I am an aspiring cross-dresser/->-bleeped-<- (I first need to fix my body and face) and I was wondering what exactly I should do in a future situation where I will be cross-dressing and will need to go to the restroom.
Indeed, if there is a gender-neutral restroom, then I feel like I should certainly use that restroom (indeed, I mostly identify as male but otherwise have strong feminine inclinations).
Meanwhile, if there are only two restrooms (male and female), then I certainly feel compelled to use the women's restrooms (regardless of the legality of this); after all, the risk of getting beaten and/or killed up by some violent transphobe in the men's restroom is simply not a risk that I am willing to take. (Indeed, if someone tries daring to sue me for this, then I will certainly try taking up this case all of the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court!)
Anyway, do you think that my own views and planned approach in regards to this is the best one? Also, if not, what exactly do you think would be a better approach for me in such a situation?
Indeed, any thoughts on this? :)
If you are presenting as female, then if there's no single-person restroom available, you will be safer using the women's restroom. Women generally will not respond as aggressively to a perceived 'territorial violation' as men. You may still get dirty looks, and there is always the chance you'll get rousted by a security guard or cop, but that's better than a gang beating.
I'm glad I live somewhere with sane laws on the topic.
Quote from: Michelle_P on October 16, 2016, 09:17:31 PM
If you are presenting as female, then if there's no single-person restroom available, you will be safer using the women's restroom. Women generally will not respond as aggressively to a perceived 'territorial violation' as men. You may still get dirty looks, and there is always the chance you'll get rousted by a security guard or cop, but that's better than a gang beating.
What about if I am presenting as a very feminine, cross-dressing male, though?
QuoteI'm glad I live somewhere with sane laws on the topic.
If you don't mind me asking, where do you live?
Quote from: Futurist on October 16, 2016, 09:34:55 PM
What about if I am presenting as a very feminine, cross-dressing male, though?
If you don't mind me asking, where do you live?
You present a rather interesting situation. If you are an obvious male dressing as a woman you would possibly be in danger if you used the men's restroom. However, if you are a cis-woman using the men's restroom you will either be accepted without question or at most be verbally provoked; there will not be much chance of physical danger.
Quote from: Futurist on October 16, 2016, 09:34:55 PM
What about if I am presenting as a very feminine, cross-dressing male, though?
Oh, dear. In any multi-person restroom, you'll be seen as being deliberately provocative by most people. The odds for violence will be higher in the men's room by quite a bit, though. Women are more likely to give you a dirty look and summon Security or the cops.
Quote
If you don't mind me asking, where do you live?
Northern California, in the San Francisco region. Here it is pretty easy to find a single-stall restroom that is safe to use. Pretty much any Starbucks, for example, has them, and they are found every block or two in urban areas. ::)
Quote from: Futurist on October 16, 2016, 08:37:28 PM
I am an aspiring cross-dresser/->-bleeped-<- (I first need to fix my body and face) and I was wondering what exactly I should do in a future situation where I will be cross-dressing and will need to go to the restroom.
Indeed, if there is a gender-neutral restroom, then I feel like I should certainly use that restroom (indeed, I mostly identify as male but otherwise have strong feminine inclinations).
Meanwhile, if there are only two restrooms (male and female), then I certainly feel compelled to use the women's restrooms (regardless of the legality of this); after all, the risk of getting beaten and/or killed up by some violent transphobe in the men's restroom is simply not a risk that I am willing to take. (Indeed, if someone tries daring to sue me for this, then I will certainly try taking up this case all of the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court!)
Anyway, do you think that my own views and planned approach in regards to this is the best one? Also, if not, what exactly do you think would be a better approach for me in such a situation?
Indeed, any thoughts on this? :)
You asked this same question elsewhere and you will probably get a softer answer here.
Since you identify as male, you are not legally protected by anti-discrimination laws that protect gender identity to use the women's restroom because you don't identify as a woman. At the same time you are worried about your safety if you use the men's bathroom when cross dressing which is certain understandable. If you look like a guy cross dressing and a transphobic guy sees you enter the women's bathroom you are still going to risk getting beat up. Most transgender women are not even going to attempt the women's bathroom unless they feel they blend enough to use the women's bathroom. In that weird awkward stage of in between most us trans women used the men's or preferably only used single stall bathrooms. It sucks and isn't fair, but we have all been there, and in your case you should try your best to only use single stall or family bathrooms.
I personally don't have an issued with you using the women's bathroom if you blend well enough. However, I do have an issues if you don't and look like a dude in a dress. I'm not trying to be cruel but 90-95% of transgender women do not blend enough to the use the women's bathroom until a few months on HRT and are in a similar situation, so I'm having a hard time believing that you are able to blend that well. There is a huge difference between cross dressing men and transgender women, but the general public gets the two confused and often think both are the same thing. We are fighting for out right to use the bathroom the matches who we identify and present as. If someone like you is wanting to use the women's bathroom who identifies as male and cross dresses, it goes against what we are trying to do and only gives ammunition to the right wing conservatives that want to force us into the men's room by you enforcing a stereotype that doesn't really exist.
The bottom line is if you blend well enough fine, but it you look like you don't belong in the women's bathroom where it's obviously you are a cross dresser, then don't, your only hurting those of us that are transgender. If there are only multi-stall bathrooms see is a friend can go with you to protect you or hold it until you can get to a single stall bathroom. That's the best advice I can give. It sucks I know, but that the way it is. If there were no transphobes or homophobes, when this wouldn't even be an issue.
Sydney that is exactly why I think that all public restrooms should be multi-user unisex with adequately private stalls and a common sink area. That will guarantee safety for all and provide for opposite sex parents and care providers to provide the necessary assistance.
P.S. Look around - there are many masculine looking women and also feminine looking men in this world.
Quote from: mac1 on October 17, 2016, 10:53:21 AM
Sydney that is exactly why I think that all public restrooms should be multi-user unisex with adequately private stalls and a common sink area. That will guarantee safety for all and provide for opposite sex parents and care providers to provide the necessary assistance.
P.S. Look around - there are many masculine looking women and also feminine looking men in this world.
I do agree with you, so please don't misinterpret what I'm saying as saying one must look a certain way. There are many places in NYC that are setup the way you suggested and they are great. The reality of transgender awareness about bathrooms has created more problems for cis women who are gender non-conforming or are just masculine than transgender women.
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on October 17, 2016, 12:06:59 AM
You asked this same question elsewhere and you will probably get a softer answer here.
OK. :)
QuoteSince you identify as male, you are not legally protected by anti-discrimination laws that protect gender identity to use the women's restroom because you don't identify as a woman.
That's not quite what I meant, though; rather, I was talking about suing against sex-selective restrooms as a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution due to the fact that such restrooms are a form of symmetric discrimination based on sex.
QuoteAt the same time you are worried about your safety if you use the men's bathroom when cross dressing which is certain understandable. If you look like a guy cross dressing and a transphobic guy sees you enter the women's bathroom you are still going to risk getting beat up.
Yes; correct! :( Indeed, it's certainly an
extremely huge shame that some transphobes unfortunately cannot keep their hands to themselves
at all times! :(
QuoteMost transgender women are not even going to attempt the women's bathroom unless they feel they blend enough to use the women's bathroom.
Are you completely, 100% sure about that?
QuoteIn that weird awkward stage of in between most us trans women used the men's or preferably only used single stall bathrooms. It sucks and isn't fair, but we have all been there, and in your case you should try your best to only use single stall or family bathrooms.
Very well; understood.
QuoteI personally don't have an issued with you using the women's bathroom if you blend well enough. However, I do have an issues if you don't and look like a dude in a dress. I'm not trying to be cruel but 90-95% of transgender women do not blend enough to the use the women's bathroom until a few months on HRT and are in a similar situation, so I'm having a hard time believing that you are able to blend that well. There is a huge difference between cross dressing men and transgender women, but the general public gets the two confused and often think both are the same thing. We are fighting for out right to use the bathroom the matches who we identify and present as. If someone like you is wanting to use the women's bathroom who identifies as male and cross dresses, it goes against what we are trying to do and only gives ammunition to the right wing conservatives that want to force us into the men's room by you enforcing a stereotype that doesn't really exist.
Understood.
QuoteThe bottom line is if you blend well enough fine, but it you look like you don't belong in the women's bathroom where it's obviously you are a cross dresser, then don't, your only hurting those of us that are transgender. If there are only multi-stall bathrooms see is a friend can go with you to protect you or hold it until you can get to a single stall bathroom. That's the best advice I can give. It sucks I know, but that the way it is. If there were no transphobes or homophobes, when this wouldn't even be an issue.
Understood; indeed, I will certainly try my best to follow your advice once I will begin cross-dressing (my body unfortunately currently isn't suitable for cross-dressing and thus needs to be improved before I can actually begin cross-dressing, though). :)
Also, though, if some transphobe actually tries to beat me up in the men's restroom for cross-dressing, then I will first try reasoning with this transphobe and, if that won't work, will try running out of the restroom as quickly as possible and possibly scream "Nazi!" at the top of my lungs while I'm doing this.
Indeed, people who engage and/or who are willing to engage in violence against other people for things such as gender identity and gender expression are certainly
extremely vile scum who deserve
immediate mental health treatment (and jail time, if they actually engaged in such violence); after all, such behavior certainly isn't either normal or acceptable by
any means! :(
Quote from: mac1 on October 17, 2016, 10:53:21 AM
Sydney that is exactly why I think that all public restrooms should be multi-user unisex with adequately private stalls and a common sink area. That will guarantee safety for all and provide for opposite sex parents and care providers to provide the necessary assistance.
P.S. Look around - there are many masculine looking women and also feminine looking men in this world.
Completely agreed with all of this! :)
Indeed, this is certainly something that should ideally be a complete non-issue! :(
I have to agree with Sydney although laws in my state be as they maybe you wouldn't likely be protected by the laws. I switched as soon as I went full time, but that was my personal preference, but I was on hormones little over two months later too and I was pushing my mom in her wheelchair in front of me much of that time so there is that having an affect on how people reacted too. If in doubt you might want to check what the laws in your area are. When single use bathroom's are available I see no reason you couldn't use the woman's. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on October 17, 2016, 12:06:59 AM
You asked this same question elsewhere and you will probably get a softer answer here.
Since you identify as male, you are not legally protected by anti-discrimination laws that protect gender identity to use the women's restroom because you don't identify as a woman. At the same time you are worried about your safety if you use the men's bathroom when cross dressing which is certain understandable. If you look like a guy cross dressing and a transphobic guy sees you enter the women's bathroom you are still going to risk getting beat up. Most transgender women are not even going to attempt the women's bathroom unless they feel they blend enough to use the women's bathroom. In that weird awkward stage of in between most us trans women used the men's or preferably only used single stall bathrooms. It sucks and isn't fair, but we have all been there, and in your case you should try your best to only use single stall or family bathrooms.
I personally don't have an issued with you using the women's bathroom if you blend well enough. However, I do have an issues if you don't and look like a dude in a dress. I'm not trying to be cruel but 90-95% of transgender women do not blend enough to the use the women's bathroom until a few months on HRT and are in a similar situation, so I'm having a hard time believing that you are able to blend that well. There is a huge difference between cross dressing men and transgender women, but the general public gets the two confused and often think both are the same thing. We are fighting for out right to use the bathroom the matches who we identify and present as. If someone like you is wanting to use the women's bathroom who identifies as male and cross dresses, it goes against what we are trying to do and only gives ammunition to the right wing conservatives that want to force us into the men's room by you enforcing a stereotype that doesn't really exist.
The bottom line is if you blend well enough fine, but it you look like you don't belong in the women's bathroom where it's obviously you are a cross dresser, then don't, your only hurting those of us that are transgender. If there are only multi-stall bathrooms see is a friend can go with you to protect you or hold it until you can get to a single stall bathroom. That's the best advice I can give. It sucks I know, but that the way it is. If there were no transphobes or homophobes, when this wouldn't even be an issue.
Not sure that the equal protection clause even applies in this case and since were are not lawyers well versed in law it would be best to ask the question to a lawyer if your referring to suing in regards to something. Likely you would have an uphill battle in this country doing so. Fact remains that even those like myself before SRS have an uphill battle as the laws are now in most places. My advice would be if in doubt use single use or family restrooms to be safe because as has been already stated in the woman's you may get a royal chewing out and the security or cops. In the mens, you could easily get physically hurt so yeah if I was in your situation I where you feel that one way or another neither bathroom would be safe I would stick to family restrooms and single use. That is just me. take that for what it is worth. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: Futurist on October 17, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
OK. :)
That's not quite what I meant, though; rather, I was talking about suing against sex-selective restrooms as a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution due to the fact that such restrooms are a form of symmetric discrimination based on sex.
Yes; correct! :( Indeed, it's certainly an extremely huge shame that some transphobes unfortunately cannot keep their hands to themselves at all times! :(
Are you completely, 100% sure about that?
Very well; understood.
Understood.
Understood; indeed, I will certainly try my best to follow your advice once I will begin cross-dressing (my body unfortunately currently isn't suitable for cross-dressing and thus needs to be improved before I can actually begin cross-dressing, though). :)
Also, though, if some transphobe actually tries to beat me up in the men's restroom for cross-dressing, then I will first try reasoning with this transphobe and, if that won't work, will try running out of the restroom as quickly as possible and possibly scream "Nazi!" at the top of my lungs while I'm doing this.
Indeed, people who engage and/or who are willing to engage in violence against other people for things such as gender identity and gender expression are certainly extremely vile scum who deserve immediate mental health treatment (and jail time, if they actually engaged in such violence); after all, such behavior certainly isn't either normal or acceptable by any means! :(
I live in Washington State. I used to think this issue would be a problem for me, but not any more. My state has affirmed that a transgender person can use the restroom that matches how they are presenting. At one time I thought this would be an issue, but women do not give me a second look as I wash my hands in the ladies room. Remember, there are plenty of cis women who by choice do not try to look all that feminine all the time, and they should not be second guessed, nor should we transgender people who present as female.
At least anywhere in Western Washington or Oregon it has never, ever been an issue for me.
If I present as a woman I use the women's room. Logical.
Quote from: Futurist on October 17, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
That's not quite what I meant, though; rather, I was talking about suing against sex-selective restrooms as a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution due to the fact that such restrooms are a form of symmetric discrimination based on sex.
I would suggest you save your money as the 14th Amendment was ratified in 1868 and the last thing anybody had on their mind was sexual equality.
The Equal Rights Amendment was never approved and the only sexual equality Amendment that was approved was the 19th Amendment which provided equality in voting.
Any federal equal right laws that are currently in existent are unconstitutional as the constitution didn't provide congress with the power to pass such laws. The courts will incorrectly provide gender protection but it's a house of cards if a constitutional judge takes the case.
Yes. It is always a tricky question.
It depends on how much you look feminine to the eyes of other people.
When I was gradually changing my appearance, all of the embarrassing cases happened in the men's, not women's bath room. My long hair alone caused fuss. When I visited Helsinki, I wore a formal men's dress. In the men's bathroom, one guy was entering, surprised and apologizing to me. And he checked again the door sign and entered again. In my country, men commented like "Pissing upright?"
Thereafter I gradually stopped entering men's bathroom. Women's bathrooms are cleaner and more comfortable. As I am very tall compared with most women here, some women are surprised at my height, but no problem at all. Even in the street, people tend to be surprised at my height when I am wearing high heels.
Another problem is at my university. All of the students know who I am. Both visitors and students use the bathrooms. I do not want to embarrass anybody and I always use the ones for handicapped people. The problem solved.
If you look feminine and surprise men in the bathroom, you have better start using women's.
BTW, I am not on HRT.
barbie~~
Quote from: Futurist on October 17, 2016, 01:33:28 PM
Are you completely, 100% sure about that?
I wouldn't do that, assuming the law even allows me to do it.
Nu uh, it just sounds like a recipe for disaster for me, until I look more... suitable.