Well, I didn't like Donald Trump, but Hillary Clinton scared me too. I believe, in fact, that this election has made me scared of both sides. I know that the protests were to be expected after the winner was announced, but their riots became too much to bear. For the other side, on this forum I seen some very intimidating news about how bad things will happen to us. I kind of wonder if people are over-reacting to the announced victory. But for this support forum, I have your sympathy.
I just feel tangled with thoughts right now. I know my parents get angry (beyond description) when they see so many people bashing on Trump and thinking he's an idiot. It intimidates me sometimes, too. But, I'd hate to strongly disapprove of my parents and criticize them as Trump-supporting idiots. Let alone come out to them about something big and life-changing, they will only get very angry, my dad especially is very passionate about this stuff.
At this point, all we can really do is keep an eye on them, and be prepared to call attention to anything damaging that might be attempted.
In the USA that is our First Amendment right and duty, part of how our government works. We will need to communicate with our elected representatives and their appointees to make sure they hear us and understand the direction we can give them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think he was the best choice of the two. If either could do anything to reduce spending and control the debt he would have the best chance. Also, I believe that he will be fair with equal standards for everybody. So far he is showing his desire of trying to unite all sides.
Remember we survived 8 years of a strictly one-sided liberal agenda with no effort to obtain cooperation from anybody who had different views. I am glad that we don't have to look forward to another 4 years of that.
There is no reason for the demonstrations and riots which have taken place.
The first president I recall was Dwight D. Eisenhower and there have been many after that. Some we felt would destroy the country and others we had great hopes for. Often neither turned out to be what we expected and there is something that protects the country and the people. Congress is not in the business of rubber stamping anything the president wants and even as far back as Washington, presidents have been complaining about congress. A secondary limitation is the supreme court that places another check on the president. Our government was designed to prevent the emotions of the people and the government from making drastic changes in the country. Yes, there have been times when the process doesn't work as well as it should but over time it tends to correct it's self.
I may be a bit of an optimist but I am unable to see where the future could be any worst that the past I lived through. If anything, I think the future has more possibilities than the past because the people expect it from our country. I recommend that you try to relax and allow some time to pass before you judge the new government. It could be far better than you think.
Quote from: redhot1 on November 22, 2016, 06:29:53 PM
I know my parents get angry (beyond description) when they see so many people bashing on Trump and thinking he's an idiot.
I voted for Hillary, and I despise Trump, but I don't think he's an idiot. Far from it. He's actually a genius. He knew exactly how to tap into the various chords of discontent in the country and use that to his advantage to get himself elected as President. With no previous political or military experience! Say what you want about him, but he's very, very smart in that sense.
But he's also a total narcissist. That may sound bad, but keep in mind Trump is 70 yrs old. He doesn't have much more time to cement his legacy. So I believe that will help keep him in check, as he will want his name and reputation to leave a lasting legacy long after he's passed.
The last point I'd like to make is that Trump is extremely unpredictable. His words have no weight. Already you can see he is backtracking on many of his campaign promises since winning the election. He flip-flops all the time. So it's really impossible to predict what a Trump presidency will look like. Maybe it will be good? Maybe it will be bad? Trump supporters, by voting for him, chose the "blow stuff up with dynamite" option when they voted for Trump. Who knows what will happen?
I voted for trump because I know the clintons background and knew a Hillary presidency would finish our country off and the Clinton foundation stood to gain billions in donations. I'm happy they lost and the American people won.
Rather than being scared, I recommend that you get prepared instead.
Trump isn't really a threat the the LGBT community, the tea party GOP is the problem that the LGBT community is going to be facing. If anything, hope that Trump make it through his term, because a Pence presidency is infinitely more terrifying.
Trump already lied: he said he would investigate Hillary, now he says he won't. Same with the climate deals.
This is Politics, right? I guess he got what he wanted: ultimate power, and winning. I don't think much will change.
It's important to remember most politicians will say what they need to in order to get elected and then what happens afterwords is often different than what they told us. Some of that difference is due to the powers that be such as the balance of power that are political system has with a system of checks and balances. The result is Trump may want to do something, but if Congress or the Supreme Court overrule or don't approve then there isn't much he can do. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: cheryl reeves on November 23, 2016, 07:48:52 AM
I voted for trump because I know the clintons background and knew a Hillary presidency would finish our country off and the Clinton foundation stood to gain billions in donations. I'm happy they lost and the American people won.
I totally support that position.
Quote from: 2cherry on November 23, 2016, 10:26:24 AM
Trump already lied: he said he would investigate Hillary, now he says he won't. Same with the climate deals.
This is Politics, right? I guess he got what he wanted: ultimate power, and winning. I don't think much will change.
Trump said he would not actively pursue it but would not stop the ongoing investigations on related issues. Given that and some of his other re-thinking, it appears that he is really concerned about uniting the country and moving forward on the most important issues.
WE OWE HIM THE OPPORTUNITY TO TRY.
Trump lied, Hillary lied. Big surprise. Both are politicians.
In other controversial and surprising news, the sun will rise in the morning!!!!!
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
I do not think Donald Trump is an idiot. But I do think he has way too much in common with some of history's more nefarious dictators for me to be comfortable with him. I don't compare him to Hitler, like some people. No, I think he has far, far more in common with a Philippine dictator, Ferdinand Marcos.
And I know from whence I speak. I was in the Philippines quite a few times after Marcos was deposed (by the People Power revolution in 1986) and I saw the aftermath of his rule with my own eyes.
Marcos came to power by being elected in a democracy that was closely modeled on our own --after all, the Philippines was an American colony from 1902 to 1947. He then abolished term limits, curtailed freedom of the press, made sure the media printed only what he wanted, and then used the threat of a shadowy communist insurgency in the Philippines, and the Vietnam War to abolish elections and declare martial law. And he mercilessly imprisoned and persecuted his political opponents. His regime was a nonstop orgy of cronyism, self dealing, and stealing from his own government. And of course all the members of his family grew rich and powerful as well. Various Marcos relatives and in laws are still in power in several parts of the Philippines.
We are already seeing the beginnings of this with the Trump regime, but on a global scale -- phone calls to the President of Argentina to restart the stalled Trump Tower project in Buenos Aires, attempts to reward a favored British politician to stop the wind farms that are spoiling the views of the Trump golf courses in Scotland, and Trump charging the government for housing secret service agents at Trump Tower and for rides on his airplane. And he is manipulating freedom of the press by refusing to communicate with media outlets he does not agree with, and refusing to allow them to cover his activity. And he has his children on his transition team, and has them running his businesses, and he has them sitting in on high level meetings with foreign heads of state, such as the Prime Minister of Japan. And although those meetings are supposed to be coordinated through the State Department, he is going around the State Department and contacting foreign leaders directly.
The result of twenty years of rule by Marcos? While the Philippine economy grew under his rule, it benefited only the wealthy. The rich got richer and fewer in number, the poor got poorer and more numerous, and the middle class disappeared. The Philippines went from an American style democracy to an oligarchy whose economy was controlled by the Twenty-One Families. And kidnap for ransom became a growth industry -- to the point that when my first wife had to go back there to visit family during his regime, she had to hire bodyguards to constantly shadow her.
No, Donald Trump is no idiot. He is very very clever. And very very narcissistic -- just like Ferdinand Marcos was.
Hey Redhot,
You must experience some very interesting political theatre at home? It is sooo easy to have political passions. Voting is so cherished a right that we do it in private ;)
The greater the level of political power the greater the distance from the average citizen. You and I are unlikely to have much impact, beyond our vote, on the direction of Washington DC. Rather than despair or feel powerless I suggest the old activist mantra and/or bumper sticker "Think Globally and Act Locally." We now have the ability to be well informed about any and everything with a little research. We can make the biggest positive difference in our own life and in our immediate community. Be the change you want to see and do it right at home. While we cannot dictate how others act we can chose to respond with thoughtful perceptions of our own. We can laugh at nonsense or get inflamed like a boil to what end?
I worried when McGovern was defeated and war raged in Vietnam (1972). I learned first hand that war destroys everything, including the truth. The guy who won was Nixon and under his reign we got the Clean Air and Water Act and more progressive legislation. And then he was impeached and forced from office, in humiliation, for his crimes. Stuff like that can happen again so i suggest the big picture is almost more entertainment than real consequence. The world still revolves around the Sun after all. ;D ;D ;D
As a child of the 60's and a former Draft Card holder I knew all to well what the consequences of an election meant. Likely the same for your parents. "Life and Death" lost a lot of meaning in the ensuing 50 years. Today's protesters are carrying on like it is the end of the world as we know it.
Philosophically speaking... the result of ANY election is the end of the world as we know it. It's not my first time. Hopefully not my last time.
The last eight years have resulted in more division in our country, more violence toward law enforcement, more racial unrest, more unemployment with fewer people seeking work, fewer jobs for people who seek them, more welfare, greater debt than we have ever experienced, a lack of world dominance, less ability to defend our country, more political corruption of power, etc., etc. then we have experienced in my lifetime and longer. The alternative would have only been a continuance of the same to a greater degree.
I now have more hope for the future. Pray for the success of our new leader and for our country as we have always done. Our system has built-in checks and balances which are effective if they are not abused as we have recently experienced.
Quote from: mac1 on November 24, 2016, 10:02:58 AM
The last eight years have resulted in more division in our country, more violence toward law enforcement, more racial unrest, more unemployment with fewer people seeking work, fewer jobs for people who seek them, more welfare, greater debt than we have ever experienced, a lack of world dominance, less ability to defend our country, more political corruption of power, etc., etc. then we have experienced in my lifetime and longer. The alternative would have only been a continuance of the same to a greater degree.
I now have more hope for the future. Pray for the success of our new leader and for our country as we have always done. Our system has built-in checks and balances which are effective if they are not abused as we have recently experienced.
So are we seeing less divisiveness lately? Do we recall what the unemployment rate and stock market were doing when President Obama took office? Have we actually checked on who created more debt? Do we really need to dominate the world? Yes, I imagine a lot of people are praying right now and they may be fearful of a perceived right white backlash perhaps?
We truly are one people and the proof is in the DNA of all living things on this planet. Let's focus on building community that shares and cares for one and all. And a happy thanksgiving too. ;D ;D ;D
Actually the division is a result of social inequalities rooted in prejudice, or for the white Americans that made up Trumps base feeling left behind. Minorities rioted because they're being targeted unfairly, and though people compare them to criminals it's important to remember Martin Luther King was a criminal and was arrested many times over. He even explained that rioting and looting isn't about the crap people take, it's a way to make people notice you, if you're too quiet and orderly than no one notices or cares. As far as Trumps base goes, many towns in the midwest are in shambles and have suffered the worst from the economic collapse in our country, as most care tends to go to inner cities on the coasts. They literally have been left behind and Trump tricked them into thinking he would make it all better.
Trump isn't going to heal the divisions in this country though, he only barely spoke out against hate crimes or the alt right after being pushed to by everyone and it was easier to get him to comment on Pence's treatment at Hamilton than it was getting him to acknowledge that anything was actually going on.
But if you think Trump "seems like an okay guy" look at the people he has elected to work with, the people he's dragged into office with him all have long histories legislating against us. People like Pence, Steve Bannon, Ted Cruz. Seriously just look at his transition team, anyone who said wait and see, he's literally already made choices that are bad for us. Do you really think these people aren't going to do what they spent their entire careers doing already? Even if Trump turned out to be an alright person, he wouldn't even have the power to stop them because Republicans control every branch of government right now, and the thought that they'll behave any differently now is founded upon nothing.
Quote from: Tessa James on November 24, 2016, 12:12:37 PM
So are we seeing less divisiveness lately? Do we recall what the unemployment rate and stock market were doing when President Obama took office? Have we actually checked on who created more debt? Do we really need to dominate the world? Yes, I imagine a lot of people are praying right now and they may be fearful of a perceived right white backlash perhaps?
We truly are one people and the proof is in the DNA of all living things on this planet. Let's focus on building community that shares and cares for one and all. And a happy thanksgiving too. ;D ;D ;D
Not sure who is really responsible for the debt but it has more than doubled in the past 8 years. The one thing of which I can be certain; you can't actually blame Bush.
The debt has been climbing steadily under both parties since Reagan was elected. Only one president since then has reduced the deficit and that was a Democrat, Bill Clinton.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: Deborah on November 24, 2016, 02:51:07 PM
The debt has been climbing steadily under both parties since Reagan was elected. Only one president since then has reduced the deficit and that was a Democrat, Bill Clinton.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
He never reduced the debt over either of his terms. He just had a year or two of balancing the budget.
Facts are an inconvenient thing in politics. He reduced the deficit and was showing a surplus before he left office. http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: Deborah on November 24, 2016, 03:49:31 PM
Facts are an inconvenient thing in politics. He reduced the deficit and was showing a surplus before he left office. http://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
OK, he had an annual surplus in each of 4 years instead of 2 years. However the the total National Debt increased over his 8 years in office. We were never debt free since before World War II.
http://www.truthfulpolitics.com/http:/truthfulpolitics.com/comments/u-s-federal-debt-by-president-political-party/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=friendly%2Blinks&utm_campaign=twitter%2Bfl%2Bplugin
I agree. He shrunk the deficit. Had it stayed as a surplus it would still have taken many years to eliminate the debt. At this point it is such that I doubt it can be paid off.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
The national debt is actually debt accumulated because of the federal reserve. Of they ever audited the Fed they would find the debt is make believe and the country is in fact richer then the Fed let's on.
Not to offend anyone posting, but high testosterone levels are starting to show in this thread.
Rather than argue, we, as a community, need to learn put aside our differences and work together. This divisive rhetoric will only serve to destroy us all.
FWIW...
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Quote from: AngieT on November 25, 2016, 03:40:01 AM
Not to offend anyone posting, but high testosterone levels are starting to show in this thread.
Rather than argue, we, as a community, need to learn put aside our differences and work together. This divisive rhetoric will only serve to destroy us all.
FWIW...
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
I can't agree more. The problem is liberals do not like conservatives and don't want to hear a conservatives side of the argument , it's either the liberal agenda or the hwy and that's it with liberals and that's why the transgender community fractured during this past election.
Actually Cheryl thank you I do hear and understand conservative viewpoints.
The trans and lgbt communities did not fracture over this election, lgbt as well as trans people voted for Hillary by margins in the 80-90% range.
I understand conservative viewpoints also. I used to rail against Obama right along with everyone else because he was a Muslim born in Kenya. I waited expectantly for the apocalypse and silently cheered the murder of abortion doctors.
The thing is that I eventually pulled my head out of my fourth point of contact and stopped living in a fantasy world driven by supernatural conspiracies.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Both sides need to do that. Need to hear and truly listen to the other side. If they could start doing that it would be better for all of us and especially for the trans community. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: cheryl reeves on November 25, 2016, 09:33:14 AM
I can't agree more. The problem is liberals do not like conservatives and don't want to hear a conservatives side of the argument , it's either the liberal agenda or the hwy and that's it with liberals and that's why the transgender community fractured during this past election.
Hi, folks. I know there are a lot of nervous people out there. There are folks who are frightened by what some individual politicians have been saying to get votes, in both major parties. There are folks concerned about policies that various politicians have promoted, from a huge range of viewpoints.
Take a deep breath, and pause to reflect.
The US government system has a number of checks and balances by design. Now, it often happens that the balance can be tilted a bit to one side or another, but again, by design, it is difficult to swing the system far out of balance. That's where we, the people come into play. When we see that imbalance developing, our job is to push back. That's why we have a First Amendment right to freedom of expression. When the politicians, executives, and judiciary all try to disappear up their own echo chamber, our job is to pull them back to reality.
Now, one faction in the recent election is claiming to have a 'mandate', in spite of having gotten just under half the popular vote. We, the people, know that a mandate like that won't stick in the face of opposition. It is the task of those opposed to any actions the 'mandate holders' take to let them know that not everyone is in agreement, that there is in fact disagreement with the 'consensus' within the echo chamber.
All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.
The real danger to us, all of us, is surrendering our rights, giving up our freedom of expression to an authoritarian government in exchange for a promise of security of some sort. That unbalances the system of government rather severely, and historically does not end well. We have seen this happen in many nations over the centuries.
Let's all learn from history, and avoid repeating those mistakes again. Don't surrender your freedom of expression, and do not demand that others surrender theirs, or remain silent in the face of authority.
Now, everybody go take a few deep breaths, and try to communicate. If you must debate, use facts and the truth, not truthiness and innuendo. It works better, and it does one no good to have their argument shown to include misinformation or falsehoods.
Disclaimer: I am a constitutional conservative social libertarian. For the USAians reading this, it is very likely that none of those words mean what you think they mean. ;)
Quote from: AngieT on November 25, 2016, 03:40:01 AM
Not to offend anyone posting, but high testosterone levels are starting to show in this thread.
Rather than argue, we, as a community, need to learn put aside our differences and work together. This divisive rhetoric will only serve to destroy us all.
FWIW...
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
I totally agree with you. As controversial as the Obama elections were we never had this. Apparently conservatives are more willing to accept what happens.
I have tried to reach out to liberal thinking people for years,problem is they only want their side heard and not listen to a conservative mindset,for when I hear their argument and then try to explain my side I'm labeled all kinds of nasty,i found with a lot of liberals there is no middle ground,it's their way or the hwy. I'm not heated up about anything. As for popular vote you take the cities out of the equation and Trump won in a landslide, this is because country folk got tired of being left behind,city thinking is not country thinking and the cities dictate the mandates for the state while rural people have no voice for they are shouted down by the majority with no middle ground. I live in rural Texas and have no problems for people here know I can handle myself. This is like my voice is always shouted down when I suggest that the T in lbgq separate and go it alone,i know we are a minority and the lgbq is the majority but sometimes there interest is not neccesarily our best interest but they need us for the votes. I'm always open to someone's opinion if they are open to mine.
Except for the effort, led by Trump, to have Obama impeached by creating a conspiracy that he was not a natural born citizen and was born in Kenya.
Or the constant drumbeat that he was not qualified to be president because he was a Muslim. Another false conspiracy theory.
Or that Obama founded ISIS to overthrow the USA.
Or that Hillary has a squad of mob assassins killing off political opponents.
Yeah, Republicans were just peachy.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Deborah,
You tend to overlook and forget about all of the vindictive and unfounded charges which Hillary made against Trump. Her campaign speeches were total "Bash Trump" with very little substance about the issues.
I is now beginning to look like Trump is looking forward to unifying the country.
The country is way past ideological unification. That ship sailed back in the early 1980s.
How America became a grudgeocracy
By Dan Zak
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/how-america-became-a-grudgeocracy/2016/11/25/c38f8832-adb6-11e6-a31b-4b6397e625d0_story.html
America, always an aspiring democracy, is now also a grudgeocracy.
The spirit of resentment is bipartisan, and it's everywhere.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: mac1 on November 22, 2016, 09:28:12 PM
I think he was the best choice of the two. If either could do anything to reduce spending and control the debt he would have the best chance. Also, I believe that he will be fair with equal standards for everybody. So far he is showing his desire of trying to unite all sides.
Remember we survived 8 years of a strictly one-sided liberal agenda with no effort to obtain cooperation from anybody who had different views. I am glad that we don't have to look forward to another 4 years of that.
There is no reason for the demonstrations and riots which have taken place.
We already had a President that controlled spending, and tried to unite the people, but we didn't trust him because he had black skin. Hillary while not the best choice at least has some experience. If your idea of controlling costs is reneging on your contracts, declaring bankruptcy and walking away scot free is your idea of someone capable of controlling spending, I've got swamp land for you to buy. Complete with everything that resides there. Snakes and alligators. Notice how all the spending will be controlled via social services. Planned Parenthood will be eliminated, PP has several transgender clinics around the country. Social Security, although not insolvent, is hurting because Cons steal from the trust fund,to the tune of $2 trillion for wars and tax breaks for the rich. They then put it on the credit card and use those stolen funds "off the books". Three Republicans have raised the debt to the level it is at. Obama had to spend money to avert the worst financial disaster in our life time and the other side didn't want a black guy to get the credit for bringing us all the way back. I beg to differ that demonstrations and riots, are not necessary When your Presidential candidate suggests that Hitler was right by proposing the round up of 15,000000 people, reconsidering internment camps. also known as "concentration camps". Taking your right to an alternate lifestyle away because of bigotry and hate and a mistranslation of the Bible. When your President elect talks of using nukes for conquest, that is a very scary prospect. Just the cabinet members he has named contain more KKK members than any other Congress since the 1860's. When you start pepper spraying and firing on Native Americans . When your President thinks about giving his children spots in the government. Lastly eliminating the one thing that makes America great, tolerance. Tolerance for immigrants. The motivating factor for people coming to America heeding to the words of Ms. Liberty. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free, I tell you giving up you first amendment rights to assemble and protest. If we ever give that up, we will be just like any other banana republic. With oppressed commoners and wealthy elites. I had an interesting conversation with Alyssia aka Just me here, from across the pond and I was impressed as she new more about our political position better than 90% of the other people I have been dialoguing with the last two years. Don't make your decision on her by looking at the youth in her face. This girl is
Brilliant. with a big bold B. Before Reagan I was firmly middle class and I felt like it. Now that I have lost my retirement account, about to lose my Medicare and Social Security when all they have to do is raise the rate on people making over the $150,000 limit to fix it. Oh yeah, Obama care. I am frankly happy for the effects of Obamacare. I get all my needs taken care of at $500 bucks a month. I pay $10 copays but nearly every other aspect of my visits to the doctor are prepaid so aside from my monthly rate I have had $800 n out of pocket costs including the cost of HRT, Therapy, Speech lessons, an orchiectomy. And if your need is decided by your therapist GRS as well. By not fighting,and since no one is listening from the other side we have to resort to other methods to be heard. Hillary has received over 2 million more votes than Trump. It is an out of date policy that keeps the majority from leading. The Electoral College was needed in olden times because of the horse travel time of the era. Today we know the results before you even leave the voting booth. Racism and Bigotry are never something you stand silent to. The last eight years have not been dominated by liberals because they have been taken out of the equation by Cons refusing to certify the current Presidents pick for the Supreme Court. Bad mouthing Obamacare and it was their idea created by the Heritage Foundation a rw think? tank. Taking away rights guaranteed by the Constitution such as "Promote the General Welfare" which by the way was the only thing mentioned twice in the Constitution, but it was never described because, well they thought we would understand. They did not foresee the perversion that is today's Republican Party.
No person suffering the effects of bigotry as is the Transgender community would ever, EVER. champion racism, bigotry and hate. Just the recent comment that transgender restrooms would be too expensive. We seem to have the money to let one guy shut down the government to the tune of $25 billion. $50 million to prove false claims against the Clintons. That $25 billion could have easily provided unisex restroom assistance. This future President is promising more rights to be taken away than any of his predecessors. In fact I can think of only one instance where nationally one right taken away. That was Prohibition. And it was overturned. Hillary in over 30 years of trying has not been convicted of a single crime. In fact Trump wants to stop the proceedings for Hillary's supposed indiscretions because "She has been through a lot already" That statement proves it was a "Trumped Up" charge to alter the election results. No, Trump will not take it to court because there is nothing to convict her of. I will never join the Nazi party.
Quote from: DawnOday on November 25, 2016, 12:45:06 PM
We already had a President that controlled spending, and tried to unite the people, but we didn't trust him because he had black skin. Hillary while not the best choice at least has some experience. ...................
Spending Control: More than doubling the national debt by around 10 trillion dollars over 8 years. That has never happened before in history.
Uniting the people: If Congress wont do it my way, I will do it by Executive Order.
Electoral College: It is still essential. Many states have still not fully certified 100% of their vote. Without it a dozen large states would control the elections leaving the 38 other states without a voice.
Responsibility: Blame Bush - Blame Trump
Experience: Obama only had 2 years as a junior senator. Hillary failed as Secretary of State and had very little business experience.
How does uniting the people by executive order work? That is simply authoritarian dictator language. And you wonder why people are concerned.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
How do you fill a hole? By placing a sheet of plywood over it and calling it good? Or do you start at the bottom and fill to the brim and beyond, then tamp it down. That is why Obama had to spend $6 trillion of that was from Bush's final year in office and we finally put 2 wars, tax relief for the wealthy, and a drug program the benifits Big Pharma and nobody else. I can remember several dinners Obama had planned to get Con respect and cooperation. The Cons refused to come. Mitch Mcconnel said off the bat the goal was to make Obama a one time President. Obama has a 53% rating. Congress hovering around 9% do you suppose that is because they are cooperative. I remember when Obama pledged Hope and Change and when he tried to pass legislation and failed due to obstruction everyone made fun of "Hope and Change". Cons held Obama hostage over a pipeline that would benefit two people in particular and would employ only 50 long term, Yes there were 40,000 temporary pipeline jobs but turned down employment to 2 million others for infrastructure jobs. Obama has shown quiet leadership. He will be remembered as the Jackie Robinson of our time. The ability to excel despite racism and bigotry. I just wish the man were allowed to put more people to work. But Congress controls the money. With that in mind. With Cons running Congress. Obama cannot appropriate funds for anything. So the deficit is not Obama's but the result of a obstructive Congress, who allowed Bush free reign with the budget then had a come to Jesus realization that hey we are in deep dodo. Obama as President can make all the EO's he wants that affect government workers. Regan used an EO to invade Grenada instead of sending the troops to Lebanon where 241 marines had just been killed. He recalled the 5th fleet and sent them to Grenada. Bush Sr. used EO's to invade Panama and liberate his Iran Contra drug money launderer Manuel Noriega. Nobody complained of the 23 American soldiers that lost their life in the process. Cons are complaining that the government is corrupt, yet they are the ones controlling the purse. Refusing to act on legislation. Won't sign a war authorization which by the Constitution they are required to do. Con's are so inept that their lack of ability only highlights why the government in their eyes is failing.
DawnOday
It takes a good leader to work with Congress to achieve mutual agreement for the good of the country. The Constitution does not give the president dictatorial authority to bypass Congress on such matters.
The Constitution also gives the president authority to deploy the military temporally, under certain conditions, without prior Congressional authority. Bill Clinton also exercised that authority.
It is too soon to know how Trump will handle these matters and if he will succeed for the benefit of the country.
As for racism; Obama would never have been elected if he had not received a large white vote.
Every president in the past was given the opportunity to see what he could accomplish (Obama had it twice). Trump now deserves our support and the same opportunity.
Quote from: Deborah on November 25, 2016, 01:44:34 PM
How does uniting the people by executive order work? That is simply authoritarian dictator language. And you wonder why people are concerned.
.......................
Look at the past 8 years for the answer to that question.
To quote a Republican President I did vote for, "There you go again!"
You all are forever carrying on about executive orders. The fact is that Obama issued fewer executive orders (249), than Bush II (291), Reagan (381), Nixon (346), or Eisenhower (486).
Source: https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/disposition.html
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: Deborah on November 25, 2016, 01:44:34 PM
How does uniting the people by executive order work? That is simply authoritarian dictator language. And you wonder why people are concerned.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
How does an EO work? The President is CEO of the United States. Like other executives he has control over his workers. Obama has created EOs to allow gays into the military of which he is CIC. He has created immigrations EO's just as GOP presidents signed 18 EO concerning immigration since Eisenhower. He has not used an EO to declare martial law. He has written EO's because of Congress obstruction. I even remember Obama having dinners to which Cons were invited but turned down the invites. But he needed to fill out his administrations so he installed department heads because Congress obstructed. Congress was so against Obama accomplishing anything the kept two people on hand during the recess so Obama could make no appointments. And for a Con to miss recess...
Obama to date has 260 EO's. Bush Jr. had 292. Reagan 381, Nixon 346. Please enlighten me what Obama EO do you have a problem with? Just note the above for precedence.
AngieT Nothing to do with testosterone here. Sometime T gets mistaken for facts. Facts anyone of any faith, color, sex, immigration status can consult.
Quote from: DawnOday on November 25, 2016, 03:05:36 PM
Please enlighten me what Obama EO do you have a problem with? Just note the above for precedence.
I don't have a problem with his EOs. I misunderstood the gist of the post I was responding to.
But my point was that EOs are for getting something specific done. They are not for some amorphous concept like uniting the country.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: Deborah on November 25, 2016, 02:55:14 PM
To quote a Republican President I did vote for, "There you go again!"
You all are forever carrying on about executive orders. The fact is that Obama issued fewer executive orders (249), than Bush II (291), Reagan (381), Nixon (346), or Eisenhower (486).
Source: https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/disposition.html
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
I voted for Reagan too. I learned, after finding crack in my neighborhood supplied by Mr Reagan Mr Bush and the CIA. No more Cons for me. I wonder why Hillary was not allowed to testify "no recollection" 88 times. Sometimes I wish my memory was compromised by my stroke but I can recall minutiae and sometimes it's a curse. Not this time.
Who is leading the effort to get the election results in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania changed?
Quote from: mac1 on November 25, 2016, 03:30:42 PM
Who is leading the effort to get the election results in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania changed?
That would be Jill Stein. She is asking for a recount. Since your president elect was so adamant that the entire system was broken and corrupt I should think you would fully support any effort to expose that corruption.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: DawnOday on November 25, 2016, 03:26:31 PM
I voted for Reagan too. I learned, after finding crack in my neighborhood supplied by Mr Reagan Mr Bush and the CIA. No more Cons for me. I wonder why Hillary was not allowed to testify "no recollection" 88 times. Sometimes I wish my memory was compromised by my stroke but I can recall minutiae and sometimes it's a curse. Not this time.
I still like Reagan. I was commissioned in the Army at the beginning of the Reagan era. We were still in the post Vietnam era and had lots of problems. Under Reagan the military was transformed into something never before seen, allowing us to achieve the near miraculous victory in the First Gulf War.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: mac1 on November 25, 2016, 02:19:00 PM
DawnOday
It takes a good leader to work with Congress to achieve mutual agreement for the good of the country. The Constitution does not give the president dictatorial authority to bypass Congress on such matters.
The Constitution also gives the president authority to deploy the military temporally, under certain conditions, without prior Congressional authority. Bill Clinton also exercised that authority.
It is too soon to know how Trump will handle these matters and if he will succeed for the benefit of the country.
As for racism; Obama would never have been elected if he had not received a large white vote.
Every president in the past was given the opportunity to see what he could accomplish (Obama had it twice). Trump now deserves our support and the same opportunity.
There are only so many concessions one can make before you realize everything is going one way. Obstruction, disrespect for the position, and a promise to obstruct from the very beginning. No other President has been addressed disrespectfully as Obama has. I would think you would love a Christian family man. But no, Obama can't have his religion. Like it or not he is Christian and always has been. Obamas wife cannot even expose her arms without complaint. But Trumps wife can go nude. and nobody says a thing. Obama can't even have his own birthplace of Hawaii which by the time he was born was proclaimed the 50th state. Does anyone have any idea what a stretch it is to claim the documents are fake. Even though you cannot fake a newspaper published over 50 years ago.
Since Republicans have gained control of Congress
Partisan fights remain, and senators aren't spending much time on the floor debating bills — but they are passing them, and at a surprising clip.
All told, including the 31 Senate bills and 42 House-written bills, Congress approved 73 measures that Mr. Obama signed into law from January through the end of June. That's nearly three times the number of bills approved in the first six months of 2015 and 20 more than in 2014, which was the last year Democrats had control of the Senate.
Why is it too soon. Trump has a track record of division and derision. Putting down blacks as thugs, mexicans as rapists, Jews as owning entertainment industry, disabled are spaztic, a war hero is a loser because he got captured. Beauty queens are fat, assault is acceptable, vile rhetoric is encouraged. Nationalists are applauded, Nazi's and KKK have gone mainstream. I don't know what country you are from but in America those are not positive traits. Please tell me again how. According to Trump the President can't have a conflict of interest. Tearing down infrastructure and replacing it with toll roads. Endorsing the fact in certain states you cannot even go to the bathroom, marry your partner, share custody of a child. You do not have the right to healthcare, if you want to change your name, do it now. In two months you won't be able to. I know I can't convince you are anyone else that is immune to facts but hey maybe someone else will read and realize what's been going on. What I do know, Obama is the best President of my lifetime. Every opportunity to bring Hope and Change was twarted by the 9% Congress. And when he failed there was "How is that hopey changy thing going for you. You had Rush Limbaugh complaining before Obama even warm the seat in the Oval Office.
Positions like that will continue to divide and not heal the country. Is that what you desire? Obama was given 8 years to try. Now Trump deserves his chance to see if he can unite the country and move forward. That is what he is offering and asking the people to accept. Our country depends on the president's success.
The liberal mindset is so one sided they don't stop and comprehend why conservatives control almost the entire USA right now. Barry Sotoero to lied to Harvard and had his law license revoked,michelle had hers revoked for fraud. Barry Sotoero was the first president since the founding that was born on foreign soil and moved from Kenya to Indonesia where he became a Indonesian citizen and applied to Princeton as a foreign student,he didn't have a U.S. passport Til he became President. The republicans were elected to control both houses to stop the liberal spending spree when the democrats took control near the end of Bush's second term they caused the problems we have had. Like I said city folk don't understand country folk.
Wow. Just wow
CLAIM: Barack and Michelle Obama surrendered their law licenses to avoid pending disciplinary actions. FALSE
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/lawlicenses.asp
Obama born in Kenya. FALSE
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/birthcertificate.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/kenyacert.asp
It never ends.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
After trying to talk on fb since the election, I'm amazed at all the bogus "news" stories. Critical thinking has gone out the window.
The partisan hate fest on Susans continues.
If we can't even "agree to disagree" with other posters on Susan's, the community really is doomed to failure. If I want to discuss politics, there are more civil places to do so elsewhere.
*********
To the moderators:
Is it possible to delete my account, please? I think I'm done here.
Best wishes,
Angie
:police:
Lets please keep it civil. I would like to be able to keep this topic open for discussion, but that is hard to do if people can't get along. I know people have different view points and reasons for them, but that doesn't mean that we can't get along with each other. Thanks
Mariah
@DawnODay - I think the right to change one's name is safe, since otherwise it'd have (probably unconstitutional) effects beyond the transgender community.
Let it rest. Put the negative aside. Look on the positive. Unite for the good of the country.
Quote from: mac1 on November 25, 2016, 11:25:36 PM
Positions like that will continue to divide and not heal the country. Is that what you desire? Obama was given 8 years to try. Now Trump deserves his chance to see if he can unite the country and move forward. That is what he is offering and asking the people to accept. Our country depends on the president's success.
Our president did succeed, the economy is better today than anyone had dared hope in 2008/9 and or debt as a proportion of gnp is in line with where it was post WWII, consistent with paying for the huge expense of paying for a war.
Obviously I (and most of the left) accept that Trump won and sure he gets his chance. That doesn't mean rolling over for an agenda that I don't believe in and I foresee a serious invigoration of grass roots activism.
Because this is the greatest strength of the US, ultimately government follows the people, not vise versa.
Barack accomplished what he did in spite of the most dysfunctional and least popular Congress in history and if he'd been eligible for a third term he'd almost certainly have won.
Ultimately the Republican desire for national unity will remain a phantasm as long as their Christian wing demands a total abortion ban, a repeal of same sex marriage, a restriction on LGBT rights, and the right for anyone Christian to discriminate in public commerce against anyone for anything based upon some claimed religious belief. They demand this at the same time they demand a restriction on Muslim free exercise of religion based upon their religious beliefs. Regardless of what you think of either religion this is a clearly not in accordance with the first amendment to the Constitution.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: Deborah on November 26, 2016, 03:47:44 AM
CLAIM: Barack and Michelle Obama surrendered their law licenses to avoid pending disciplinary actions. FALSE
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/lawlicenses.asp
That is true I remember when that happened
Obama born in Kenya. FALSE
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/birthcertificate.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/kenyacert.asp
Barry Sotoero admitted being born in Kenyan,he didn't barrack til he came back to the USA after renewing his Pakistani passport,this is why he holds no law license for he lied about using different names.
It never ends.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
Snopes has been proven to use falsified info. So don't use it ,i prefer source material.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: Deborah on November 26, 2016, 11:21:32 AM
Ultimately the Republican desire for national unity will remain a phantasm as long as their Christian wing demands a total abortion ban, a repeal of same sex marriage, a restriction on LGBT rights, and the right for anyone Christian to discriminate in public commerce against anyone for anything based upon some claimed religious belief. They demand this at the same time they demand a restriction on Muslim free exercise of religion based upon their religious beliefs. Regardless of what you think of either religion this is a clearly not in accordance with the first amendment to the Constitution.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.It does not say that religion has to be separate from government. It does say that the practice of any religion must be restricted based on it's non-acceptance by another. Current practice in the United States has been to restrict the rights of Christianity and Judaism while promoting the rights of Islam and Atheism. How is that in agreement with the Constitution?
Please explain how Christian and Jewish rights have been infringed.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
:police: This thread is locked for administrator review. A member who I have great respect for is leaving the room as the result of the infighting that is taking place. Political discussion are limited to to how government policies affect the LGBT community. This thread has drifted far from the original issue posted by the OP and I currently feel it's not salvageable :police: