in our western culture as if there were no alternatives. Any anthropological study turns up many, many cases of Transgender humans throughout history, especially pre-history. Yes, we were rare then and still are - see Jen's Bell curve discussion.
Further study of history shows that when primarily patriarchal cultures became dominant (read Abrahamic religions mostly), we along with any other gender variant persons were suppressed and oppressed ... and still are to this day. Why? because we threaten the privilege of males and that wonderful status quo. Ta Da - there you are.
Ironically, in those older cultures, Trans, Queer and Third Gender folks were highly valued culturally in many cases (I've not read any counter examples BTW). In fact, Trans folks often held positions of great power and influence (see Raven Kaldera's writing).
So I want to thank you for checking your male and cis privilege and inquiring directly to Trans people. It's a breath of fresh air when that happens. We're so used to being "cis-speaked" to by people who think they know something about being Trans when there's no way for them to actually have a clue (usually while ignoring both the science and the history).
Best,
Lauren
Quote from: CuriousandConfused on August 05, 2016, 08:31:24 PM
Now for the most part, A people like their Pizza, and the Bs like their hamburgers. But some people who got classified as As decide they like hamburgers, and want to transition to B people. And vice versa.
Well, here's part of the problem. Do you really *decide* to like hamburgers? I don't. I try them, and either I like them or I don't. There's no calculus about nutrition vs. mouth feel vs. the ratio of savory to sweet.
I'm a woman, but not because I like wearing skirts. I did no math related to privilege when I decided to transition. I'm a woman because I'm a woman: Trans people experience gender identity as a base fact. There's no arguing it, just as there's no arguing that I actually hate the taste of that hamburger because it has too much sodium. Do you see?
You talk about privilege, so you must understand that some things non-privileged people experience, think, and feel are invisible to you. Not only haven't you experienced, thought, or felt them, but you can't sense the distinction... You don't realize that these things *can* be experienced, thought, or felt. You need to trust your friend to tell you her truth, and not push her on how she can feel what is to her a basic truth of her existence.
"Whipping Girl" is an extremely good book if you really want to educate yourself about these things.
Let me try to say the same thing some others have said. The idea that we want to transition into something else isn't really correct. In our minds we already are that something else. Some of us have had to hide it and many have hidden it very well. Nevertheless, we have always been that something else.
So what is called transition is simply bringing the outside into some kind of consistency with the inside. This is necessary because when they are not consistent, life basically sucks. I don't really know why it does, but it did for me and also for everyone else I have ever talked to.
The word transition really gives the wrong idea about what's going on.
I've tried to write my thoughts, this is my 5th rewrite, and it's grossly simplistic on purpose, because I am trying to express what I felt, and what feelings I have read in many other folks stories, and tried to reduce that to something more manageable.
We are aware.
Aware that our exterior doesn't match our internal experience.
Aware that our expression isn't consistent with our exterior.
Aware that our expression isn't consistent with societies expectations for our exterior.
Aware that there are rules around societies expectations.
Our internal experience, we are:
Aware that we do not align with fellow folk of similar exterior.
Aware that we do align with fellow folk of dissimilar exterior (in some cases), or
Aware that we align in part with fellow folk regardless of exterior, or
Aware that we do not align with folk, regardless of exterior, or
Aware that our alignment with folk of a given exterior may change day by day, or week by week.
In society we are:
Aware that the unaware will not see any need to question, or try to become aware, unless they have an awakening, or feel that they need to be able to relate to become an ally.
Aware that we can be perceived as dangerous or threatening by the unaware, simply because we challenge the status quo.
Aware that the inconsistency of our expression vs our exterior is confusing to the unaware, and we do have to try to explain.
Our awakening happens when, we have asked the unlikely questions of ourselves and our gender expression and found answers that are completely counter to our expectations.
Mine was the realisation that I was, in most part, performing my opposite gender role and I subconsciously sought out the company of the opposite gender for support, conversation and interaction. I became aware. I became aware that a significant proportion of time, I am Female in expression, words and deeds. I also became aware that the remainder I see the boundaries around both, neither one or the other. I also became aware that I have learned quite well (but not well enough), the rules of performing as expected according to my physical exterior.
That awakening poses the significant problem that we know we are outside the rules and every ounce of our core being wants us to be congruent and aligned. That fundamental mismatch is dysphoria. Our transformations come from a basic need to improve that alignment at any cost, driven by the stresses of our dysphoria - every minute, of every day is emotional work.
If I play in electric label-land, where we are trying to create an ontology of understanding and categories of identification, I may be a cross dressing Neutrois Demi-woman.
I am, however, me - amazing 'til the day I die, however badly I express it!
Sno