Yesterday, I was visiting some people I know and happened to mention what I'm struggling with (not just transition), and one of them said, "sounds like C-PTSD." Basically, it turns out that C-PTSD is when you're stuck in a traumatic situation over a long period of time.
I looked at some web pages on the subject, and, rather like when someone suggested a few years ago that I might be suffering from (childhood) trauma (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,180372.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,180372.html)), it sounds a lot like what I'm suffering from, just not as extreme as the cases they talk about. I can't remember being beaten or physically abandoned or anything, but I do remember being constantly told that almost everything I did was wrong (there were some things I got praised for, but it was inconsistent), and I was constantly in trouble for things that I now recognize I almost certainly could not have helped. But the biggest thing was that there was nobody I could turn to. If I talked to my parents about my problems, they just blamed me. I did not get any support from my brothers (or, later on, from my sister) and I still don't. Everybody seems perfectly nice (except when they aren't), but there's no sense that I could go to them if I needed someone. Just like my parents.
I see most of the symptoms (as per Wikipedia) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-PTSD#Adults) except for aggression. Depersonalization, looking for a rescuer. My marriage was definitely about me looking for someone to tell me what to do. And the sense of worthlessness and defectiveness has dominated my life and held me back. It's making transition difficult, because I keep feeling like, "how could someone as worthless as me have any right to want to be a woman?"
Anyway, I see my therapist tonight, I'll talk to her about it.
I looked at that page. I have felt most of that too but just always though it was dysphoria. Some of the symptoms do overlap, but not all of them. My parents didn't abuse me that I remember but they did tell me I was sick, twisted, and crazy when I was 13. I just buried it all and it was never spoken of again. I need to think about all this.
Worthless?
Hardly.
Diamond.
Quote from: Deborah on August 08, 2016, 03:30:39 PM
I have felt most of that too but just always though it was dysphoria.
In my case, I'm pretty sure it's more than just dysphoria. I had already repressed whatever transgender feelings I had by the time I was 6 (at the latest), and my family was not all that big on gender policing, anyway. (By contrast, everywhere
outside of my family was constantly gender-policing me, and finding me wanting for not being enough of a thug.) I know that the symptoms of my C-PTSD (or whatever it was) were in full swing by the time I was 10, and didn't start to let up until several years later, when I learned to kill off my feelings.
On the other hand, I wasn't able to deal with those issues until I was willing to accept the transgender aspects of myself. It's all tangled together; maybe I thought that my inability to be a proper boy was one of the reasons I was so worthless, and it wasn't until I could consider the possibility that not being a proper boy was really okay that I could work on the worthlessness.
Some days I'm able to hold myself together, but other days (like Sunday) I just feel like everyone, especially me, would have been spared a lot of pain and drama if I'd never been born.
Then I give myself a dope slap and remind myself of all the stuff I gotta do, worthless or not, and I force the pain to the back of my mind and get on with my day.
Yeah, I've been trying to dig myself out of this sort of hole for a while now. It's like PTSD+, where other things are kinda screwy because the trauma happened during critical developmental periods. There is a lot of good info on that wikipedia page that clicks with me.
Sorry to start quoting the wiki...but, if you read down to the treatment part it talks about "Herman believes recovery can only occur within a healing relationship and only if the survivor is empowered by that relationship". This is definitely how it happened for me. Were it not for the recently found support of people who truly care about me I would've floundered indefinitely. It includes the relationship with your therapist or whatever, but I don't feel the love in that one so I don't think it would be enough on its own.
But even that gets complicated, as it screws up how you handle relationships - "In Trauma and Recovery, Herman expresses the additional concern that patients who suffer from C-PTSD frequently risk being misunderstood as inherently 'dependent', 'masochistic', or 'self-defeating', comparing this attitude to the historical misdiagnosis of female hysteria."
And then that brings you into the whole revictimization thing, seeking a savior, attachment disorders, etc etc.
Also, I found this part pretty funny - "caution: victim's assessment of power realities may be more realistic than clinician's"
Some of the sources used in this page might be good things to read to help figure this crap out; it's really hard to try to fix it without having a good understanding of what's going on. I think I might see if my library has this book -
Lewis Herman, Judith (1992). Trauma and Recovery. Basic Books.
Anyways, cool thread. Thank you.
In nosing around the web, I ran across
this article (http://www.pete-walker.com/pdf/emotionalFlashbackManagement.pdf) which describes my childhood experience to a "T." The most relevant parts:
Quote from: Pete Walker, MA, MFT
Emotional Neglect: The Core Wound in Complex PTSD
Minimization about the debilitating consequences of a childhood rife with emotional neglect is at the core of the PTSD denial onion. Our recovery efforts are impeded until we understand how much of our suffering constellates around early emotional abandonment – around the great emptiness that springs from the dearth of parental loving interest and engagement, and around the harrowing experience of being small and powerless while growing up in a world where there is no-one who's got your back.
...
Traumatic emotional neglect occurs when a child does not have a single parent or caretaker to whom she can turn in times of need or danger, and when she does not have anyone for an extended period of time who is a relatively consistent source of comfort and protection.
Also, after reading his article on emotional flashbacks (http://www.pete-walker.com/flashbackManagement.htm), I realize that my episodes of intense self-hatred or despair are in fact emotional flashbacks:
Quote from: Pete Walker, MA, MFT
Emotional flashbacks are sudden and often prolonged regressions ('amygdala hijackings') to the frightening circumstances of childhood. They are typically experienced as intense and confusing episodes of fear and/or despair - or as sorrowful and/or enraged reactions to this fear and despair. Emotional flashbacks are especially painful because the inner critic typically overlays them with toxic shame, inhibiting the individual from seeking comfort and support, isolating him in an overwhelming and humiliating sense of defectiveness.
Because most emotional flashbacks do not have a visual or memory component to them, the triggered individual rarely realizes that she is re-experiencing a traumatic time from childhood.
I read the articles. Wow...
I was re-reading
Trauma and Recovery, and I in the "Epilogue to the 2015 Edition," I found a description of a study called the Family Pathways Project (named here in case you want to find the passage.) What really struck me was her description of how 18-month-old infants with "disorganized attachment" reacted when reunited with their mothers after a short separation:
Quote
The infants seem to be in conflict about whether to approach or avoid their mothers, as though they need and fear them at the same time. Instead of moving toward their mothers, they may freeze or start to approach and then move off at an angle, or they may seem to move in slow motion.... No greeting reunion takes place. The mothers may not pick up the infants or may hold them at a distance from their bodies and put them down quickly.
It led me to looking at what are called attachment disorders and "insecure attachment."
This was another "aha" moment for me. I've been told that my mother had a miscarriage between my birth and her getting pregnant with my younger brother, and when she was pregnant with him, she was put on bed rest and wasn't supposed to hold me. Assuming the miscarriage was at least a few months before she got pregnant with my brother and wild guessing that she was on bed rest for most of the first trimester, it means I would have had little contact from about 10 to 16 months, maybe longer, and once my brother was born (who was supposed to be my sister, BTW), she would have been overwhelmed with taking care of him plus me and my two older brothers. She also doesn't seem to have been the most motherly person -- she later told me on numerous occasions that she didn't like babies and was only interested in them once she could have intellectual discussions with them. She also told me that she'd suffered from depression when we were young.
One website (http://www.helpguide.org/articles/secure-attachment/attachment-issues-and-reactive-attachment-disorders.htm) describes the effect of attachment disorders:
Quote
Children with attachment disorders or other attachment problems have difficulty connecting to others and managing their own emotions. This results in a lack of trust and self-worth, a fear of getting close to anyone, anger, and a need to be in control. A child with an attachment disorder feels unsafe and alone.
...
Attachment disorders are the result of negative experiences in this early relationship. If young children feel repeatedly abandoned, isolated, powerless, or uncared for—for whatever reason—they will learn that they can't depend on others and the world is a dangerous and frightening place.
Add "confusing," and you've got what I've felt all my life.
Some of the causes:
Quote
- Sometimes the child's needs are met and sometimes they aren't. The child never knows what to expect.
...
- The parent is emotionally unavailable because of depression, an illness, or a substance abuse problem.
The "sometimes met and sometimes not" pretty well describes my relationship with my mother for as long as I knew her. There's also the aspect that when she did meet my needs, it felt like it was more about making her feel good rather than making me feel good or safe. Anytime meeting my needs would be difficult or ungratifying, she would bail. (Actually, both of my parents would.)
I also remember her telling me one time that when I was very young I "didn't want to be picked up or cuddled." Given how strong my need for physical contact is, that's really saying something. I don't recall her ever saying she did anything about it, she seemed to assume it was just the way I was. I do remember that I never felt like I could trust her.
I can relate. My psychologist said I was one criterion away from being diagnosed with PTSD. I had a pretty traumatic childhood so yeah, it's possible to suffer from that and dysphoria at the same time. It does make things confusing to untangle.
When I went and seen a psychiatrist for social security for disability,he said according to the test I took and talking to me I had PTSD along with a anti social disorder,the anti social disorder I've known about since 13,ptsd though couldn't understand that one for I don't recall any traumatic events in my life other then being raised a boy,but that one didn't bother me as much for it made me tough and independent. I don't go to psychiatrist because I don't trust them period I know myself pretty good for I've had to live with myself.
I don't think I have PTSD, but as long as I seeing a new therapist this week I'll ask them for an evaluation. My childhood actually wasn't traumatic as far as I remember. Other than being told I was sick and crazy when I was 13 the rest was fairly pleasant. I did have a pretty unpleasant experience about 17 years ago, but it wasn't trans related.
Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on September 03, 2016, 06:29:40 AM
My psychologist said I was one criterion away from being diagnosed with PTSD.
FWIW, the psychiatry profession has a history of not wanting to believe that trauma can have serious long-term effects. I believe it took a lot of lobbying to get them to include PTSD in the DSM at all. (Reminds me of their resistance to removing "homosexuality" from their list of disorders. Defenders Of The Patriarchy....)
Just because you don't remember anything particularly traumatic doesn't mean it wasn't. For one thing, C-PTSD is usually isn't caused by extreme incidents, but by a pervasive toxic environment which, because it's the way it's always been, you assume is normal. I can remember for at least part of my childhood how much pain I was in, because there were specific incidents that brought it to the fore (thinking daily about killing myself, which I never forgot, was another clue.) But as for most of my childhood, I just remember I was always wrong and always felt unsafe and out of place. It is only by analyzing what I remember and seeing how well how I was treated fits into typical causes of C-PTSD that I can see it, and I still can't feel the connection.
For another thing, people often repress the feelings and even the events.
As for "anti-social disorder", according to the trauma people (Hermann, van der Kolk), complex trauma can manifest in a variety of officially recognized disorders: Borderline, Dissociative Identity Disorder, Oppositional-Defiant Disorder, etc. They're all different ways to deal with an intolerable situation which one cannot get out of (e.g., childhood.)
When I look at my past and my feelings and my responses as if I were somebody else, I say, "of course, it's clear that they have an attachment disorder; in particular, disorganized attachment." It's only when I try to apply it to myself that I start saying, "oh, you're making a mountain out of a molehill, it wasn't that bad." (But it was.)
The weird thing was I was allowed to be free,no curfew,got an allowance,i had friends til we moved to Texas,it was hard making new friends for they would double cross you in a moment,most of my 6-12 I was suspended for fighting,i hate bullies period. But where we moved was a gold mine for a 13yr old in 1978,working for myself I made alot of money and spent it on food and arcades. The only traumatic experience was when I got my first haircut and the haircuts afterward,to this day I hate short hair. I quit having babysitters when i was 10 for I put my foot down,was tired of them wanting to give me a bath,it seemed that no sooner my parents were gone it was bath time,i did have sex yrs later with one of em,we had friends with benefits for over a yr. It was fun. But I've always been a loner and loved reading and studying on my own I graduated on my terms from high school,the school system wasn't able to keep up with me so was bored. The only real thing I can out my finger on was fighting myself and my identity,nowadays I know who and what I am,and I owe alot of that to my wife,but full transition is a no go,besides I have had boobs since I was 13,so I'm fine with that. Hmm I think I need to think deeper.
I understand you´re looking for a general diagnosis that can describe the symptoms you have, but (my own opinion) I would advise everyone not to diagnose themselves based on Wikipedia or the internet.
Feelings of worthlessness are not necessarily indicative of PTSD. I´m saying this because C-PTSD in particular is a mixed bag of issues, and all of those issues on their own (whether or not they´re called by the umbrella term CPTSD) are equally valid without having that label on them.
I´ve been diagnosed with CPTSD, I have trouble with agression, depression, numbness, dissociation, social anxiety, borderline symptoms, sleeping problems, and in the past have had other horrible symptoms that I don´t even want to repeat here.
For people who have PTSD stemming from prolongued physical danger it can be somewhat unsettling to see people diagnose themselves with it, without having been through extensive therapy. Whatever it is called that you have, it would seem serious enough to try and make a treatment plan.
Quote from: November Fox on September 05, 2016, 08:50:03 AM
I understand you´re looking for a general diagnosis that can describe the symptoms you have, but (my own opinion) I would advise everyone not to diagnose themselves based on Wikipedia or the internet.
I've been seeing a therapist (PhD) for a while who is trained in trauma treatment (in addition to gender counselling.) My previous therapist and the current one both see me as having PTSD, and the current one has been giving me EMDR and some other techniques that she has been getting training in which I don't remember the name for.
I actually specifically asked her tonight whether she was simply humoring me when I said it sounded like I had "disorganized attachment," and after hearing my understanding of it, she said that this was what she believed, too. I think my previous therapist said something about attachment disorder, and the one before that spoke of something similar, but in psychoanalytic jargon, since she was analytically trained.
The main thing that these diagnoses mean for me personally (as opposed to my therapist, who would presumably use them to guide treatment) is that it makes connections between what I remember happening and what has been going on with me my whole life. It is helping me make sense of my experience of myself. The diagnoses as such don't matter so much as seeing my experiences described in black and white. Maybe I'm not an ugly alien after all, just a human who didn't get a certain vital kind of psychological nourishment. A sort of psycho-developmental kwashiorkor.
The weird thing is that I read this stuff, it makes sense, and then I remember her telling me a lot of it during my sessions, only I didn't take it in. There's still a large part of me that wants to insist that things weren't that bad, that I'm simply making it up "to get attention," as they said all the time when I was growing up. (After all, I didn't go all the way and
actually commit suicide, so it couldn't have been very bad, amiright?) I know stuff, but then I "forget" it. I have to go through the steps over and over again before it starts to stick.
BTW, it's not just Wikipedia, which I'd also take with many grains of salt. I've been reading Herman (
Trauma and Recovery) and van der Kolk (
The body keeps the score) again (my previous therapist recommended them 2 years ago), and they go into a lot more detail.
You know, I spent a lifetime trying to figure all this stuff out. Well 54 years anyway. I had a very traumatic childhood too. My mother alternately beat me, let me live as a little girl and had sex with me. This was around 3-5th grades. Then she dumped me off at a police station and I wound up in an orphanage at 11 and the state basically raised me after that. I wound up a closeted angry alcoholic. I spent a lot of time in jails and institutions. The process of getting sober in a 12-step program gave me the honesty I needed to come out, initially as gay, then trans. That led me to a VERY good trauma resolution therapist. (TRT) He doesn't get into a lot of terminology or diagnosis. (I was already diagnosed with PTSD and ADHD). As we have walked backwards through my traumas, I also drank for 20 years as a paramedic and have all those memories to deal with, I have begun to get more and more memories back. Getting the brain free of chemicals for a year and a half probably hasn't hurt either. I now remember sleeping in curlers and going to grade school in girly clothes and curled hair. I also remember getting bullied and all that fear and despair. The telling and remembering of these things take away their power. Even this post will help. The key for me is honesty and action. I quit sitting around thinking about all this stuff and started taking action. Every time I tell someone I'm trans and plan to transition it feels more real, right and comfortable. I go to a good trans support group and talk about it there. Oh yea, I was diagnosed as a sociopath at one point. I am a peaceful law abiding citizen today, so I don't place to much faith in a lot of these diagnoses.