If not, read on. :D
The more I read about anatomy of the human body, the more I discover that the male and female bodies are quite similar. They are in fact homologous, until hormones rush in to develop certain traits. We know that all the lining of the male parts are essentially the same in females, the only difference is growth and location.
What I did not know, is that every male has an undeveloped uterus.
It seems, that a small part of the prostate in males is actually the undeveloped uterus:
The prostatic utricle is the homologue of the uterus and vagina
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostatic_utricle
So again, what is sex, other than a very slight difference in hormonal expression.
That would make sense to why the prostate Acts just like a gspot lol.
Never thought of it that way. Thanx.
It is this similarity that gives credence to what I have read about DES. http://desaction.org where my body was formed on testosterone but my brain developed on massive doses of synthetic estrogen. There are approx. 1.5 million DES Sons and an equal number of DES daughters. Sons got sexual confusion and heart disease. Daughters got Cancer. It was all about the timing of the administration of the drug. If it was first administered in week 8 to 18 and your mother had a history of miscarriages, there is a possibility you may have been exposed. Symptoms include mis-formed genitals, late descending testicles, small penis. Congestive Heart Failure, diabetes, heart valve deformity. The time period DES was available was between 1937 until it was found to be ineffective in 1972. There is still a usage in some foreign country's. Unfortunately to continue the right wing dialogue that this is a choice there has been no real studies on the subject since 2004, and that was a very limited study. All human bodies start out as female when the gonads become active and start producing testosterone and the body develops male traits. Until these massive doses of DES often 3000 to 5000 times the estrogen in birth control pills, overtake the T, and the brain develops on estrogen. Thus the confusion. Unfortunately you are left with a penis and an early knowledge that something is wrong that can haunt you all your life.
What explains today's MTF transsexual children if not for DES? Plastics in water bottles, water containers, pesticides with estrogenic properties?
DES Grandchildren
Mice are recognized as good predictors of the human experience. When mice are given DES at the time of development, the resulting health problems in their offspring mirror those seen in human DES Daughters and DES Sons. When their offspring, the DES Grandchildren mice, exhibited health problems, researchers raised a warning flag.
Scientists are taking what they learned from animal studies to investigate whether a drug given to their grandmothers has affected human DES Grandchildren. As study results come in, there is growing evidence that the DES Grandchild generation has been adversely impacted. How that could happen is explained in an excellent article about transgenerational epigenetics published in Mother Jones magazine. The last paragraph addresses the DES experience. As described, toxic exposures don't actually mutate DNA, but rather they alter how specific genes turn themselves off and on to do the work they are supposed to do in the body. If not activated properly, because of exposure to DES in a previous generation, then health problems may develop.
Due to the lack of funding by the Republican party there has been only limited research being done. I suspect that the findings may interfere with the dogma that being transgender is a choice. Now if you take the 1.5 million DES sons and1.5 million Des daughters and consider their millions of grandchildren who's DNA may be affected. Earlier generations it was about the drug itself. Todays surge may be due to DNA. Until someone is courageous enough to authorize study we are stuck in limbo. All I know is that of all my health related problems, every one is a symptom of DES use.
Finally today there are many things similar to the effects of DES.Steroid Hormone Implants Used for Growth in Food-Producing Animals. Since the 1950s, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved a number of steroid hormone drugs for use in beef cattle and sheep, including natural estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, and their synthetic versions.
I hope this satisfactorily answers your question.
Quote from: Mohini on November 06, 2016, 04:37:56 PM
What explains today's MTF transsexual children if not for DES? Plastics in water bottles, water containers, pesticides with estrogenic properties?
The same thing that happened to me. While I am old enough for DES, I suspect my mother didn't take it as I came along about a month after they were married. Many years ago my T was tested and they said it was low but within the normal male range. I suspect I just didn't put out enough T while I was developing to finish the job. My body is mostly male with some feminine features but my brain took the biggest it by developing fully feminine.
Quote from: Dena on November 06, 2016, 05:22:03 PM
The same thing that happened to me. While I am old enough for DES, I suspect my mother didn't take it as I came along about a month after they were married. Many years ago my T was tested and they said it was low but within the normal male range. I suspect I just didn't put out enough T while I was developing to finish the job. My body is mostly male with some feminine features but my brain took the biggest it by developing fully feminine.
I don't know for sure as all my mothers medical records are gone, and Dr. Lewis died about 40 years ago. What I do know is that it has been a compelling emotion to feel something is askew, and not know the reason, or what to do about it. When I first came to Susans I just knew I was a cross dresser all my life. Now a lifetime dream is taking shape and my personality is taking shape in a female mindset. Just like in the womb.
I have said it before and I will do it again, Dena I think of you as a pathfinder setting the stage for those to come. Your transition at an early age at a time of very limited opportunities is inspiring. The fact you had the courage to pursue your truth at the same time I was wishing and praying because I didn't know any better.
DawnOday,
Thanks for your response. The implications are troublesome, because it sounds like the problem emerged in the DES generation (born up to 70s), started to become move evident in the next generation, and now, children today are exhibiting the original problem of these drugs and treatments used medically and in the food supply in a MUSHROOMING fashion. It's only getting worse because apparently, through epigenetics, how the DNA codes are acted upon by genes and other things is affected by whether the coils around specific DNA strands are tightened, loosened, or something other than what it should be. This is huge, because it can mean that a significant portion of the population will becomes sterile, non-reproducing because the children will transition so early that they don't give their bodies a chance to produce sperm/eggs to bear children.
It was indicated in another article on epigenentics that this could be a big shift in therapy, how things are changed at the DNA coil level (right, there is not necessarily a DNA mutation, but how the strands are coiled, which can give rise to how a person responds to a particular environmental stimuli - why does this teenager recoil at the sight of the ground below from an airplane, while the next child thinks it's the coolest thing and later becomes a pilot). The huge thing about epigenetic therapy is that it would alter not only the way the body responds/develops, but also the person. After a person goes through epigenetic therapy for something emotional rather than physiological, the question may become, "Will that person even remain the same person as before, or would we have someone who may or may not remember us in the same way, look at things entirely differently, i.e., that original person is gone, period?" What if this epigenetics can be abused to create an army of office workers who show up on time, never complain about their routine, are afraid of confrontation, and have a very docile personality? Other creations could be made by this method.
Quote from: Mohini on November 06, 2016, 07:50:01 PM
This is huge, because it can mean that a significant portion of the population will becomes sterile, non-reproducing because the children will transition so early that they don't give their bodies a chance to produce sperm/eggs to bear children.
Children are a huge hassle and financial drain anyway. I would basically have to slave away for most of my life.
Additionally, this isn't really a problem. Not with stem cell research in the works.
Also, children aren't permitted to transition early because it's against the law in quite a few countries.
For the most part, I can see stem cell research becoming highly prominent once people get over the mind-set of God disapproving of it. God seems to disapprove of all progress from how I've seen people act.
Wow, I never thought of that. I was born in 1971 and have cardiovacular disease, osteoporose (which is rare for a biological male) and obviously am transsexual. These were all mentioned in the list of DES related conditions I just read.
Quote from: DawnOday on November 06, 2016, 02:42:10 PM
It is this similarity that gives credence to what I have read about DES. http://desaction.org where my body was formed on testosterone but my brain developed on massive doses of synthetic estrogen. There are approx. 1.5 million DES Sons and an equal number of DES daughters. Sons got sexual confusion and heart disease. Daughters got Cancer. It was all about the timing of the administration of the drug. If it was first administered in week 8 to 18 and your mother had a history of miscarriages, there is a possibility you may have been exposed. Symptoms include mis-formed genitals, late descending testicles, small penis. Congestive Heart Failure, diabetes, heart valve deformity.
I was a victim of DES exposure. After coming out to family, I was told by my mom that she was assured that she was going to give birth to a girl, but due to high risk complication in the last few weeks before I was born, she was given DES to prevent miscarriage. (Born in the mid 60's) Of the things you listed, I was born with Swyer syndrome and gonadal dysgenesis with labial fusion. (amongst other ailments) My parents were informed of my complex physical problems, but had ultimately opted to raise me male. (Born in a military hospital in Texas during the middle of the Vietnam war may have influenced their decision though) Since then I've developed congestive heart failure, have suffered a major heart attack, have diabetes, and my current cardiologist is considering minor surgery to repair a large PDA that's causing circulatory difficulties. Almost a perfect match for the symptoms you listed.
Back around 2001-2003 there was a great DES Sons/Daughters group on Yahoo, but unfortunately that group no longer exists.
I'm lucky in that my mother's medical records still exist and she was never prescribed DES or anything similar.. Her mother didn't recall taking anything pregnancy related.
And yet I'm a transsexual. I had normal hormone levels before, however, I did/do have some physical traits that some may label as feminine. DES clearly has no bearing on why I am trans.
DES is an answer for some.. But there are many of us who have no DES exposure and no exposure to anything similar.
Quote from: Mohini on November 06, 2016, 04:37:56 PM
What explains today's MTF transsexual children if not for DES? Plastics in water bottles, water containers, pesticides with estrogenic properties?
A malfunctioning endocrine system in a pregnant woman is sufficient, it wouldn't need to be environmental. Trans people have been around longer than our ability to create such environmental factors.
Quote from: AngieT on November 07, 2016, 01:15:25 PM
I was a victim of DES exposure. After coming out to family, I was told by my mom that she was assured that she was going to give birth to a girl, but due to high risk complication in the last few weeks before I was born, she was given DES to prevent miscarriage. (Born in the mid 60's) Of the things you listed, I was born with Swyer syndrome and gonadal dysgenesis with labial fusion. (amongst other ailments) My parents were informed of my complex physical problems, but had ultimately opted to raise me male. (Born in a military hospital in Texas during the middle of the Vietnam war may have influenced their decision though) Since then I've developed congestive heart failure, have suffered a major heart attack, have diabetes, and my current cardiologist is considering minor surgery to repair a large PDA that's causing circulatory difficulties. Almost a perfect match for the symptoms you listed.
Back around 2001-2003 there was a great DES Sons/Daughters group on Yahoo, but unfortunately that group no longer exists.
First off, unless the drugs were administered in the first trimester it probably would not change your maturity. So maybe it was administered earlier than you thought. Maybe the doctors caught something early on. In an ironic twist the very symptoms that propagate the belief one may have been exposed is also the one thing that can keep you from getting the relief you seek. Heart disease I believed was preventing me from seeking transition, so I remained ignorant for 25 years. As to DES Girls. who got various cancers, the drug companies and hospitals settled lawsuits with payouts. Not so DES Sons because of proposed lawsuits being dismissed by the drug companies that had already paid out millions to the women. Add to that faulty religious dogma have conspired to limit research or even acknowledging that being Transgender may not be a choice.
Quote from: kelly_aus on November 07, 2016, 01:24:11 PM
I'm lucky in that my mother's medical records still exist and she was never prescribed DES or anything similar.. Her mother didn't recall taking anything pregnancy related.
And yet I'm a transsexual. I had normal hormone levels before, however, I did/do have some physical traits that some may label as feminine. DES clearly has no bearing on why I am trans.
DES is an answer for some.. But there are many of us who have no DES exposure and no exposure to anything similar.
A malfunctioning endocrine system in a pregnant woman is sufficient, it wouldn't need to be environmental. Trans people have been around longer than our ability to create such environmental factors.
Do you eat meat, gmo laced grains? If so you may have gotten the female hormones from the foods you eat. Now think about that milk your Mother gave you. Dairy's in my area are bragging about not having rBST in their products. Here is some information on your environment you may not know. And yes, I can almost guarantee you have been exposed to hormones not of your own making. http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/X6533E/X6533E01.htm
Here is an article that may explain it to you.
Both groups are still there, but are hidden.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/des-trans/info
Quote from: AngieT on November 07, 2016, 01:15:25 PM
Back around 2001-2003 there was a great DES Sons/Daughters group on Yahoo, but unfortunately that group no longer exists.
Quote from: DawnOday on November 07, 2016, 02:06:28 PM
Do you eat meat, gmo laced grains? If so you may have gotten the female hormones from the foods you eat. Now think about that milk your Mother gave you. Dairy's in my area are bragging about not having rBST in their products. Here is some information on your environment you may not know. And yes, I can almost guarantee you have been exposed to hormones not of your own making. http://www.fao.org/docrep/004/X6533E/X6533E01.htm
Here is an article that may explain it to you.
My comments did not exclude environmental factors, yes, I'm sure in some cases they do play a part. My comments was really just intended to point out that an out of spec endocrine system was enough.
There's clearly an agenda at work in this thread and it's not one I agree with, so I'll bow out at this point. I understand the need for someone/something to blame, I'm just not sure that there always is something to blame.
Not blaming anyone or anything. I am comfortable with my decision to transition. But, seven, eight months ago when I was having a breakdown just prior to what would have been my 40th anniversary, . I went to the therapist and we worked out the how. I came here to seek answers on why I would not fight for the love of my life. Any guy would love to be associated with her. Pretty, smart and a rockin hard body. Heck even I had a hard body back then. Wendy was my alpha and omega. By my third visit to the therapist it was decided because of my past I was more than likely transgender. Kristi wrote my letter and I was on my way. I came across the DES site and discovered how my symptoms dovetailed with the observed symptoms in DES affected persons. I had always blamed my mother because she was kind of weird and I thought I had Mommy issues. But no. I more than likely asked my Mother to dress me up in my sisters costumes, to which she obliged. The stage for what I was to become, was set and a lifetime of longing to be the other me was established. According to Kristi I had alienated my ex by ignoring her because I had another lover. Me. DES is just one possible scenario, but it does relieve me to know it was not her adultery that prompted our breakup. Or blaming my poor Mom. It's not an only explanation but it does merit study and the more people informed means a better cohort of possible research participants and might just be the breakthrough that gains us acceptance by the general population. Knowledge is nothing to be afraid of. I am aware enough to understand your experience is yours and mine is mine. I was just putting it out there for general consumption. My point was to show that DES has been banned for miscarriages but has not been banned for meat processing.
Respectfully
Dawn
Quote from: Mohini on November 06, 2016, 04:37:56 PM
What explains today's MTF transsexual children if not for DES? Plastics in water bottles, water containers, pesticides with estrogenic properties?
There's a drug called hydroxyprogestrone caproate, that's in current, widespread use in many parts of the world in pregnancies where the mother has a history of recurrent premature birth, or who develops symptoms of threatened abortion during her pregnancy. From what I've read about its properties, I think there's a very good chance that biologically male babies exposed to it could end up MTF trans. Like DES, it's an artificial female hormone, and it's being given to pregnant women in doses that would have pronounced feminizing effects on an adult man, if he were to be given the same. There's a number of other pregnancy hormone treatments where the same thing applies too. It's also possible that some nonhormonal drugs that interfere with hormone metabolism (in particular epilepsy medicines), might be depressing testosterone levels in unborn male babies enough for them to end up with a feminized brain.
If one of these drugs can cause large numbers of people to end up trans without medical professionals realizing what's happening, that makes it much more likely that there are other drugs doing the same thing. That (aside from the sheer injustice of what's been done to us and people like us), is why it's so important that the word gets out about what happened with DES.
Hydroxyprogesterone caproate is a progestogen with similar properties to progesterone that is produced in high quantities during pregnancy. It does not have estrogenic effects, only progestogenic ones. As such, how could it induce feminization of the brain? Is there any evidence supporting your thoughts?
Quote from: KayXo on November 09, 2016, 08:40:35 PM
Hydroxyprogesterone caproate is a progestogen with similar properties to progesterone that is produced in high quantities during pregnancy. It does not have estrogenic effects, only progestogenic ones. As such, how could it induce feminization of the brain? Is there any evidence supporting your thoughts?
Well, more accurately, it could prevent masculinization of the brain taking place, by suppressing testosterone production.
People often seem to assume that, just because DES is a very powerful estrogen, it caused MTF transsexuality through estrogenic effects on brain development. I think it actually causes female brain development in male fetuses by shutting down testicular hormone production. This is due to the fact that male brain development (as with other aspects of sexual development) is driven by the action of androgenic hormones produced in the testicles (primarily testosterone and DHT), and without those hormones, development occurs as female instead. Although there are species differences, in primates, the sex you develop as appears to be entirely determined by androgen levels, and estrogens don't appear to play any significant role.
It's not actually the Y chromosome that causes a genetically male person to develop as male. All the Y chromosome does is cause the undifferentiated gonads to turn into testicles, it's the hormones produced by the testicles that actually drive male development. If, for whatever reason, the testicles fail to develop and produce their hormones, then a genetically male fetus will develop as female. Here's an example I found on youtube of someone this actually happened to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo35FYFUp4c
The particular condition she has, Frazier's Syndrome, involves a mutation that has nothing to do with the X or Y chromosomes. What it does is to knock out a gene that is required in order for the undifferentiated gonads to turn into testicles or ovaries, and without that gene, they remain forever trapped in their undifferentiated state. Although she is genetically male and her Y chromosome is completely normal and fully functioning, her gonads remained undifferentiated and never turned into testicles. No testicular hormones were produced during her prenatal development, and because of that, she developed as female instead of male. You can see the results in that video. Provided the NHS didn't butcher her, she will have the full set of female internal organs too, including cervix, uterus and fallopian tubes.
In other words, it's the testicles and the hormones they produce that cause a fetus to develop as male, and without those hormones, development occurs as female instead.
Aside from the fact that they mimic female hormones, one interesting property both synthetic estrogens (such as DES) and "synthetic progesterone" (progestins such as hydroxyprogesterone caproate) have in common, is that if you give them to an adult man in a high enough dose, they induce a state of "chemical castration" - they shut down testicular hormone production so completely that it effectively ceases altogether, so the testicles might as well no longer be there as far as hormone production is concerned. The effect only continues for as long as the drug continues being administered though, once it's discontinued, the testicles resume producing testosterone.
Perhaps you can see what could happen to a male fetus who is exposed to these drugs in utero. By temporarily shutting down his testicular hormone production, it could result in him ending up in a situation where some parts of his prenatal development occurred as male, and some parts as female. That's what I think has happened with DES, and could be happening with hydroxyprogesterone caproate (and other similar progestin-based treatments).
It just so happens that, because of the way development occurs in the unborn child and the way these treatments tend to be prescribed, that you tend to get a high exposure during the time the brain is developing and a much smaller (or zero) exposure during the critical period for genital development, so they're tending to produce people with a relatively normal male appearance, and it's the brain that is ending up female instead.
With DES, I know for a fact that, under the standard treatment plan for miscarriage prevention devised by Drs George and Olive Smith, the doses being used were more than 10x higher than that required for total suppression of testosterone in adult men, throughout the second half of the pregnancy.
With hydroxprogesterone caproate, I couldn't find any examples of where it's been used on its own for testosterone suppression in adult men, however the doses that are being used during pregnancy look enormous, and I'm sure if you were to give the same to an adult man, he'd experience profound testosterone suppression. Progestins are highly effective as chemical castration agents (in fact, the most commonly used drug in the US for chemical castration of sex offenders is Depo Provera, a progestin).
Quote from: HughE on November 12, 2016, 07:28:55 PMAside from the fact that they mimic female hormones, one interesting property both synthetic estrogens (such as DES) and "synthetic progesterone" (progestins such as hydroxyprogesterone caproate) have in common, is that if you give them to an adult man in a high enough dose, they induce a state of "chemical castration" - they shut down testicular hormone production so completely that it effectively ceases altogether, so the testicles might as well no longer be there as far as hormone production is concerned. The effect only continues for as long as the drug continues being administered though, once it's discontinued, the testicles resume producing testosterone.
Bio-identical estradiol and progesterone will also induce a state of chemical castration in an adult man in a high enough dose. During pregnancy, both of these hormones' concentrations are very high in the maternal serum and the umbilical cord.
QuotePerhaps you can see what could happen to a male fetus who is exposed to these drugs in utero. By temporarily shutting down his testicular hormone production, it could result in him ending up in a situation where some parts of his prenatal development occurred as male, and some parts as female. That's what I think has happened with DES, and could be happening with hydroxyprogesterone caproate (and other similar progestin-based treatments).
Then why does this not occur with high levels of estradiol and progesterone, present in the woman and in the embryo, during pregnancy and which work in the same way and shut down testicular production? Your explanation doesn't account for this.
QuoteWith DES, I know for a fact that, under the standard treatment plan for miscarriage prevention devised by Drs George and Olive Smith, the doses being used were more than 10x higher than that required for total suppression of testosterone in adult men, throughout the second half of the pregnancy.
During pregnancy, levels of estradiol and progesterone are naturally several fold higher than the levels needed for total suppression of testosterone in adult men. Levels of estradiol can go as high as 75,000 pg/ml when less than 1,000 would probably suffice to suppress testicular production. Levels of progesterone can go as high as 300 ng/ml, higher than what is needed to suppress testicular production.
Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2003 Apr;58(4):506-12."Both progesterone and desogestrel administration resulted in decreases in the concentration of both LH and FSH secretion, as well as testosterone. Analysis of the pulsatile nature of LH secretion indicated that both treatments reduced LH pulse amplitude, and that progesterone reduced LH pulse frequency. Progesterone, but not desogestrel, treatment also reduced the increase in LH secretion in response to GnRH."
QuoteWith hydroxprogesterone caproate, I couldn't find any examples of where it's been used on its own for testosterone suppression in adult men, however the doses that are being used during pregnancy look enormous, and I'm sure if you were to give the same to an adult man, he'd experience profound testosterone suppression.
There is plateau at which the testicles just shut down completely so that beyond a certain dose, you no longer get any return, any more increased suppression.
QuoteProgestins are highly effective as chemical castration agents (in fact, the most commonly used drug in the US for chemical castration of sex offenders is Depo Provera, a progestin).
Bio-identical estradiol and progesterone are just as effective, in high enough doses which produce lower concentrations than that typically found during pregnancy.
Quote from: KayXo on November 12, 2016, 11:07:54 PM
Bio-identical estradiol and progesterone will also induce a state of chemical castration in an adult man in a high enough dose. During pregnancy, both of these hormones' concentrations are very high in the maternal serum and the umbilical cord.
I can tell you from my own personal experience that, once your body has adapted to it being there, bioidentical progesterone (in the form of cream) is not T suppressive, even in high, pregnancy level doses. Progestins, on the other hand, are strongly T suppressive, even in doses a lot smaller than those used in maternity treatment. I know this for a fact because I've experimented on myself with both!
Estradiol is T suppressive in adult men, however the situation for the fetus during pregnancy is complicated by the fact that the fetus and placenta produce very high levels of two estrogens, estriol and estetrol, that act as estradiol blockers. There's probably other stuff going on with hormone degrading enzymes as well, that limits fetal exposure to estradiol. One thing I've found is that no one seems to actually know what blood hormone levels are during late term gestation in human fetuses in situ, and they've probably never been studied. Looking at premature babies doesn't give you an answer, since once the baby has been delivered, it's no longer receiving hormones from either the placenta or the mother.
Synthetic estrogens (and synthetic hormones in general) bypass all the body's hormone processing enzymes, hormone binding globulins and other systems for controlling and limiting what the natural hormones do. This means that they can have all sorts of effects, and do all sorts of stuff, that the natural hormones can't. Another factor with DES in particular is that the doses used were insanely high (around 1000x higher than are now used with equivalent synthetic estrogens), meaning that it's more or less inevitable that you'd get full estrogen receptor activation, despite the presence of the antiestrogens estriol and estetrol.
One other thing is that, in adult men, estradiol primarily suppresses T by suppressing LH production. LH is what drives T production in adult men, but in the fetus, up until about week 20, T production is primarily driven by HCG produced in the placenta (HCG acts as an analogue of LH as far as the testicles are concerned). LH produced in the fetal pituitary only take over after about week 20, when placental HCG production falls away, and the fetal hypothalamus and pituitary have matured to the point where they start producing significant amounts of LH. Since the period from week 20 onwards seems to be more important as far as "brain sex" is concerned (whereas the first half of the pregnancy is when all your physical sexual characteristics develop), this could be another factor making the brain more likely to be affected than the genitals when synthetic hormones are used during pregnancy.
I can't talk actual doses on this site, but I've found a paper talking about the use of medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) for chemical castration of sex offenders. It shows that a weekly milligram amount of MPA that's almost the same as the weekly milligram amount of hydroxyprogesterone caproate used for preventing miscarriage, will reliably suppress an adult man's T production to female levels or below. They're different drugs, but they have fairly similar pharmacological properties. The main difference between the two is that hydroxyprogesterone caproate is a pure progestin, whereas MPA, in addition to acting as a progestin, cross reacts to a limited extent with androgen receptors and glucocorticoid receptors, which makes it less desirable for use during pregnancy. In my mind that raises a huge warning flag that hydroxyprogesterone caproate treatment could be suppressing T production in late gestation male fetuses, thereby preventing their brains from masculinising, and producing babies that look male but have female brains.
I don't have any figures for the number of pregnancies it's been used in, but hydroxyprogesterone caproate was first introduced in 1956 under the brand name Delalutin, and has remained in use ever since. It's currently marketed as Makena in the US, and Proluton in Europe. It's also sold as Gravibinan, and probably a whole range of other brand names too. My guess is that the total number of people exposed to it is well in excess of the number who were exposed to DES.
Transexual / transgender people have been around as long as humans, I have no idea whether there incidence is higher in the last few decades but clearly the hormonal anomalies that cause the changes in brain structure in-utero can happen without human intervention or modern chemical pollutants.
Quote from: HughE on November 20, 2016, 07:05:39 AM
I can tell you from my own personal experience that, once your body has adapted to it being there, bioidentical progesterone (in the form of cream) is not T suppressive, even in high, pregnancy level doses. Progestins, on the other hand, are strongly T suppressive, even in doses a lot smaller than those used in maternity treatment. I know this for a fact because I've experimented on myself with both!
The cream you used resulted in pregnancy serum levels of progesterone? I recall reading somewhere that eventually the area of application gets saturated and that you no longer absorb P to the same extent. Could that have been the reason? Also, studies have shown that creams yield very low levels of P in the blood.
This evidence is also anecdotal so not very convincing to me. The rest is, as far as estrogen is concerned.
QuoteIn my mind that raises a huge warning flag that hydroxyprogesterone caproate treatment could be suppressing T production in late gestation male fetuses, thereby preventing their brains from masculinising, and producing babies that look male but have female brains.
If progesterone levels are as high as they are during pregnancy, they would also suppress T production and your claim of habituation or desensitization needs more support, as far as I'm concerned. Sample of 1 is not good enough.
In the end, these are all theories and there is no real proof of brain feminization. It will be hard to prove. Our feelings may stem for psychological reasons purely. And who cares? I don't need any of that to justify being female and transitioning. It feels right to me. End of story.
Scientific proof is only needed for those who are prejudiced, for society to finally respect us and provide equal and fair treatment, for those who doubt themselves to finally not doubt themselves. But I say instead, embrace yourself now as you are, trust in yourself and your feelings and those people that love us, embrace us no matter the reason, those are the really good people in this world, pure of heart.
End of rant! ;D
I guess I'm at the point now where even if I found out I was a DES child it wouldn't really matter that much.
If my mom took it and that's why I'm transgender then I'm fine with it. To borrow from computer language, I actually don't see it as a bug. I see it as a feature.
Quote from: KayXo on November 20, 2016, 10:14:03 PM
The cream you used resulted in pregnancy serum levels of progesterone? I recall reading somewhere that eventually the area of application gets saturated and that you no longer absorb P to the same extent. Could that have been the reason? Also, studies have shown that creams yield very low levels of P in the blood.
Who knows what the effect is on serum levels, as I haven't ever had my P levels measured. It's the 10 percent cream though (the strongest one on the market). Like the P creams I've used before, once your body adapts to it, it doesn't have any noticeable effects at all apart from a subtle mood brightening effect. However, it's worth taking, because without it, I get symptoms of estrogen excess (mainly fluid retention, especially in my legs). Also, prior to starting on hormones, I was experiencing some quite alarming neurological symptoms (tinnitus, vertigo, acephalgic migraines), which have stopped since I started taking hormones. I don't know for sure if it't the P that is providing this beneficial effect, but from what I've read about it, it probably is. P has neuroprotective effects and been used experimentally as an antiseizure medication (it's thought to mainly produce these beneficial effects by converting to allopregnanolone, an important neurosteroid).
Quote
In the end, these are all theories and there is no real proof of brain feminization.
Actually there is. The link to ->-bleeped-<- may be contentious, but it's been known for a long time that being prenatally exposed to synthetic estrogens or progestins has permanent, lifelong effects on people's personality and behaviour, that can (and have been) measured in psychological tests.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj150%2Fmightyhugh%2FProgestin%2520and%2520estrogen%2520personality%2520factors%2520Table%25201%2520Reinisch%25201977_zpscizm49sb.png&hash=2d71680ea33743e9fa1e629554a261b38c423429)
This is from a 1977 study of male and female children who'd been prenatally exposed to synthetic hormones (estrogens, mainly DES, or progestins). The hormone-exposed children were compared with their unexposed siblings as controls, and as you can see, significant differences in the personality traits measured were noted. The main difference in the estrogen exposed group vs controls is that they're more group oriented and group dependent. With the progestin exposed group, they're more independent, more sensitive, strongly individualistic, strongly self assured, and more self sufficient.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi79.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj150%2Fmightyhugh%2FBrainSex_ch2009_zps8f4ae3b5.gif&hash=f28fd124c627a273063d12e8734af3f1b2c39ede)
This excerpt from the book "Brain Sex", which seems to mainly have had its origin in that study and other similar ones carried out by Dr Reinisch, has articulated what has been left unsaid in those studies. Basically, estrogens tend to induce feminization of behaviour (particularly in males), whereas progestins tend to masculinize it (particularly in females).
Most of the early progestins were androgenic, so it's an open question as to whether pure progestins such as hydroxyprogesterone caproate would act in the same way, and whether their overall effect is masculinizing or feminizing. Also, if I'm right that both DES and progestins inhibit fetal testicular hormone production, then by lumping boys and girls together, a lot of nuances of what has actually happened have been lost, because both types of hormone will have strongly feminizing effects on males purely by virtue of shutting down their testicular T production (whereas girls won't have comparable feminizing effects because they have no testicles).
Quote
It will be hard to prove. Our feelings may stem for psychological reasons purely. And who cares? I don't need any of that to justify being female and transitioning. It feels right to me. End of story.
If it were known that a lot of people have ended up trans as a result of a medical mistake (and that for all trans people, it's basically a form of intersex, except one in which the main effects have been on the brain), I think it would go a long way towards reducing prejudices and increasing acceptance of transgender people. There's also the fact that medical treatment during pregnancy involving synthetic hormones and hormone disrupting drugs is still taking place, and it's highly likely that kids are continuing to be born trans as a result. Don't you think that's something that should be addressed?
Here is another nice list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_related_male_and_female_reproductive_organs
Quote from: HughE on November 24, 2016, 05:55:23 AM
Who knows what the effect is on serum levels, as I haven't ever had my P levels measured. It's the 10 percent cream though (the strongest one on the market).
But you mentioned pregnancy levels, and talked about personal experience.
"I can tell you
from my own personal experience that, once your body has adapted to it being there, bioidentical progesterone (in the form of cream)
is not T suppressive, even in high, pregnancy level doses."
How do you know this then? I'm confused.
QuoteLike the P creams I've used before, once your body adapts to it, it doesn't have any noticeable effects at all apart from a subtle mood brightening effect.
Not my experience and I take P twice daily orally. The effect can be quite pronounced, still. If I skip a dose, I start to feel groggy, and will even get hot flashes.
QuoteHowever, it's worth taking, because without it, I get symptoms of estrogen excess (mainly fluid retention, especially in my legs).
So, noticeable effects do persist.
QuoteActually there is. The link to ->-bleeped-<- may be contentious, but it's been known for a long time that being prenatally exposed to synthetic estrogens or progestins has permanent, lifelong effects on people's personality and behaviour, that can (and have been) measured in psychological tests.
Feeling male or female vs having personality traits are that more feminine vs masculine is not the same. Many transgender women and men were not exposed to DES or progestins in the womb.
QuoteIf it were known that a lot of people have ended up trans as a result of a medical mistake (and that for all trans people, it's basically a form of intersex, except one in which the main effects have been on the brain), I think it would go a long way towards reducing prejudices and increasing acceptance of transgender people.
And that, in my opinion, would be sad. Because if we need to provide this sort of evidence for them to accept us and not be prejudiced, then that says a lot about who they truly are. Accepting us now, just because we say so and feel it, now that is right and pure! Many transgendered women and men have not had anything bad happen to them, no extra hormones in the womb, etc? Are they illegitimate? Less than? Crazy, psychotic? See the problem with this?
QuoteThere's also the fact that medical treatment during pregnancy involving synthetic hormones and hormone disrupting drugs is still taking place, and it's highly likely that kids are continuing to be born trans as a result. Don't you think that's something that should be addressed?
I don't believe hydroxyprogesterone caproate to be that different from progesterone and consider it safe enough. So, I don't see a problem using it for preventing abortion, maintaining pregnancy and preventing pre-term birth. Only this progestogen, bio-identical progesterone and estradiol are prescribed. I see no problem there. What else?
Like I said, lots of transpeople, the majority, probably didn't even get exposed to extra hormones during pregnancy so that attributing transsexuality to this or that is just too simplistic and there is much evidence lacking.
Quote from: KayXo on November 24, 2016, 08:47:43 AM
But you mentioned pregnancy levels, and talked about personal experience.
"I can tell you from my own personal experience that, once your body has adapted to it being there, bioidentical progesterone (in the form of cream) is not T suppressive, even in high, pregnancy level doses."
How do you know this then? I'm confused.
Because I use progesterone cream. You can buy it online without a prescription. It's marketed towards postmenopausal women, but that doesn't stop other people from using it. I used to use the regular strength stuff (which involves significantly less progesterone per dose than Prometrium tablets), but this year I started using a cream that contains 10 percent progesterone, and so the dose I'm now getting per day is similar to what a Prometrium capsule contains. The difference is that it's absorbed through the skin rather than the digestive tract, so it doesn't undergo first pass metabolism through the liver. I also think it must enter the body quite slowly via dermal absorbtion, so you don't get sudden, large changes in P levels from the cream. Those two differences probably explain why the effects are different.
Quote
Feeling male or female vs having personality traits are that more feminine vs masculine is not the same. Many transgender women and men were not exposed to DES or progestins in the womb.
DES was used in somewhere in the region of 10 million pregnancies worldwide. I haven't found any statistics for hydroxyprogesterone caproate use, but it is a widely prescribed drug and it's been in use for longer than DES was, so I'd imagine even more people have been exposed to it by now than were exposed to DES. Whether the millions of people who've had these prenatal hormone exposures are the same millions of people who are transgender is an open question to which I don't think anyone knows the answer. Hardly anyone knows what drugs they were exposed to before birth, and as an adult, it's usually impossible to find out. Medical records no longer exist, and the mothers given these drugs were often never told what they were being given. The situation with DES is actually better than it is with other hormones, because there was a big cancer scare associated with it in the 1980s, and many women who'd been given it found out because of that.
I should add that any cause of intersex can also make people trans, because they're caused by the same thing - abnormal hormone levels during your prenatal development The difference is that with intersex, the abnormal hormone situation occurred during (or included) the first trimester, which is the critical time for genital development. Hence the physical appearance of the genitals is affected. With transgender, that person had hormone levels within range for their genetic sex during the first trimester (and so their genitals were unaffected), but then their hormones went out of range later on in their prenatal development. Since the main thing still ongoing after the end of the first trimester as far as development is concerned is brain development, the effects of those abnormal hormone levels are mainly seen in the brain. There's a fair bit of overlap between the two though, for instance many intersex people have a nonbinary gender identity, and many transgender people have endocrine disorders and other symptoms commonly associated with intersex conditions.
Quote
I don't believe hydroxyprogesterone caproate to be that different from progesterone and consider it safe enough. So, I don't see a problem using it for preventing abortion, maintaining pregnancy and preventing pre-term birth. Only this progestogen, bio-identical progesterone and estradiol are prescribed. I see no problem there. What else?
Most steroid esters are "prodrugs": they aren't active as hormones themselves, but instead act as a prodrug for the hormone they're made from, which is released when the ester bond is cleaved. Basically they act as a slow release form of the hormone. However, that's not the case for hydroxyprogesterone caproate. The hydroxyprogesterone caproate molecule itself is capable of activating progesterone receptors, and its ester bond is so stable that most of the molecules in a dose never cleave, but are instead eventually broken down intact in the liver. It's not a slow release form of 17-hydroxyprogesterone, it's a bona fide progestin, with a pharmacology similar to other progestins (except that unlike most other progestins, it doesn't cross react with androgen receptors).
One property of progestins is that they're quite good at suppressing testosterone production in adult men, and therefore it's not unreasonable to think that they could also suppress testosterone production in unborn babies. If they do, then using hydroxyprogesterone caproate (or any other progestin) during pregnancy is a recipe for disaster as far as males are concerned, since it'll cause any development that takes place during the time it's being administered to occur as female instead of male. Considering that this is exactly what appears to have happened with DES, on quite a large scale and over several decades, without any of the medical staff administering the stuff realising what it was doing, this gives me no confidence that they're not continuing to do the same thing with progestin-based treatments.
Quote from: HughE on November 28, 2016, 06:42:55 PM
Because I use progesterone cream. You can buy it online without a prescription. It's marketed towards postmenopausal women, but that doesn't stop other people from using it. I used to use the regular strength stuff (which involves significantly less progesterone per dose than Prometrium tablets), but this year I started using a cream that contains 10 percent progesterone, and so the dose I'm now getting per day is similar to what a Prometrium capsule contains. The difference is that it's absorbed through the skin rather than the digestive tract, so it doesn't undergo first pass metabolism through the liver. I also think it must enter the body quite slowly via dermal absorbtion, so you don't get sudden, large changes in P levels from the cream. Those two differences probably explain why the effects are different.
But you mentioned pregnancy levels? How would you know if your levels weren't even tested? Progesterone transdermally is poorly transferred to the blood.
Menopause. 2013 Nov;20(11):1169-75.The serum levels of progesterone were, on average, with cream and gel (doses comparable to oral),
0.5 ng/ml (Cmax of 0.6 ng/ml) and 0.35 ng/ml (Cmax of 0.4 ng/ml), respectively, during a 24 hour period.
On comparable dose with oral progesterone, in another study, Cmax was found to be 17.3 ng/ml and average levels to be 4.33 ng/ml for the first 10 hours.
CLIMACTERIC 2005;8(Suppl 1):3–63"The daily administration of a cream containing (...) progesterone on an area of 100 cm2 of the forearm of postmenopausal women resulted in a small rise in the serum progesterone levels. On the first day, the application of either (...) once daily or (...) twice daily caused only a negligible increase, but, on day 42, the progesterone concentrations reached a mean value of about 1 ng/ml(...). The efficacy of transdermally administered progesterone is contested. In a study with postmenopausal women, the daily application of a cream containing (...) progesterone on the skin increased the serum levels of progesterone only slightly to 0.1–0.3 ng/ml."
Levels of progesterone in pregnancy can go as high as 300 ng/ml. My levels are 13-20 ng/ml 12 hours after dose.
QuoteHardly anyone knows what drugs they were exposed to before birth, and as an adult, it's usually impossible to find out.
Ask your mother, if possible. My mom confirmed to taking neither of these during her pregnancy. I'm certainly not alone, there are many like me.
QuoteMedical records no longer exist, and the mothers given these drugs were often never told what they were being given. The situation with DES is actually better than it is with other hormones, because there was a big cancer scare associated with it in the 1980s, and many women who'd been given it found out because of that.
In general, mothers are quite aware.
QuoteWith transgender, that person had hormone levels within range for their genetic sex during the first trimester (and so their genitals were unaffected), but then their hormones went out of range later on in their prenatal development. Since the main thing still ongoing after the end of the first trimester as far as development is concerned is brain development, the effects of those abnormal hormone levels are mainly seen in the brain.
As far as brain being feminized due to abnormal levels of hormones, this is only a theory. Not proven with certainty.
QuoteOne property of progestins is that they're quite good at suppressing testosterone production in adult men, and therefore it's not unreasonable to think that they could also suppress testosterone production in unborn babies. If they do, then using hydroxyprogesterone caproate (or any other progestin) during pregnancy is a recipe for disaster as far as males are concerned, since it'll cause any development that takes place during the time it's being administered to occur as female instead of male. Considering that this is exactly what appears to have happened with DES, on quite a large scale and over several decades, without any of the medical staff administering the stuff realising what it was doing, this gives me no confidence that they're not continuing to do the same thing with progestin-based treatments.
Are there actual studies showing an association between the use of hydroxyprogesterone caproate and transsexualism and/or intersex conditions? If not, this is pure speculation. Time will tell.
Quote from: KayXo on November 29, 2016, 09:46:15 AM
But you mentioned pregnancy levels? How would you know if your levels weren't even tested? Progesterone transdermally is poorly transferred to the blood.
Synthetics were quickly abandoned for men's HRT, but until very recently they were the mainstay of women's HRT (I guess because women didn't complain as much about the horrible side effects they were experiencing). You'd think it'd be common sense that, if you're going to replace someone's hormones, you'd use hormones that are chemically as close as possible to the ones that occur naturally in the human body. However, common sense often doesn't feature very prominently in medicine, and other considerations such as pharmaceutical industry profit margins and the convenience of pills versus injections seem to be far more important. The result is that doctors have needlessly maimed and killed loads of women over the last several decades with non bioidentical hormones such as Premarin, Provera, DES and ethinylestradiol. They're not going to admit that of course!
The use of bioidentical hormones for women's HRT actually started with the alternative medicine movement, and because of that, mainstream medicine seems to be very hostile to it even now. At least, that's the impression I've gained. For instance, if you read this Wikipedia article, it has a very deprecating tone towards bioidentical hormones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioidentical_hormone_replacement_therapy
In other words, the whole thing of using bioidentical hormones for women's HRT is highly politicized, and whenever that happens, science goes straight out the window and you get all sorts of studies that have been slanted to produce results that tie in with whichever side the author's ideology happens to lie on. Since progesterone cream is probably the single most widely used form of bioidentical HRT, naturally there are going to be a lot of negative studies about it coming from the medical establishment.
What I can tell you from my own experience is that it does have an effect, although the effects are a lot more subtle than the effects you get from estrogen containing creams (estriol/estradiol).
Quote
Ask your mother, if possible. My mom confirmed to taking neither of these during her pregnancy. I'm certainly not alone, there are many like me.
In general, mothers are quite aware.
Not possible in my case unfortunately. However, you're wrong about mothers being aware of what medicines they were given during pregnancy. Their recollection of it is so bad that you can't do science based on what the mother remembers, you have to have access to the medical records. This is something Dr June Reinisch mentions in her research, and in this interview:
http://www.germlineexposures.org/reinisch-qa.html
QuoteWhen I interviewed these women after the pregnancy, they didn't know what they took—sometimes they didn't remember that they took anything. But I had read their records and I knew what the doctor gave them. I would say, for example, "Don't you remember taking little red pills every day?" "No." They were so focused on being pregnant, maintaining their pregnancy, having the baby, that they had forgotten all about it, including even when they received regular hormone injections. My studies included women who had been taking injections twice a week all the way through their pregnancy. Often they too had no remembrance of it whatsoever.
You should read that interview, and Dr Reinisch's 1977 paper that's linked within it. It isn't just theory that synthetic estrogens and progestins can disrupt both physical sexual development and sexual development of the brain in human babies, it's well established science that has been known about for a long time, but doesn't get talked about very much.