It's a question that popped in my head. So are there any real signs or do you just have to believe that they were being honest when they told you they didn't know you was transgender.
I don't know , how do you tell if some guy says he loves you and only you
I do not think you will know if someone is telling the truth other than some body language cues. You can look them up as to common body language cues when people lie. One common thing is people lose eye contact and look to your left or right.
The only way to really know, as far as I'm concerned, is to also have relationships with men without disclosing your narrative. After building up that experience, you can compare to relationships where your narrative was on the table.
If there's no difference, then yeah, they've read you.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 12, 2016, 05:04:56 PM
The only way to really know, as far as I'm concerned, is to also have relationships with men without disclosing your narrative. After building up that experience, you can compare to relationships where your narrative was on the table.
If there's no difference, then yeah, they've read you.
what if those guys you dated did know but acted like they didn't? I'm starting to see this was a stupid question lol. You can't actually tell if someone really didn't know.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 12, 2016, 05:59:58 PM
what if those guys you dated did know but acted like they didn't? I'm starting to see this was a stupid question lol. You can't actually tell if someone really didn't know.
Not a stupid question - you got your answer.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 12, 2016, 05:59:58 PMwhat if those guys you dated did know but acted like they didn't? I'm starting to see this was a stupid question lol. You can't actually tell if someone really didn't know.
I have found qualitative differences in situations between having an open narrative versus having a private narrative. Now, of course, it's possible this doesn't change what people
think they know. However, it does change the rules of how the social interactions will play out.
Likewise, they don't really
know unless you tell them, or you're getting feedback from other quarters that you're visibly transgendered. It goes both ways.
Which rather begs the question, how do you gauge how you're being read? There are many ways. First, you get misgendered, which isn't automatically recanted when you speak. Second, people ask you about your transition or your status (which is something to expect from ->-bleeped-<-s). Finally, there are all kinds of subtle social cues -- the way men and women interact with you, in general, because frankly trans people are not very common and the average person is going to be somewhat uncomfortable, not easy and relaxed and quite sure of what the rules for social interaction are supposed to be.
This is something I noticed in particular after facial surgery. Before, there was a slight lag when meeting people, as their subconscious minds had to "double take" to figure out how to categorize me. After, there was no lag.
Of course, some social cues are rather more blatant -- like when another woman asks if you've got a spare tampon in your purse.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 12, 2016, 10:56:04 PM
I have found qualitative differences in situations between having an open narrative versus having a private narrative. Now, of course, it's possible this doesn't change what people think they know. However, it does change the rules of how the social interactions will play out.
Likewise, they don't really know unless you tell them, or you're getting feedback from other quarters that you're visibly transgendered. It goes both ways.
Which rather begs the question, how do you gauge how you're being read? There are many ways. First, you get misgendered, which isn't automatically recanted when you speak. Second, people ask you about your transition or your status (which is something to expect from ->-bleeped-<-s). Finally, there are all kinds of subtle social cues -- the way men and women interact with you, in general, because frankly trans people are not very common and the average person is going to be somewhat uncomfortable, not easy and relaxed and quite sure of what the rules for social interaction are supposed to be.
This is something I noticed in particular after facial surgery. Before, there was a slight lag when meeting people, as their subconscious minds had to "double take" to figure out how to categorize me. After, there was no lag.
Of course, some social cues are rather more blatant -- like when another woman asks if you've got a spare tampon in your purse.
so if some people know your trans and some don't then what does that mean exactly? Usually guys can't tell, but women can.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 12, 2016, 11:50:51 PM
so if some people know your trans and some don't then what does that mean exactly? Usually guys can't tell, but women can.
Women are better than men at clocking us because they know what women are "supposed" to look like, act like, speak like, etc. Women spend more time around other women than men do, and they are women themselves, so they are able to pick up on all the subtle cues that someone might be trans.
It's not surprising, really. For example, if I look at an Asian person, I can often tell if they are Korean, Japanese, or Chinese simply based on how they look. I doubt that many non-Asians could do that. They'd probably just say that "all Asians look the same to me". :) This is because Asians are familiar with what Asians look like; we tend to spend more time around others like us, so we're familiar with the Asian face. The same holds true for women being able to tell which women are cis and which are trans.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 12, 2016, 11:50:51 PM
so if some people know your trans and some don't then what does that mean exactly? Usually guys can't tell, but women can.
Quote from: EmilyMK03 on October 13, 2016, 01:55:06 AM
Women are better than men at clocking us because they know what women are "supposed" to look like, act like, speak like, etc. Women spend more time around other women than men do, and they are women themselves, so they are able to pick up on all the subtle cues that someone might be trans.
It's not surprising, really. For example, if I look at an Asian person, I can often tell if they are Korean, Japanese, or Chinese simply based on how they look. I doubt that many non-Asians could do that. They'd probably just say that "all Asians look the same to me". :) This is because Asians are familiar with what Asians look like; we tend to spend more time around others like us, so we're familiar with the Asian face. The same holds true for women being able to tell which women are cis and which are trans.
First, Emily is right, for those of us looking to become women, it's from other women, not men, that we will learn the most about ourselves and how we're moving through the world. It's from our relationships with other women that we will pick up on what it means to be "socialized."
But to address Angélique's question, what does it mean to have experiences of disclosure and non-disclosure? Or, more bluntly, what is the difference between social situations where you're passing and where you're not? This is a difficult question to answer. As pointed out before, it's not easy to know one from the other in the first place, for so much depends on how other people are perceiving us and modifying their behavior accordingly, all with a myriad of intentions.
Here's the thing, though -- if you disclose, you are no longer passing. Maybe you weren't in the first place, maybe you were, but once that story is out, it's out, and there's no going back, at least in this particular social setting. So I think it's important to find places where you simply don't tell. Spend some time there, and see how the social interactions you have in these spaces
differ from those where you have necessarily outed yourself.
Because there
are differences (assuming you actually pass at first and second glance), and those differences are not superficial, especially once you get into the deep end of the pool.
Omg I've been through this many times. All I can say from experience is guys who didn't know will treat me way differently up until I spill the beans. After that they start calling me a man and making rude, hurtful comments. For most guys, your gender is ONLY about what's between your legs. It wouldn't matter if you looked like Jessica Alba. If you have a penis, your a dude.
Guys who have suspicions about it early on will steer the conversation towards the topic, or just ask flat out are you trans?
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I don't think you can ever know for sure. The best you can do is ask him at a point in your relationship where you can trust him to always be level with you, and ask him if he knew when you first met. I think though, when you're at the early stages of a relationship with a guy, it's best not to worry too much about whether or not he knows (though I know that's easier said than done, it was practically all I thought about on my first date with my current bf ;; )
I totally HATE this feeling . There is no way to figure out as we are insecure and paranoid
Quote from: Ataraxia on October 15, 2016, 11:53:24 PM
The best you can do is ask him at a point in your relationship where you can trust him to always be level with you, and ask him if he knew when you first met.
Well that's precisely what I did, when I did eventually disclose my history and after when things settled down, I was very curious and just out of my own curiosity, I did ask him if he knew or had any suspicions, he had none whatsoever only when we we're intimate he found my vagina a lot tighter than other women, he had a lot of experience with women before me, that was the only thing, we did eventually get married.
I basically just compare my experiences before I started passing prehrt vs now and like I have not ever experienced what I went through those years in recent time and I'm also really good at reading people. You can tell easily if you understand how to read body language super well. People can easily control what they say and stuff but they can't control reactions and movement perfectly in the moment when they're feeling a certain way.
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on October 16, 2016, 06:25:36 AM
I basically just compare my experiences before I started passing prehrt vs now and like I have not ever experienced what I went through those years in recent time and I'm also really good at reading people. You can tell easily if you understand how to read body language super well. People can easily control what they say and stuff but they can't control reactions and movement perfectly in the moment when they're feeling a certain way.
Excellent point! We know what it's like when the story is out on the table from the beginning. It takes time developing relationships where the story isn't out on the table, and through that accumulated experience it becomes pretty clear, I think, in discerning the difference.
In my experience you discover it over time. How does he vibe with you? Does he man'splain? Does he think you are a second-class citizen? Does he tell you there are things you can't understand because you are female? etc.?
Is it after you say to yourself, "Being with guys ain't what it was cracked up to be? What did I ever do this?"
Is it after you realize you are doing all the cooking and cleaning up--even though he takes out the garbage and fixes the car and lifts heavy stuff?
Ya. . . that's about the time you realized he hasn't clocked you.
Quote from: Virginia Hall on October 16, 2016, 11:55:04 AM
In my experience you discover it over time. How does he vibe with you? Does he man'splain? Does he think you are a second-class citizen? Does he tell you there are things you can't understand because you are female? etc.?
Is it after you say to yourself, "Being with guys ain't what it was cracked up to be? What did I ever do this?"
Is it after you realize you are doing all the cooking and cleaning up--even though he takes out the garbage and fixes the car and lifts heavy stuff?
Ya. . . that's about the time you realized he hasn't clocked you.
When he asks what you take for birth control...
When he says that he produces sperm and you produce eggs...
When he goes on at length about what a feminist he is...
I can't just go out with guys unless I tell them because if your not honest with them then it's a relationship built on lies. I'm just going to accept the fact I'll never know if a guy already knew or not.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 16, 2016, 10:39:34 PM
I can't just go out with guys unless I tell them because if your not honest with them then it's a relationship built on lies. I'm just going to accept the fact I'll never know if a guy already knew or not.
I lived a life of lies prior to transition. After transition I lived the truth. No lying involved.
Quote from: Virginia Hall on October 16, 2016, 11:29:44 PM
I lived a life of lies prior to transition. After transition I lived the truth. No lying involved.
im not saying living as female is a lie.... im saying you should be honest with your potential partner about your past so they know what they are getting into.
What he's getting into is a relationship with a woman. I'm not going to disavow that, because it's the truth. And I don't want him to treat me differently than any other woman. "Coming out" is asking him -- begging him -- to treat me differently, to look at me differently, to think of me differently.
I do not hold onto the past. It is gone. It no longer exists. All that exists is Here and Now.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 17, 2016, 12:04:30 AM
im not saying living as female is a lie.... im saying you should be honest with your potential partner about your past so they know what they are getting into.
In my view one answer does not fit all. The circumstances dictate. For example, someone with a large extended family and who has kids and chooses not to go through SRS--sure! Better sit down and explain what your situation is. No argument.
But can you see my point? No kids. No extended family. All surgeries completed long ago. In such a case a close narrative might be an option--not required. An option.
Again, speaking for myself, I manifested young and I wanted to gravitate to the other girls and join in as one of them. No more. No less. Just a regular girl without an asterisk. I did not wish to be
special. My goal was a woman's life. That's just me. Please do not call me, or my life, into question. It is one of the valid choices.
Quote from: Virginia Hall on October 16, 2016, 11:55:04 AM
Does he tell you there are things you can't understand because you are female? etc.?
Is it after you realize you are doing all the cooking and cleaning up--even though he takes out the garbage and fixes the car and lifts heavy stuff?
LOL Virginia, that just made me laugh, I can so relate to all that, hubby knows and is completely aware of my history, but never treats me as ''trans'' and never mentions that word, he treats me as a woman and now a wife since we got married, neither of us could cook yet it was me that took the cookery courses, now I do all the cooking, cleaning and dusting etc, he can't cook and doesn't clean anything, but to be fair he does all the heavy ''man stuff'' I would know lots of stuff about fixing cars, if a battery was dead, I'd know what to do, but he'd never let me near anything like that, because I might find it complicated and not understand such things which is total rubbish, but I don't argue, I'm not going to damage his male ego, typical man, I love and enjoy being a woman and being married to a man that accepts as a woman, he does the guy stuff and I do the wife stuff, housekeeping etc.
Telling people is just my opinion. I have been living as female for 6 years and in those 6 years I lived with my parents and they pretty much programmed it in my head to tell guys before going on a date and if I didn't tell them they wouldn't allow me to go on a date with them. I don't find guys treating me any different than a woman after I tell them.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 17, 2016, 10:41:11 AM
Telling people is just my opinion. I have been living as female for 6 years and in those 6 years I lived with my parents and they pretty much programmed it in my head to tell guys before going on a date and if I didn't tell them they wouldn't allow me to go on a date with them. I don't find guys treating me any different than a woman after I tell them.
Fair enough. I have lived female 40 years and in a number of different scenarios. I have right at the start, revealed. I have withheld. I have withheld for several years and then revealed. I have tried this six ways to Sunday. I have never been the victim of violence resulting directly from sharing my medical history, although I have been the victim of violence as an adult from domestic battery, so I know what the stakes are.
I think it is important to choose partners carefully. If I suspected the person is capable of violence, I would have to ask myself "why am I dating them in the first place," and, yes, bad boys are fun, but what makes them bad is that they are unreliable and in the end dangerous, whether you are trans or cis. Nicole Brown of OJ fame was a cis, was she not? Revealing some great secret is not armor against abuse.
I am new here and have not read all the threads, but I have seen no posts about being a battered MTF wife while trans. Are there others on this forum, or am I the only one? And if the person decides to batter, they have all your stuff, and if you have told your S.O., all your medical history can be used to discredit you to the cops when someone calls the police. The attacker will turn it around and say that you provoked it --a
guy who had it coming--and you'd be surprised how many cops, at least years ago, would blow the incident off. You're all upset and sputtering and the attacker goes into cool mode. All smooth and relaxed. "Look what I have to deal with."
I wished
I'd been told what
I was getting into.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 17, 2016, 10:41:11 AM
I have been living as female for 6 years and in those 6 years I lived with my parents and they pretty much programmed it in my head to tell guys before going on a date and if I didn't tell them they wouldn't allow me to go on a date with them. I don't find guys treating me any different than a woman after I tell them.
Angelique do what ever works for you, I don't think yoyr parents had the experience in their generation, you can't ''programmed'' your brain like a computer, you have to live the experience and do what's right for you.
I've been living as a woman now for nearly 40 years, I've had different experience with different men, my first boyfriend was dating me before and after my surgery, the some guys I disclosed and some I didn't, I would never disclose on a first date, I just went with my instincts, I had a bad experience on disclosing on a first date many years ago.
When I started dating the guy who is now my husband, I didn't tell him for months, if I told him on our first date the relationship probably would never have developed to the stage it did, but when I eventually told him, was shocked and surprised, but he liked me so much he recovered from the issue and decided I was still the woman for him, we've now moved on with married life, some men do find it hard to deal with, telling on a first date without getting to know the person first has a low chance of working, but when dating over a period and really getting to know you as a person and the woman we are, some men can accept it, my husband did.
Quote from: pretty pauline on October 17, 2016, 02:28:29 PM
Angelique do what ever works for you, I don't think yoyr parents had the experience in their generation, you can't ''programmed'' your brain like a computer, you have to live the experience and do what's right for you.
I've been living as a woman now for nearly 40 years, I've had different experience with different men, my first boyfriend was dating me before and after my surgery, the some guys I disclosed and some I didn't, I would never disclose on a first date, I just went with my instincts, I had a bad experience on disclosing on a first date many years ago.
When I started dating the guy who is now my husband, I didn't tell him for months, if I told him on our first date the relationship probably would never have developed to the stage it did, but when I eventually told him, was shocked and surprised, but he liked me so much he recovered from the issue and decided I was still the woman for him, we've now moved on with married life, some men do find it hard to deal with, telling on a first date without getting to know the person first has a low chance of working, but when dating over a period and really getting to know you as a person and the woman we are, some men can accept it, my husband did.
your husband probably would have been ok with it in the first place because you are post op. I've had many men who would have been interested if I was post op but since I am pre op they couldn't go through with it.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 17, 2016, 02:57:16 PM
your husband probably would have been ok with it in the first place because you are post op.
No not necessarily, some men never accept women with a trans history, pre op or post op.
Quote from: Angélique LaCava on October 17, 2016, 02:57:16 PM
I've had many men who would have been interested if I was post op but since I am pre op they couldn't go through with it.
Well you've answered your own question Angelique, if you want to date straight men is probably is better to be post op, more of a chance being accepted.
Well my man never knew... until I told him.. Ok I was post-op when we met.
I told me, he never even suspected it... That first night we even had sex, and how I know he never even suspected a thing.. he went to great lengths to get condoms.. so he would not get me pregnant.
I told him when we officially became a couple, he was actually fine with it, a little shocked, but we had a long talk about it.. that was an amazing evening. We almost talked all night. He said he sees me as woman, who he was falling for.
He treats me like lady, he opens doors for me etc.. Since we got engaged, we now live together.. and we have fallen into typical gender roles... me into the typical female role and him the male role.. you know.. male does the gutters etc and me look after the household and cook etc. I cant wait to marry him and be his wife.
The only sad thing, is I cant have his child, I would love to have his baby. But adoption is an option.. so I will become a mommy some day.