Hi! I have been post-op for many years and have been living stealth. I am a very petite Asian and Caucasian mix so I never had problems passing look wise - though I still had some minor FFS tweaking. But my voice has always been my achilles heel, I do pass most of the time even on the phone but I have to put sooooooooo muchhhhhhh effort and when my guards are off my voice falls back to a very male voice which contrasts my petite dainty sweet look. For some reason voice wise I usually pass with most races but not with the Asians; Asians have a keen radar on reading/ clocking voices. Years ago the VFS were not as reliable as it is today. My lawyer who helped me with my legal transition is also a post op who had the laser vfs. She stopped me from doing any vfs before. Her voice was left weak and sounded like a very old lady even after many years. But I believe the surgery has improved tremendously. Hence, I am back on my quest for a more passable voice.
I tried contacting Yeson and Dr. Haben's office. I got a response from Haben's office next day; after weeks of waiting for a response I got one from Yeson- Jessie. I researched and decided to go for Yeson. Emailed back and forth and Jessie gave me the go signal to buy plane tickets, wire money etc. After having bought plane tickets Jessie emailed me with the requirements for surgery. Being a medical professional I am familiar with labs and I am aware I have had high liver enzymes sgpt/ sgot in the recent past. Asian doctors for some reasons are always into that liver enzyme thing unlike in the west. So I emailed Jessie, no response for over a week. I was getting frustrated so I emailed again several times and finally got a response. She stated that they cannot do the surgery if they check it in South Korea and it is still elevated. i haven't had new labs yet but I decided to abandon Yeson for good due to my frustration. Luckily my travel agent was able to cancel our plane ticket reservations; dunno how! I just told Jessie to disclose the surgery requirements or ask your clients to get labs in their country of orgin before asking them to buy plane tickets.
I am not saying that Yeson's surgery results are bad. Actually I have heard so many good results online hence I decided to go with them. But being a healthcare provider myself, I am just not comfortable trying to contact and contact my doctor/ clinic and get no response for prolonged periods of time; my pet peeve. What more if something bad happens post-op!!! An acquaintance of mine had surgery with Yeson though no harm was done to her voice, her voice did not change at all. When I told her my experience with Yeson all she said was I told you so. I have phobia of going overseas and having post op complications after; been there done that.
So now I will try to schedule surgery with Dr. Haben, wish me luck! For Haben girls:
- what labs do Haben require pre-op?
- days required to stay in NY?
- if asked to stay longer, which hotel/ motel can you recommend?
- is there an airport shuttle available?
Thanks in advance!
I actually didn't have any labs run for 10 year before my visit but I have never had health issues. I have had labs run after that and as I suspected, they were very good. If you know you have issues, check with them in advance. They use a regular hospital for the surgery so they should be able to deal with most abnormal conditions if they are aware of them in advance.
Mondays is fly day, Tuesday is pre op exam, Wednesday is surgery and Thursday is exam/trip home. If you live out of the country, you will need to stay a full 7 days before you may leave.
I was only there for the four days and I spent one night in the hospital for recovery. The Marriott is a full service hotel. They have a shuttle service which I didn't use but could have. To see Dr Haben you will need a cab but go to the front desk and they will have one for you before you finish asking. The cab cost about $70 but he waited for me so I added a $30 tip.
Food is available in the hotel and I thought it was very good but there is fast food within walking distance. I was only able to eat 3 meals before surgery so used the Marriott for food.
As for follow up, Dr Haben was a little slow providing my 3 month review but he was on a trip at the time and as soon as he returned, he plowed through them. After that, we exchanged a few emails and he was always very responsive with replies.
Thanks Dena! I am based in Los angeles.... No, I don't have any health conditions... Elevated liver enzymes are pretty common due to diet , hormones, meds etc. ... Just so happen i brought it up being a RN.
- Dena, when you stayed in the hospital were you still checked in the Marriot or did you have to check out and checked in again after? Were you by yourself?
- did you bring your valuables with you in the hospital or left it in the hotel?
- how far is Dr. Haben's office/ hospital to Marriot? How far is Marriot to the airport?
-$70 taxi- one way?
I checked out of the hotel the morning of the surgery as I didn't have anybody with me and needed to spend the last night in the hospital. If you have somebody with you, you can leave the hospital after the surgery but somebody needs to keep an eye on you for the first 24 hours after surgery. If not your traveling companion, then the hospital. When I left the hospital, first stop was Dr Haben, then the airport.
I had my valuables with me but don't bring many. Security in the hospital gives you a small bag to put them in and they hold them till after surgery. I was able to fit my digital SLR 35mm camera, my wallet and my cell phone in the bag but that was about it. The rest of the luggage was delivered to the room to wait for you. With forethought I didn't bring my laptop and did all my web surfing on my cell phone.
Dr Haben is about a mile east of the airport. The hospital and Marriott are about 20 miles north of the airport. The hospital will pick you up from the hotel the morning of the surgery and will deliver you to Dr Haben from the hospital the day after the surgery.
$70 both ways and he waited while I had my appointment. I considered it a real bargain. You may not.
As for air fare, you might look at South West as they fly into both location. If you would prefer another airline check them out as well as South West is a cattle hauler and I barely fit in the seats. I am 6'2" and the seats were spaced for somebody several inches shorter than me.
Thank you soooooo much Dena! .....Called, scheduled, paid the deposit - no hassle, no drama no waiting for weeks for email response etc....
I think you will like Dr Haben. He enjoys his work and will take all the time you need to answer your questions. My surgery was a bit complicated so I had additional questions both before and after surgery and all the questions were answered. In addition, I think for me it was about 3 weeks from laying my cash down until surgery. Yes, I hit a lucky window but it worked out well.
After hearing more voice samples I am leaning more on getting the CTA ... My voice is really not bad when I am really trying to sound fem but I always slip up.... if I am going to do it might as well do it all in... I am worried about the several premature breaking/ disintegration of the sutures which is making me think of doing CTA.... HouseHippo's samples are really stellar!
- I read Haben's pros and cons.... Are there any other big cons why I shouldnt do CTA?
- how much longer shloud I stay in NY if I am doing CTA?
- will the CTA fee include d additional hotel stay?
- will Haben remove stitches post op day 7?
Failure of the sutures is rare if you follow the after surgery care instruction. If you wish to improve the odds, I suggest you do what I did and practice not coughing or clearing your throat a week or two before surgery. It really help as I discovered that chocolate was something I needed to avoid as it caused me to clear my throat. A few mistakes will happen and they won't harm the surgery but you should avoid mistakes as much as possible.
I didn't do CTA because of the range limitations it places on you voice however had Dr Haben recommended it, I would have done it. Depending on your original voice, it may not be needed. If your starting voice is in the 140hz range or higher, VFS will give you a sufficient boost that you will not be able to hit the lower register. CTA should only be considered if you had a relatively low male voice and need a larger pitch shift. Also note that if you elect to have CTA, that will be combined with VFS. It would be very rare that Dr Haben would give CTA without VFS.
If you have CTA, your stay will be the same. You will have additional post surgical care instruction as you may not shower until the stitches are removed but your stay will be no longer.
The CTA charge is only for the additional time in surgery as no additional hotel time is required.
If you hang around the additional 7 days, Dr Haben will remove the stitches free of charge and most likely take another look at the VFS before you go home. If you don't stay, he will give you instructions on how the stitches are to be removed and your doctor can remove them. He uses a special stitch where you get a hold of one end and they all come out and it's something most doctors are not aware of.
Also note that you may still require some of your trained voice to obtain the proper resonance as both surgeries only change the pitch. Dr Haben's site clearly states that a surgical voice is only 50% and therapy is the other 50% of the final voice.
I'm now two months post-op VFS from Dr. Haben and I can say I agree with what Dena said about CTAs affecting your vocal range. Prior to VFS, I had a little over two octave singing range. Post VFS, it's now about one and a half octaves. The lowest I can go right now is about 155Hz (D#3) where pre-VFS I could go down to A2.
When I had my first VFS surgery with Dr. Haben, I had the triple (glotto, CTA, trache shave). The glotto failed so it was like I basically had the CTA alone. With just the CTA, I had effectively no change in my voice (this may be incorrect, as my friends say my voice seemed slightly higher, perhaps one semitone, which is negligible). So what this all means is don't just get the CTA without the glottoplasty!
Wow thank you so much girls for the input.... When I said i was going to get the CTA i mean the combo with the glottoplasty instead of just glotto..... I don't have adam's apple. But Geekgirl's answer made me rethink it.... Actually your experience- Geekgirl and Kwala's experience made me think of doing the combo CTA and glotto instead of just glotto thinking the glotto by itself isn't that realible. But now that I know that ur failed surgery included CTA too I guess it can fail either way.... Wow thank you soooo much! I guess the glottoplasty by itself can help me.....I don't really sing so that's a non issue to me.
How do I attach share voice recordings here?
You go to one of the voice sites and upload the voice sample. It will give you link which you bring back here and include in your post. Some sites delete the sample after a given period of time and others don't. One of these days, I plan on accumulating my voice sample and making an archive that can be retrieved from drop box as all of my samples time deleted.
Hi,
This is my regular voice not trying too hard to be feminine but with the consciousness that I have to sound female... Constructive criticisms/ comments are welcome on how to better improve my voice. English is not my first language. Thanks :)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uli0pff1n57x7j5/Voicemail1.m4a?dl=0
The voice is quite good. The inflection is sufficiently feminine and the pitch while toward the lower end of the feminine range is sufficiently high to be clearly out of the masculine range. The voice sounds like an adult woman, possibly in her 30's. This sample should easily pass the telephone test.
Oh, really. Thanks! That's good to hear. I never really had feedbacks before since I don't have Trans friends in real life that can give me feedbacks. It can be sad and isolating living stealth sometimes. Though I have a bunch of cis girlfriends some knows but such things doesn't really interests them to really spend time and interest talking much about it.
I find that to be somewhat of a problem on the site as well. I had extensive voice therapy from Hollywoods best, the one that Hollywood sent their actors to when they had issues. He taught me how to listen for problems in other people voices, trans or CIS as well as what the solution was to the problem. My sister was having voice problems and from the sound of it I knew she needed somebody to take a look see. Sure enough she had been abusing her voice and developed nodules on the cords. Fortunately, surgery isn't required to correct it.
Quote from: Miss Lux on September 18, 2016, 11:50:27 PM
So now I will try to schedule surgery with Dr. Haben, wish me luck! For Haben girls:
- what labs do Haben require pre-op?
- days required to stay in NY?
- if asked to stay longer, which hotel/ motel can you recommend?
- is there an airport shuttle available?
Thanks in advance!
For both pre-op visits I met with Dr. Haben, no labs were required. It may be because I signed something that gave them access to my medical records.
Technically, you should be there at a mininum 3 days (or 3 days and 2 nights) because the first day is the pre-op day where Dr. Haben examines your throat and makes you read The Rainbow Passage and singing an E sound without placing your voice. You'll get some numbing spray to make the procedure of him inserting a scope down your throat easier. I've always hated the taste of the spray. Take some time to poke around Rochester and find a place to eat, but don't stuff yourself! I had a slice of pizza from Pizza Stop. Normally when I visit a city or town, I try to find a great place to eat, but I didn't want to stuff myself before surgery day.
The second day (or morning rather) is surgery day so the package deal that Dr. Haben's office sells gives you limo service transport to and from the hospital from The Marriott Airport. I've always found the limo drivers to be friendly people. Please note that you have a limited time to recuperate. I'm a slow healer and feel nauseous from anesthesia, so I needed to stay in the hospital until 4pm or so (my surgery was the first one in the morning so I had to be there at 6am). You will probably not feel like eating after your surgery, but it's a good idea to keep sipping cold water. I managed to eat some kind of chicken soup from somewhere. Whoever is accompanying you to your surgery should be prepared to assist you with acquiring food and walking with you so you don't end up falling.
The third day (actually just the morning) you visit Dr. Haben again for a post-op visit where he again scopes your throat (more of the yucky numbing spray) and gets you to silently think about singing an E sound. He show you a video of what your vocal cords currently look like. He will also hand you a photo of your throat from the surgery procedure (this is probably a new thing since I didn't get one the first time I had my surgery with him). You may have feelings of "Oh, ->-bleeped-<-! What have I done?!!" but you'll need to keep calm and rest yourself for the next week or so and learn how to keep silent and not to use your voice to communicate. For me, I had to not speak for a month which was very difficult since I'm a blabbermouth. This surgery was more challenging for me than my GRS, my rhinoplasty, and my breast aug all put together. The cool thing is communicating by hand gestures and writing or pointing to signs is not as bad as you think. I was able to use a text-to-speech app and make calls on the phone that way and people actually communicated with me over the phone without thinking twice about it!
The down side? If you need to use your voice at work, it will be especially difficult to do so. One of my jobs is as a yoga teacher. I've not taught a single class since my surgery. I've been offered numerous opportunities to teach but I had to decline due to my voice healing (I had one of the most powerful voices in the yoga field at one time... now I sound like a quiet Winnie the Pooh, but that will surely change as I heal).
If you need to stay longer and can afford it, I'd say get more nights at the Marriott. It's actually a really nice hotel that surpassed all of my expectations. I *think* the Marriott van can take you to the airport, probably for free.
I listened to your voice sample and think it's quite good. I can't believe you'd have any trouble passing over the phone with that voice, but if you say that you have to put tremendous effort into it to get it to sound that way, then I can relate. Many of us started with not so good voices and hope that we could attain an acceptable sounding voice. It would be nice to just wake up in the morning and not even think about placing the voice.
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences.... Mwaaah mwaaaah!!!
Hi Miss Lux,
I am Asian like you, although I am 100% Korean and was born in South Korea. I moved to the USA when I was a child and am now a naturalized US citizen. I am also pretty slim, but kind of tall too, for a Korean woman... 5'7", 125 lbs. In everyday life, I don't get clocked at all, but feel like I get clocked all the time when I'm around other Asians, such as at an Asian grocery store... actually, people do not come up to me to say that they clocked me, but I just feel like they can tell just by looking at me. I get a lot more stares. Or maybe I'm just paranoid, I don't know...
Anyway, regarding Yeson, I don't know him or have gone to him, but I am very familiar with Korean culture, being a Korean myself. :) So the interactions you had with his practice does not surprise me. I hate to say this about my own people, but Korean people, in general, are just rude. And they are especially rude if they think they are better than you or don't think a relationship with you will benefit them directly. I suppose this is true for all cultures, but it is amplified in Korean culture.
Now I'm kind of speculating at this point, but since Yeson's practice is so successful, I get the feeling that he's not really willing to work with people like you who have potential health issues that they feel will complicate things and/or damage their reputation and/or success rate. And again, Korean people tend to be rude and don't respect traditional western standards of courteous conduct with strangers (unlike Japanese people, who are extremely polite to strangers).
I heard your voice sample, and I think you sound very feminine. For me, my natural male voice was already fairly high (160-170 Hz), so it didn't require as much work to get it to sound feminine. Mostly I just had to work on resonance and intonation (which was pretty difficult actually). But I worked, in person, with a professional voice trainer (Liz Hearns at http://www.thevoicelabinc.com/). Across several months of weekly private, personal voice training, I was able to achieve a reasonably feminine voice.
Funny story: after I had done my legal name change, I was calling my credit card companies to change my legal name. Some of the customer service reps kept insisting that they needed to speak to my husband or the primary male account holder, despite my insisting I was the same person. I was actually surprised that my voice passed that well, and realized the professional voice training was more helpful than I had thought.
So, what I'm trying to say is, have you tried working with an experienced, professionally trained voice instructor? It will take some time, and some money, and a lot of practice on your own free time, but I think it's worth it. And it's definitely less expensive and less risky than voice surgery. Or do you have a naturally low vocal range that makes it more difficult to train your voice without surgery?
Thanks Emily... i wish they have that kind of voice lessons in Los Angeles... i've been searching before for trans voice lessons but could'nt find one closeby but recently I've seen a few...I think I'll go for the lessons after surgery... I dnt really get a lot of feedbacks about my voice since I am stealth but like you I can intuitively sense it when Someone notices that my voice doesnt match the way I look but Pretty much pass almost always but I know in myself that i need some help from vfs... Ive tried several DIY voice feminization videos but I don't think it really helped. I think I am someone you can call as "tone deaf" ... I improved my voice more from research and intellectual approach like tongue placement etc and it worked to some extent but i have to put so much effort and it completely fails me when I have extremes of emotions or gets too relaxed or comfortable with the persom I am talking to.... Btw I am a skinny petite -5'2 Asian Meztiza/ mix so I guess people are expecting to hear a higher pitched voice .
You are only 5'2"? Wow! I'm so jealous of your height. At 5'7", I feel like a giant amongst other Asians, and I'm very self-conscious about it. :(
Regarding your "tone deaf" comment, did you have any musical training as a child? I played a lot of violin when I was a child and through high school, and I think that helped me a lot with my own feminine vocal training. It certainly helps to have a musical background, whether it's instrumental or vocal training early in life. I can understand how it could be difficult otherwise.
Also, regarding the DIY voice feminization videos... at first I tried the Andrea James DVD, which didn't work for me at all. I also tried the Kathe Perez 30-day crash course, but it didn't really help either. It did lay down the foundation for my future training with my private instructor (so I guess it was kind of worth it, in a way), but the Kathe Perez 30-day course by itself did not end up giving me a feminine voice at all. Not even close.
Regardless of what you end up deciding, I hope only the best for you! You are already very lucky to be both slim and short! I can't imagine how much more wonderful it will be for you to have a voice that matches how you feel inside! :)
Just to give you some perspective, if you haven't read up on my story, Dr. Haben performed what other doctors have called a "hack job" on my voice which has left me with permanent scarring after his glottoplasty. Two corrective operations later and I finally have some volume back but I no longer have access to my higher range and my cords are stiff and permanently scarred. So, although I am louder and more easily understood, I still have incredible hoarseness. I sound like a man with a bad cold. I wish you luck with whatever you decide, and I won't discount the fact that Dr. Haben has produced many successful outcomes. I'd just like to pass on the fact that even with modern techniques, things can go horribly wrong. I hope that doesn't sound too negative, I just thought I should mention it because if I had read about a case like mine I would have left well enough alone.
Kwala, I'm sooo sorry to hear about what happened with your voice surgery. There is always a risk with any surgery (even FFS and BA), and I clearly remember signing the multitude of consent forms before my FFS surgery that explained all the possible negative outcomes and side effects, including... death!!
Personally, I just feel that voice surgery is too risky and should be done only as an absolute last resort. IMO it's better to train for months or even years with a vocal trainer or two, or three, even over Skype, before moving on to surgery as a last-ditch effort.
Kwala, may I ask when your initial vocal surgery was performed? Maybe Dr. Haben has improved his techniques since then?
Emily, I agree with you absolutely, especially now. Voice surgery should be a last option. In my emails with Dr. Haben he basically told me that, other than the normal risks with anesthesia, the worst outcome he has experienced in a patient is no pitch alteration, or not as much as the patient had hoped for. I wish I could say that my surgery was ten years ago and his technique had advanced but, sadly, it was only last October that I had my operation. I'll reach the one year mark in a few weeks.
I have been meeting with a speech pathologist to help work through the scarring but even she admitted to me that the hoarseness will most likely never completely go away. My cords are just too scarred and not physically able to vibrate normally.
Believe me, I really, REALLY hate to come here to post about a horrific experience and I don't want to scare people! I just think it's important to know the risks. No waiver I signed ever mentioned anything like this.
Thanks Emily... Thanks Kwala....Kwala, I read your experience and geekgirl's experience before deciding... It made me rethink and delayed my decision, which I think is for the better and your experiences truly gives our sisters a better look on what they are getting into amidst the raving promotions and positive reviews....but I guess this is something that I believe I really need and for me it is just Yeson or Haben...I was truly turned off with Yeson's unprofessionalism from the very start..... So I guess Haben it is...I just hope my experience would be a positive one.....
Emily, yes I am just 5'2 and I always wear heels all the time.... 5'7 is my dream/ ideal height! If only we can exchange heights hahaha.... I think a height of 5'7 wld have opened more doors for me... I think 5'7 is the perfect ht for a girl not too tall not too short... You can model, u can be statueque if you want just wear heels, you'll look good with flats too... Easier to be a head turner beauty, it's modelesque etc hihihi... I had piano lessons before but i think music isn't really something I have any competency lol... I had D Andrea James- too technical for me dint help at all same with the Kathy Perez... The Melanie Philipps helped a little together with the you tube videos... I got d best results from researching on tongue placement and mouth shaping etc....
Quote from: Miss Lux on September 24, 2016, 01:00:10 AM
Emily, yes I am just 5'2 and I always wear heels all the time.... 5'7 is my dream/ ideal height! If only we can exchange heights hahaha.... I think a height of 5'7 wld have opened more doors for me... I think 5'7 is the perfect ht for a girl not too tall not too short... You can model, u can be statueque if you want just wear heels, you'll look good with flats too... Easier to be a head turner beauty, it's modelesque etc
LOL! Thank you for saying that, it really lifted my spirits. :) Maybe we always wish to have what we cannot have... hehe.
Ok, I looked back at some of your earlier posts in this thread and understand that you live near the LA area? I have a very dear Asian friend who lives in Newport Beach. She occasionally comes to Chicago for professional conferences, so we've met in-person too. Anyway, she is also a TS woman, and she has the most natural sounding female voice! Way better than me! In fact, she told me a story once about how she was talking to someone in person, face to face, and told them that she is transgender. And they were like, "
what? you're going to transition from being a woman to a man?" HAHAHA!! Her appearances and voice passes THAT well!
She trained with a local voice trainer, and has nothing but praise for her vocal instructor. I'll contact my friend and ask for the voice trainer's contact information. Then I'll pass it along to you. You may yet have some success with voice training, and an excellent one who happens to be nearby! :)
Thanks Emily! Though Newport is around 2/3 hrs drive from where I am but maybe i can do skype lessons :) btw I am all set for my vfs - paid deposit, plane etc but I know I'll need voice lessons even after surgery....
For the girls that had the VFS can you please give me tips on preventing coughing? I am really worried with premature suture breakage....
Start now figuring out the foods that may cause a cough, spicy hot food or chocolate are ones to watch out for. Soups and drinking a bunch of fluid help.
Keep plenty of ice water available and take small sips, warm it in your mouth to cool then swallow. Warm beverages like tea or coffee may help as well but if it's hot, allow it to cool before swallowing.
Avoid cold dry air and if it's a big issue for you, you might look into an inexpensive humidifier.
When mucus builds up which it will, lean forward and exhale with your vocal cords open.
Dr Haben will give you some really strong cough medicine that will last for seven days. Don't overdose on it because it's really bad stuff but if you have issues with coughing, request a second bottle before you leave. I only used one dose because Dr Haben suggested I do it before my flight and that was a big mistake, I wanted to put my head down and in the small seats center seat, there was no place to do it. By the way, you will have to check your bag with the cough medicine so you will need to take a dose before checking the bag.
Sleep on your side and use the pillow to keep your mouth closed. Breathing through your mouth will make you want to cough.
Start now learning how to suppress coughs. I spent the week before surgery resisting the urge to cough to reduce the risk of slipping up after surgery.
Most of all, the sutures can take some abuse and Dr. Haben's words are control the things you can and don't worry about the things you can't. The few failed surgeries I have seen so far were because the folds didn't heal together correctly and not because of suture failure however movement of the folds against each other might prevent proper healing.
Lots and lots (and lots) of water!
Wishing you well during your surgery and beyond :)
An additional thought. I went into surgery knowing that I would not exit with a perfect voice. Dr Haben found that my vocal cords weren't the same length and it would result in a roughness in my voice. This is something that I appeared to work around in my male voice so I felt it was an acceptable risk. A secondary condition for me was with my GCS. They ran a wire from the top of my vagina out through my abdomen in order to retain the depth for the 6 days after surgery. It was referred to as the Biber belly button. After the wire was removed, I had proud flesh at that spot for many (like 20) years after surgery. I suspected that could be the case for my voice surgery as well but I haven't had a camera down there for a look. All of this was beyond Dr Haben's control and I was aware of that before surgery.
Quote from: Dena on September 24, 2016, 09:24:45 AM
Start now learning how to suppress coughs. I spent the week before surgery resisting the urge to cough to reduce the risk of slipping up after surgery.
Quote from: kwala on September 24, 2016, 09:25:04 AM
Lots and lots (and lots) of water!
These two points are actually really important in training and developing a female voice too. When you are training to develop a feminine voice, you're working out the muscles in and around your throat. Coughing and clearing your throat actually ends up building up more mucus around your vocal folds, which makes you want to cough again. It's a vicious cycle. Instead, you must learn to suppress your natural instinct to cough and drink lots of water instead. Drinking water regularly all day long will keep the vocal folds hydrated without allowing mucus to build.
Incidentally, this is the same type of advice given to professional singers (because they are working out their vocal muscles too!) Coughing/clearing your throat is just a bad thing no matter how you use your voice.
My voice trainer taught these concepts to me. Not only does she have years of experience training trans women (and trans men) in developing their authentic voice, she also has years of experience instructing cis singers. In addition, she's professionally trained both as a singer and in private instruction techniques (she has a Master's degree in Music, with a focus on Vocal Performance and Pedagogy). She carries a huge water bottle with her all the time and drinks constantly. At one meeting, she said that she hadn't coughed or cleared her throat, not even once, in 3+ weeks.
As trans women, we are also "singers", in a way. So take these concepts to heart and learn to stop throat clearing. :)
For additional information about throat clearing and how it's damaging to your voice, read this article:
http://www.sltinfo.com/stop-throat-clearing/
Thank you so much for all the tips!!!!
Dena - we are not allowed to take cough syrup in our carry on bag?
You are not allowed large quantities of any liquid. Check the rules as I am not sure what the restrictions are. I was going by what Dr Haben said and I didn't want to risk losing the bottle to security as it couldn't be replaced. They sell mini shampoo and tooth paste in the drug stores that you may take in carry on. If you have CTA there are weight lifting restrictions so you may not be able to get you luggage in the overhead. In addition, I had to spend over 2 hours in Florida on the return trip and I didn't want to be dragging my luggage all around the airport.
Thanks!
Quote from: Miss Lux on September 23, 2016, 03:42:37 AM
Thanks Emily... i wish they have that kind of voice lessons in Los Angeles... i've been searching before for trans voice lessons but could'nt find one closeby but recently I've seen a few...I think I'll go for the lessons after surgery... I dnt really get a lot of feedbacks about my voice since I am stealth but like you I can intuitively sense it when Someone notices that my voice doesnt match the way I look but Pretty much pass almost always but I know in myself that i need some help from vfs... Ive tried several DIY voice feminization videos but I don't think it really helped. I think I am someone you can call as "tone deaf" ... I improved my voice more from research and intellectual approach like tongue placement etc and it worked to some extent but i have to put so much effort and it completely fails me when I have extremes of emotions or gets too relaxed or comfortable with the persom I am talking to.... Btw I am a skinny petite -5'2 Asian Meztiza/ mix so I guess people are expecting to hear a higher pitched voice .
Like every surgery, VFS is such a personal thing. I know an Asian transgirl in the Philly community who is 5'2, really petite, pretty, and has a really deep voice. She's never bothered to correct it and probably never will because she has physical gifts that many transgirls don't. When she speaks, she pitches her voice up and acts very demure and anime-like, which works for her look. She's never been clocked. Occasionally, her unprocessed voice creeps out, but nobody cares because for the first few paragraphs of speech, she's already convinced people she's female.
It's that first impression that causes us to pass or not pass. But I sympathize with you. I had to really work on my voice to get it from bad to somewhat okay. At least now with VFS, I have a little bit of a head start so I can turn sort of okay to good.
Geekgirl,
I read your VfS experience and listened to your voice updates..... your voice is already feminine a huge difference from your original voice... I am so happy for you!
Quote from: Miss Lux on September 25, 2016, 09:18:16 AM
Geekgirl,
I read your VfS experience and listened to your voice updates..... your voice is already feminine a huge difference from your original voice... I am so happy for you!
Thanks Miss Lux!
What's really funny is I have people around me who talk to me on a daily basis and people whom I speak with maybe once every few weeks. The people I hang around with daily think my voice hasn't changed much at all. The people I don't speak to regularly hear a big change. A voice change is pretty much like a mini-transition. People around you will get used to it over time.
Sadly, the only thing I miss is my singing range... but if I were to weigh the pros and cons of voice surgery, I would say there are certainly more pros than cons for me.
Haben girls,
I emailed Dr. haben's office about the Marriot hotel reservations and pre-op instructions. Julie informed me that someone will call me to discuss hotel arrangements and pre- op instructions.
-Around when will I get a call from Dr. Haben's office regarding my Marriot hotel reservation arrangements?
- Around When will someone call me about pre-op instructions, stop taking certain meds etc?
- if I don't bring my own mouth guard/ teeth protector will they provide one?
Thanks much!
My surgery with Haben is coming up on 19 Oct. I have so many questions but a big one I have for you, Dena, is what kind of cough med does he give? Does it have hydrocodone or codeine in it?
Quote from: Miss Lux on September 26, 2016, 09:28:01 AM
Haben girls,
I emailed Dr. haben's office about the Marriot hotel reservations and pre-op instructions. Julie informed me that someone will call me to discuss hotel arrangements and pre- op instructions.
-Around when will I get a call from Dr. Haben's office regarding my Marriot hotel reservation arrangements?
- Around When will someone call me about pre-op instructions, stop taking certain meds etc?
- if I don't bring my own mouth guard/ teeth protector will they provide one?
Thanks much!
I found them to be very responsive because I committed to a date one month off and everything was cleaned up in a week or two. For the most part the hotel isn't a big deal, you just tell them the nights you need and it will be all arranged for you unless you want the shuttle to pick you up. If so, you will need to let the hotel know when your flight is. Mine was very delayed so it was a good thing I decided to use the cab a I was over an hour late.
You should receive a request for current medications in the information packet. Mostly they are concerned about drugs that would interact with what they will give you in surgery and diabetes. You will be up and walking hours after surgery so clots are not a big issue. I wasn't on HRT at the time so I am not exactly sure how they handle it.
They don't/didn't have teeth protectors and my mouth took a real beating because I have a long but stiff neck. I don't know if Dr Haben will allow you to use one but if they will allow it, it would be a good idea to bring them.
Quote from: Wynternight on September 26, 2016, 11:05:09 AM
My surgery with Haben is coming up on 19 Oct. I have so many questions but a big one I have for you, Dena, is what kind of cough med does he give? Does it have hydrocodone or codeine in it?
I am not at home right now so I can't check the label but I suspect it does. I looked it up and it's really bad stuff and if I recall correctly, it's only 2 or 3 doses a day because it's so strong. I will try to remember to check it out when I get home but if I forget, feel free to remind me. This is a medication that is only used in severe cases and not used to treat the common cold or flu.
Quote from: Dena on September 26, 2016, 01:08:44 PM
I am not at home right now so I can't check the label but I suspect it does. I looked it up and it's really bad stuff and if I recall correctly, it's only 2 or 3 doses a day because it's so strong. I will try to remember to check it out when I get home but if I forget, feel free to remind me. This is a medication that is only used in severe cases and not used to treat the common cold or flu.
Hmm...well if it's hydrocodone based I can't take it due to an allergy. Codeine might as well be water for me. I'll ask Haben's office. I just now got off the phone for the pre-op health questionnaire so time is creeping up on me!
Looked it up. The stuff is Tussionex suspension extended release (http://www.rxlist.com/tussionex-drug.htm) and it contained hydrocodone.
Quote from: Wynternight on September 26, 2016, 01:30:11 PM
Hmm...well if it's hydrocodone based I can't take it due to an allergy. Codeine might as well be water for me. I'll ask Haben's office. I just now got off the phone for the pre-op health questionnaire so time is creeping up on me!
Wynternight,
Did Nikki contact you about hotel already? Did you call or they called you for the pre- op questionairre? Are you doing the CTA? We might see each other.... I am scheduled on the same day as you!!!!!
Quote from: Miss Lux on September 26, 2016, 08:29:05 PM
Wynternight,
Did Nikki contact you about hotel already? Did you call or they called you for the pre- op questionairre? Are you doing the CTA? We might see each other.... I am scheduled on the same day as you!!!!!
Yay!! I did the pre-op by phone today but no contact in regards to the hotel. I am doing the CTA.
Quote from: Dena on September 26, 2016, 04:49:05 PM
Looked it up. The stuff is Tussionex suspension extended release (http://www.rxlist.com/tussionex-drug.htm) and it contained hydrocodone.
Ah bollocks. I can't do Tussinex due to the hydrocodone in it.
I used only one dose and that was because Dr Haben said I should take it before getting on the plane as I would have to check my luggage. The only near cough I had was after surgery because I had a ton of stuff I needed to get up as it was restricting my breathing. After that, I used the tricks above and kept cold water with me at all times. I also went to the bathroom a good deal more but it was worth it not be knocked out by that cough medicine.
Quote from: Miss Lux on September 26, 2016, 09:28:01 AM
Haben girls,
I emailed Dr. haben's office about the Marriot hotel reservations and pre-op instructions. Julie informed me that someone will call me to discuss hotel arrangements and pre- op instructions.
-Around when will I get a call from Dr. Haben's office regarding my Marriot hotel reservation arrangements?
- Around When will someone call me about pre-op instructions, stop taking certain meds etc?
- if I don't bring my own mouth guard/ teeth protector will they provide one?
Thanks much!
My surgery was on 7/20. I had first contacted Dr. Haben's office about a redo on 3/7. I paid shortly afterward and hadn't heard from them until 6/23. On that day, Julie sent me info on my Marriott reservation. I called Marriott on 7/18 to confirm with Marriott that my hotel reservation was in the system and I also called to ask about the limo. Mariott doesn't handle the limo. It's another company. I had to contact Julie about this and she responded on 7/19 that the limo arrangements have been made.
I figure things happen a little more slowly in a small city like Rochester than in Philly, NYC, or Boston like I'm used to. Just call Dr. Haben's office and everything will be sorted out. There are only two people running Dr. Haben's office, so it's a small, very personalized experience. You're in good hands. When I visit Dr. Haben, I almost feel like I'm meeting a cousin and his wife. (I don't think his nurse is his wife, but I may be wrong.)
You will receive pre-op instructions from Rochester Health about a month prior, so around the same time as you get the Marriott info emailed to you. I believe I was able to take all my meds (estrogen, allergy meds) up to the morning of the surgery.
Regarding the mouth protector issue, I have big teeth, my jaw doesn't open very wide, and didn't need a mouth guard, but your mileage may vary.
The new gold-colored suspension liquid tastes SO MUCH BETTER than the old cherry stuff. I got nauseous with the cherry stuff. The new stuff made me a little loopy the first couple of days, but I was fine afterwards. It's really thick so you have to have patience as it drips slowly out of the scoop/spoon (you'll see what I mean when you take the medicine).
Thank you Geekgirl!!!
1 day post op... feeling a little better... worst feeling last night nauseos , dizzy etc... vomited x1 i couldn't stop it and coughed up thick phlegm x 1 ... no urge to cough after... just a little nauseaous still..
Almost as soon as I woke up from surgery, I had a single cough that brought up a mouth full that accumulated during surgery. That wasn't everything that was down there so latter on I had a second caught that brought up the rest.
I am not sure if it's the medication or the dizziness that is making you nauseous but I suggest you move you head slowly until the dizziness passes. I have had a history of inter ear infections so dizziness doesn't bother me much but it did when I first start getting them. You might be more sensitive to the dizziness.
Quote from: Miss Lux on October 20, 2016, 08:26:46 AM
1 day post op... feeling a little better... worst feeling last night nauseos , dizzy etc... vomited x1 i couldn't stop it and coughed up thick phlegm x 1 ... no urge to cough after... just a little nauseaous still..
I felt all of what you felt the first time I had the surgery. I vomited shortly after I woke up. I was nauseous and didn't leave the hospital until 5pm. The second time wasn't as bad which I attributed to the new cough syrup. I was still nauseous and didn't leave the hospital until 5pm. The second time I didn't want to take any chances with eating anything greasy so I ate soup. I think it was chicken noodle and I remember not eating much of the stuff in the soup, just the soup itself. I was much better the next day and could eat normally.
Thanks for d tips. i feel so much better. I got worried that d cough and vomiting could have damaged d sutures but it was fine, Dr. Haben showed me. I have not taken the cough syrup i don't really have the urge to cough. But I can feel secretions in my throat but I am scared to clear it... do you just leave it alone or u try to clear it/ expel it? ...On my way back to LA currently in ROC airport, the people in Rochester are very nice generally :) Driving is also not as stressful as in LA... got the chance to go to the Maid of the Mist and Toronto before the surgery. The cepacol lonsenges helps with the sore throat too I realized :)
I found that leaning forward and exhaling did a reasonable job of clearing the accumulation. I had practiced not coughing before surgery and the primary thing I needed to eliminate from my diet was chocolate as that contributed to the problem. I dislike hot spicy food so that was already out of my diet and I discovered on the trip back that carbonated beverages were a bad idea. After I was back I stayed with soup and soft food until my mouth healed from the beating it took.
Just curious, Would you know if your stitches break or if your surgery failed ? Would you feel it? Is it normal not to feel pain/ soreness on the third day?
I would sip ice water through a straw, warm it in my mouth and swallow it. That controlled the pain and the coughing. I felt very little pain in the vocal cords but a fair amount in my mouth from having my teeth banged around. If you aren't coughing, the sutures should be holding and if your swelling is under control, you should feel little or no discomfort. In my case, I had extreme swelling so I felt discomfort a bit longer. We worry a good deal about the the sutures failing but they will take a fair amount of abuse without problems.
Take your antacid pills, try not to make noise and at about 6-8 weeks the sutures will come out on their own. When you can speak, carefully limit your voice in order to help speed the healing. Be careful but don't worry.
Thanks Dena... I just needed to hear that....
Quote from: Miss Lux on October 22, 2016, 03:31:14 AM
Just curious, Would you know if your stitches break or if your surgery failed ? Would you feel it? Is it normal not to feel pain/ soreness on the third day?
I'm of the belief that if any stitches break anywhere on the body, you're going to feel it. For me, it wasn't so much any pain and soreness after the surgery, but a general feeling of blah is the best way to describe it. You put your body through a lot with the surgery, so let it rest and heal. Get your mind off of it. It's done and you won't know what the outcome will exactly be until some weeks later. This is why I say this is the most difficult of all the surgeries, even more difficult than GRS, because you can't readily see or hear the results. You have to wait... and for the impatient among us, of which I am one, we just have to find out now... or yesterday ;)
The temptation to speak and test whether or not your voice sounds higher will overwhelm you during your vocal rest period. Please try to refrain from doing so. You won't be able to hear it in your whispers, only when air vibrates the vocal cords which are very delicate things that need to heal (read this paragraph again and again). Think about it... there is a stitch binding the bottom 40-45% of your vocal cords. It is a bloody mess right now. The only way for it to heal is to not speak. If you do, it's like pulling a Band-Aid off of a wound again and again. If you keep doing that, the wound will open up and not heal right.
After your vocal rest, you can speak, but that's not the time to assess whether or not the surgery was a success, either. Your voice will slowly come along and improve over time. Very slowly. It is likely one of the biggest tests of patience you may endure. Imagine improvement like putting a speck of sand in a bucket and waiting for it to fill up. That's what I've learned so far... and if you're patient, you will see a glorious end result.
I'll keep that in mind thanks geekgirl!
I just received a bill for the surgery anesthesia in the mail today. Do I just ignore it?
Pay it. The anesthesia is separate from the everybody and is payed separately. It's the one thing I would have liked to be spelled out in advance but it isn't.
Oh really! Thanks Dena!
I emailed Dr. Haben's office... They told me that it was an error and that I don't need to pay it/ I don't owe them money. :)
Hi.... I am exactly on my 1 month post VFS and I tried out my voice... Today is the first time I tried out my voice and all that comes out is a voice at whisper level... I don't want to force it either in the fear that I might ruin it.... I know this can be expected but I am a little worried due to Kwala's experience.....
Is this normal/ expected at 1 month post op?
Should I continue attempting to use my voice daily or just rest it?
Thanks!
One month is the maximum rest period and you need to start using your voice. I didn't really regain normal volume for about 7 months and before that time the voice could become uncomfortable if I overused it. Most likely you still have swelling in the vocal cords that limit their movement so it won't harm them as long as you don't abuse them with excessive volume.
Kwala's problem was not damage from abuse but her vocal cords over fused with the tie being greater than the 50% maximum. If anything, using your voice will help prevent additional fusing so be careful with your voice but use it.
Thank you so much Dena! :)
Pre-op and 30 days post VFS voice sample.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sqzhm7k170nzfhm/AACgVBXcY8se6JEFeuDFe3kCa?dl=0
The pre op voice was good but the post op voice is still very rough so it's not possible to judge it yet. The fastest recoveries I have heard were at 6 weeks and they had been speaking for a month before that. As you are only a day or so, we will need to wait a bit for results.
Quote from: Miss Lux on November 17, 2016, 07:29:21 AM
Hi.... I am exactly on my 1 month post VFS and I tried out my voice... Today is the first time I tried out my voice and all that comes out is a voice at whisper level... I don't want to force it either in the fear that I might ruin it.... I know this can be expected but I am a little worried due to Kwala's experience.....
Is this normal/ expected at 1 month post op?
Should I continue attempting to use my voice daily or just rest it?
Thanks!
Don't worry too much! There were a LOT of girls who underwent surgery right around the time I did and although they sounded breathy/rough at first they all went on to have successful outcomes. I was an exception and I wouldn't start to worry until you're around 3-4 months! I would just keep lightly testing it day by day and certainly don't do any type of loud yelling or anything that causes pain. Best of luck ;)
I wish we had had the time to talk when we were there. :(
When is your F/U appt?
Thanks Kwala... Wynter, Dr . Haben said he'll email me in 3 months or contact him if I have concerns...I was discreetly looking for u Wynter hahaha but I was too shy to approach the patients...
I tried the rainbow passage today... Still raspy which is expected but So far I am happy...even without placing my voice the resonance and the "explosiveness" of my voice is gone my friends were amazed.... Attached is a recording of my natural unplaced voice - rainbow passage as instructed ny Dr. Haben and 30 days post op.... So far so good :)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sqzhm7k170nzfhm/AACgVBXcY8se6JEFeuDFe3kCa?dl=0
Quote from: Miss Lux on November 19, 2016, 02:16:32 AM
Thanks Kwala... Wynter, Dr . Haben said he'll email me in 3 months or contact him if I have concerns...I was discreetly looking for u Wynter hahaha but I was too shy to approach the patients...
I tried the rainbow passage today... Still raspy which is expected but So far I am happy...even without placing my voice the resonance and the "explosiveness" of my voice is gone my friends were amazed.... Attached is a recording of my natural unplaced voice - rainbow passage as instructed ny Dr. Haben and 30 days post op.... So far so good :)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sqzhm7k170nzfhm/AACgVBXcY8se6JEFeuDFe3kCa?dl=0
I'm pretty certain I saw you in the waiting room the day I went in for my pre-op and on our surgery day. Do you have long hair and glasses? I was in a navy blue skirt and have long, strawberry blonde hair with platinum streaks. I was with my mum - short with glasses.
Quote from: Miss Lux on November 19, 2016, 02:16:32 AM
Thanks Kwala... Wynter, Dr . Haben said he'll email me in 3 months or contact him if I have concerns...I was discreetly looking for u Wynter hahaha but I was too shy to approach the patients...
I tried the rainbow passage today... Still raspy which is expected but So far I am happy...even without placing my voice the resonance and the "explosiveness" of my voice is gone my friends were amazed.... Attached is a recording of my natural unplaced voice - rainbow passage as instructed ny Dr. Haben and 30 days post op.... So far so good :)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sqzhm7k170nzfhm/AACgVBXcY8se6JEFeuDFe3kCa?dl=0
I still have the surgical laryngitis with my voice but I had some complications that made the CTA necessary (paralysed vocal cord) so Haben told me to expect a longer recovery time. My pitch is definitely higher and there's no resonance so I can't wait to hear how I sound sans the hoarseness/laryngitis.
Wynter I have long brown hair but no glasses...oh with your description I guess I din't see u.... I am half Asian petite 5'2 skinny.... Goodluck with your recovery I'll include u in my prayers :)....so far I am happy with my results getting better day by day and I don't think I'll have too much volume issues because the volume is starting to come back :).... I followed the advice here to take motrin daily and the raspiness is starting to fade.....
Quote from: Miss Lux on November 21, 2016, 08:19:58 AM
Wynter I have long brown hair but no glasses...oh with your description I guess I din't see u.... I am half Asian petite 5'2 skinny.... Goodluck with your recovery I'll include u in my prayers :)....so far I am happy with my results getting better day by day and I don't think I'll have too much volume issues because the volume is starting to come back :).... I followed the advice here to take motrin daily and the raspiness is starting to fade.....
Oh! Then we missed each other completely. :(
My F/U is on 23-01-17. I'm getting some volume back but still raspy. I'm out of the Motrin and Tylenol so mayhaps I'll get some more whilst I'm out today. I may still have some swelling plus mine was complicated by the paralysed vocal cord which necessitated the CTA.
Wow thanks for all the updates on this thread. Glad to hear things are going well. I to am interested in VFS but a bit wary too. I feel like my voice is probably ok most of the time but it tends to slack when I talk technical and such. Still wary of surgery at this point.
Here is my 6th week voice post VFS... Still with surgical laryngitis but I can already hear some positive changes :)
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sqzhm7k170nzfhm/AACgVBXcY8se6JEFeuDFe3kCa?dl=0
Sounding great! I still have some of the surgical laryngitis but a few days ago my voice "cracked" and was very clear for a few seconds and gave me an idea of how I'm going to sound and I am very happy.
Do you find you get short of breath more quickly when you talk now vs. before surgery?
I have been breathing from the diaphragm for years so it's totally natural. Using that method of breathing as apposed to chest breathing greatly increases the volume of air you have to work with so running out of air isn't a problem.
Quote from: Wynternight on December 01, 2016, 05:39:12 PM
Sounding great! I still have some of the surgical laryngitis but a few days ago my voice "cracked" and was very clear for a few seconds and gave me an idea of how I'm going to sound and I am very happy.
Do you find you get short of breath more quickly when you talk now vs. before surgery?
Wynter,
During the first few weeks I noticed that too - being short of breathe at times but it is gone now or maybe I don't talk that much... I live alone. I still have the surgical laryngitis and the good voice comes and goes and the raspiness is on and off.... I record my voice every day and some days it's good some days bad but definitely better than pre- op.
Girls,
Should I be worried... I am 6 weeks post op... I coughed once and the sputum had a tiny streak of blood? I still have surgical laryngitis ok somedays bad some days. Thanks.
At 6 weeks it's time for the sutures to come out and it's possible that one just let go. As long as that's the only thing you notice, there is no problem.
Thank you so so much Dena!!!! Mwaaaaah mwaaaah
Here is my 2 month post-op update. I am still a little raspy but the volume has come back. The improvement I've noticed is more on the resonance and the vibrato type thing on my voice. I do feel however that my pitch was better or more feminine on the 33rd day and 6th week post-op than today, I am guessing maybe because I gained back more volume I dunno.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qgvc6ygnn50w3x2/2%20MONTHS%20PO.m4a?dl=0
I have problems with my dropbox recordings but I'll try to fix it..... I just want to post an update.... I am almost 3 months post VFS and I am very happy with my results.... My volume is back and most of the raspiness is gone.... My voice passes in person and on the phone without any effort or voice placement.... Well I always pass even pre VFS but I have to be always be on alert with my placement but now I noticed that I sound more feminine when I don't try or place my voice......
Wonderful news. Thanks for sharing :)
I am almost 3 months post VFS and here is my Pre-Op & 3 months Post-Op early morning just out of bed/ no placement voice. 😊
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2nkokgb8k06namm/AAA3wgIk_ff1Tqx3FRiAZ5qKa?dl=0