I found this funny joke thing on tumblr the other day, so I posted it to my FB. It goes,
IMPORTANT PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION:
If a cis person gives their opinion on trans issues in the middle of the woods, is it still irrelevant?
Answer: Always and forever.
This came right on the heels of a cis person at work cis-splaining trans issues to me, a trans person. I wanted to put her head through a wall for her condescension (and didn't), but given this incident, the joke seemed particularly appropriate to my life.
My friend Ciarán commented on it with a little tongue in cheek thing about how that meant they were as relevant as ever (ie, not at all). I said, "the danger is in letting cis people think their opinions matter at all! :P" And he's cis, and he laughed, and said he hoped that he could still have an opinion on cookies, because he has opinions about cookies.
He got it. I (obviously) wasn't saying that cis people should never have opinions ever. I was continuing the OP, which was, their opinions on TRANS ISSUES should be and are irrelevant.
So I love Ciarán, he's awesome and has a great sense of humor.
Enter Shelley. "You know, for someone who rails against making fun of people for things they can't help and who makes people feel like sh*t, you're being a massive hypocrite with this."
...
Am I wrong in thinking that this is on par, with, like, a person of color making a joke about white people being able to dance? A queer person making a joke about straight guys not being able to match their shirt to their pants? It's my understanding that when a minority makes a joke about the oppressing majority, it is NOT the same as oppressing or harming them. I thought, as a trans person, I could make a joke about cis people without harming anything or anyone. Clearly not.
Then one of her friends - not my friend, hers - said something like "You should watch the jokes you're making because what are you going to do when push comes to shove and you need the cis people to speak up on trans issues and no one wants to help you because you're a horrible person."
Am I wrong in thinking that this is basically tone policing and crappy allyship, along the lines of "I'll only be your ally as long as you behave and speak in ways I, the oppressing majority, find acceptable"?
Don't get me wrong, please. This joke really was as innocent as I'm portraying it, and obviously I have cis friends who don't live with their heads up their backsides who saw it for what it was. I'm just really angry about those two responses and I hate feeling like I need to adjust the way I joke to accommodate CIS feelings. Because like... how many tr*nny jokes have I had to sit through in my life, you know?
I guess I just need reassurance that Shelley and her flunkey are in fact crappy allies and that I'm not wrong for feeling as upset about their responses as I do.
-James
Dismissing a person's opinion(s) about a subject merely because that person is (insert adjective here) is rude.
"Oh, she doesn't know anything about cars...she's a woman, after all!"
"That guy? Did you know he's declared bankruptcy twice now? He doesn't know the first thing about money!"
Both of the above are rude, because they put value on a person's knowledge based on a seemingly connected event or status, which (according to stereotyping) is "proof" of the connection.
A woman can know about cars, a person with a history of bankruptcy can know about money, and a cis*person can have relevant opinions on trans issues.
You're denouncing her opinions because she is cis, not because she is wrong and/or uninformed. I think it'd be better for you if you were to say, "I don't know how she gets that opinion. I think she's mistaken about it."
This way you are not tying her cis- status to her opinion, and you aren't adding the "always and forever" qualifier.
Imho, I don't agree with the belief that only oppressive majorities can make jokes which are harmful. Any group may be racist, classist, sexist etc, and these are just as socially unacceptable as any other, regardless of the perceived effects of the -ist used.
Call me crazy - or just unusually touchy - but I do not wish to have a cis person explain me my life. That will never be acceptable to me.
Your position on cis opinions being irrelevant is by no means unusual among trans activists. It's an understandable rejection that comes from so many cis opinions being invalidating and giving them serious thought would be draining on trans people.
On the other hand, saying cis opinions are irrelevant is factually incorrect and not realistic. In an ideal world maybe they wouldn't be relevant. But in our world they have a profound effect on the issue.
I feel like if I had been posting a serious status about Serious Things, then people would have been right to take offense to it, but given that it was clearly and obviously a joke, Shelley's reaction is unacceptable and makes me feel unsafe around her. She made me feel like her ally-ship was conditional upon me conforming to her standards of humor and behavior, and I'm not even trying to hear that mess.
You're saying the FB post was a joke, and yet later you clearly state later that you agree with it--that cis people's opinions "on trans matters" are irrelevant. This removes the joke claim and makes it a serious thing.
That's why she took offense at it...You were dismissing her opinion on the grounds she is cis, rather than asking about why she thought that way. (I note that I don't know what her opinion was about. If it was a general topic common to all trans, that's one thing, but if it was a topic personal to you in particular, then yes her opinion could be dismissed).
Also note that what is funny to one person may not be funny to others, and the temperaments also affect the responses. There are people who assume the worst in people as well as those who assume that the person may just be in need of enlightenment, and of course everywhere in between.
Can you clarify what you meant when you wrote, "... I do not care to have a cis person explain me my life."? Was it personal, or something else?
Certainly the way she said it is argumentative and clearly took it personal. However cisgender people don't realise the everyday jabs and degradations they inflict. For example, I recently went out with a friend of mine and who immediately laughed at me because of the fact that I sculpted my eyebrows. Just a joke to him, but it has an effect. And then later talking about how my mother messed me up, so while he was giving me heck I was taking it, but the thing is they don't see what built up to saying you don't want their opinion on this issue, so it seems to them like you're being rude, when really they were rude long before, they just didn't know it, and I didn't have the desire to keep pointing it out ad nauseum.
Quote from: eastallegheny on September 08, 2016, 06:24:01 AM
Call me crazy - or just unusually touchy - but I do not wish to have a cis person explain me my life. That will never be acceptable to me.
Much though I wish it weren't so, I feel this way also. The most telling time would have been when my gf was kind of dressing down a friend of hers about views on transexuality. Ironically, this happened after I'd decided to start HRT but was waiting on my endo appt. I'd decided to start in stealth because all prior mention had immediately shifted focus to the effect on her.
Anyhow said gf said a few things I actually found to be offensive assumptions and to boot wouldn't let the only trans person in the room get a word in edgewise (I think, btw that this was because her social anxiety aka transphobia didn't want me presenting myself as trans).
Now my gf is above average clueful and is consciously respectful but that doesn't necessarily equate to understanding and in my actual experience usually entails an assumption of understanding that rarely bodes well for communication.
@bethAndrea, sure the terms always and never are usually an indication of communication not working, however as I said above my experience has been pretty uniformly awful and I took the OPs words as how she advertised them -- a rant.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 08, 2016, 06:20:45 AM
Dismissing a person's opinion(s) about a subject merely because that person is (insert adjective here) is rude.
Depends upon the adjective.
If someone who knows nothing about a field is going to offer their "opinions" about something I know a lot about, yes I'm going to dismiss their opinion.
The likelihood that a cis person who has not already demonstrated considerable knowledge and
understanding of trans issues is going to have an opinion that's more than noise is too low for me to waste my not unlimited time and energy on. I may make exceptions for people who are actually supportive and who I have an ongoing relationship with, assuming they're willing to listen when I tell them why they're wrong. But I've spent too much energy trying to educate people who don't want to be educated.
Also, the cis people who know enough and are empathic enough to have an opinion worth my time will also be aware of just how worn down we all are by the steady flood of arrogantly ignorant "opinions" from uninformed and uninformable cis people and be tender and circumspect about offering their views on things so outside their personal experience.
Quote from: Beth Andrea on September 08, 2016, 08:47:23 AM
You're saying the FB post was a joke, and yet later you clearly state later that you agree with it--that cis people's opinions "on trans matters" are irrelevant. This removes the joke claim and makes it a serious thing.
That's why she took offense at it...You were dismissing her opinion on the grounds she is cis, rather than asking about why she thought that way. (I note that I don't know what her opinion was about. If it was a general topic common to all trans, that's one thing, but if it was a topic personal to you in particular, then yes her opinion could be dismissed).
Also note that what is funny to one person may not be funny to others, and the temperaments also affect the responses. There are people who assume the worst in people as well as those who assume that the person may just be in need of enlightenment, and of course everywhere in between.
Can you clarify what you meant when you wrote, "... I do not care to have a cis person explain me my life."? Was it personal, or something else?
Maybe I shouldn't have quoted the whole thing, but I didn't want to miss anything. Let me address all your points/queries:
1. Joke or no joke, her response was disproportionate to the status.
2. It is not my job, as the marginalized (trans) person, to manage the feelings of the oppressor (cis) person. If I were a person of color and I made a joke about white people not being able to dance and White Guy took offense, would we be having this conversation? No, because everyone understands that white people's feelings on matters of race are largely irrelevant because
they do not experience racism the way people of color do. Likewise, I firmly believe that cis opinions of trans matters are irrelevant because
they do not experience transphobia the way we do.
2a. Disclaimer: I am a white people. I fully acknowledge that my feelings on race do not matter, because I don't experience racism. I would never presume to tell a person of color how it is, nor would I be so precious as to take offense because a person of color, living a life being oppressed by people like me, dared to break the tension for themselves by cracking wise about people like me.
2b. Additionally, I don't comment on statuses about particle physics, or Game of Thrones, or the biology of horses, because I don't know anything about the subject, and therefore
my opinion is irrelevant. See the parallel?
3. If she didn't think it was funny, she could have scrolled on by. Instead she chose to engage, and in the process, I feel, exposed herself as one of those fair-weather allies: the kind of ally who is only an ally while the going is good.
4. I do not care to have a cis person explain me my life - in the OP I mentioned that half the reason I posted the joke in the first place was because I had had a cis girl at work sitting there trying to cis-splain me trans issues - ie, a big part of my life. Again, I don't think she has the right to tell me how trans issues are when
she does not experience them.One of the first rules of being an effective ally is that if you are the majority/non oppressed party, you never, ever, talk over the oppressed party. Part of being an effective ally is knowing when to sit down, shut up, and let the people who actually experience the issues being discussed be heard. She just proved that she can't do that.
Quote from: eastallegheny on September 08, 2016, 03:48:59 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have quoted the whole thing, but I didn't want to miss anything. Let me address all your points/queries:
1. Joke or no joke, her response was disproportionate to the status.
2. It is not my job, as the marginalized (trans) person, to manage the feelings of the oppressor (cis) person. If I were a person of color and I made a joke about white people not being able to dance and White Guy took offense, would we be having this conversation? No, because everyone understands that white people's feelings on matters of race are largely irrelevant because they do not experience racism the way people of color do. Likewise, I firmly believe that cis opinions of trans matters are irrelevant because they do not experience transphobia the way we do.
2a. Disclaimer: I am a white people. I fully acknowledge that my feelings on race do not matter, because I don't experience racism. I would never presume to tell a person of color how it is, nor would I be so precious as to take offense because a person of color, living a life being oppressed by people like me, dared to break the tension for themselves by cracking wise about people like me.
2b. Additionally, I don't comment on statuses about particle physics, or Game of Thrones, or the biology of horses, because I don't know anything about the subject, and therefore my opinion is irrelevant. See the parallel?
3. If she didn't think it was funny, she could have scrolled on by. Instead she chose to engage, and in the process, I feel, exposed herself as one of those fair-weather allies: the kind of ally who is only an ally while the going is good.
4. I do not care to have a cis person explain me my life - in the OP I mentioned that half the reason I posted the joke in the first place was because I had had a cis girl at work sitting there trying to cis-splain me trans issues - ie, a big part of my life. Again, I don't think she has the right to tell me how trans issues are when she does not experience them.
One of the first rules of being an effective ally is that if you are the majority/non oppressed party, you never, ever, talk over the oppressed party. Part of being an effective ally is knowing when to sit down, shut up, and let the people who actually experience the issues being discussed be heard. She just proved that she can't do that.
In my case, given enough time the cis-person begins to believe their own rhetoric. Then shortly after that, the rhetoric becomes "fact" if left unchallenged.
I am at the point where I just do not want to hear my existence put in terms of how inconvenient it is for the cis -person/s now...you know...having to look at all them "transgenders".
God forbid my presence should offend anyone...just because I am there, not because I have said or done anything
Eastallegheny hope you don't mind if I join you in having a rant! :)
Liz
I believe any race can experience racism.
But then again, I go by the dictionary definition: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism
The definition in intersectional feminist theory differs from that as it's based on Marxism and it's inherent anti individualism.
But transphobia is different as clearly a cis person can't experience transphobia.
I hear some very serious talk on this thread. We all must remember that humor is no laughing matter. It is not for the overly sensitive. I think you have to match your joke to your audience. You would tell some people you are tight with almost anything, whereas you might not tell an acquaintance a more sensitive joke. That said, I think making fun of the stereotype itself is much funnier than shooting dumb cis people in a barrel. Now is that acceptable? I didn't say all cis people are dumb. If people act stupidly, I might see them as fair game. Saying all cis people, now that is a bit creepy to me.
I'll tell you what I always hated. I am white. When some stupid white guy would come up to me and tell me a "joke" about black people (usually using the "N" word.) They then look at me like I should like it. Two minutes later they then switch it off so they can talk to that black customer who has just walked up. No thanks!
Moni
No cis people were harmed in the making of this post.
SJWs (social justice warriors) would have a heck of a time debating the topic at hand. This might actually get interesting, as many SJWs have not a clue regarding trans issues, and might not know how to shout down claims of misconduct. Trans SJWs would be the exception.
At present, trans people seem to not have the right to say anything about any other group... not like the restrictions on white cis people decrying other groups. It seems we are supposed to just be nice, or expect consequences. IMO, this sets a dangerous precedence.
It doesn't bother me when a cisperson WHO IS KNOWLEDGABLE explains transgender issues to me. I understand and respect that.
Now, when some ignorant lout starts cisplaining Trans issues, I might not think their opinion or explanation is particularly important. I may even respond in a less than respectful manner to 'explanations' that include stuff like "Because Deuteronomy 22:5!"
I don't think this makes me a bad person. I don't think it will cost me support from most cisgender persons. The sort of folks who provide such disinformation on transgender issues are unlikely to be real supporters. They tend to be in the "God loves you, that's why you are going to Hell" camp.
But that's just my opinion on the issue. I'm not the Official Designated Transgender Spokesperson.