Okay science question,
I know there are individuals who produce elevated levels of male and female hormones (adrenal hyperplasia perhaps?) Can't they study whatever is wrong with their system and apply it to modify mature gonads to change their hormonal output? Has this avenue ever been studied or tried? Gonads are our sex hormone factories--why can't they been trained to learn new tricks? Educate me.
Good question!
Sometimes I think about a thing like a drug which turns the estrogen into testosterone in our blood
But I think (not sure) it's impossible , because of differences in hormone balance and operation of gonads in males and females
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This isn't conclusive but I am seeing a number of intersex members who are hormonally unbalanced. I don't know how common this is in the CIS community but it appears it's timed with the development of being intersex.
Quote from: EddieX on August 18, 2016, 04:45:54 PM
Good question!
Sometimes I think about a thing like a drug which turns the estrogen into testosterone in our blood
But I think (not sure) it's impossible , because of differences in hormone balance and operation of gonads in males and females
Not possible because it is the testosterone molecule which reduces down to estrogen rather than the other way around in the blood. Quite a few hormones are changed or metabolized in the body into other hormones, with different effects, but the only way to "replace" them is usually to add more to the system artificially.
Perhaps this study would interest you:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/20/one-gene-keeps-mickey-from-turning-into-minnie/#.V7dp6vkrKM8 (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/20/one-gene-keeps-mickey-from-turning-into-minnie/#.V7dp6vkrKM8)
In mice, at least, the answer is yes. We have yet to find the counterpart in humans but it's likely there is a similar configuration.
I'm caught between wanting to remove my ovaries because the hormones they pump out contribute to my mood disorder, and thinking this is all rather silly. I mean, what signals them to produce one hormone and not another? And what was going wrong with me that my body was not producing adequate testosterone. About 50% of FTMs have elevated T levels pre everything. I'm in that other 50%. The female hormones were making me sick every day and bodies usually seek homeostasis, yet my gonads continued to pump out female hormones like they just didn't care. There's supposed to be (according to high school biology class so ... not exactly hard science I guess) communication between the brain and the organs that produce hormones. Unless my brain was signalling "yeah, more of this" while I got sicker and sicker. That's seems wrong. I had a strong feeling when I was a teenager that Estrogen was poisoning me. I didn't know anything about FTM. I just knew something was very wrong.
I just want to understand how these organs really work so I can make a decision about what to do next.
Can I ask if you had any diagnosed health issues pre-T? I know you say you were sick everyday, but that could mean a lot of things.
I think that part of your question has been adequately addressed. What I will say is that I don't think science is very interested (or rather, invested) in turning one into the other. I'm not sure the fruits of that research would be applied in this way. Perhaps only to say that it could be done. To turn one into the other you'd need gene therapy, and the applied studies on that have been in relation to disease eradication.
If your doctor believes that removing your ovaries would have a positive impact on any aspect of your health, I'd say go for it. I don't think we will see ovaries being turned into testes outside of a lab in my lifetime. While the biological function wouldn't be the same as if you had changed from one to the other, you'd at least be without the one that's causing you grief.
Quote from: DarkWolf_7 on August 19, 2016, 03:23:37 PM
Perhaps this study would interest you:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/20/one-gene-keeps-mickey-from-turning-into-minnie/#.V7dp6vkrKM8 (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/07/20/one-gene-keeps-mickey-from-turning-into-minnie/#.V7dp6vkrKM8)
In mice, at least, the answer is yes. We have yet to find the counterpart in humans but it's likely there is a similar configuration.
This study is amazing, thanks! I talked to a vet and she was unaware of this. Seems like there might be an analogue in humans. Rodent models are used a lot in medicine.
Quote from: FTMax on August 20, 2016, 11:36:12 AM
Can I ask if you had any diagnosed health issues pre-T? I know you say you were sick everyday, but that could mean a lot of things.
Yes, I was diagnosed with a mood disorder and allergies, although the allergist didn't think that my histamine response was adequate to explain the symptoms I was complaining of--turns out they were right. I felt sick every day. Like I had a virus. But I didn't. I am doing a lot better moodwise on testosterone although it's hard to tease out because I have taken two different anti-depressant/mood stabilizers while I've taken T. I had mental fog, memory loss, headaches, various inflammatory complaints including mysterious itching all over. I also had migraines that were getting increasingly severe (lost time at work, etc). Haven't had one in weeks now.
I also am on the ASD spectrum and I have GERD and those haven't been affected by starting T.
FTMax, not having my balls is a big part of my genital dysphoria. Talking about removing ovaries brings those feelings up in a bad way. Yeah, maybe it won't happen but I didn't have existing ovarian problems so I'd say that gives me 5 years to see where the science goes. It seems to me like this is an area that hasn't received adequate research. Also, IMO our condition is a disease, so why shouldn't it receive medical research $$$?
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Well, there is too much to write to provide a detailed response in this box.
My favorite resource for inter-sex is Dr. Paul MacDonald at the University of Arizona Medical School. But he has been gone for decades. You might obtain information from that school.
I also wrote an article about this at my site. Much of the lack of research is political. I did research way back in the early 1980s and hit roadblocks that remain to this day.
Here's what I have learned during my years.
Basically, gonads can either emit the correct hormone or varying amounts of either correct, incorrect, or mixed amounts, or none at all.
Then your cellular receptor sites can either receive the correct amount, or varying correct amounts, incorrect, mixed, or no hormones.
Whew! And this is just a slice off the top.
Then you can read how the mental part of fetal development completes by the 2nd month of gestation while the anatomical does not complete til the end of the 3rd month.
Generally, a nib of the Y chromosome activates what is called Mullerian Duct Regression Factor hormone - that ceases the development of the female genital system in the male phenotype. It's the Wolffian Duct Regression Factor hormone that otherwise activates in the female to cease development of the male genital system in the female phenotype.
Got it that far?
But sometimes neither MDRF or WDRF work properly. You can get both, you can get combinations of both, you can get neither.
This is all inter-sex mechanics.
There can be three primary linear tracks that identify where you are on the inter-sex path. One line is for those who have the XY chromosomes, the other two are for the variations of the XX chromosomes. Those lines also identify variations of the X and the Y - missing or excess.
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As of one year ago, my current primary identified mine as ovaries. I went to a specialist for a follow-up who ruled out that they were testes. No matter what label, they gave me ambiguous appearance at birth such that the doctor erroneously decided that I was 'male'.
I went through a spurt of female puberty during my teens, that diminished, then went into the beginnings of a male puberty just before I finally got on female hormones to stop it.
Along the way, the doctors eventually determined that I am female by inter-sex. That was its own tough decision because it was what I wanted but then I suddenly had to decide what to do with that knowledge.
Back in my time, I was discouraged from continuing my M-F transition and to accept the erroneous assignment at birth; apparently that is common for inter-sex. I started with my self as transsexual and that meant proceeding to complete transition to female.
My 'regret' is not doing transition better. Most of us wherever we are in this get only one chance (unless you choose to de-transition and begin again later in life). Therefore, learn everything that you can learn so that you can do whatever you decide in the best possible way for yourself. Only you know your path. We are all different yet we all have our unique experiences to share among ourselves.
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Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on August 21, 2016, 09:26:47 AM
FTMax, not having my balls is a big part of my genital dysphoria. Talking about removing ovaries brings those feelings up in a bad way. Yeah, maybe it won't happen but I didn't have existing ovarian problems so I'd say that gives me 5 years to see where the science goes. It seems to me like this is an area that hasn't received adequate research. Also, IMO our condition is a disease, so why shouldn't it receive medical research $$$?
Does it matter to you that they be fully functional? Scrotoplasty and the insertion of testicular implants are an optional addition to both existing bottom surgery procedures. The implants are the same kind that cisgender men have the option of getting after testicular cancer. I am not sure it would work, but what about the possibility of transplanting the ovaries? Removing them, completing a scrotoplasty, and then inserting them in place of implants? I don't know what effects that would have hormonally, but if the idea of having anything implanted doesn't appeal, that could be another option. I've never heard of it being done, but it's a question you could ask a surgeon later on. That would at least leave them positioned in such a way that if changing one to the other became an option, you'd still have them there to do so. But it would mean leaving them there until that became an option.
On the topic of gender dysphoria being a disease, I believe it is better classified as a condition. Diseases are patho-physiological responses to internal or external factors, conditions are abnormal states of health which interfere with regular feelings of well being.
I think the issue you'd find with getting funding on that basis is that transition is very individualized. The "end game" if you will for many trans people doesn't involve SRS or anything related. Having given grant money in the past, you want to make sure that your money is doing the greatest good possible. While there may be some special interest donors out there that would be thrilled to put their money into something like this, most would rather focus on funding things that meet a more widespread need.
That of course begs the question, if the option was available, would more trans people pursue it? I think on the FTM side, the amount of misinformation or lack of information in general regarding SRS procedures has a large impact on the percentage of trans men pursuing lower surgeries (which I would lump such a procedure under the umbrella of). While that situation is constantly improving, I think that would be a very big hurdle to overcome in order to get more people interested in pursuing something even more advanced like those surgeries plus the gene therapy it would take to change ovaries into testes.
If I were in the shoes of someone granting research funds, I'd want to see that whatever I'm funding meets a certain level of impact. On a dollars per person formula - using easy numbers, if I have $5 million to fund one research project and I have two in front of me:
Option A - positively impacts 5 million people
Option B - positively impacts 500,000 people
I'd essentially be spending $1 per person impacted with Option A, and $10 per person impacted with Option B. There are other factors you'd have to take into account with health research like contagion or heredity, morbidity, etc. that may weigh more in favor of the more expensive option. But IMO, getting into such a niche area as this that would (at current rates) not even impact half of an existing population - I think you'd be hard pressed to make that case. As much as organizations funding research would love to consider the human factor and the positive impact their money can have on individual lives, IME it usually comes down to the greatest good that can be done per dollar.
You make a good point FTMax, but I think that research into sex, intersex, and transsexuals is broadly applicably scientifically and not a mere niche cul-de-sac. I've perused a few articles about research done on transsexuals and generally the authors think that their results can be related to cis people in need of, for example, hormone therapy. Just as research on genital surgeries for soldiers is kind of widely assumed to be ultimately applicable to FTMs. Hormones and aging for example is a huge area in medicine and I think some researchers look at transsexual people as special end cases that illuminate matters for the great mass of people. (They could be wrong about that, I mean maybe we're just really weird.)
Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on August 18, 2016, 04:08:11 AM
Okay science question,
I know there are individuals who produce elevated levels of male and female hormones (adrenal hyperplasia perhaps?) Can't they study whatever is wrong with their system and apply it to modify mature gonads to change their hormonal output? Has this avenue ever been studied or tried? Gonads are our sex hormone factories--why can't they been trained to learn new tricks? Educate me.
Came in to post the same thing as someone already posted (the study on mice that showed turning on or off certain genes can turn ovaries into testes). So yes, it is entirely possible. I think its not so much that it could never be done/is impossible in humans, so much as I can't see a lot of scientists putting much effort into researching it beyond small non-human animals given that there likely wouldn't be a lot of funding for it. Similar with the situation of two XX chromosome people being able to produce children together. Scientists have been able to create functioning XX sperm using stem cells from adult female assigned people, the only "issue" being that it would only be capable of creating female assigned, XX babies. More study into this area would help women with infertility issues as well as lesbian couples and trans guy/cis female couples have their own biological children, but there seems to have been a bit of backlash against it and again I think it comes down to funding. Will that kind of research get a lot of funding, and it seems not. Who knows, maybe further into the future.
I think the only way you could turn ovarian tissue into testicular tissue (or vice versa), is to extract some stem cells from them and then (for ovaries->testicles), replace one of the X chromosome with a donor Y chromosome, and for testicles->ovaries, take out the Y chromosome and either double up the X chromosome or use a donor X from someone else to make 2 X's. Then you'd have to multiply up the modified stem cells in the laboratory and induce them to differentiate into mature gonadal tissue, then form the tissue into testicles/ovaries, before transplanting them back into the patient. Because they'd effectively be cloned tissue apart from the alterations to sex chromosomes, the hopefully shouldn't be problems with rejection. Depending on how well your hypothalamus and pituitary cope with controlling gonadal tissue of the opposite type to what they were previously handling, you might also need to take externally administered gonadotropins (LH and FSH) to tell the newly inserted testicles/ovaries to do their thing.
So I think it could be done, but the technology isn't quite there yet!