Not sure how to phrase this concept or if the title covers it well, but with girls it seems chests have to be hidden. Personally, I find the idea that the female chest as inherently sexual and must be censored lest guys get aroused is silly, as if women couldnt get aroused by the male chest as well? Or is it yet another example of the male is stronger and therefore more able to rape? Well regardless...I wish there would deviate away from the standard that breasts must be hidden, but sadly society's culture wont do that anytime soon.
So that said, as mtf or ftm I wanted to know how it must feel gravitating to a new role in whats considered nudity. My hypothesis is a lot of you gals probaly had dysphoria to begin with when you knew you were trans so you probably didnt show your male chest anyways. Though, I imagine some of you were used to going swimming and the like shirtless, must be a different experience having your chest become a nude area when your breasts come in or you acquire them.
With guys, I imagine your chests are always covered, but in that case its dysphoria keeping it covered for own sake and not necessarily because they feel the social need to as a woman (plot twist: cuz theyre not). Still...even after surgeries did you ever find it an odd experience to be able to go shirtless in public after living so long needing to be covered?
Regardless of the matter that dysphoria played in covering things up, or not, Im sure what we did mightve been affected by our social role we were used to living at the time. I know with me I uncomfortably live by the jurisdiction that I have to have a shirt on, which in itself is dysphoric because I know as a male I should be able to publically be shirtless, but cannot. If I ever got flat chested enough to go out shirtless itd be a relief, although at the same time might be very strange at first to get used to.
...Im really hoping my wordings arent coming off weird its late and I had a last minute question before I forget
As an MtF (just starting out with no breast growth, yet) my situation is the opposite of yours. However I have anxiety about going shirtless even now. It's the image that I feel I should portray (having breasts) makes going shirtless very uncomfortable for me. Pool parties and at the beach I will always have a shirt on.
I guess in a sense, being topless in public for me is not appropriate. However the next question is at what point MUST I wear a top? My birth certificate, driver's license etc all say "male" (New Jersey requires more than I'll be doing to change the B.C.) So would I be arrested if I go full time with a B or larger breast size and walked down the street wearing heals and a skirt without a top? (No way in H**L would I do that though)
I haven't had top surgery yet but I know I'll probably be self conscious for months after the surgery to go topless bcos before it was 'taboo' (which is ridiculous bcos like you I think why should men and women's chests be treated any differently). Actually I think men should cover up too but that's for a different post.
I wonder that now I pass what would strangers think if I decided to go topless; would they then see me as female. What if I had been years on T and had a full beard; would I still be asked to cover up. You wouldn't tell overweight cis men to do the same so I find it very confusing.
Reminds me of a story I heard at an ftm group were a guy was talking about his ftm friend who had been on T for years and decided to go topless at the beach; pre top surgery. A guy stared at him to which he said 'what you've never seen a man with t*ts before' :D. Which I could have that sort of confidence ::)
Even if it had been socially acceptable, I would not have gone topless pre-op. I wasn't comfortable with seeing it, and wouldn't have wanted others to either.
Post-op, I don't have any anxiety about it. I hang out around my house, regularly go swimming or to the beach, and do work outside all without a shirt on. IMO, that's the freedom I paid $9k for. Never felt uncomfortable or weirded out about it.
It might be as much to do with women feeling threatened with people looking at their chests and assuming it's a sexual look than just because men might be more able to rape. After all, there are places where it's legal for a woman to be topless now (including NYC?) and I haven't seen or heard of them flocking to be topless in those places just because they've been "emancipated" there.
I've not had surgery yet but I already know for a fact I won't be uber comfortable going topless just because the T's will be gone. I suspect it will be liberating to go swimming without having to "cover up" and liberating the sense my upper body can no longer get me arrested, but even so just like many of the cis guys I know I doubt I'll be running through the streets waving my shirt around my head like a football player or vying to go topless at any chance. The opposite probably. I've always been reserved about how much skin I feel like showing and I don't see that changing a great deal. But I do think I'll feel less inhibited when it comes to swimming and things like that.
Go to Europe, guys. You'll quickly find it's a construct of our American prurient idealism. They're just "tits", and that's the way they're treated on the Continent.
I live in Europe, although certain European countries do have topless beaches & tits on the TV before the watershed - last time I was in Italy I saw a TV commercial for double glazing on in the morning with some full frontal nudity in it, in between the two halves of Il Commissario Rex I was watching - it's not really like people are super blase about toplessness. Even in France or Germany. I mean you can't exactly walk down a street with no top on without some sort of reasoning, although people probably won't have a thrombo over it. I'm a Brit though, admittedly we don't like topless people in our TV commercials and are still somewhat likely to spill our tea as we clutch our pearls if we saw one. (And giggle uncontrollably like 12 year olds on seeing Italian TV for the first time).
I was the only male in an all female nudist family so I was always comfortable being topless. Gyno came in along with puberty so I just assumed that I was growing like sister and quite expected. I got teased a bit in school until the boys learned about my other talents.
As far as walking down the street topless in a skirt and heels, that would be a clash of styles. Maybe with a sheer top would be OK. Topless on the street in shorts and sandals is quite normal for me, as is on the beach with only bikini bottoms.
I always hated going shirtless. Maybe some of it is because I have very pale skin but mostly it has never felt right. After getting out of the water from swimming, I would always quickly grab a towel to cover me up. When I was in phys ed in high school they would split teams into shirts and skins. I would dread getting put on the skins team.
I'm on low dose E for the last 4 months. About a month ago we were swimming and I was still very shy about showing my chest even though it wasn't that noticeable.
Interesting topic.
Paige :)
I grew up with my brothers and dad always being outside without a shirt on as soon as it was warm weather, so I didn't wear a shirt either. I was devastated when my mom started making me wear a shirt at 10. When puberty hit, I wouldn't have gone without a shirt even if it was allowed because of dysphoria.
After I'm able to have top surgery, and if I continue to lose weight, I'd probably go without a shirt again.
Whether or not I would go topless is irrelevant. I find the double standard annoying. It seems like it is a hold over from a by gone era to have to cover a woman's body. That said, most men are 99% visual and I can see where having to behave would be too much to ask, so the laws persist. Heck, even fully clothed...go to a mall or park and watch all the guys act the ass when dealing with women. Even the laws do not really work...compare the stats of men forcing themselves on women compared to the opposite. Men, it would seem, have a pass where they do not actually have to grow up!
Women have a "drive", but it is very different then the male drive. I do not walk around aroused at all. My female friends do not walk around aroused and "hunting", or at least they do not show any sign of it. Men cannot help it. They think about sex all the time, even the ones that are 'well behaved'.
In the case of chests, it would appear there are cultural factors, as much as bio ones.
There are societies in Africa in which topless women get no more attention for their toplessness than a covered woman as in those societies breasts aren't all that arousing to them. The inner thigh, however - you better cover that up if you're a woman there, because that's considered as arousing as our culture finds boobs. In another culture, having a lot of adipose tissue can make a woman far more sexually attractive to men than less.
I do find it interesting how cultures differ in what they find sexually attractive. It means we can't just say "men go crazy for _____" as an entire group because apparently they don't. Or - perhaps their culture trains them out of it.
I´m sorry but it has nothing to do with being an American construct :P If you´re going to walk topless for no reason around Europe, people are going to judge you too. They´ll probably judge you more if you´re a woman, depends on the situation.
It´s just funny how some people think that in Europe everyone is extremely liberal ^^ It´s undoubtedly a culture thing, as in some cultures it is/was accepted, but in that case it might be a western thing, and Europe belongs to that too.
QuoteIf you´re going to walk topless for no reason around Europe, people are going to judge you too.
Actually, my point was that American's are much more easily offended by their bodies than Europe. Witness Television ads and you'll see what I mean. I never meant to insinuate that everyone was running around topless.
I've always been a bit self-conscious about my chest, and always wore a shirt with my bathing suit, even as a child. Not sure if that's a trans thing, a PTSD thing, or just a quirk. I actually feel like I might be a little less conscious if I had breasts...
Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on October 02, 2016, 11:46:02 PMI wish there would deviate away from the standard that breasts must be hidden, but sadly society's culture wont do that anytime soon.
Actually, quite a few areas in the US, Canada, and Europe have legalized women going topless in public, except in places where men are required to wear shirts. (eg, fine restaurants, courts) Even more have legalized it under certain circumstances. (eg, breast feeding, tanning, art) This is a current trend.
This bothers me.
The reason why female breasts are required to be covered in most public places is pretty simple and obvious. For most females the breasts, not just the nipples, are an erogenous zone. It's not as common for the chest and nipples to be errogenous zones in males although there are obviously exceptions to both.
I seriously doubt breasts are required to be covered because men won't be able to control themselves if they see the female chest. Have a little more faith in your fellow males.
Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on October 02, 2016, 11:46:02 PMI know as a male I should be able to publically be shirtless, but cannot. If I ever got flat chested enough to go out shirtless itd be a relief, although at the same time might be very strange at first to get used to.
At men's pickup basketball games, teams are sometimes split into "shirts" and "skins." Best to avoid those.
And a lot of guys like to go shirtless in the summer when doing outdoor chores, working on their cars, at the beach... because it's way more comfortable. And others keep their shirts on, because it's polite, conservative, or they're not too comfortable with their bodies. Like, some guys are uncomfortable about their bellies, their chest hair, their lack of musculature, their man-boobs... you know, basic insecurities.
It's extremely rare that guys keep their shirts on because of feminist analysis.
So keep your shirt on, and just know why you're like all the other guys who keep their shirts on.
pre-boobs I used to hate going shirtless or even wearing a tank top/singlet's because my arms had some muscle definition, just like everyone else if there was a game that was shirts vs skins..i would not want anything to do with it but when i have my boobs, i don't know i do not feel any personal problem with my boobs out around other girls and alone but with men or in public i would feel the need to cover up just because it just feels natural to me to cover up coming from Singapore where i've been raised that "good girls cover up"...though i'm not always a good girl LOL.
QuoteAs an MtF (just starting out with no breast growth, yet) my situation is the opposite of yours. However I have anxiety about going shirtless even now. It's the image that I feel I should portray (having breasts) makes going shirtless very uncomfortable for me. Pool parties and at the beach I will always have a shirt on.
I guess in a sense, being topless in public for me is not appropriate. However the next question is at what point MUST I wear a top? My birth certificate, driver's license etc all say "male" (New Jersey requires more than I'll be doing to change the B.C.) So would I be arrested if I go full time with a B or larger breast size and walked down the street wearing heals and a skirt without a top? (No way in H**L would I do that though)
I totally feel similar, i don't know i'm in the same position except i have C Cup boobs...i do wondder too.
Even growing up, I always wore a t-shirt for modesty.
Well, I can't wait till I get these things taken off.
I probably won't go running half naked in the surf... but then again I just might
I don't think I've ever felt much joy in my body before. I might even feel euphoric... what a thought.
Luckily I live right next to two beaches, so I won't be arrested for running around shirtless. . .
That said I think I'll want a bit more muscle definition before I do that... there's always something isn't there ::)
Yeah I live in the UK. Not any opportunity to be shirtless. I don't swim, we don't have a beach culture and guys who take their shirt off in the summer get looked down upon as chavs. Even if there was opportunity there's simply no reason to.
I'm all for top freedom such as the law in NYC and "free the nipple" in general.
I do not like the double standard one bit. We have two nude beaches here in Oregon where people can be more or less equal, but when not at those places i follow the social norms and cover up.
I should not have to. 100% equality on all things - accept nothing less.