So, me and a friend (who also has a background in psychology) were discussing how some young children will identify as trans (or sometimes cis) gender, but suddenly flip when they hit puberty. I was reading an article from one Gender researcher who talked about what it was like to identify as a boy until hormones hit and suddenly it was frilly dresses and tea parties. It's estimated that 40 to 60 percent of transgender children will "change their minds" during puberty, and this is the main argument against giving hormone blockers too early.
Here's the problem: 40 to 60 implies we have very poor data on the subject, and leaves us wondering how many of the children who "change their minds" are really trans but not accepting or have been pressured back into the closet, and how many of them would've been fine either way. I'm also wondering, with the high rate of Transgender children being pushed back into the box by their parents, how accurate these numbers can be: wouldn't this primarily be data from parents who let their young children "be free" and all that? How many of the children of non-accepting parents do this? Is there an age where this typically happens by? (I'm prone to believe that, if they're still trans at 16, they're not likely to change, but I have very little data) Where does the high rate of teenage girls who crossdress and the "trans-trender" thing he's obsessed with play into this? Where might intersex conditions like Klienfelters (0.25% of the population) play into this, knowing that they seem to have only a 66% chance of identifying with their assign gender, and may have a hormonal flip at puberty? How would this data affect the shaky estimates that 0.3 to 0.6 percent of the population is trans? How can that number possibly be accurate when 1) gender and sex are these spectrum/grid things, and 2) most of us are in the closet anyway?
If anyone has any more information on this, it's been a major topic of discussion with us lately, and I'd like more data for us to draw on... Anyone know if there's ever been a comprehensive study on this?
I've never heard of a trans child that would change his mind at puberty. I'm interested in knowing more.
You know, I'm looking for it... I've heard even more extreme numbers both ways, but that was the most unbiased and well cited set of articles I could find.
Like I said, it's a known phenomena with very little data.
Cindy mentioned that one evening in a Skype call and I found it quite interesting. It's one of the reasons for delay the hormone part of treatment until a child approaches 18 when the gender becomes stable.
In my case, I was a bit confused when I was younger but I learned somewhat poorly the male role. When puberty hit, my gender identity became strong enough to override any programming. I suspect I was alway one who was feminine and didn't switch but at an early age without a strong drive, I was programmable.
Quote from: Dena on October 29, 2016, 05:55:06 PMIn my case, I was a bit confused when I was younger but I learned somewhat poorly the male role. When puberty hit, my gender identity became strong enough to override any programming. I suspect I was alway one who was feminine and didn't switch but at an early age without a strong drive, I was programmable.
See, I have similar thoughts on myself. I was a quirky boy who played with the girls, then when I was around 13 I started thinking about what it would be like to have a different body, then I was periodically homeless and afraid for my life. Now I'm 25, and kicking myself for not dealing with this sooner...
And this is the issue here:
Too soon, and you have a bunch of 25 year olds upset that they transitioned too quick and regret it. Too late, and you have 25 year olds regretting not transitioning.
Honestly though, I'm also wondering if this is really even a problem worth tackling while we still see all these posts from people who can't transition for social/cultural reasons, or who ended up getting married because they were living that lie. How bad IS it to regret transitioning at that age, really?
I entered my first puberty with the childish hope that "the change" meant I would become the girl who lived in my heart and mind as an unspoken shadow. It was the early 1960s and i knew nothing of transgender as even that word had yet to be coined. The stark and awful truth was that I was then drenched in testosterone and those resultant physical developments were a reality shock. I became very cynical, felt alienated and entered a phase of resignation and despair. Like too many of us i tried to double down on "acting like a man." I grew up with the nonsense that being a soldier, dead or alive, guaranteed an heroic manhood. I was in the army at age 17, survived Vietnam and found myself to be queer with an adult boyfriend. Who i was with that boyfriend was a GIRL whether he knew it or not. Subsequent boyfriends and a wife did recognize my feminine side and responded with rejection. We learn to hide to survive.
I would guess that there are still plenty of teens who are challenged by our cultural paradigms, knuckle under and attempt to live according to an "assigned gender." Thank goodness more young people are now better educated, with more resources and willingness to tell and live their truth. I celebrate those who stand up for their truth and mourn for those individuals who still suffer in silence while trying to measure up to some rigidly reinforced stereotypes.
There is no way people who live in the closet are numerically accounted for. They remain invisible to the masses by choice, even if horribly coerced. Diagnosticians put an emphasis on persistence of gender identity with the inability to account for the powerful repression we might internalize as children. Dysphoria kills, fight back with your truth!
Anyone else here feel like their gender changed in a trans direction when they went through puberty?
I wouldn't wish my puberty on anyone,it was rough,i developed like a girl,mood swings,breast development(aa),body shape and mass all female,the problem was I was assigned male at birth. The only way I look male is with facial hair.
Quote from: cheryl reeves on November 02, 2016, 12:08:33 PMI wouldn't wish my puberty on anyone,it was rough,i developed like a girl,mood swings,breast development(aa),body shape and mass all female,the problem was I was assigned male at birth. The only way I look male is with facial hair.
You're intersex, right? Can I hear more about that? We're you treated for that as a minor, or..?
Never treated,but I had a general idea of what was going on from watching documentaries and porn magazine's on this. I was mean in a fight,never developed muscle mass like a guy but like a woman,i was strong but didn't look like it. The only way I pass as a man is facial hair,if I took female hormones I would finish a puberty that was stalled and I love my wife and she is fine with the dressing and makeup but not me being full-time, and I kinda like playing a guy at times.
In childhood I didn't think about really. I remember wanting to play with the girls sometimes but that wasn't socially allowed even in first grade. I told my mom once I wished I was a girl. Most of the time I was just a kid who didn't consciously think about gender.
Early puberty: As the hormones first started I often thought about what it would be like to be a girl. I imagined wearing girls clothes and what it would feel like. Confusing times at best. Sexual interest began. I found myself attracted to the girls. Couldn't really talk to them. Might have been different if I had been besties with a girl or had a sister.
Jr. High: My voice dropped and my pelvis grew wider overall but not hip spread. I would constantly pull at my shirt feeling like one of the guys would make fun of me for looking a little girlish. I vividly remember the pain from rounding corners too close and hitting door frames with the crest of my pelvis. I had bruises on both sides for a while. At home I would look at myself in the mirror and wish my hips would widen.
High school: still not dating, have a few friends. Only one best friend. We hung out all the time and would talk on the phone after school every few days. Whenever he wanted to do something or go somewhere I'd go along. He never really did anything I wanted to do. Later in life I came to realize he was my one "boy crush" I have ever had. Still couldn't flirt with girls, was way too shy. I loved classes where I got to work in a group and got to be "one of the girls" though. I didn't really understand it but it was fun. I would still look at myself in the mirror to judge how feminine I thought I looked. For the outside world it was too much but for me it was never enough
I have experienced strong female drives/instincts since puberty began. If other trans kids have a similar instinct response to puberty that might explain them deciding they are trans then.
From my experiences I would think its better to let the kid have T blockers until they are 18 then let them decide if they want to start HRT than the psych damage of forcing male puberty to mostly complete upon them.
The true gender doesn't necessary change, but rather how far you have reached in your own self discovering do change. Even though we human beings know our self, it do still take time to figuring out certain things with our self and we learns new things about our self as well.
There are transgender people who hasn't discovered they are trans yet and there are cisgender people who believes they are trans, before figuring out they aren't. I saw myself as cis pre-puberty, but during the puberty I thought I was transgender. But now I plans to detransistion since I don't think I'm transgender.
I have no idea what "gender" is. I'm a human being. When I was pre-puberty, I never mentionned being a girl. I was a boy and that was it. At 9 or 10 I started saying I was a girl. At 11 or 12 this was pretty much set in stone. From 13 to 20, life was hell. I started looking for transition on the internet at 17, but got scared. Nobody gave me information on this, or I would likely have transitionned before 20.
I consider myself as agender. But I really needed a vagina and oestrogens to get better and it worked. My body wanted it, my brain not really. I liked being a boy. Being a girl is a pain in the ass.
Now I wear boyish clothes, sometimes a long skirt, rarely a short ones. I present female because I don't want to get into troubles.
But I don't think I'm a woman. I'm not a man either. I'm just an individual that happened to need a MTF transition.
Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 05, 2016, 12:38:52 PMThe true gender doesn't necessary change, but rather how far you have reached in your own self discovering do change. Even though we human beings know our self, it do still take time to figuring out certain things with our self and we learns new things about our self as well.
Cite this please. It doesn't sound like a scientific theory...
QuoteI saw myself as cis pre-puberty, but during the puberty I thought I was transgender. But now I plans to detransistion since I don't think I'm transgender.
Ah! Please tell me about this. Why did you think you were trans? What did you do to attempt transition? Why did you change your mind?
I agree with Sebby. The more you introspect, learn, discover things about you, your past, your constructions... The more you can change (or not). I changed A LOT over time. I am happy I waited so long to transition because it allowed me to be sure about what I wanted.
I used to think I was a woman, but I don't think it was ever the case. I was always an individual. It's just that I'm super at ease with oestrogens and a vagina. Don't ask me why - it's like I was meant to have a female body.
But being a woman, socially ? Uuuur. I'm super butch, sure I have very cute feminine sides, but I'm mostly a man.
When I started taking oestrogens, I became another person, really. Now I feel SO MUCH BETTER in my body. I can't even remember how I could endure having a penis. I used to like my penis, but now the thought of having it again is terrifying. Funny isn't it ?
I'd say I am agender and always was agender. Or nonbinary, or two-spirit, or whatever you want to call it. I have few social dysphoria. Being considered a girl or a boy is equally a pain. Honnestly sometimes being a girl is suffocating. But well.
Body dysphoria used to be TERRIBLE, and now it's 95% gone. On that respect, yay for transition.
Quote from: Ange on November 07, 2016, 09:42:24 AM
I agree with Sebby. The more you introspect, learn, discover things about you, your past, your constructions... The more you can change (or not). I changed A LOT over time. I am happy I waited so long to transition because it allowed me to be sure about what I wanted.
I used to think I was a woman, but I don't think it was ever the case. I was always an individual. It's just that I'm super at ease with oestrogens and a vagina. Don't ask me why - it's like I was meant to have a female body.
But being a woman, socially ? Uuuur. I'm super butch, sure I have very cute feminine sides, but I'm mostly a man.
When I started taking oestrogens, I became another person, really. Now I feel SO MUCH BETTER in my body. I can't even remember how I could endure having a penis. I used to like my penis, but now the thought of having it again is terrifying. Funny isn't it ?
I'd say I am agender and always was agender. Or nonbinary, or two-spirit, or whatever you want to call it. I have few social dysphoria. Being considered a girl or a boy is equally a pain. Honnestly sometimes being a girl is suffocating. But well.
Body dysphoria used to be TERRIBLE, and now it's 95% gone. On that respect, yay for transition.
Do that mean you doesn't identifying yourself as any genders, but would rather having a female body than a male body? Difficult for me to being updated in the non-binary world...
Yep exactly.
I never really cared about gender, but sure I used to envy some advantages girls have. (like being cute, crying without looking ridiculous, etc.) But I also love being a guy because I can wear comfy clothes and not give a damn about anything. And society is so annoying when you're a girl.
Both gender stereotypes have their + and -. I can play both roles, but I'm mostly me : a super sensible and tender person that can be very harsh if necessary, that loves to wear lipstick, jeans, suits, fix things in the house, play videogames, be a geek... I'm super cool (yes I like myself :D ) and I hardly fit in either "man" or "woman" category. I'm both super feminine and super masculine and I'm totally OK with it.
But what IS true, however, is that my "man" body felt totally wrong, while my female body feels mostly right. Physically.
My transition was solely about my body. I don't care how I present, as long as my body feels right. I could wear a beard and a mustache all day long I would be totally fine with that. :D
Seems to me that we have a front row seat and unique perspectives regarding gender. Having lived for years as male and now female is a fascinating experience. The more I understand and can literally feel as a female person the greater regard I have for education and specifically gender studies.
If we are able to freely explore gender as children and mature with the freedom to accept ourselves "as is" the less likely gender dysphoria would be such a horrible reality for so many young people experiencing the wrong puberty. Too often all teens hear the dictates and admonitions to "grow up and act like a man" or "act like a lady." What a load of crap! Gender non conforming people would likely be much less of a minority if we were all able to feely express our genuine selves as children and teens.
It seems more parents these days understand how vital it is to be true to ourselves rather than settle for stereotypes. A lifetime of shame and denial vs a comfortable self acceptance and pride. How would we want our own children to feel?
Quote from: cheryl reeves on November 02, 2016, 12:08:33 PM
I wouldn't wish my puberty on anyone,it was rough,i developed like a girl,mood swings,breast development(aa),body shape and mass all female,the problem was I was assigned male at birth. The only way I look male is with facial hair.
If only hormone blockers had been available and I could have had them it would have been great. That way I could have avoided the wrong development. Actually it would have even been better if I could have taken female hormones but my parents would never agreed to that.
Quote from: mac1 on November 08, 2016, 04:04:49 PM
If only hormone blockers had been available and I could have had them it would have been great. That way I could have avoided the wrong development. Actually it would have even been better if I could have taken female hormones but my parents would never agreed to that.
I was raised a boy til puberty showed me I was a girl,that confused me for I have a boy part and went about trying to understand with the limited resources I had at hand. As for hormones there wasn't much data at that time on their usefulness,when I hit 18 information was getting a little better and I was thinking about transition but I like females and wanted a family so i compromised with myself that I would put on a male mask and found honesty was important,my wife knows about me and is fine with me dressing girly time to time as long as I put the male mask on time to time.
Quote from: cheryl reeves on November 11, 2016, 01:34:46 PM
I was raised a boy til puberty showed me I was a girl,that confused me for I have a boy part and went about trying to understand with the limited resources I had at hand. As for hormones there wasn't much data at that time on their usefulness,when I hit 18 information was getting a little better and I was thinking about transition but I like females and wanted a family so i compromised with myself that I would put on a male mask and found honesty was important,my wife knows about me and is fine with me dressing girly time to time as long as I put the male mask on time to time.
I wish that my wife could look at it like that.
Over the last couple of decades that the Internet has widely existed I've read hundreds of TG people's stories and it's always been apparent to me that there are distinctly different categories of TG people. There are definitely those who clearly feel from a very young age they are a different gender. I've never heard of one of those folks changing later. This category seems to be the rarest group, though.
Then there is the category I've called the thirteeners. I've run across many of these people. Most commonly they felt like normal boys until puberty and then felt desires to be more feminine. I basically fit this category myself. The situation is doubtless connected to sexual development, but the hows and whys are not clear. Some of these people grow to desire a full transition while others seem satisfied to live as males and be part time "crossdressers". Still others identify as androgynous or bi-gendered.
It seems rare that anyone states discovering such a desire in themselves after puberty, though many don't fully face the fact in themselves until many years later.
Quote from: PrincessCrystal on October 29, 2016, 04:05:14 PM
How can that number possibly be accurate when 1) gender and sex are these spectrum/grid things, and 2) most of us are in the closet anyway?
I don't know that gender and sex are a spectrum
for kids. Rather, I have the hunch that for most kids, especially very young ones, being trans is a straight-up, very traditionally binary, girl/boy thing.
My reasoning for this is that a more nuanced concept of gender is something that a) is rare anyway, and b) takes considerable time to arrive at.
Simpler gender systems (such as a strict binary, or a binary plus a "third gender") are much easier for younger kids to understand.
I mean, it's so much easier to say "I'm a girl" when you're only four years old than "I'm a poly-gendered person with a preference for feminine attire and the colour pink and my preferred pronouns are xe, xem and xir".
Maybe the observation that most trans kids change their minds reflects this evolving concept of gender. While early on a simplistic view of gender might make you think that "I'm not a girl" because you like to play with fire trucks rather than dolls, once you've grown up a bit you realise that girls can dig fire trucks just as bad as boys do, so maybe wanting to play with fire trucks doesn't make you a boy.
Also: kids' identities are very flexible and it's a mistake to consider them from the point of view of rigid adult identities who have had a lot of time to settle and much opportunity for refinement.
Quote from: PrincessCrystal on November 07, 2016, 09:27:40 AM
Cite this please. It doesn't sound like a scientific theory...
It's entirely legitimate to express views that are not scientific and are not backed by references to some literature.
Anyway, throwing "citation needed" tags in the middle of ordinary convos is
so early-noughties. You know, like LiveJournal, blogs and wikipedia? Nowadays, if you want to hit someone with an argument over the internets, you ask for
data. You use
statistics. "Hey-psst. What's the statistical significance of the research backing your claim, huh? And no p-hacking, thank you so much!" :|
It's interesting too because people who transition young tend to be the ones who adapt the best to their new sex when it comes to social aspects of life. Also 1+ years of dysphoria in a young person is almost certainly genuine.
Quote from: mac1 on November 08, 2016, 04:04:49 PM
If only hormone blockers had been available and I could have had them it would have been great. That way I could have avoided the wrong development. Actually it would have even been better if I could have taken female hormones but my parents would never agreed to that.
would agree with you, but if i could have been in the 40-60% that "change their minds". think i would have preferred that to be honest. how many of those truly change their minds or just go into hiding?