I've been reading a lot and been feeling bad lately. I just joined here for this.
some time ago I decided in 4 or 5 years when I live alone I'll give hrt a try and then thing about what happens in the future (I'm 99% sure I won't pass). but during this time. I'm starting to feel bad about it.
I mean I don't see anybody talking about it logically. To be it sounds like people are divided into two groups that hate each other and fight each other like children, the ones who "support" and the one's who are "against" it. and I'm stuck here confused in between.
I mean I've read some stuff on the internet and they make sense, I mean I'm still a man, no matter what I do. I'm just lying to myself. my chromosomes and everything are the same... I don't see why gender should even matter to anyone, I mean i can do what I want despite my gender why should it even matter to me? I can still study science which is to be honest on the top list of the list about what's important to me in life. second is being nice and third one is marrying someone I would love for the rest of my life (the thing that scares me most. I could maybe live as a man as long as I'm busy thinking, But I could never imagine being married as a man. I mean even having sexual intercourse... I'm not a fan of it... but definitely can't do it as a man. that's just disgusting...)
instead of wasting money on hrt and wasting my time, I could work on making world a better place in a small lifespan I have. instead I have to waste it on these unimportant things. yet at the same time.. I can't get myself to forget or deal with it in anyway! I've never ever cared about what I am or anything like this. or basically never tried to "see how I feel". I've always lived it without caring. but now... I feel like maybe my depression is playing with me and making an irrational judgement. I mean I don't even know what I want. for some reason I'm constantly trying to find something wrong with transitioning. to be honest. I'm not religious or anything. but I constantly feel like if this is "wrong". and nothing will change with hrt. I'll just be lying to myself. I feel like i've fallen for something stupid on the internet. like bigfoot or lochness monster. earth being flat or whatever...
Honestly at this point after too much thinking I don't even know what I want or what is even wrong. it's like a mess
inside my brain at this moment :( can anyone help :? I just feel like if anyone like Einstein or any smart person or a scientist would tell me it's OK I would feel better :S
I wonder if interaction with someone trained and with experience in helping people sort through these kinds of issues might be a worthwhile option? Not to diminish your situation, but I am sure you are not the first to have to sort through the confusion, and maybe there is a therapist or counselor that could help you make sense of it all.
I'm sure I'm not the only one, sadly I can't wait 5 years :(
I wish I could just accept it without thinking about it. but I can't
specially considering that there are not much science backing this up :(
Undoubtedly you have already discovered that there a lot of kind and caring people here who really do want the best for you, but we are not a substitute for a qualified professional. I would urge you to give serious consideration to the advice Sophie presented and seek professional help for the issues you shared. Given the complexity of the issues you raised, you need expert advice with a professional therapist.
I guess I'll wait the 5 years then..... for a therapist... and even it's not for sure then... I'll also get even more ugly and old :(
Quote from: TheWalkingSadness on November 15, 2016, 08:23:28 AM
(I'm 99% sure I won't pass)
i dont seem to understand how to post a link proper and dont want to post the video copy and paste this. (youtube.com/watch?v=i6HaVYg6kB4)
Quote from: TheWalkingSadness on November 15, 2016, 09:33:33 AM
I guess I'll wait the 5 years then..... for a therapist...
Why would you wait for five years to see a therapist? Now is when you need the help, to figure out what you want.
definitely this. You need to work through things and sort through them to know really what you need and want to do. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: KathyLauren on November 15, 2016, 10:42:32 AM
Why would you wait for five years to see a therapist? Now is when you need the help, to figure out what you want.
Wow, I think I know how you feel. I was so uncertain just a little under two years ago.
I too was curious about the 5 years before seeing a therapist. I think you have a good number of things you may have to work through before anyone would suggest HRT at this point. I think they are so important to help you work your way through your thoughts and feelings. I did so much waffling when I first started...So why not start seeing a therapist.
For that matter, how attached are you to your facial hair? If you think you will head in some transition direction and don't want facial hair why not start getting rid of that too? In 2 years, you should be close to being cleared of facial hair.
One of the other members here often suggests that unsure people check out a few of the videos here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ_Esfxavow
I also want to share some links with you. They are mostly welcome information and the rules that govern the site. If you have not had a chance to look through them, please take a moment to:
Things that you should read
- Site Terms of Service and rules to live by (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
- Standard Terms and Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)
- Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
- Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)
- News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)
- Photo, avatars, and signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)
Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.
With warmth,
Joanna
Quote from: Joanna50 on November 15, 2016, 11:25:47 AM
Wow, I think I know how you feel. I was so uncertain just a little under two years ago.
I too was curious about the 5 years before seeing a therapist. I think you have a good number of things you may have to work through before anyone would suggest HRT at this point. I think they are so important to help you work your way through your thoughts and feelings. I did so much waffling when I first started...So why not start seeing a therapist.
For that matter, how attached are you to your facial hair? If you think you will head in some transition direction and don't want facial hair why not start getting rid of that too? In 2 years, you should be close to being cleared of facial hair.
One of the other members here often suggests that unsure people check out a few of the videos here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ_Esfxavow
I also want to share some links with you. They are mostly welcome information and the rules that govern the site. If you have not had a chance to look through them, please take a moment to:
Things that you should read
- Site Terms of Service and rules to live by (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
- Standard Terms and Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)
- Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
- Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)
- News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)
- Photo, avatars, and signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)
Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.
With warmth,
Joanna
Thanks a lot for your help. I have to admit that I feel more denial than anything.
Oh and I hate any kind of hair that's not on my head :) and eyebrows of course! Faxial hair bring my worst enemy !!!
Quote from: KathyLauren on November 15, 2016, 10:42:32 AM
Why would you wait for five years to see a therapist? Now is when you need the help, to figure out what you want.
my family already makes a lot of fun of me for being feminine. Imagine if I said I was transgender.... they would probably go insane. They're not the nicest and wisest either.
I have to wait until I live alone or get out of my country. If things somehow do workout I'll be able to visit a therapist in a year
Quote from: TheWalkingSadness on November 15, 2016, 12:21:50 PM
my family already makes a lot of fun of me for being feminine. Imagine if I said I was transgender.... they would probably go insane. They're not the nicest and wisest either.
I have to wait until I live alone or get out of my country. If things somehow do workout I'll be able to visit a therapist in a year
Just curious what country are you from?
If you wish to wait 5 years, you may want to consider anti-androgens while you're waiting. They will prevent your features from getting more masculine but not make you feminine. After 5 years on anti-androgens you'll be in great shape to start taking estrogen.
Good luck,
Paige :)
Quote from: Paige on November 15, 2016, 01:05:35 PM
Just curious what country are you from?
If you wish to wait 5 years, you may want to consider anti-androgens while you're waiting. They will prevent your features from getting more masculine but not make you feminine. After 5 years on anti-androgens you'll be in great shape to start taking estrogen.
Good luck,
Paige :)
won't I need medical permission? I need to talk to my father then....
and I'm sorry but I rather not mention my country for safety reasons. I mean why on earth would anyone read this website?? but I still fear it...
EDIT: Evil thought, maybe I can buy some finasteride as an excuse for my hair loss? it is an anti-androgen I guess...?
Thanks Joanna50 for that video, I had not seen it!
It sounds like you are still living at home which implies you may be in school. Some schools have counselors that may be able to help.
Possibly ask your parents for a physical, some excuse like it's required for after school activities. Talk to the doctor then.
Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk
Quote from: TheWalkingSadness on November 15, 2016, 01:22:51 PM
won't I need medical permission? I need to talk to my father then....
and I'm sorry but I rather not mention my country for safety reasons. I mean why on earth would anyone read this website?? but I still fear it...
EDIT: Evil thought, maybe I can buy some finasteride as an excuse for my hair loss? it is an anti-androgen I guess...?
Yes you would need a doctor prescription for anti-androgens. Finasteride is not a true anti-androgen, it blocks about 70% of DHT production but does not block testosterone like a true anti-androgen.
I'm not sure how old you are. If you're still in puperty blocking DHT might have some advantages. Not sure.
Either way. Before embarking down any of these paths you should really talk to a therapist. If you can't do it locally, you might want to try an online gender therapist.
Take care,
Paige :)
I think we are trying to understand your situation better to perhaps offer better advice. Please do know that your confusion is normal. I think many of us have had to sort through confusion of our own. Also please know that it gets better as you learn more about transgender issues, and that there is good help and advice to make the issues something you can manage. You are not alone.
If you're interested in the medical/clinical side of this, I found this to be quite informative:
http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm
She has a lot of other good information, too:
http://www.avitale.com/Essaylist.htm
http://www.avitale.com/TNotelist.htm
Quote from: TheWalkingSadness on November 15, 2016, 08:23:28 AMI just feel like if [...] a scientist would tell me it's OK I would feel better :S
Well, I have a PhD in chemistry, so I guess that makes me a scientist...
It's ok :)
What I've learned from the tons of research I've been doing over the last few months is that the current understanding of ->-bleeped-<- stems from our fetal development. Our bodies and minds start out female when they begin to develop, and eventually our XX/XY chromosomes cause our genitals to form. And that's
all they determine.
After the testes or ovaries develop, they flood our prenatal bodies with testosterone or estrogen, respectively. This is responsible for everything else -- breasts, bone structure, body hair, etc; all of it comes form the hormones. For trans* people, something doesn't work out quite as planned -- the hormones aren't quite right, and parts of us, notably our brains, are affected. As our brains develop, the hormonal environment of the fetus plays a role in that. Women's brains function differently than men's, and have distinguishing characteristics. In the first paper I linked above, Dr. Vitale describes (and provides references to) clinic research where MTF transsexuals' brains were examined post-mortem, and found to have female, not male, physical characteristics. There are later studies where researchers were able to produce mice with transgender traits -- their brain structures showed characteristics of one sex, while they had the other sex's genitals.
At the end of the day, a transgendered individual's brain is not aligned to that of their sex, whether it's all the way to the other side (transsexual) or somewhere in between male and female (non-binary/genderfluid/etc). Psychologically this causes a lot of problems, which most people here know all too well. But physically, it's a rather tidy problem: The brain is simply working with a different testosterone/estrogen ratio than it expected. This is why HRT often relieves the dysphoria and improves our lives -- it shifts our brain chemistry to where it ought to be for proper function.
So, it's ok to feel this way. It's a legitimate medical issue and, despite how our cultures may judge us, there's nothing wrong about it.
I agree with the others -- try to find a way to talk to someone about it. Maybe a school counselor? Maybe there's a local LGBT safe-spot nearby where you could find someone to talk with? Try to find, and contact, a gender therapist in your area and explain your financial/family/etc situation. They may know of an option that might work (for instance, my therapist's office teams up with local student interns from a nearby university to offer gender therapy for as little as $10 / session).
Best of luck, and don't be afraid to talk with us here. We understand what you're feeling and can help.
Thank you EyesOpen, I am finding these links to be very informative!
Quote from: TheWalkingSadness on November 15, 2016, 08:23:28 AM
I've been reading a lot and been feeling bad lately. I just joined here for this.
some time ago I decided in 4 or 5 years when I live alone I'll give hrt a try and then thing about what happens in the future (I'm 99% sure I won't pass). but during this time. I'm starting to feel bad about it.
I mean I don't see anybody talking about it logically. To be it sounds like people are divided into two groups that hate each other and fight each other like children, the ones who "support" and the one's who are "against" it. and I'm stuck here confused in between.
I mean I've read some stuff on the internet and they make sense, I mean I'm still a man, no matter what I do. I'm just lying to myself. my chromosomes and everything are the same... I don't see why gender should even matter to anyone, I mean i can do what I want despite my gender why should it even matter to me? I can still study science which is to be honest on the top list of the list about what's important to me in life. second is being nice and third one is marrying someone I would love for the rest of my life (the thing that scares me most. I could maybe live as a man as long as I'm busy thinking, But I could never imagine being married as a man. I mean even having sexual intercourse... I'm not a fan of it... but definitely can't do it as a man. that's just disgusting...)
instead of wasting money on hrt and wasting my time, I could work on making world a better place in a small lifespan I have. instead I have to waste it on these unimportant things. yet at the same time.. I can't get myself to forget or deal with it in anyway! I've never ever cared about what I am or anything like this. or basically never tried to "see how I feel". I've always lived it without caring. but now... I feel like maybe my depression is playing with me and making an irrational judgement. I mean I don't even know what I want. for some reason I'm constantly trying to find something wrong with transitioning. to be honest. I'm not religious or anything. but I constantly feel like if this is "wrong". and nothing will change with hrt. I'll just be lying to myself. I feel like i've fallen for something stupid on the internet. like bigfoot or lochness monster. earth being flat or whatever...
Honestly at this point after too much thinking I don't even know what I want or what is even wrong. it's like a mess
inside my brain at this moment :( can anyone help :? I just feel like if anyone like Einstein or any smart person or a scientist would tell me it's OK I would feel better :S
If you have these kind of doubts, you're not ready. This alternative is for people who are backed against a wall. If there is another alternative, explore it. The only win here is your personal sanity. If that's not at stake, you're playing games. And If your on hormones and these are your true feelings, you're
playing Russian Roulette.
Quote from: TheWalkingSadness on November 15, 2016, 08:23:28 AMI mean I've read some stuff on the internet and they make sense, I mean I'm still a man, no matter what I do. I'm just lying to myself. my chromosomes and everything are the same... I don't see why gender should even matter to anyone, I mean i can do what I want despite my gender why should it even matter to me?
Identity is rooted in your interiority, in your subjectivity. To think it's based on external "objective" factors is a mistake. This might be why you're so keen on scientific methods -- because it's a way to avoid dealing with your interiority, of putting that into a box and locked away.
Well, interiority can't be locked up, and any dysphoria you have about your embodiment and social role will inevitably come out. Our emotions precede conscious thought (Antonio Damasio,
The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness, Harcourt, 1999) and furthermore, our entire process of determining what is "good" or "bad" is actually rooted in our specific embodiment; these values come from feelings, not reason.
You have no choice in your feelings.
Furthermore, what you "are" is kind of a myth -- yes, there are many different criteria by which you may be categorized, even by yourself, but categories themselves are not bound by set logic, which is certainly unfortunate for certain philosophers (George Lakoff,
Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things: What Categories Reveal About the Mind, University of Chicago Press, 1987). Categories do not exist ontologically; they are simply ways for the human brain to parse out the data of the world around us.
So maybe,
if this is true of your interiority, you're still a woman, no matter what you do. And any attempt to avoid that fundamental truth is simply lying to yourself.
Quoteinstead of wasting money on hrt and wasting my time, I could work on...
Attending to the truth of yourself is not a waste of time. Because you are inherently valuable. Which is the very same reason we "do science" -- to create better experiences for people, because people are inherently valuable.
Why do people take caffeine? To make themselves feel like they have more energy than they actually do. It's not lying, it's self-modification. The same with taking pain-killers -- they don't treat the underlying cause, but they do make the experience so much better. But HRT is much more powerful than that -- not only can it change your psychology (in my experience it primarily opened me up to my feelings) but it produces physiological changes in your body as well. And those changes are no lie.
Here's how you ascertain the truth about yourself: How do you feel about having a male body, and being perceived by everyone around you as male? Compare that to how you feel about having a female body, and being perceived by everyone around you as female. If one makes you feel dysphoric (a combination of sad, mad, scared, and/or disgust) and the other makes feel good or at least relieved, there's your answer.
Making yourself happy
is making the world a better place. And like you say, you can still do all the other things in the world that you want... but wouldn't it be
better if you were doing those things as your true self?
Quote from: Paige on November 15, 2016, 01:05:35 PM
Just curious what country are you from?
If you wish to wait 5 years, you may want to consider anti-androgens while you're waiting. They will prevent your features from getting more masculine but not make you feminine. After 5 years on anti-androgens you'll be in great shape to start taking estrogen.
Good luck,
Paige :)
I sadly live in Iran :( It's not a not place to live at all... specially for a person like me which in terms of culture or anything is not like them at all.
Quote from: Denise on November 15, 2016, 01:54:51 PM
It sounds like you are still living at home which implies you may be in school. Some schools have counselors that may be able to help.
Possibly ask your parents for a physical, some excuse like it's required for after school activities. Talk to the doctor then.
Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk
Oh dear... our school doesn't even have a proper bathroom. schools are basically prison in my country.
I'll go to college (I'm 17) after my last exam which is in 8 months. but I'm way behind schedule. I'm sure I'll fail and not have a chance at living here. I'll then finally get rid of that torture house.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on November 16, 2016, 08:17:34 AM
Identity is rooted in your interiority, in your subjectivity. To think it's based on external "objective" factors is a mistake. This might be why you're so keen on scientific methods -- because it's a way to avoid dealing with your interiority, of putting that into a box and locked away.
Well, interiority can't be locked up, and any dysphoria you have about your embodiment and social role will inevitably come out. Our emotions precede conscious thought (Antonio Damasio, The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness, Harcourt, 1999) and furthermore, our entire process of determining what is "good" or "bad" is actually rooted in our specific embodiment; these values come from feelings, not reason.
You have no choice in your feelings.
Furthermore, what you "are" is kind of a myth -- yes, there are many different criteria by which you may be categorized, even by yourself, but categories themselves are not bound by set logic, which is certainly unfortunate for certain philosophers (George Lakoff, Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things: What Categories Reveal About the Mind, University of Chicago Press, 1987). Categories do not exist ontologically; they are simply ways for the human brain to parse out the data of the world around us.
So maybe, if this is true of your interiority, you're still a woman, no matter what you do. And any attempt to avoid that fundamental truth is simply lying to yourself.
Attending to the truth of yourself is not a waste of time. Because you are inherently valuable. Which is the very same reason we "do science" -- to create better experiences for people, because people are inherently valuable.
Why do people take caffeine? To make themselves feel like they have more energy than they actually do. It's not lying, it's self-modification. The same with taking pain-killers -- they don't treat the underlying cause, but they do make the experience so much better. But HRT is much more powerful than that -- not only can it change your psychology (in my experience it primarily opened me up to my feelings) but it produces physiological changes in your body as well. And those changes are no lie.
Here's how you ascertain the truth about yourself: How do you feel about having a male body, and being perceived by everyone around you as male? Compare that to how you feel about having a female body, and being perceived by everyone around you as female. If one makes you feel dysphoric (a combination of sad, mad, scared, and/or disgust) and the other makes feel good or at least relieved, there's your answer.
Making yourself happy is making the world a better place. And like you say, you can still do all the other things in the world that you want... but wouldn't it be better if you were doing those things as your true self?
That was really nice... :) thanks!
Quote from: Sophia Sage on November 16, 2016, 08:17:34 AM
Here's how you ascertain the truth about yourself: How do you feel about having a male body, and being perceived by everyone around you as male? Compare that to how you feel about having a female body, and being perceived by everyone around you as female. If one makes you feel dysphoric (a combination of sad, mad, scared, and/or disgust) and the other makes feel good or at least relieved, there's your answer.
What if like in my case i have had quite an easy time being male my whole life, but only now am realizing the struggle that i have had since puberty? I really don't like myself as a male, and being any part female makes me feel great especially at home, but its super scary to think that people that i have known for decades may not accept my change, also learning all this makeup stuff and learning to dress for my body type is no easy task, hats off to all you ladies that have made the change and are successful.
Quote from: Annarko on November 16, 2016, 09:15:19 AMWhat if like in my case i have had quite an easy time being male my whole life, but only now am realizing the struggle that i have had since puberty? I really don't like myself as a male, and being any part female makes me feel great especially at home, but its super scary to think that people that i have known for decades may not accept my change, also learning all this makeup stuff and learning to dress for my body type is no easy task, hats off to all you ladies that have made the change and are successful.
First, the past no longer exists. Only the present exists. What you're experiencing
now is what matters.
Like you, I wasn't actively dysphoric growing up. I was very good at repressing my true self, being very responsive to the social cues and praise for behaving "appropriately." But that didn't matter once the genie (Jeannie?) got out of the bottle. And yeah, it was scary as all get out! I was having panic attacks about what doing this meant. But I had to do it. I had to, or I would have been dead by now.
No, it's not easy. Makeup and clothes, that was very stressful, but in comparison to voice work? To electrolysis? At least makeup and clothes are
fun. Or can be... it depends, because the wrong clothes can certainly stir up dysphoria. It takes practice and eventually a keen eye to discern what's going to work and what isn't. (For me, it's V-neck and U-neck tops, boot-cut slacks, and full skirts that work best on my frame.)
As to other people, we can't control their reactions. We can only be true to ourselves. Which for me meant maintaining my boundaries. Anyone who wasn't going to gender me properly was cut out of my life -- and once my parents saw I was serious about that, they quickly whipped themselves into shape. I was extremely lucky in this respect. Practically speaking, then, the only people I kept in my life were my immediate family. So it goes. But I realized that being in an unhealthy relationship was worse than the pain of letting those people go.
The way I see it, if you want to go all the way, you have to put everything on the table, including yourself.
First, the video posted above on gender dysphoria was spot on for me, and I was as confused as you years ago. Some believe (and there's other theories) that a transgender woman starts as a male embryo, and is bathed in female hormones at a certain stage of pregnancy, effectively creating a female baby with male genitals and hence, hormones. So there is a disconnect between what the brain is expecting and what the testicles are producing. Now you throw on all the cultural/social overlays and the confusion only grows. Therapy can help unpeel the onion, so to speak, and hormones will correct the chemical imbalance. Both may be necessary, but start with therapy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Whenever I start slipping into one of my "Why even bother?", "This is crazy, why am I doing what I am?", "I think I got this beat now, this time for sure", etc. moods; my therapist simply says "Everyone deserves to have joy and happiness in their life, even you"
Quote from: TheWalkingSadness on November 16, 2016, 08:49:51 AM
I sadly live in Iran :(
According to the BBC Iran is actually more tolerant to transsexuals who want to fully transition to female, i.e., live full time as a woman, start HRT and have Gender Confirming Surgery (GCS) than many other moslem countries. The Government of Iran will pay the costs of all of this.
If you want to remain a pre-op transsexual, however, then that is not allowed. Also, homosexuality is illegal. So it's not very progressive as pertains to the LGBTQ community as a whole.
Quote from: Jane Emily on November 16, 2016, 10:19:51 PM
According to the BBC Iran is actually more tolerant to transsexuals who want to fully transition to female, i.e., live full time as a woman, start HRT and have Gender Confirming Surgery (GCS) than many other moslem countries. The Government of Iran will pay the costs of all of this.
If you want to remain a pre-op transsexual, however, then that is not allowed. Also, homosexuality is illegal. So it's not very progressive as pertains to the LGBTQ community as a whole.
Funny I googled it myself. That sounds true! It's a bit shocking..... But the main problem are the people... I would do it of I lived alone. Maybe in a year I'll secretly visit a therapist. But I'm not sure if I can find one in my city! And all the stigma and the Shame is breathtaking.
And... I have to say. I'm not interested in men at all. It's not about well... Intercourse! But doing anything from having children (Which I would love to have someday) and basically living together for the rest of my life. I can't imagine the person to be man.
But I can always pretend ^_^
And I just remembered one of my other worried. I'm worried if I transition I would never marry anyone :(
I mean I can't imagine being the men in a relationship. But if I do it I would end up all alone!