I'm curious because it's a serious concern I have that's been eating at me for several days since I was put on it.
Prometrium is the trade name for micronized progesterone and it has minimal, if any androgenic effects, compared with earlier forms of progesterone supplements, some of which did.
Quote from: SadieBlake on September 15, 2016, 05:57:32 AM
Prometrium is the trade name for micronized progesterone and it has minimal, if any androgenic effects, compared with earlier forms of progesterone supplements, some of which did.
That's good ^_^ huge relief off my chest
Yes. it does have androgenic effects and they aren't always minimal.
I stopped taking it because it was causing my body hair to grow in thick again.
YMMV.
I have seen no androgenic effects - although my Spironolactone dosage was increased at the same time i added prometrium. Indeed the Wikipedia article on HRT seems to indicate that bio identical progesterones like prometrium are anti-androgenic, while the synthetic ones could be slighly androgenic:
High doses of progestogens exert negative feedback on the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis by activating the progesterone receptor. As a result, they have antigonadotropic properties—that is, they suppress the gonadal production of sex hormones such as androgens. As such, sufficient dosages of progestogens, such as cyproterone acetate, megestrol acetate, medroxyprogesterone acetate, hydroxyprogesterone caproate, and progesterone, can considerably lower androgen levels.
Certain progestins—including 19-nortestosterone derivatives like levonorgestrel, norgestrel, norethisterone, and norethisterone acetate, as well as, to a lesser extent, the 17-hydroxyprogesterone derivative medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA)—have weak androgenic properties because they bind to and activate the androgen receptor similarly to testosterone, and can produce androgenic side effects such as acne, hirsutism, and increased sex drive.[21][22][23] Conversely, certain other progestins, such as cyproterone acetate, megestrol acetate, and drospirenone, bind to and block the activation of the androgen receptor.[2
^^ yes that's one of the things I've read as well as quite a lot of data from older studies about androgenic and health effects from other forms of progestins that aren't shared by the micronized form according to more recent research.
Needless to say I'm also glad to see that recent work, summed up well in the Wikipedia article solidly tying progesterone to breast development -- not that I especially need to develop milk ducts but this clearly contradicts what my endo has been telling me.
To personal experience -- and this is early, I'm just a week into prometrium -- it hasn't had a negative effect on my moods as yet and especially, my libido seems to be back!
The one effect of estrogen hrt I have been unhappy about has been a big decrease in desire coupled with a troubling difficulty in reaching orgasm -- yes they've been nicer in some ways but that's's come along with taking more than an hour to get there.
If that's partly androgenic, I think I'm ok with that.
Quote from: SadieBlake on September 16, 2016, 03:28:52 PM
Needless to say I'm also glad to see that recent work, summed up well in the Wikipedia article solidly tying progesterone to breast development -- not that I especially need to develop milk ducts but this clearly contradicts what my endo has been telling me.
That progesterone assists with milk duct formation had been long known. What remains an unknown, is whether this actually provides any real benefit to trans women.
Without a doubt the development of those tissues have made my breasts rounder.
Quote from: RobynD on September 16, 2016, 12:58:36 PM
I have seen no androgenic effects - although my Spironolactone dosage was increased at the same time i added prometrium. Indeed the Wikipedia article on HRT seems to indicate that bio identical progesterones like prometrium are anti-androgenic, while the synthetic ones could be slighly androgenic:
High doses of progestogens exert negative feedback on the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis by activating the progesterone receptor. As a result, they have antigonadotropic properties—that is, they suppress the gonadal production of sex hormones such as androgens. As such, sufficient dosages of progestogens, such as cyproterone acetate, megestrol acetate, medroxyprogesterone acetate, hydroxyprogesterone caproate, and progesterone, can considerably lower androgen levels.
Certain progestins—including 19-nortestosterone derivatives like levonorgestrel, norgestrel, norethisterone, and norethisterone acetate, as well as, to a lesser extent, the 17-hydroxyprogesterone derivative medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA)—have weak androgenic properties because they bind to and activate the androgen receptor similarly to testosterone, and can produce androgenic side effects such as acne, hirsutism, and increased sex drive.[21][22][23] Conversely, certain other progestins, such as cyproterone acetate, megestrol acetate, and drospirenone, bind to and block the activation of the androgen receptor.[2
Oh that's good! That actually explains a lot! ^_^ My spiro dose was not increased when the prometrium was added because my T levels are already so low (7ng/mL or 0.2pmol/L). I was more worried about the prometrium having an effect on my E levels since my E is only around 550pmol/L on a daily basis (about 150 - 160pg/mL) which my E levels are fine (my trough after 15 hours was 114pg/mL or around 440pmol/L) so I was more worried about falling below transition levels but based on what you shared sounds like for me it's a non-issue then! *hugs* I was just worrying over nothing then it sounds like :P
Quote from: SadieBlake on September 16, 2016, 03:28:52 PM
^^ yes that's one of the things I've read as well as quite a lot of data from older studies about androgenic and health effects from other forms of progestins that aren't shared by the micronized form according to more recent research.
Needless to say I'm also glad to see that recent work, summed up well in the Wikipedia article solidly tying progesterone to breast development -- not that I especially need to develop milk ducts but this clearly contradicts what my endo has been telling me.
To personal experience -- and this is early, I'm just a week into prometrium -- it hasn't had a negative effect on my moods as yet and especially, my libido seems to be back!
The one effect of estrogen hrt I have been unhappy about has been a big decrease in desire coupled with a troubling difficulty in reaching orgasm -- yes they've been nicer in some ways but that's's come along with taking more than an hour to get there.
If that's partly androgenic, I think I'm ok with that.
I'm only a week into my prometrium as well, since my doctor started me on it at my 6 months a week ago. So far my boobs have been pretty achey throughout the week this week. It's also made me super tired as well. But I'm glad there is little to no androgen effects from it
About progesterone...
Volume 18a of Elsevier's New Comprehensive
Biochemistry, Titled 'Hormones and Their Actions, Part I', editors BA
Cooke, RJB King and HJ van der Molen. Published 1988. ISBN
0-444-80996-1. Dewey 612.405.
Chapter 14: Progesterone action and receptors, by
Nancy L Krett, Dean P Edwards and Kathryn B Horwitz, of the University
of Colorado Health Sciences Centre, Denver.
"Progesterone also acts synergistically with estrogen in the normal
development of the breast. Estrogen stimulates cell mitosis and growth
of the ductal system, while lobular development and differentiation is
dependent on progesterone. When estrogen is administered in the absence
of progesterone, the tubular system proliferates and the ducts dilate
resulting in the formation of cysts and fibroses. These changes are
comparable to those observed in fibrocystic disease and are suppressed
by progestins, so that normal breast development requires that estrogen
and progesterone be administered together.[2-4]"
"Depending on the physiological state, progesterone may antagonise
estrogen action. One effect of estradiol is to increase the levels of
progesterone receptors (PR). Binding of progesterone to its receptors
then leads not only to progestational effects, but also antiestrogenic
effects by causing a reduction in estrogen secretion into the systemic
circulation; by stimulating the enzyme 17B-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase
which converts estradiol to the less active estrogen estrone; and by
lowering the levels of estrogen receptors in cells thereby decreasing
the ability of target tissue to respond to estradiol [4]."
Hum Reprod. 1999 Mar;14(3):606-10.
"Natural progesterone is devoid of any androgenic activity that might compromise lipoprotein metabolism or induce teratogenicity. Moreover, it probably has a direct beneficial effect on blood vessels »
Climacteric. 2013 Aug;16 Suppl 1:69-78.
"Natural progesterone and some of its derivatives, as
well as the non-ethinylated drospirenone and dienogest, do
not exert any androgenic effect and have no negative effect
on the lipids or on the endothelial cells 1,70 ."
Climacteric. 2013 Aug;16 Suppl 1:44-53.
"Natural, 'body-identical' progesterone, devoid of any androgenic as well as glucocorticoid activities but being slightly hypotensive due to its antimineralocorticoid activity, appears to be the optimal progestogen in terms of cardiovascular effects, blood pressure, VTE, probably stroke and even breast cancer »
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2003 Apr;58(4):506-12.
"In this study the effects of progesterone, with no significant androgen-receptor affinity are compared to desogestrel, a synthetic gestogen with relatively low affinity for the androgen receptor, on gonadotrophin secretion in normal men."
"Both progesterone and desogestrel administration resulted in decreases in the concentration of both LH and FSH secretion, as well as testosterone. Analysis of the pulsatile nature of LH secretion indicated that both treatments reduced LH pulse amplitude, and that progesterone reduced LH pulse frequency. Progesterone, but not desogestrel, treatment also reduced the increase in LH secretion in response to GnRH."
Fertil Steril. 2002 Jun;77(6):1125-7.
"To determine whether the use of oral micronized progesterone (OMP) to induce withdrawal bleeding in women suspected of having polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) alters circulating androgen levels. »
"The mean values of TT, FT, SHBG, DHEAS, A4, and 17-OHP did not change with OMP administration."
"We conclude that the administration of OMP (...) to induce withdrawal bleeding in women with PCOS does not significantly alter circulating androgen or 17-OHP levels, and can be used to time blood sampling in these patients."
The dose used was relatively high.
Steroids. 2011 Jun;76(7):636-52.
"Prog has been reported to lack androgenic or estrogenic activity [11], [52] and [53], while possessing anti-estrogenic and anti-mineralocorticoid properties, as well as weak glucocorticoid-like properties [54],[55] and [56]. However, some of the biological activities reported in the literature are not consistent (Table 2). For example, some report that Prog has weak androgenic properties, and no glucocorticoid activity."
Contraception 62 (2000) 29–38
"The results showed that(1) drospirenone and progesterone inhibit aldosterone-induced mineralocorticoid activity and weakly induce reporter gene transcription on their own; (2) both progestogens have no androgenic activity but display antiandrogenic activity in terms of inhibition of androgen-receptor–mediated transcription in a dose-dependent manner [10]. »
BUT, in Table 2, progesterone is shown to have negligible anti-androgenic effect at therapeutic doses.
"this direct antiantiandrogenic effect is in addition to the more indirect antiandrogenic effect of progestogens in general, that is mainly explained by the suppression of androgen production from the adrenals or ovaries."
Quote from: KayXo on September 18, 2016, 08:59:00 PM
About progesterone...
Volume 18a of Elsevier's New Comprehensive
Biochemistry, Titled 'Hormones and Their Actions, Part I', editors BA
Cooke, RJB King and HJ van der Molen. Published 1988. ISBN
0-444-80996-1. Dewey 612.405.
Chapter 14: Progesterone action and receptors, by
Nancy L Krett, Dean P Edwards and Kathryn B Horwitz, of the University
of Colorado Health Sciences Centre, Denver.
"Progesterone also acts synergistically with estrogen in the normal
development of the breast. Estrogen stimulates cell mitosis and growth
of the ductal system, while lobular development and differentiation is
dependent on progesterone. When estrogen is administered in the absence
of progesterone, the tubular system proliferates and the ducts dilate
resulting in the formation of cysts and fibroses. These changes are
comparable to those observed in fibrocystic disease and are suppressed
by progestins, so that normal breast development requires that estrogen
and progesterone be administered together.[2-4]"
"Depending on the physiological state, progesterone may antagonise
estrogen action. One effect of estradiol is to increase the levels of
progesterone receptors (PR). Binding of progesterone to its receptors
then leads not only to progestational effects, but also antiestrogenic
effects by causing a reduction in estrogen secretion into the systemic
circulation; by stimulating the enzyme 17B-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase
which converts estradiol to the less active estrogen estrone; and by
lowering the levels of estrogen receptors in cells thereby decreasing
the ability of target tissue to respond to estradiol [4]."
Hum Reprod. 1999 Mar;14(3):606-10.
"Natural progesterone is devoid of any androgenic activity that might compromise lipoprotein metabolism or induce teratogenicity. Moreover, it probably has a direct beneficial effect on blood vessels »
Climacteric. 2013 Aug;16 Suppl 1:69-78.
"Natural progesterone and some of its derivatives, as
well as the non-ethinylated drospirenone and dienogest, do
not exert any androgenic effect and have no negative effect
on the lipids or on the endothelial cells 1,70 ."
Climacteric. 2013 Aug;16 Suppl 1:44-53.
"Natural, 'body-identical' progesterone, devoid of any androgenic as well as glucocorticoid activities but being slightly hypotensive due to its antimineralocorticoid activity, appears to be the optimal progestogen in terms of cardiovascular effects, blood pressure, VTE, probably stroke and even breast cancer »
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2003 Apr;58(4):506-12.
"In this study the effects of progesterone, with no significant androgen-receptor affinity are compared to desogestrel, a synthetic gestogen with relatively low affinity for the androgen receptor, on gonadotrophin secretion in normal men."
"Both progesterone and desogestrel administration resulted in decreases in the concentration of both LH and FSH secretion, as well as testosterone. Analysis of the pulsatile nature of LH secretion indicated that both treatments reduced LH pulse amplitude, and that progesterone reduced LH pulse frequency. Progesterone, but not desogestrel, treatment also reduced the increase in LH secretion in response to GnRH."
Fertil Steril. 2002 Jun;77(6):1125-7.
"To determine whether the use of oral micronized progesterone (OMP) to induce withdrawal bleeding in women suspected of having polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) alters circulating androgen levels. »
"The mean values of TT, FT, SHBG, DHEAS, A4, and 17-OHP did not change with OMP administration."
"We conclude that the administration of OMP (...) to induce withdrawal bleeding in women with PCOS does not significantly alter circulating androgen or 17-OHP levels, and can be used to time blood sampling in these patients."
The dose used was relatively high.
Steroids. 2011 Jun;76(7):636-52.
"Prog has been reported to lack androgenic or estrogenic activity [11], [52] and [53], while possessing anti-estrogenic and anti-mineralocorticoid properties, as well as weak glucocorticoid-like properties [54],[55] and [56]. However, some of the biological activities reported in the literature are not consistent (Table 2). For example, some report that Prog has weak androgenic properties, and no glucocorticoid activity."
Contraception 62 (2000) 29–38
"The results showed that(1) drospirenone and progesterone inhibit aldosterone-induced mineralocorticoid activity and weakly induce reporter gene transcription on their own; (2) both progestogens have no androgenic activity but display antiandrogenic activity in terms of inhibition of androgen-receptor–mediated transcription in a dose-dependent manner [10]. »
BUT, in Table 2, progesterone is shown to have negligible anti-androgenic effect at therapeutic doses.
"this direct antiantiandrogenic effect is in addition to the more indirect antiandrogenic effect of progestogens in general, that is mainly explained by the suppression of androgen production from the adrenals or ovaries."
I'm not sure I understood half of what you said. I get, it helps with breast development and has no androgenic effects, but can inhibit androgenic somewhat, but it also has little to no effect on estrogen in the body.
It's anti-androgenic in those who still have their ovaries or testes because it reduces testes' production of testosterone, for instance. But, the effect is negligible when progesterone is taken orally as doses are usually too mild. The effect is significant when taken by injection BUT this form of administration is inconvenient as it requires daily injections due to short half-life.
Progesterone is somewhat anti-estrogenic because it reduces estrogen receptors and increases conversion of estradiol (the strongest form of estrogen) to estrone (a weaker form of estrogen).
Quote from: KayXo on September 19, 2016, 09:39:56 AM
It's anti-androgenic in those who still have their ovaries or testes because it reduces testes' production of testosterone, for instance. But, the effect is negligible when progesterone is taken orally as doses are usually too mild. The effect is significant when taken by injection BUT this form of administration is inconvenient as it requires daily injections due to short half-life.
Progesterone is somewhat anti-estrogenic because it reduces estrogen receptors and increases conversion of estradiol (the strongest form of estrogen) to estrone (a weaker form of estrogen).
well I'm on a normal dose of bio-P so it's doing something. I have a sensitivity to estrogen and Progesterone, so the doses I have may have more of an effect because it takes less to cause changes. But the main thing I was worried about is how it would effect my estrogen levels. normally it's 150 - 160 pg/ml but if I miss a day it goes down to 114pg/ml so I was more concerned that it would impact my levels in a big way, but from reading and your response, basically it says it shouldn't hurt my levels much at all, if any. But since being on P, my boobs have ached more, I've become more tired after taking it, so it has an effect, whatever it is and my boobs have been different too, they feel rounder and more perky, but I'm unsure, too soon to say. But in the end, the HRT is going to do the job and I just have to be patient and wait for everything to develop over the next few years.