I've heard lots of varying things about people's experience with progesterone. Some saying it helped breast growth, other sources saying its useless. Some people say it had a positive mental effect, others saying it had a negative effect.
Has anyone here taken progesterone, and what difference do you think it made for you?
I started prometrium 1 year into HRT. I think it helped even out my emotions or I l was learning to better control my emotions. I have a full A cup but I think that has a lot to do with age and genetics. My PA-c said it will fill out my breasts and they have filled out but they are an A cup.
9 months into HRT I added micronized progesterone. It has restored enough libido for me to be happier and I may be a bit more moody but for now I'm going to say that's an ok trade off.
It took 15 years for me to get micronized Progesterone in addition to E. By then I was suffering from various deficiency symptoms like depression, weight gain, bad skin, high blood pressure, ...
It helped me with all these symptoms, in addition it made me emotionally more grounded and happier, I felt more attractive. It helped change my body to be more feminine - more body shape changes like butt, hips, waistline. I started to grow more pubic hair again and had some regrowth on the temples. I gained breast volume, but interestingly not much in terms of circumference. The numbers said I did not gain breast size , but I had to buy new bras. So it changed the volume and shape of the breasts, but not the number ou get by putting a measuring tape around you. It also changed the muscles and fat in my face to be more feminine again.
For me, there is a visible difference in my breasts when I use progesterone. There is also a felt difference, they feel...more firm.
I use a progesterone cream applied twice daily as per instructions. My blood work has always been normal, on or off. Given this, I prefer to use it in addition to oral E.
Quote from: anjaq on October 16, 2016, 04:29:08 PM
It took 15 years for me to get micronized Progesterone in addition to E. By then I was suffering from various deficiency symptoms like depression, weight gain, bad skin, high blood pressure, ...
It helped me with all these symptoms, in addition it made me emotionally more grounded and happier, I felt more attractive. It helped change my body to be more feminine - more body shape changes like butt, hips, waistline.
Hi Anjaq:
Are you saying that the deficiency symptoms apparently came from a deficiency in progesterone? And the progesterone helped you to get a more feminine figure?
I am asking these questions to make sure I understand EXACTLY what you are saying, and also tonight, I take my first dose of micronized progesterone for the first time (in comparison, I've been on estradiol for 18 years, just starting cycling estradiol 2.5 cycles ago, and tonight starting to cycle the progesterone per the menstrual chart or Wiley Protocol (to an extent)).
I have had an amazing response just from cycling the estradiol alone, and I now I wait to see for the rest of the year what cycling progesterone does for me. I'm my doctor's first patient to do this regimen.
May I ask what to expect in the coming days of being on progesterone? Thank you...
Six months since i added prometrium and loving it. My breasts are definitely fuller and rounder. It helps sleep and overall i would say my emotional effects have been slight, but a bit more calm. Estrogen's effects were so good for me, i hesitate to chalk up the emotional changes due to the prometrium. Definitely glad i have added it.
Quote from: Mohini on October 16, 2016, 07:19:16 PM
Are you saying that the deficiency symptoms apparently came from a deficiency in progesterone? And the progesterone helped you to get a more feminine figure?
I am asking these questions to make sure I understand EXACTLY what you are saying, and also tonight, I take my first dose of micronized progesterone for the first time (in comparison, I've been on estradiol for 18 years, just starting cycling estradiol 2.5 cycles ago, and tonight starting to cycle the progesterone per the menstrual chart or Wiley Protocol (to an extent)).
I have had an amazing response just from cycling the estradiol alone
I believe a lot of the symptoms I had previously were from progesterone deficiency. Some also may have originated in the long term use of oral estradiol - I switched to transdermal estrogen some months before I added Progesterone. I definitely had psychological improvement and also the belly cramps were much less frequently. I know for sure it helped my breast development even at this late stage. My body shapes are different, although I combined it with loosing weight, something I never managed before either. I lost weight at the good spots, improving my waist to hip ratio. I also used progesterone Gel at the temples and have gotten regrowth there. I do not want to leave out the downside - the hair at the pubic area and the legs are growing faster and a bit thicker now again - still not without female bounds, but not as thin as during times of deficiency.
I too my prescribed dosage of micronized progesterone sublingually, by the way.
I am interested in something as well - in what way did cyclical estradiol help you and in what general sense do you create a cycle (not mentioning dosages, but just way of application, please)? I am considering cycling my hormones, I tried it a bit but saw not much of a difference, except when I stop progesterone completely, I am getting PMS. Thank you
Hi Anjaq.
You vary both the estrogen and the progesterone amounts per a menstrual cycle chart and notice how the two go together or not go together throughout the 28-day cycle. You may have to experiment per blood work to see what the ratio between your base line level and your primary peak level should be, then your base line and your secondary peak should be. The wider the variance between the base line and the peak levels, the stronger the results might be, to a point.
I have been on HRT for almost 3 years (34 months) now and up until this past May at 29 months of HRT did I add Progesterone cream and I barely had a B cup. I did get a slight increase in fullness, but no real changes. About a month ago my doctor added micronized Progesterone to my HRT routine and they are growing again at a faster rate that I've ever experienced since starting HRT. I'm starting to get into the C cup area and they feel a lot fuller. I'm experiencing the addition sensitivity, itching and aching that I haven't felt with nearly this intensity in almost 2 years ago when estrogen alone was creating some growth. So there certainly is (at least to me) something happening due to the progesterone.
Quote from: Mohini on October 17, 2016, 02:31:58 PM
Hi Anjaq.
You vary both the estrogen and the progesterone amounts per a menstrual cycle chart and notice how the two go together or not go together throughout the 28-day cycle. You may have to experiment per blood work to see what the ratio between your base line level and your primary peak level should be, then your base line and your secondary peak should be. The wider the variance between the base line and the peak levels, the stronger the results might be, to a point.
Well, I have devised some ways to cycle my transdermal hormones and the progesterone - I could do this, but my question was what is the reason behind doing it. It seems "natural" somehow, because its what other women also have - but I would still want to know, what effect does it have? Certainly mood swings, but are there some clearly positive effects, any physical effects on the body or health? Its complex to ccle hormones, so it makes sense only if there is something to gain from it
Quote from: anjaq on October 17, 2016, 03:20:00 PM
Well, I have devised some ways to cycle my transdermal hormones and the progesterone - I could do this, but my question was what is the reason behind doing it. It seems "natural" somehow, because its what other women also have - but I would still want to know, what effect does it have?
This is a GREAT question, and it may open up a deeper understanding of the body. I have mentioned elsewhere, somewhere in this forum the reason for cycling, so it's worth repeating here.
The body becomes desensitized over time to inputs, so the body needs help in the form of breaks from exposure to input, so that it retains as much of the initial sensitivity to fresh input over its life. In essence, the body builds feminization in layers or stages over the growing stage of life. Otherwise, to not preserve the initial sensitivity through constant dosing can lead to one maxing out earlier in the process than should be the case under a cycling regimen. This is why the estrogen level in the cycles are not very high most of the time, at a high peak over 2-3 days and at a secondary high over another 6 days, maybe, out of the 28 days of a cycle, for example. I found myself in this position, so I would taper off the dosage down to the base line level for the first week, and then start the upward curve to the primary peak in the second week, and then I'm tied into the cycle pattern.
It's like coffee and sodas. Have it once in a while, and you feel the zing, but have it all the time, and you probably can drink coffee to HELP you sleep. That usually happens with any other drug, where it no longer has the same effect as it did in the beginning. The resting or base line period allows the hormone receptors to rest and clear out, I guess, and return to its previous resting state. Everything in this Universe works in cycles, from the sun going supernova to the weather cycles over millions of years, each year, month, and day. Even inanimate matter has cycles within electron and sub-atomic movement. Nothing in this material world is static, stationary, unmoving. That goes for human bodies and living bodies, too.
Well - this doe snot really answer my question, which was WHAT is the efect - what do you actually see as a difference after 18 years of HRT since you changed to cycling - what happened - you probably get mood swings and amotional ups and downs from cycling - maybe you feel more or less attracted to men during differnt days? But what happened - did you experience breast growth, changes in body shape, wider hips, better hair ,.. ?
I read a lot about cycling hormones and usually the main argument to do it is "because it is natural" and "because cis women have it too" or maybe even "nature works in cycles". Well, for men its not like that for example. They have Testosterone - it is going up in puberty and then declining until they get a midlife crisis, lol - there are some daily variations or peaks when they have sex - but its not a monthly cycle. So obviously the male body still reacty very much on testosterone despite this - there seems to be a stage where the effect is balanced, where there is enough hormone present to do something in the body, but not as much as to diminish the bodys ability to react to it. Like - if I drink just one coffe daily, it probably still will have an effect even after months - unlike if I drink 5 coffes a day or more - then of course I need 5 coffees. If I dring 5 coffees for 2 weeks, I would initially have a big effect of them, but it would fade out and if I drink only 1 coffee a day in the two weeks after that, I would almost fall asleep during the first of those weeks. So in that case I have maybe one week of increased caffeeine effect but another week where it has the negative effect. Maybe this would cancel itself out in a way if we are speaking of hormone effects?
Its a very simple logic now, so its probably not like that in reality.
In any case, since there are no studies about how this actually works, all I can rely on is personal experiences, which is why I ask "what did you feel, what changes did you see in the body that were not there during extended single-dosage HRT?"
Quote from: anjaq on October 18, 2016, 02:03:04 PM
Well - this doe snot really answer my question, which was WHAT is the efect - what do you actually see as a difference after 18 years of HRT since you changed to cycling - what happened - you probably get mood swings and amotional ups and downs from cycling - maybe you feel more or less attracted to men during differnt days? But what happened - did you experience breast growth, changes in body shape, wider hips, better hair ,.. ?
Well, let's see...
I started to see my hands softening up for a few days randomly, and then get rough during the cycle troughs, and now, in the third cycle since I started, I'm seeing my hands maintain most of the softness in between the primary and secondary peaks.
Lips appear to be smoothening, starting in the third cycle. I don't know if this is from the estradiol, or if it's because I inserted progesterone into the cycle schedule two nights ago.
Hair started to regrow and stop thinning so much during the second cycle. This started to happen before I got progesterone going.
Breasts itch coming out of the interim dip days 17-20. I had this happen in the last cycle. I have to see if it does it again this week. Breasts itch and momentarily harden during the secondary peak days (19-23). Itching appears to lessen around day 25, though still sensitive.
Sex drive heightens during secondary peak. During progesterone part of the cycle, orgasms become more intense.
Cycling the estradiol only (no progesterone taken to this point) does not seem to alter my sexual orientation. I still want women. I'm confident about this because I'm honest with myself about what I prefer or don't prefer in a partner.
I need more time on progesterone and more cycles to determine what all will happen, but it is positive for me.
Ok, thanks , this is interesting to hear. I guess since you added progesterone now, probably for the first time in years, some of the changes you will see can come from this. I know that I changed a lot just from adding P without cycling it. The dosages are a bit of a puzzle though - With cycling, you probably hit the best doages at some point inevitably - I am not sure if it is not possible to also just stick to that dosage where it works best - where the lips are fullest and the hands are softest and just keep it there?
Quote from: anjaq on October 18, 2016, 03:49:59 PM
Ok, thanks , this is interesting to hear. I guess since you added progesterone now, probably for the first time in years, some of the changes you will see can come from this. I know that I changed a lot just from adding P without cycling it. The dosages are a bit of a puzzle though - With cycling, you probably hit the best doages at some point inevitably - I am not sure if it is not possible to also just stick to that dosage where it works best - where the lips are fullest and the hands are softest and just keep it there?
Actually, it is the first time I've added micronized progesterone, period. MPA is what I used about 15 years ago, and I didn't like how it was affecting me.
The reason it doesn't work to stick with the dosage that "apparently" brings out the "best" result of a given time-frame is because eventually, you may have hormone resistance. I even had regression even on a post-orchie dosage. I guess you could say that the hormone receptor system was tired after years of a constant dosage. You will get some effect, but you won't get the "spurring on" of development to its maximum potential that you get on the upswings of each cycle. The development of a young woman comes from the layered, periodic growth spurts. It's like building a sand pile. You add to it a little at a time. It doesn't come in one big 8-year surge. Also, the depth of strength of exposure has a big impact, I think. This refers to the difference between your base line reading and the highest reading in a cycle. The brief peaks in a cycle can sensitize your receptors to be more sensitive than they would be if they were exposed to it all the time at the same level.
Well - the regular dosage given after removal of the testes in GRS or Orchie is usually low. Did you ever try just maintaining the high dosage that you have now at the peaks in your cycle? Maybe its just a matter of havin not high enough dosages? What I also found was that I feminized more once I switched to transdermal and away from pills after 15 years...
I know some people use injections and the claim there is similar to both - one is that one can reach higher dosages more safely with them and the other is that every injection is a high peak and before the next injection there is a deep valley, so it is also cyclic, just not in 28 day phases. Would your theory also explain why people in injections claim to feminize more?
Quote from: anjaq on October 18, 2016, 04:47:02 PMDid you ever try just maintaining the high dosage that you have now at the peaks in your cycle? Maybe its just a matter of havin not high enough dosages?
I know some people use injections and the claim there is similar to both - one is that one can reach higher dosages more safely with them and the other is that every injection is a high peak and before the next injection there is a deep valley, so it is also cyclic, just not in 28 day phases. Would your theory also explain why people in injections claim to feminize more?
The higher static dosages still did not work for me. Yes, you can have a higher dosage and still be safe because it only occurs for a short period. Now, I'm learning what "out front" means in the shower when I'm trying to soap my upper body with my hands on opposite sides. That is a new experience for me.
I think you are right about the injections being on a substantially faster cycle (two weeks or less versus 28 days). The low end of the injection cycle (near the end) is giving the body's receptors a break for a few days. The added advantage of following the menstrual cycle is that after getting a break of about a week, the receptors have a decent period of rest, so when the higher primary peak hits, the receptors become VERY sensitized, and the estrogen level drops quickly after that peak, and then resumes to a more sustained level not as high as before in the secondary peak. However, the receptors, being freshly woken back up, seem to take on the estrogen more strongly now that they are fully ready to work AND able to provide a base or substrate for progesterone to do its work during the progesterone peak (which happens to coincide with the secondary estrogen peak). The reason for the dip down between the primary and secondary estrogen peaks may be to back the estrogen off to prep the receptors to being sensitive to the lowest input and really boost its action on its way up. This helps the body to conserve its energy by not having to sustain as high of an estrogen input over a longer period in order for the body to feminize sufficiently during each cycle. This is an ingenuous way to get the body to maximize results in natal females. Somebody or SOMETHING really figured this out.
As I said above, I'm learning what "out front" means in the shower. THAT is totally new to me! One thing I would like to ask is if progesterone has an impact on your endurance in physical activities. I had to struggle a bit to do my walk-run this morning. Another thing is that the smaller nipple suddenly hurts in throbs from time to time. It's like oww! Another thing is that when I take the progesterone pill at 9 PM, I'm already getting sleepy around 9 30 - 10 PM, and I'm able to go to sleep.
I take prometrium pills rather than progesterone. It "calms you down and picks your up." Seriously, it is VERY centering in my case.
Yes, there is darkening of the nipples and some breast increase, even at my age. In combination with IM estradiol cypionate the results for me are very good.
Quote from: Mohini on October 19, 2016, 10:59:14 AM
after getting a break of about a week, the receptors have a decent period of rest, so when the higher primary peak hits, the receptors become VERY sensitized, and the estrogen level drops quickly after that peak, and then resumes to a more sustained level not as high as before in the secondary peak. However, the receptors, being freshly woken back up, seem to take on the estrogen more strongly now that they are fully ready to work AND able to provide a base or substrate for progesterone to do its work during the progesterone peak (which happens to coincide with the secondary estrogen peak). The reason for the dip down between the primary and secondary estrogen peaks may be to back the estrogen off to prep the receptors to being sensitive to the lowest input and really boost its action on its way up. This helps the body to conserve its energy by not having to sustain as high of an estrogen input over a longer period in order for the body to feminize sufficiently during each cycle. This is an ingenuous way to get the body to maximize results in natal females. Somebody or SOMETHING really figured this out.
Its an interesting hypothesis. Not sure it can be backed up by science though...
QuoteAs I said above, I'm learning what "out front" means in the shower. THAT is totally new to me! One thing I would like to ask is if progesterone has an impact on your endurance in physical activities. I had to struggle a bit to do my walk-run this morning. Another thing is that the smaller nipple suddenly hurts in throbs from time to time. It's like oww! Another thing is that when I take the progesterone pill at 9 PM, I'm already getting sleepy around 9 30 - 10 PM, and I'm able to go to sleep.
What does "out front" mean?
I have gained a bit more energy with P, but also I lost weight with a diet recently, which makes it easier for me to do physical activities, so this overlaps in its effects. The sleepness is typical. What happens is that most of the Progesterone in the capsule you swallow is converted to allopregnanolone in the liver - called first pass effect - and this is anti-anxiety and sedative. I use it that way if I have a rough time and need sleep. Usually I use the capsules more fficiently by taking them sublingual (or putting them into lower body cavities) - this increases the amount of P going into the blood by a factor of 3-6.
Quote from: anjaq on October 19, 2016, 04:41:25 PM
Its an interesting hypothesis. Not sure it can be backed up by science though...
What does "out front" mean?
What happens is that most of the Progesterone in the capsule you swallow is converted to allopregnanolone in the liver - called first pass effect - and this is anti-anxiety and sedative. I use it that way if I have a rough time and need sleep. Usually I use the capsules more fficiently by taking them sublingual (or putting them into lower body cavities) - this increases the amount of P going into the blood by a factor of 3-6.
Call it intuition, which science is not really known for.
Out front as in, "Hey, my breasts are out front! Watch where you put them!"
Are you saying that the P capsules can be taken sublingually, or that I need to see if they have them available in tablet form?
So your breasts changed to have more projection? Or is it a matter of sensitivity? Mine lost all sensitivity in surgery, sadly.
Yes I take those soft capsules with the micronized P and take them sublingual. They need to sit there for 15 minutes though, and they can taste bad. So I decided after a while to use them in other body parts. There are studies using them as vaginal pills - they work really well that way, but if you do not have the amount of secretion other women do, the hulls of the capsules get accumulated inside, so I used a different opening of the body and I get about 6 times the blood serum value than taking them orally, which is consistent with the studies about vaginal application. The dosage needs to be checked then of course - if you usuall take them orally and switch, your blood values will go up, so its needed to have a blood test done and see if the dosage is still right.
Quote from: anjaq on October 19, 2016, 05:36:10 PM
So your breasts changed to have more projection? Or is it a matter of sensitivity? Mine lost all sensitivity in surgery, sadly.
I have larger breasts than before, and that is before I went on the progesterone. Now, I wait a couple of months to see what the results are.
Be careful about going sublingual on the progesterone capsules - progesterone is known to raise blood sugar.
Progesterone is great and I will never go off it completely. It has too many pros vs cons. E & P go together like pb&j. My breasts are like awesome, I'm still on the small side but they fit my chest nicely after 4.5 years of P but I don't have a large ribcage so thats a big factor. It took forever (I say forever but realistically my breast development followed the standard tanner stages timeline) and at one point was seriously considering implants but I'm glad I waited.
Quote from: Mohini on October 19, 2016, 06:42:45 PM
Be careful about going sublingual on the progesterone capsules - progesterone is known to raise blood sugar.
I am not sure about this... it seems not a problem with other women having normal progesterone levels. Never heard of it causing blood sugar issues, but one doctor claimed it would cause blood clots and increased risk of cancer, I believe she confused progestins with bioidentical progesterone
I sometimes take my micronized P sublingually, it allows me to half my usual dose for the day cause of the sharp spike. It raises my P level up to pregger levels, third trimester levels I think. The noticeable difference is that I don't get the drowsy effect and there's an instant noticeable feeling of mood elevation so I usually do it when I'm at the end of my injection cycle to curb my mood swings. It tastes disgusting though lol. I think rectal administration would work just the same, though I haven't tried that way in a long time.
Quote from: Lady_Oracle on October 20, 2016, 12:06:19 PM
I sometimes take my micronized P sublingually, it allows me to half my usual dose for the day cause of the sharp spike. It raises my P level up to pregger levels, third trimester levels I think. The noticeable difference is that I don't get the drowsy effect and there's an instant noticeable feeling of mood elevation so I usually do it when I'm at the end of my injection cycle to curb my mood swings. It tastes disgusting though lol. I think rectal administration would work just the same, though I haven't tried that way in a long time.
Wow, I may have to try this, I've not noticed tiredness but then I take P in the morning so maybe I'll start taking it at night and see if it helps sleep.
I do notice some drop in my energy levels on day 6-7 of my weekly IM estrogen, fortunately those are down days for me right now.
How did you ladies get your Dr to prescribe progesterone? My Dr said she never prescribed it when I asked her about it at my last appointment. I seem to see more pros than cons when I read about it.
Quote from: Pisces228 on October 20, 2016, 08:03:20 PM
How did you ladies get your Dr to prescribe progesterone? My Dr said she never prescribed it when I asked her about it at my last appointment. I seem to see more pros than cons when I read about it.
I used the term Wiley Protocol, looked it up, and made a PDF of the article. I studied it. I wrote down my reasons for wanting to try it, including the symptoms I've been experiencing in the last few years, and I presented both to my doctor. We went back and forth on it briefly. The main issue is that it's complicated, a lot of work, and the doctor may not have studied this closely. She was willing to let me be her first patient to try the Wiley Protocol (please note that T.S. Wiley is advocating other delivery methods other than pills, but I am getting results on pills). I kept my cycle based on a menstrual cycle rather than the Wiley Protocol strictly, as I suspect there is a reason for the way a woman's body regulates her hormones.
Quote from: Pisces228 on October 20, 2016, 08:03:20 PM
How did you ladies get your Dr to prescribe progesterone? My Dr said she never prescribed it when I asked her about it at my last appointment. I seem to see more pros than cons when I read about it.
I had done quite a bit of research on progesterone before asking my doctor for a script.
There quite a lot of misleading information about progesterone.
Done properly progesterone has a number of positive effects for trans women. Some you almost see mentioned.
I requested a script from my doctor and pointed out sone of the positive effects. She knew all about it of course , and was impressed I knew so much about it.
However she did point out only "bioindentical" progesterone is safe and effective. So in my country the bioindentical version it's not easy to get and is expensive.
Yes, MPA (Medroxyprogesterone) is NOT the bio-identical version. I so did not like the mental effect it had on me, which is why I stopped it after several months or a year about 16 years ago. You want prometrium or the generic version (people have said that there is a difference between brand-name and generic, though).
I get the following positive effects from bio-identical progesterone (Prometrium):
- softer skin and hair, skin more translucent
- improved mood, increased motivation
- sleep better
- breasts get fuller, firmer and ache
- easier to cope with stressful situations
Not so good,
- increased appetite
I take a high dose of progesterone WITH food which, in a study, showed that taken this way, maximum levels are 4-8 fold higher relative to fasting condition, with levels typical of pregnancy levels but they also drop quite quickly (within an hour).
I find sublingual to be inconvenient and the "high" I get doesn't last nearly as long as when I take it orally. That is not good, for me. Rectally, not sure it absorbs efficiently, never checked levels when pills were inserted that way but when suppository was taken, levels were VERY low. Also mood enhancing effects are much less when taken this way. A study showed, however, very good and steady levels when progesterone suppositories were taken rectally.
Cycles may be conducive to increased breast cancer risk.
Lancet. 2012 Jun 23;379(9834):2322-3.
"MacMahon and colleagues3 were
the first investigators to make a formal link with parity,
showing, in 1970, that parous women had a decreased
risk of breast cancer compared with nulliparous women.
Parous women receive further protection if they have
their first child at a young age, bear more children, and
if they breastfeed. These reproductive factors are now
known also to protect against the risk of ovarian and
endometrial cancer.4"
"Nulliparous women have a higher number of ovulatory
menstrual cycles than do parous women because of the
absence of pregnancy and lactation, and an increased
number of cycles affects cancer risk. Epidemiological
studies5,6 of breast cancer have directly linked number
of menstrual cycles to cancer risk."
"Time and further research will tell whether
continuous suppression of all menstrual cycles will
increase the protection against breast, ovarian, and
uterine cancers."
(see John Rock's error)
"someone hundreds of years ago had menarche at seventeen and had five babies and had three hundred fewer menstrual cycles than most women have today. The world is not the world it was. And some of the risks that go with the benefits of a woman getting educated and not getting pregnant all the time are breast cancer and ovarian cancer"
Traditionally, women experienced less menstrual cycles as they spent most their lives being pregnant and/or breastfeeding, times during which levels are more constant. Back then, breast cancer was less common but still more widespread among nuns who had many menstrual cycles.
Furthermore, taking estrogen in any which route (expect subcutaneously by implants) has shown to yield, in many instances, quickly fluctuating levels. For instance, with EV taken by intramuscular injection, levels peak and then drop relatively quickly (I know from personal experienced and studies have confirmed this, again and again, establishing half life at 4-5 days). This is even more marked with sublingual intake. Orally, it depends on the individual but some show a relatively quick drop in levels (within 6 hours of intake). Transdermal has also shown to result in fluctuating levels. Percutaneously, it depends and with EC taken intramuscularly, levels do indeed show more constancy.
Maturitas, 12 (1990) 171-197
"Large variations in oestradiol and oestrone levels can be observed in an individual
woman from day to day or from hour to hour, even during transdermal therapy
with oestradiol"
"After a single oral dose of (...) oestradiol valerate the plasma level of 17B-oestradiol rises measurably, although only minimally. The results of five separate studies all show that after a single administration of the ester maximum 17B-oestradiol concentrations in the range of 24- 140 pg/ml can be demonstrated at individually very different times (Table I). After the maximum concentration has been reached, the levels usually fall again quickly. There are again
great individual variations in the time at which the plasma concentrations of endogenous 17P-oestradiol as measured before administration of oestradiol valerate are reached again - from 6 h after administration in some cases to over 48 h in others."
Also, the claim that cyclicity is superior to constant levels should be reconsidered given:
CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63
"It has been shown that, in normal human epithelial
breast cells as well as in ER-positive breast
cancer cells, the proliferation rate did not differ
between incubation with 1 nmol/l estradiol for
24 h and with 24 nmol/l for 1 h"
Some show very good breast development with pellets which deliver constant levels of estradiol. I experienced better breast development on oral E2 (sublingual was the same) when levels were more constant versus IM injections where levels fluctuate very much.
"The comparable clinical efficacy of intranasal,
transdermal and oral administration of estradiol
indicates that the total exposure to the intracellular
estradiol (area under the concentration–time
curve, AUC) is an important determinant for the
biological response. The short-term presence of
high concentrations and the long-term presence
of low concentrations of estradiol may, therefore,
cause a similar expression of estrogen-dependent
products during a time interval of 12–48 h."
Overall concentration seems the key determinant rather than fluctuations.
Quote from: KayXo on October 22, 2016, 01:17:13 PMOverall concentration seems the key determinant rather than fluctuations.
This does not apply to me, obviously. I was getting much better development on 33% less estradiol in the last 2 cycles. These guys think they can outsmart nature: someone had the following to say:
Science is limited in perception. It is like exploring a dense and dark forest with a tiny lamp. The lamp illumines only a few feet ahead and science proposes a theory based on what it sees within that limited space. Next, science advances forward with the light and sees a few more feet ahead. What they see is quite different from what they saw earlier. So they propose a new theory and discard the former one. This is how science operates.
Anyway, now, my question is, is it better to take the estradiol and progesterone together, or does it not matter? I'm taking the estradiol in the morning and the progesterone in the evening, about 45 minutes before I go to bed.
*
Thank you one and all for your replies.
What seems the best idea presented here is to use ERT / HRT as close to imitating the natural cycle. Taking estrogen and progesterone according to a cycle plotted by your physician would accomplish this.
I had my blood drawn one week ago in preparation for my periodic endo appointment in the near future when she receives and studies those results. Prompted by your responces at this thread, I shall ask many questions and seek many answers that I shall post here to add more medical perspective to this discourse following my up-coming endo appointment.
My doctors had me on DES, then Premarin, then generic estradiol throughout my years. None had heard of using progesterone.
I campaigned for many months to my current endocrinologist to permit me to add progesterone since I became aware of its use about 18 months ago. She finally agreed to add progesterone to my bare minimum estradiol three months ago.
Currently, my estrogen is a pill and progesterone is a capsule. I allow them to completely dissolve under my tongue.
I as yet can not say what progesterone has done, has not done, or what effects it has had on my anatomy or psychology. Maybe three months is too quick to determine any actual results.
- My blood pressure has remained quite steady through the years
- I experienced severe hair loss in 2014, but that was likely due to stress and major depression; it is nowhere close to where it was before, but I can accept its present condition
- My skin severe dry and flakey skin around my temples, cheeks, and eyebrows has not changed with progesterone
- My fingernails remain dry and chipping as before progesterone
- I dropt from 115 kg to nearly 90 kg since the beginning of this year due to more attention to a better diet
- I attribute breast reduction from D to C to weight loss
- While I usually take my progesterone capsule at night before bed, I do not notice that it makes me drowsy; I do not seem to notice being drowsy if I take it in the morning
My estrogen levels have ranged from 20s to 40s which is where my endo likes them. My gynecologist argues that my levels should range from upper-100s to lower-200s. In the middle, I negotiate their disparity by asking each to agree to whatever is a truly healthy level.
*
Quote from: KayXo on October 22, 2016, 01:17:13 PM
Overall concentration seems the key determinant rather than fluctuations.
From what I have read, I would agree. Peak plasma levels are meaningless. It's bioavailability AUC that counts.
~Terri
Since I used to be an advocate of this I thought I would add my experience.
I was on progesterone for almost a year before my doctors noticed some odd liver function tests. Long story short, lymphnodes were enlarging and causing slight blockages but no doctors knew why since all the immediate causes of that were shot down from testing. Progesterone was the newest medication so they took me off of that and closely monitored me for several months.
6 months later I'm healthy and tests are normal again. I haven't noticed any loss in development or slowdown since getting off of it. So except for being slightly addicted to the high that came with taking it, I'm just fine with it being gone. Boobs still growing and I'm happier taking less medication anyway. Interestingly, estrogen itself is supposedly a cause for lymphnode growth, but I didn't seem to have an issue until it was combined with progesterone. If my doctor wasn't monitoring my blood tests I wouldn't have known until I had liver failure, as he said it had to have been a gradual decline over months. Yeesh.
So that's my story.
I just read the monograph for progesterone and one of the side-effects (rare) listed is swelling of the lymph nodes. I cannot find the study from which this is based on. Glad things are back to normal! :)
Highlights why it's so important to be monitored by an MD. MDs aren't gods but they do have specialized knowledge and good ones are good at the hardest part of medicine - diagnosis.
Kay, you are unlikely to. Those things come in from long term surveillance of people using pharmaceuticals, generally not from published research - just as the pharma companies don't publish their own research outside of what they file with FDA, EU, etc.
Yup, I love my doctor.
Hospital food isn't as good as they say either lol
Interesting study I came across on progesterone and its effects on sexual receptivity and attraction.
Nature 263, 606-608 (14 October 1976)
"Progesterone acting in the female seems to reduce sexual interaction in several primate species. It has been reported that sexual activity declines during the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle (when circulating progesterone levels are maximal), in monkeys, lowland gorillas and humans, and that administering progesterone to ovariectomised, oestrogen treated rhesus monkeys has a similar effect."
"One possibility is that progesterone acts on the female's central nervous system, causing her to accept or solicit fewer male mounts. Another is that progesterone somehow alters the vagina thereby changing non-behavioural cues (such as smell or tactile qualities) which contribute to her sexual attractiveness. Here, we present evidence favouring the second mechanism"
"Physiological increases in circulating progesterone made the females significantly less attractive to male partners" receptivity of females did not diminish however and actually even increased threefold!
When progesterone was administered vaginally, same results which suggest that it has something to do with progesterone's effect in and around the vagina. Females may be increasingly receptive to compensate for decreased sexual attractiveness.
"Oestradiol enhances sexual attractiveness of female monkeys by affecting the vagina."
"Progesterone could reduce the sexual attractiveness of the females by blocking these effects of oestradiol"
I personally don't think these findings necessarily negate the fact that progesterone may also alter other cues that may make females less attractive. This is especially fascinating to me as I studied those same monkeys in nature, years ago. Cute but can be quite aggressive at times and bite your ASS! Thankfully, not mine. ;D
I've personally come across reports of women stating libido increased after taking progesterone while, judging from my own experience with it, I find estradiol to be much more libido enhancing.
Also, this study, in contrast to the assertions of leading doctors who treat transsexual women who say that progesterone doesn't have an effect on breast growth:
Breast Cancer Res Treat. 1986;8(3):179-88.
"In normal breast, estrogen stimulates growth of the ductal system, while lobular development depends on progesterone. Thus, estrogen and progesterone, when secreted in an adequate balance, permit the complete and proper development of the mammary gland."
A final interesting tad bit of info for those who may not be aware:
"Progesterone may also have an antagonistic activity against estradiol, mediated through a decrease in the replenishment of the estrogen receptor, and also through increased 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase which leads to accelerated metabolism of estradiol to estrone in the target organ." Hence, making estrogen action less potent.
Is there anything in the literature regarding whether progesterone has any effect on the skin?
Yes.
Br J Dermatol. 2005 Sep;153(3):626-34.
"The results of this study demonstrate that topical (...) progesterone acts primarily in increasing elasticity and firmness in the skin of peri- and postmenopausal women. These effects in combination with good tolerability make progesterone a possible treatment agent for slowing down the ageing process of female skin after onset of the menopause."
Maturitas. 2001 Jul 25;39(1):43-55.
"Twenty-four patients (45-68 years; mean age, 54.9 years) without hormone treatment for at least 6 months were included. Patients were assigned to three therapy groups: 1, oestrogen only (...) (n=6); 2, transdermal oestrogen and progesterone (...) (n=7); and 3, oral oestrogen and progesterone"
Progesterone was administered intravaginally.
"Mean levels of epidermal skin moisture, elasticity and skin thickness were improved at the end of treatment based on both subjective and objective evaluation in patients with hormone replacement therapy (HRT). Skin surface lipids were increased during combined HRT, which may reflect stimulatory effects of the progestagen component on sebaceous gland activity, while oestrogen alone has a sebum-suppressive action."
"HRT with the mentioned regimes significantly improved parameters of skin ageing."
To be fair, some studies have also found no effect of P on sebum production while some studies even showed a temporary decrease. Results will depend on dose, the sex of the individual, hormonal environment, etc. I suspect that with E, P will have a slight sebum-stimulating action, preventing skin from getting too dry. This is my experience and that of some other transwomen. I also find my skin has improved in appearance and texture since taking P and several women, including myself can testify to its youth giving properties, based on the feedback of others.
Quote from: naa on October 16, 2016, 12:16:00 PM
I've heard lots of varying things about people's experience with progesterone. Some saying it helped breast growth, other sources saying its useless. Some people say it had a positive mental effect, others saying it had a negative effect.
Has anyone here taken progesterone, and what difference do you think it made for you?
My surgeon recommended progesterone for elasticity of the vagina l cavity skin
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In Australia, Promethium has recently been aded to what we call the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. This means that all Doctors can prescribe it and its is available with a Government subsidy to citizens. For a long time now I have been trying to get my Doctor to prescribe it for me, but the only way he would do this was to refer me to an endocrinologist as he wasn't able or willing to prescribe the medication (which up till October would have required compounding (that is making up special dosages).
Now Promethium has become "official;" on the PBS and is being hailed as the miracle drug for post menopausal women.
I have been on an Oestrogen only regime for nearly 4 years and whilst for over 3.5 years was just on 1 pill per day, my GP doubled it a year ago and I have definitely seen more results. But I have found now with the increased Oestrogen that I get sleepless nights, I get stressed out to easily and I have a problem with dry and itching patches on my skin, especially on my shoulders and upper back. Also hands are all too often terribly dry with my nails very brittle and breaking easily. Not so good when I like to keep my nails long.
I have been following all these discussions and know a couple of MTF friends in the UK that cycle Promethium from about the 15th day to about the 26th day of each month. i have also tried cycling my Oestrogen to see if that would improve my overall feelings and growth. I am now a B going on C Cup but have little or no growth for 1 year now). So I take just one pill a day for the first 10 days then do my full regime but one pill twice a day, then at the 4th week slip back to 1 pill once a day. What I am wondering is whether it would be sensible to consider this approach when taking Promethium (I plan on getting it on the PBS next week when I see my doctor) i.e. cycling it to the 13th-24th of the month, but taking it before I go to sleep but after dinner. What I wondering though is should I be taking E+P on days 13-24 or just P and then E on the Days 1-15 and days 24-30. Obviously I am only seeing guidance here as I will discuss with my GP. One point is I have a US Girlfriend that cycles mimicking the Cis female cycle and reports great progress, but by the end of it describes the Progesterone as very cloying ( basically making oneself very dependent on it). And I have another girlfriend in the UK that takes it constantly. All advice would be welcome.
Judith Lynn
Quote from: judithlynn on December 11, 2016, 03:55:37 AMI have been on an Oestrogen only regime for nearly 4 years and whilst for over 3.5 years was just on 1 pill per day, my GP doubled it a year ago and I have definitely seen more results. But I have found now with the increased Oestrogen that I get sleepless nights, I get stressed out to easily and I have a problem with dry and itching patches on my skin, especially on my shoulders and upper back. Also hands are all too often terribly dry with my nails very brittle and breaking easily. Not so good when I like to keep my nails long.
I experienced all of the above on estradiol PILLS (Estrace) and the higher the dose, the worse these things became BUT my breasts grew! Adding Prometrium somewhat helped but switching to injections of estradiol valerate pretty much resolved all these things. My skin is now soft, smooth, much more elastic and young looking. Hair is shiny and looks great. I sleep well at night, for the most part. My nails are strong. Apparently, progesterone increases sebum production (where estrogen has the opposite action) so makes skin less dry and nails stronger but I noticed these when I switched to injections, not when I added progesterone.
QuoteI have been following all these discussions and know a couple of MTF friends in the UK that cycle Promethium from about the 15th day to about the 26th day of each month.
I take it continuously. Cycling it would lead to mood swings, I personally don't like it. It's also speculated on the basis of findings today and in the past, in celibate nuns, that perhaps cycles increase breast cancer risk. Discuss this with a doctor.
Lancet. 2012 Jun 23;379(9834):2322-3.« Nulliparous women have a higher number of ovulatory
menstrual cycles than do parous women because of the
absence of pregnancy and lactation, and
an increased
number of cycles affects cancer risk."
QuoteI have a US Girlfriend that cycles mimicking the Cis female cycle
Today, women have an increased incidence of breast cancer and the number of cycles has greatly increased as well compared to traditional times when women spent most their lives being pregnant or breastfeeding and where cycles were much less. More cycles, greater rate of proliferation of cells as cells get renewed following apoptosis, increased risk of mutation as well. Cycles also increase the chance of having PMS. No thanks!
Since I last posted to this thread (November, now mid January) I've had to attribute some return of depression to the progesterone. No experiment can be done in absence of external factors and it's been a time of greatly increased stress, still I believe my responses have been trending depressive and so I'm taking a bit of a holiday from P.
My operating theory for right now is that a steady diet of progesterone over several months has had a strong negative effect on mood while going off of it has definitely cut into my libido.
So I will reintroduce it cycling, which is more like what happens for natal females anyhow.
I'll continue to update this thread as I continue to address a best approach.
I've been on HRT since 2004. Being on both progesterone and estrogen for quite a long time, I'm starting to suspect that if progesterone causes a depression in mood, it may be, in certain women, because of its somewhat anti-estrogenic actions so that increasing E a little might offset this while still benefiting from progesterone's other effects (growth of milk glands, hair/skin improvement, libido increase). Progesterone is also quickly metabolized and eliminated from the body so that in some women, taking it once daily versus twice or even thrice daily may cause withdrawal symptoms such that the mood drops after a certain number of hours. Interestingly, a study also found that by reducing the levels of one its metabolites, allopregnanolone, which has hypnotic/sedative effects, mood could be improved. They did this by administering dutasteride which blocks the conversion of progesterone to that metabolite.
These are merely my observations as a transsexual woman. You absolutely need to discuss this with a professional and find what works best for you and what is safe for you to do. As with anything, there are potential side-effects that one must not overlook.
After about 10 months of adding progesterone, i have not seen increased skin oiliness at least that i am aware of. In general HRT has softened my skin and i've had too many comments to the affect of " your skin looks great" or " you look younger" to ignore the thought that progesterone may have something to do with that. It feels like elasticity is better too.
It is just a bit confusing because i do not see increased sebum, i lotion daily pretty much my whole body.
Mood wise i do see both improvement after taking the prometrium (which i take in later evening for sleep benefits) and somewhat of a down turn in between. I'm going to ask my doctor about that. The effects on my breasts maturing have been awesome.
My skin also looks better with progesterone, less dry, more elastic. Hair, too. It's "glowy" sometimes and translucent. People think I'm up to 20 yrs younger (usually about 10-15 yrs) than I am and I'm not exaggerating, recent interactions with colleagues at work have confirmed this to my surprise and delight, of course. :) I also get compliments on my hair looking so nice and shiny. Can't complain.