I am only 6 months into transition, but I am realizing that the way I react to men is different. In male mode, I was always checking my status in a guarded manner. For one, I had to keep up that male facade lest someone "suspect" my truth. It was usually pretty uncomfortable for me. Now, it is actually very much more relaxed. There is no more pressure to compete in status. I am not saying this in a sexual way, but I seem to like to tease them, maybe not quite flirt but use humor to mess with them. One guy at work is always making sexist types of comments as a way to tease in a place that is majority woman. I don't know if he knows my history or not, but he is respectful to me. I do like shooting comments right back. For guys who know my history, it is kind of fun watching them trying to figure out how to treat me, well until they make the adjustment. With women there is some pressure to see how I fit in. With men, the pressure is off. Hope I am not duplicating some other thread, but I am curious how other ladies see it in 2017.
Monica
When I felt like I had to compete but didn't like it and wasn't good at it I disliked most men. Now that I know who I am and am mostly perceived as I wish to be, I really, really dislike most men. I don't tolerate stereotypical male behavior very well. As an older woman, and a lesbian I'm fairly comfortable around other women. I'm too old to try to compete with them and I still appreciate looking and interacting with them.
I used to hate men pre-transition, but now at 10 months, I'm a lot more attracted to them. Like I still don't like how stereotypical some men can be, but I do find them a lot more attractive. I'm still nervous about interacting with men though, but other than more attractions towards them in a dating manner, I'm not sure what else to say lol
I made a post on this in the Sexuality forum. But I will admit that lately I have been reacting to men differently. I have been pretty much in the lesbian camp for years and I have no complaints, but over the last few months something has been changing inside of me. I am still exploring what this is. So our lives can change, including how we interact or are attracted to the opposite sex at any point.
I love how complicated we humans are... :)
-Sarah
I can't say that much has changed. I used to ignore them and go about my day... I still ignore them and keep going with my daily routine. The classic "male posturing" in public is more of an annoyance to me. Having been the subject of being put down as a way to improve their social standing, I find it juvenille and irritating. Its no wonder that I have so little interest in men... lol. Sexual innuendo and eluding to sexual acts in conversation is another that I dont care for in conversation. I haven't decided if that is from old fashioned modesty, or if it is a result of my own insecurites of having been born male.
When I started transition I thought I would avoid them as much as possible. Didn't like the sexist jokes and the way most of them put down their wives when trying to act macho. Thought I would just end up being a lesbian.
That has gradually changed and now I'm trying to learn how to flirt a bit and looking for a boyfriend. Not sure how that's going to work out but I'm going to give it a try.
I don't know if my view has changed or I'm paying attention to more men than I would have in the past. I still don't like what I described above but I am seeing that there are a few out there that are not like that.
I remember just prior to living full time (2008), I attended a potluck with a local trans group. I recall transwoman asking me about my preference in partners. I thought to myself what an invasive question. I said I don't know, just came out of a marriage of 8 years. I still remember her saying "men are pigs...you're not a real transwoman if you think of men."
Once living full time, I found I was getting more looks my way from men, and even dates from vanilla dating sites.
I met the most wonderful guy in 2013 who saw my ad...and we began dating. He knew I was pre-op...even though my parts kind of icked him out. We're happily married...he's special. He was there with me when I got GRS, supports me beyond words. And to boot, he's with the police. His co-workers...right up to the chief of police like me. Probably because I make them all fudge lol.
I always used to feel like I understood men (back in the day.) Now after 18 months HRT, they seem, whats the word, foreign. I feel much more distant from my place in that world. Guess that says a lot for how far I have come. It might have something to do with not knowing how men view me as a trans woman. That truly is a mystery to me. Wondering if this is a common feeling.
Monica
There is a very funny comedy segment by Mark Gungor (I believe) about the difference between woman's and men's brains. It is worth a "google."
Everything is different now.
Wow, I'm actually struggling to come up with words at this point. The biggest change is how sexual attraction changes the dynamic of interaction -- all the little rituals of flirtation and so forth, and being in heterosexual relationship with a man is, well, he shows you something of his inner self that he never shows the rest of the world. And like Monica pointed out, men have their own rituals for establishing relative hierarchies (even to determine if they're equals) and there's none of that now. Also, I'm much more aware of just how much men in general are lacking in awareness of other people.
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 07, 2017, 09:26:01 AM
I always used to feel like I understood men (back in the day.) Now after 18 months HRT, they seem, whats the word, foreign. I feel much more distant from my place in that world. Guess that says a lot for how far I have come. It might have something to do with not knowing how men view me as a trans woman. That truly is a mystery to me. Wondering if this is a common feeling.
I think I have a similar "foreign" perspective on men - coincidentally, also about 18 months into HRT. It's made me wonder about the power of testosterone to drive behavior as well as to guide physical development. It's an awfully powerful thing, and as someone who once had to try to be male, I find myself sympathetic to men who are dealing with the impulses and influences of that hormone. Poor boys!
I find healthy, friendly men sexy and love the idea of being treated "like a lady"...however I really dislike the testosterone-driven attitudes and behaviors that I now really *get* since I transitioned.
The weirdest thing is my sense of smell has changed dramatically - I find that men smell "gamey" or like they have B.O. all the time, even though they're clean. It's got to be pheromones. :P
I get this weird tingling down my spine when a cute guy smiles at me
I have given up on acting male. I have found that over all, I cannot stand most guys. They are so full of themselves and only have one thing on their mind, we know what that is. There are a few rare exeptions though.
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Quote from: Mia on January 07, 2017, 12:38:04 PM
I find healthy, friendly men sexy and love the idea of being treated "like a lady"...however I really dislike the testosterone-driven attitudes and behaviors that I now really *get* since I transitioned.
The weirdest thing is my sense of smell has changed dramatically - I find that men smell "gamey" or like they have B.O. all the time, even though they're clean. It's got to be pheromones. [emoji14]
I noticed that too. I just thought it was my sense of smell acting up.
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I have 35 operating engineers and about 30 outsourced electricians, fitters and specialty contractors. I am in contact with 60 maintenance and hundreds of construction workers in construction areas.
Before I came out conversations between the guys would be a competition of who was the doggiest or who was man in the relationship. Often it would be where they would brag about sex ( when a pretty woman walked by a guy would say to the others, "would you". I was shocked about how many would cheat on their wives and girlfriends. After coming out all that stopped and none of that conversation is spoken in my presence.
I did get told several times when my nipples were erect, that I was thin for a guy but heavy for a female and a bunch of guys asked when as I going to get my boob job. I had two guys suggest I go bigger on the implants to a double D. One guy asked if he could feel my boobs after the operation.
Guys let me on and off an elevator first, hold open doors and in general are very nice to me.
There are a few guys I find attractive and one that I am very attracted to. Now that I am single and post op I think I wish and then think I can which is very different than before. When I am talking to a cute guy ( especially the one) it is very different. I think of what I would love him to do or what I want to do and get a bit hot. There is a lot of smiling and eye contact.
It is very different now.
As male, I never took note of other men, I was always more at home with female company. I started HRT and I was firmly in the lesbian camp and very happy there.
Then in my 3rd year of HRT I did a favor for a friend, her male cousin needed a date to a wedding and I was single and was fixed up with him. We kinda clicked and actually began dating.. Something inside made me feel this was right. I loved being treated like a lady and quickly began enjoying playing the "traditional" female role in the relationship. The first time we kissed or when he slid his hand on my butt while kissing was weird but nice. We dated for about 9 months and then I dated a bisexual woman, but I ended it because I began wanted a boyfriend. Now I am engaged a wonderful man and cant imagine being with anyone else.
I am seeing in response to my original question a number of ladies who were never attracted to men, but later seemed to warm to the idea. Some make the actual switch over. I described a change over in my attitude from feeling that I understood men and competed with them, to feeling distant and having a lack of understanding of them (after transitioning). I have never been attracted to men and am very happy with my wife. I do feel really good about myself when anything happens to reaffirm my femininity though. I think if a guy were to check me out, it would make me feel good about myself. If I were not with my wife, I honestly don't know if I would allow it to progress in any type of romantic feeling. For those of you who had a changeover in orientation, do you think it was because it was so reassuring to your sense of making it to womanhood (so to speak). Is there any sense that the switch over in your desired partners is a completion of your transformation? Thanks to anyone who can help me understand his.
Monica
I liked men before; they're great and have penises. Now, I really love them and couldn't imagine life without my man. I love sex, even though I'm add-on, for now. I can't wait to have sex after. Though, men make me feel safe. I'm really small. The one thing is know men won't talk to me without sexual tension being present, if that makes sense. Plus, now women, good looking ones, get jealous of no I. Yeah, me! I never thought a woman would be jealous of how I look and worry I'd steal their BF. I like being treated like a woman now. I hate "man" work, which no one let's me do anyway.
I spent time trying to fit in as one and that did not work, but it gave me a bit of insight into how they are when not in mixed company and I realized that just is not something I am interested in. The stupid games just hold no allure. True, you could find that gem, they certainly do exist...but 90% of what society coins a MAN is really little more than a T fueled kid with an income.
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 08, 2017, 01:36:45 PMI think if a guy were to check me out, it would make me feel good about myself. If I were not with my wife, I honestly don't know if I would allow it to progress in any type of romantic feeling. For those of you who had a changeover in orientation, do you think it was because it was so reassuring to your sense of making it to womanhood (so to speak). Is there any sense that the switch over in your desired partners is a completion of your transformation?
Well, first, I think there's just about always a changeover in orientation post-transition (unless you've always been asexual or pansexual). You can frame it as whether you were having sex with men or women before... or you can frame it as whether the sex was heterosexual or homosexual.
Semantics aside, yeah, I think there's a lot of congruence between heteronormativity and gendering. Even in gay communities, there's quite a bit of cross-gendered expression... the swishy queen, the stone-cold dyke. As if who you are with has implications for how you "do" gender. Not necessarily, of course, just a tendency.
Me, I've come to realize that I really prefer heterosexual sex, and so of course having sex with straight men post-op is enormously affirming. Naturally, your mileage may vary...
I'm not sure my question has been answered. Some M to F transgender people who were always attracted to females, switch to being with males at some point in their transition. From my personal experience, I know how immensely powerful the desire is to be female, feminine, accepted as such by myself and others. Is this immensely powerful desire the cause of people switching to sleeping with men instead of women? I can imagine that being with a guy would make the transwoman much more secure in their femininity. When a transwoman is with a cis woman, maybe it could be less soothing to any insecurity that the transwoman might have. If that is the case, there might be motivation to be with men instead of woman. I would probably say it is reasonable to say that some transwomen are so "hard wired" that a change in orientation is not possible. For those who switch, I would like to know why it is important to do so. Why is being with a female no longer good enough?
Monica
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 09, 2017, 11:26:00 AMI'm not sure my question has been answered. Some M to F transgender people who were always attracted to females, switch to being with males at some point in their transition. From my personal experience, I know how immensely powerful the desire is to be female, feminine, accepted as such by myself and others. Is this immensely powerful desire the cause of people switching to sleeping with men instead of women?
I'm not sure it's possible to identify a "cause" in this. It was simply the reality for me -- especially after facial surgery.
QuoteI would probably say it is reasonable to say that some transwomen are so "hard wired" that a change in orientation is not possible. For those who switch, I would like to know why it is important to do so. Why is being with a female no longer good enough?
Um, because being with women doesn't get me sexually excited anymore. Having sex with men, that's what really turns me on now. I just go with what my body tells me. So maybe what's "hard wired" into me is heterosexual sex. Again, depends on how you frame sexuality -- is it about the type of sex you have, or who you have it with?
The heart has its seasons, which reason cannot know.
I definitely respond differently for sure. My fear of some of them was there before the sexual assault, but after it I stay guarded in a sense to ensure I'm totally aware of my surroundings. There is no doubt that I have been attracted to them at the same time, but have found that I'm not fond of the kind that are aggressive and macho, but of the kind that are caring and considerate. In the end, I found the guy I love who I'm completely attracted too. I'm so holding on tight too and won't let go of him. The previous boyfriend found out and I feel was puzzled by I'm turned on by the person before the body. Hugs
Mariah
So Sophia and Mariah, when you were younger, you were attracted to women and now you are only interested in men. It's almost as if your move to the female people you are (externally) left no room for another female presence in a relationship. Do you think the attraction to men was always there and you just hid it because you didn't see yourself being with a male with a male body? I find it hard to believe it is just a matter of plumbing. It is a pretty big jump going from never romantically thinking about men to wanting them exclusively. I am not doubting what you are telling me, but I can't wrap my head around how or why such a change occurs.
Monica
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 09, 2017, 05:31:25 PMSo Sophia and Mariah, when you were younger, you were attracted to women and now you are only interested in men.
I wouldn't say "only" -- "primarily" would be more accurate, as in "heteroflexible." I've had a dozen or so lovers post-op, two were women. Before transition, I had a couple of male lovers -- one in an orgy situation, another a long-term friend who occasionally instigated but they didn't really get me going, so to speak -- but I was deeply repressed back then, not actively dysphoric, so my situation is very different from what most of us experienced.
I thought I was going to take another female lover about a month ago, someone I met this summer and was just bowled over by her charisma. She was in town, and I spent the day with her, went back to her hotel room... and there just wasn't a spark. Neither of us made a move, we just talked, and then it was time to go. A lovely conversation, but by the end I was like, "I really liked her company, but I'm not horny or anything."
QuoteIt's almost as if your move to the female people you are (externally) left no room for another female presence in a relationship.
That's... a perhaps controversial way to put it. Actually, my closest relationships are with other women -- they're just not sexual relationships.
So it's not about "room" for who I have in a relationship. It's about who I'm attracted to. And that changed during transition. Much to the consternation and yet also relief of my partner at the time, who was willing to try being lesbian, but really wasn't looking forward to it.
QuoteDo you think the attraction to men was always there and you just hid it because you didn't see yourself being with a male with a male body? I find it hard to believe it is just a matter of plumbing. It is a pretty big jump going from never romantically thinking about men to wanting them exclusively. I am not doubting what you are telling me, but I can't wrap my head around how or why such a change occurs.
Well, who knows? I have no idea why I've responded the way I have. I can only hypothesize -- mainly, that I prefer heterosexuality. Or it could be how my brain responded to HRT -- as I said, my orientation shifted during transition, not afterwards, but then transition is such a huge change in orientation itself, it could just be that.
Equally, though, I think it's a pretty big jump on your part going from being invested in a heterosexual relationship to a homosexual relationship, and even more so for your partner.
Perhaps sexuality is more malleable and fluid than people give it credit for. I knew a woman who thought she was straight until she fell in love with another woman (who was definitely gay). I know a woman who was gay until her 60s... and now just wants to be with men. Or maybe they were "always" bisexual? Does sexuality need to be "fixed" or immutable in any way? Maybe it is for some people, and not for others. The longer I live, the more I realize there are no universal constants when it comes to humanity.
I don't think we need to "wrap our heads around it" in the end, because our bodies and hearts have their seasons and homelands of their own, and all that precedes conscious thought, precedes reason. We just simply have to accept it.
This seems to be one of my biggest points of confusion. It's always coming up in therapy. Pre-Transisition and before I ever knew I was trans, I never wanted to be with a man. Sure a dream or something here or there, but never wakingly wanted to be with one and that was until I was 26. After acceptance of being trans I still said I would be exclusively attracted to women. That changed about 2 months into hormones. I believe that for me it was more about the validation that I could get with being with a man rather than being physically attracted to a man. My head was in the area of men like women, mostly, so if a man wants to be with me, then that must mean that I am female looking enough and I pass enough that he sees me like any other woman. So it validates what I always felt I was and continues to do so.
Then I realized why I began to become attracted to males, reason above, and thought hmmmmm that doesn't seem like the whole picture. I'm missing something. SO I opened my closed mind again and found that I love the female figure much more than a man's as far as attraction goes. I believe I pushed these feelings away because I would feel more womanly being with a man when in fact being with either doesn't make me anymore of a women than what I am.
Currently I am Bi dating a man, but prefer women. If me and my BF break up, then I would def search out a female SO first. Hope this answers your question :)
I'm a lot more annoyed by subtle sexism and microaggressions now, and there are a lot fewer men who seem to "get it" than I thought before I transitioned. I guess you could say I ended up as even more of a feminist. ;) I don't actually hate men, and I have some very good male friends, but there's no getting around the fact that living as a woman made me realize how often men *don't* know what that's like. So I still enjoy the friendships, but some topics are more fraught than before.
I was also bisexual before transition and I am still bi after, but I admit that there has been a change there. I HATED being treated as a gay/bi man by other queer men, whereas there's something appealing in being treated as a woman by a straight guy. I'd guess that the percentage of my orientation that involves men I'm potentially attracted to went from maybe 10% to 25% (although I'm married, so it's moot).
Oh, and I also noticed the thing where a lot of men smell "off" or strongly even though they're clean!
It is often repeated that orientation and being trans are two different things. I believe that. People who have had same sex attraction have been subjected to all kinds of horrible treatment and still their attraction remains unchanged. So, along comes trans people and some say that their attraction has changed through transition. (For the sake of simplicity I am not stressing bisexuality here).
Sophia I see why you say HRT might have a big influence especially when you stated that things changed for you during your transition. The idea of just wanting the label of heterosexual sex doesn't seem as likely. We like what we like no matter the label.
Quote from: Iliana.Found on January 10, 2017, 10:48:32 AM
before I ever knew I was trans, I never wanted to be with a man. Sure a dream or something here or there, but never wakingly wanted to be with one and that was until I was 26. After acceptance of being trans I still said I would be exclusively attracted to women. That changed about 2 months into hormones. I believe that for me it was more about the validation that I could get with being with a man rather than being physically attracted to a man. My head was in the area of men like women, mostly, so if a man wants to be with me, then that must mean that I am female looking enough and I pass enough that he sees me like any other woman. So it validates what I always felt I was and continues to do so.
Then I realized why I began to become attracted to males, reason above, and thought hmmmmm that doesn't seem like the whole picture. I'm missing something. SO I opened my closed mind again and found that I love the female figure much more than a man's as far as attraction goes. I believe I pushed these feelings away because I would feel more womanly being with a man when in fact being with either doesn't make me anymore of a women than what I am.
Iliana this makes a lot of sense to me. If you take into account the mind frame of the trans person who has been desperately suppressing their female side only to spring forth looking for validation as a woman, I can well see that being with a man could be very reassuring and validating. The desire to be accepted as female in my experience is extremely powerful. I am naturally attracted to women. Even though I am not especially attracted to men, I can see that it might have a certain draw to it. Like Jenna said there is that "smell issue" or should I say "scent."
Does this make sense to anyone else, or am I off base here? I am motivated to understand this because I want to stay with my wife. The fact that my attitude toward men is more like seeing them through binoculars than a microscope now, made me a bit nervous. Like how far does this outlook change go?
Monica
This is such an interesting discussion! When I began my transition, I figured I would be a lesbian, because I had zero interest in men as romantic or sexual partners. After a few months on hormones, I noticed men a lot more. I surprised myself on more than one occasion thinking to myself, "That guy is really cute!". It was like, "Wait, who said that?!"
Since my transition, almost all my friends are women. I prefer their company as I am more relaxed and comfortable around them. When I am around men, I am much more conscious of my appearance and careful with what I say. The exception to this is at work. I transitioned at work after over two years there as a guy, and weirdly enough, my transition has gone so smoothly at work that nobody treats me an differently at all, so I simply am in "work mode".
Surprisingly, I now have a boyfriend. There were some slightly extenuating circumstances, in that he is gender fluid to some extent, and really likes trans girls. He is so sweet to me, and is always kind and supportive. When I had my FFS, he would come by the hotel and bring me soup, and whatever little items I needed from the drug store. We would sit and watch old moves together, often holding hands. However, there really isn't a lot of sexual attraction there, mainly because (I think) I am on anti-androgens and have pretty much zero libido. And I have told him this. Fortunately, he is okay with this. We are both older, I am 59 and he is 65, and we both know how to appreciate the finer things in life.
I spent New Year's with him, and we shared a bed. We cuddled, but I told him no sex until after I am anatomically correct. It's a little confusing for me, since there is no sexual component to it, but it is not much different from the time I shared a bed with my best girlfriend. We cuddled then, too, and it was intimacy without sex.
Am I still attracted to women? Kinda, yeah. I think the female form is the most erotic, but I really have to wait until after SRS to tell if I am bisexual or I just like to be with anyone is intelligent and kind.
~Terri
Coming into transition I wasn't sure which group, if either, I was attracted too. It's why the therapist asked me that first session if I was Asexual, but by that point I did know which group I was attracted too. A few of my friends remember how I looked at guys growing up and I hadn't recalled anything before that point, but after that point bits and pieces came to mind. In the end, it is clear I was attracted to guys all along but I had blocked it out for some reason before that point. I should note that was all sorted out pre hormones. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 09, 2017, 05:31:25 PM
So Sophia and Mariah, when you were younger, you were attracted to women and now you are only interested in men. It's almost as if your move to the female people you are (externally) left no room for another female presence in a relationship. Do you think the attraction to men was always there and you just hid it because you didn't see yourself being with a male with a male body? I find it hard to believe it is just a matter of plumbing. It is a pretty big jump going from never romantically thinking about men to wanting them exclusively. I am not doubting what you are telling me, but I can't wrap my head around how or why such a change occurs.
Monica
after quite some time on HRT, I view them a bit different. Before I didnt care about their appearance at all, but now I am so superficial with looks that I started to dislike 'non-hot guys'. I don't like how that turned out but ... well it is like that now. Also, I started appreciating their dominant character a lot.
Quote from: Iliana.Found on January 10, 2017, 10:48:32 AMMy head was in the area of men like women, mostly, so if a man wants to be with me, then that must mean that I am female looking enough and I pass enough that he sees me like any other woman. So it validates what I always felt I was and continues to do so.
Then I realized why I began to become attracted to males, reason above, and thought hmmmmm that doesn't seem like the whole picture. I'm missing something. SO I opened my closed mind again and found that I love the female figure much more than a man's as far as attraction goes. I believe I pushed these feelings away because I would feel more womanly being with a man when in fact being with either doesn't make me anymore of a women than what I am.
Whether it's lesbians or straight men who find you attractive, it's going to be validating, though to be honest just being found attractive by anyone at all is extremely validating, gender implications aside.
However, the power of the gender implications shouldn't be dismissed, either. Because that certainly feels very
very good. And because we live in a heteronormative society, I think there's a special appeal to being found attractive and being in a relationship with a straight man, because it's such a relief just to feel
normal.
But these are not the same as
erotic attraction on our own part. And, I dunno, I think hormones can affect that (though not always) because we can give off and respond to different pheremones differently, and I think SRS can affect it as well, just in terms of what "feels good" down there.
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 10, 2017, 01:35:30 PMSophia I see why you say HRT might have a big influence especially when you stated that things changed for you during your transition. The idea of just wanting the label of heterosexual sex doesn't seem as likely. We like what we like no matter the label.
To be clear, it's not the label I find erotic, it's the
act of heterosexuality that turns me on. Like, watching gay or lesbian porn really doesn't do it for me, it never has. It's the frisson of a man and a woman that revs me up.
QuoteI am motivated to understand this because I want to stay with my wife. The fact that my attitude toward men is more like seeing them through binoculars than a microscope now, made me a bit nervous. Like how far does this outlook change go?
It's impossible to predict, Moni.
And it's impossible to predict how your wife is going to react, either. If she's already solidly bi, that's certainly better for you, and if you are too, then you probably won't have a problem.
But you might also, after healing from bottom surgery, find yourself in the position where you just have to know what it's like to have sex with a man. It's a distinct possibility. It might not turn out that way. But it happens often enough that it's something you and your spouse should talk about.
My partner during transition was strictly monogamous. As soon as I was
kissed by a man, she was done with it, she was through, especially as by that point I'd already made it clear I didn't want to have kids. But this was ultimately for the best. The way it was shaping up, she was always going to be
the woman in the relationship -- the one who could get pregnant, the one who would stay at home with babies, and I was always going to be some "other" woman... at best. And this, despite her best intentions. It was ultimately a gift to us both that the relationship ended. Even if we
had discovered lesbian sexual compatibility...
...because I discovered I also had to find out what it was like to be in relationships (sexual and otherwise) that weren't haunted by a trans narrative. But that's another matter entirely.
It's worth noting that some people find they can transcend their typical orientation for a specific person - there are cis lesbians who fall in love with one specific man, otherwise straight cis women who stay with a trans wife, etc. - so I would not assume that transition and/or GRS would be the death knell of a relationship. Sometimes transition highlights faults that were there already, and it certainly *can* end relationships, but it's far from a guarantee.
(And I found out what it was like to be penetrated by a dick without needing a man per se; there are also many, many people who are profoundly curious about some sex object or sex act outside of their relationship but manage to control the temptation or figure out a way to experiment with "the next best thing.")
In other words, Moni, if you want to stay with your wife, that will most likely be within your control. It might be difficult and involve compromises, but HRT and GRS are not typically an unstoppable juggernaut that compel you to go find a man. I'm speaking up mostly because my own wife ended up very traumatized by people insisting that HRT would send me chasing off after the nearest man and force me to abandon her. She gets very frustrated when anyone acts as if transition automatically destroys every relationship.
Well Ladies, there we go! We all have our own feelings and attractions. For me, I am 67 and I have little or no sexual drive. Mostly, I prefer women for conversation and company. Now a days, I feel mostly sorry for the men around me who are so limited in what they say and do.
The responses on this thread have really been very insightful. In my case, I am very happy with my wife and she with me. There is likely a bisexual element to both of us. I am just now relieving myself through transition of the incredible longing of wanting something that was always out of my reach. I wanted to be female bodied all my life. I don't really want to replace it with any other type of longing (like for a different sex partner.) At this point, maybe I am a little nervous. I have changed so much and I don't know where that change stops. Now add in GCS. I know that will profoundly effect how I see myself. Others may be different, but for me I know this to be true. What that means in terms of sexual desire, I don't know til I get there. To be completely honest, if I wasn't in a relationship I would be interested in experiencing sex with both sexes(only as a female). There is so much more to what I have with my partner than sex though. I am so lucky, and I don't want to screw that up with desires or actions. So, I am trying to figure things out as best I can. Thank you all for helping with this.
Moni
Great question. Before I started transitioning I considered myself bi/pansexuali. As I continue to transition I am only attracted to women. I have been hit on guys and I like it but zero attraction.
I have found out that some guys can be real jerks, to put it nicely, when politely turned down. New years eve I almost reverted to old me on a fool after he purposely shoulder checked me 5 times. A friend of mine is so cute she put her hand on my arm and said "Sarabeth, we don't do that"
since I work in a dangerous 95% male environment I do find myself acting more masculine than I like to, almost like I have to stay tough in order to stay safe. Takes me almost all weekend to come down from and move, speak and behave more feminine, then it is back to work. And yes I am 100% out at work..
Sarabeth
My response to men has become much more complicated. I have always been transgender and queer. I have had wonderful loving experiences with people regardless of gender or body parts. I have clearly felt female no matter my partners orientation or gender.
After a few years into transition I can acknowledge an even deeper attraction to men, including their smells. At the same time I have been exposed to considerable mansplaining, gas lighting, and too typical misogyny. When living as a man I found men, gay or straight, to be competitive and status oriented to an uncomfortable degree. I then participated in sizing one another up and direct eye contact. I found more gay men to be emotionally available and sensitive.
Now i avoid direct eye contact with men that can lead to miscommunications at best and leering or quizzical looks too often. I cannot really know their intentions but have no need to engage them. Flirting is now much more perilous. I used to enjoy flirting with gay men. Other women are much more engaging now thank goodness.
Fortunately I remain married and committed so much of this becomes academic and interesting from a distance. ;)
Quote from: Tessa James on January 13, 2017, 01:08:53 PM
My response to men has become much more complicated.
Now i avoid direct eye contact with men that can lead to miscommunications at best and leering or quizzical looks too often. I cannot really know their intentions but have no need to engage them. Flirting is now much more perilous. I used to enjoy flirting with gay men. Other women are much more engaging now thank goodness.
Tessa,
I am not as far into my adjustment as you are. I am still very frequently running into situations that I have to figure out. I know how to deal with situations with men as a "male." I don't know how to react as myself, as crazy as that sounds. For example, when I am around men who did not know me before, I find myself not keeping eye contact for very long. I kind of act a bit shy. I don't know if this is perceived as flirting, which I have no intention of doing. I am very unsure as to how I am perceived, so I think I get shy. I imagine that maybe this is not too unusual for a newbie like myself. Added to this, I sometimes feel like I am walking a tightrope with my voice. I have had throat issues and it can be a bit unpredictable. Another reason I am shy right now. It's funny but, I am not worried about male bravado. I look forward to it in a way. I want to goof on it or perhaps at least call them on it. The moment someone talks to me like I know nothing about cars or sports or puts women down, I am going to have some fun. I love having the female perspective, I can't wait until I really get my bearings. Anyone have any input on similar experiences or shyness? I wonder how long it takes for this to become old hat.
Monica
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 13, 2017, 06:21:07 PM
Tessa,
I am not as far into my adjustment as you are. I am still very frequently running into situations that I have to figure out. I know how to deal with situations with men as a "male." I don't know how to react as myself, as crazy as that sounds. For example, when I am around men who did not know me before, I find myself not keeping eye contact for very long. I kind of act a bit shy. I don't know if this is perceived as flirting, which I have no intention of doing. I am very unsure as to how I am perceived, so I think I get shy. I imagine that maybe this is not too unusual for a newbie like myself. Added to this, I sometimes feel like I am walking a tightrope with my voice. I have had throat issues and it can be a bit unpredictable. Another reason I am shy right now. It's funny but, I am not worried about male bravado. I look forward to it in a way. I want to goof on it or perhaps at least call them on it. The moment someone talks to me like I know nothing about cars or sports or puts women down, I am going to have some fun. I love having the female perspective, I can't wait until I really get my bearings. Anyone have any input on similar experiences or shyness? I wonder how long it takes for this to become old hat.
Monica
Boy, can I relate to this. I'm standing at the edge of the pool, ready to jump into the dating game. I have no idea of what I'm doing, have not dated in 40 years and never as a woman.
My voice is on the ragged edge and could slip back at any time. Wish me luck!
I'm slowly tending towards the view that men are animals.
Hello Monica!
As you know, I am not trans, though I did live as an unwilling (and somewhat unknowing) FTM for most of my life. Therefore, take my input with a few grains of salt, my perspectives may be skewed, or perhaps universal, depending on context, or personal experience.
First, I always considered myself in my past life to be a lesbian in a man's body. I only found women attractive, and could not fathom why anybody would want a man, or what they saw in a man that was 'hot'. I lived and breathed for a woman's touch only. My particular physiology made performing with women very easy and I was known to be an exceptional lover. I made the best of it, but whenever I found a real connection with a woman, she was usually bi or bi-curious. But the idea of 'same-sex attraction' was foreign to me.
Fast forward to my de-transition, and at first, I became hyper-aware of the limits to the average male's world-view and their apparent inability to connect with others on a personal level. Skip to my second year of HRT, and a rerun of "Thelma and Louise" on TV, and from somewhere out of nowhere, while a very young, six-pack abbed Brad Pitt is doing the nasty with Susan Sarandon, he looked toward the camera, and the angle of his jawline sent a HUGE, unexpected shivver down my spine. I was revolted by my own feelings, but my gf of 16 years, whom I still believed to be my forever soulmate, caught my reaction, and rightly foretold my future. "You are going to start wanting a man, aren't you?", she asked with great pain and anxiety. I denied it, not believing it would ever be possible, of course. Well, the fact was she was right. I broke up with her a while later for very valid reasons concerning her worsening treatment of me, she had become hateful and violent, so she had to go. I was still arrayed with what looked like male parts at the time, and from what I could see, only gay men or bi men were interested in me sexually. I was changing in a place where everybody had known me as 'male', though straight guys with no knowledge of my past had begun treating me very nicely, and had started flirting with me. It was very confusing, very, very confusing!
My gf lost sexual interest in me early on, when my thingy stopped working, but we made love like lesbians anyway, and though I could still please her, she could no longer please me. After the breakup, I was still hugely dysphoric about my parts, so I only dated trans-girls, but the same thing happened, I could please them, but I was getting nothing out of it except companionship and intimacy, but no real ooomph..
I dated a lot of men after I moved away from there, even slept with a few, but never let them do anything 'down there'. It was foolish, and dangerous, but we kept our parts hidden (it was actually only my alters doing this), as I was still in pieces. Once I had my vaginal canal reopened and my vulva reconstructed in Montréal, there was no turning back. I let the man I had been dating for the last 9 months go all the way with me 32 days after surgery, lol, I am laughing now, despite the risks and stitches and pain, but I couldn't wait another second to have him inside me. *blush* He never knew there was anything unusual about me, thank goodness.
So, I too went from being in competition with men, to being repulsed by men, to craving them. Yes, most guys are just guys, and that is a shame, but there are some guys that are very special, and until they see you as desirable beyond the bedroom, they hide their inner beauty from the world. Remember how you felt compelled to interact with the world pre-HRT? Most men only know this reality, and their best nature, if they have one, lol, is reserved for the girls they see as potential mates. Weirdly, I am not only attracted to 'hot' guys, but big, goofy, ugly guys, too. Sometimes the more ogre-like he is, the hotter I get, lol. Softer, more 'sensitive' guys turn me off. I want a man that is a man's man, ya know? Maybe that's just me, I dunno. So, from my perspective, I do best with heterosexual relationships. When living as a 'man', I only wanted women. Now that I am living as I was designed, I only really want a man. I still see women as divinely beautiful, but I feel no urge to be with one sexually. I love their company, and girl's night out is my fav evening of the week, but something about a man, MY man, soothes and stimulates me like no woman can.
Now, onto another topic, you had mentioned wanting to blast guys when they assume you know nothing about cars and guy stuff, right? Well, think that through before you do, because what may happen is that you mightl invalidate yourself as a woman in his eyes, not impress him, or so it has been in my experience. I was better at a lot of man stuff than most men will ever be, but never, ever, has revealing that fact helped me as a woman. If passing is your goal, take the advice given by another girl earlier in this same thread and apply it more broadly; "we don't do that". Any hint of male syntax can betray you. With your wife, this may not matter to you, but out in the world amongst males, it could be a problem. It's not just a female voice that secures passability, it takes 'proper' syntax, vocabulary, and staying with the appropriate topics, too. These are all possible 'tells' for people, men and women alike. Because I am on a gender-safe site, I am enjoying using whatever syntax that pops into my head, but if I were on a knitting site, or hanging out with the guys at a bar in real life, I would limit myself to traditionally female expressions, tones, vocabulary, and topics. It took a long time for me to realize the implications of content as well as manner in communication with other humans, but once I figured it out, my hetero-normalcy stopped coming into question. I know not everybody desires to be seen as hetero-normal, but my original core wiring is to the binary. Left to my own devices, I would have never strayed from a traditionally feminine role or lifestyle, so for me, unlearning every male trait and behavior is of paramount importance. But, your mileage may vary. As an aside, I have never heard a straight, cis woman use that expression, lol, so I should probably say something like "I dunno, maybe that's just me, who knows? Ha!"...
Yeah, I really need to get my act together, and just be the real me now, too. This is my time to shine! No more boy-talk for me, lol! ;-)
You have a lot of changes coming up in your life, Moni, and as somebody else said, "who know what will happen?".
Just be brave, be real, be open, and let yourself be your authentic self. Your wife may be okay with all this, maybe not, but that is for her to decide. What counts in the end is how well you treat each other, and how honest you are with yourselves, and each other, and how much you both grow as people. It will all work out, you'll see!
:-) MissyG
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 10, 2017, 01:35:30 PM
It is often repeated that orientation and being trans are two different things. If you take into account the mind frame of the trans person who has been desperately suppressing their female side only to spring forth looking for validation as a woman.
Does this make sense to anyone else, or am I off base here? I am motivated to understand this because I want to stay with my wife.
You've sort of answered your own question Moni, if you didn't have a wife that you love you might feel different, but you love your wife and want to stay with her.
It makes perfect sense to me validation as a woman. I had zero interest in men before transition, the thoughts of being with a man was eww ugh, but after transition that all change, I don't know why, maybe the way men treated me, a whole change of attitude and just being treated as a woman, very surreal the first time I kiss a man, it was like omg, I'm kissing a man, I'm now married to a man, a straight man that only wants to be with a woman, very reassuring for me as a woman, he is a very supportive husband, it's all down to indivdual experience.
Online there's no pesky male body to get in the way of having a cyber-heterosexual interaction with men, which I used to do since 2005, even before I realized I was trans (but had started reading the website "second type woman" just out of fascination. The rules are different in real life, where I'm socially held back by autism, making me celibate for all practical purposes.
I have noticed I don't relate to my best friend as well. He always wants me to go places, to bad it's Wrestling, Fighting in point Karate competitions - in the male category of course , and playing warhammer games with Beardy Mc Neckbeards.
Good times eh. I remember him and me sparring and getting tossed around like a ragdoll by a fireman who literally weights twice as much as me and ripping the skin off the sole of my foot only to get up and attack again and again. I don't quit dammit.
Quote from: HappyMoni on January 13, 2017, 06:21:07 PM
Tessa,
I am not as far into my adjustment as you are. I am still very frequently running into situations that I have to figure out. I know how to deal with situations with men as a "male." I don't know how to react as myself, as crazy as that sounds. For example, when I am around men who did not know me before, I find myself not keeping eye contact for very long. I kind of act a bit shy. I don't know if this is perceived as flirting, which I have no intention of doing. I am very unsure as to how I am perceived, so I think I get shy. I imagine that maybe this is not too unusual for a newbie like myself. Added to this, I sometimes feel like I am walking a tightrope with my voice. I have had throat issues and it can be a bit unpredictable. Another reason I am shy right now. It's funny but, I am not worried about male bravado. I look forward to it in a way. I want to goof on it or perhaps at least call them on it. The moment someone talks to me like I know nothing about cars or sports or puts women down, I am going to have some fun. I love having the female perspective, I can't wait until I really get my bearings. Anyone have any input on similar experiences or shyness? I wonder how long it takes for this to become old hat.
Monica
Hey Monica,
You're not at all crazy sounding to me. Actually that sounds more typically feminine to be shy or reserved? Just getting a woman's attention is a green light for some guys and all that might entail. I have come to understand much more clearly why so many women don't even bother with simple eye contact. As good as you are looking I would guess simply engaging a guy is enough stimulus to get a motor running. The dating pool has deep and shallow ends right?
You sound really fun to me and I also like to sort of surprise people with being assertive and outspoken. Don't take us/women for granted, we think and act outside the box too! This is one reason I quit my voice lessons. I am transgender and it is easy to figure out. I have found that there are plenty of guys looking for people like us. The more difficult part may be finding someone worthy of your attention and interaction.
While I also like to goof with guys and sometimes toy with people I really don't want to be manipulating people. Having a woman's perspective while having lived as a man offers priceless insights. I like a robust conversation with honest dialogue rather than fawning over a preening persona...too easy and too old.
And what is flirting really? Is being fun, engaging and witty the same as looking for a date? Determining intentions is a big part of the dance...do I hear music?...all the time ;D ;D ;D
You have all, in recent posts, both reassured me and scared the hell out of me. I have some thinking to do. I will address one thing tonight. When I talked about standing up to men for my sports or car knowledge, my intention is not to go all "manly" on them. If they are drowning in their own superiority over females, I will stand up for my gender in my way. I am firmly on this side of the fence now, but have seen how things work on the other side. Because of where I work and live, men generally are pretty well behaved with their attitudes toward woman. Is that naive? Maybe.
Moni
Quote from: Maybebaby56 on January 10, 2017, 05:01:37 PM
This is such an interesting discussion! When I began my transition, I figured I would be a lesbian, because I had zero interest in men as romantic or sexual partners. After a few months on hormones, I noticed men a lot more. I surprised myself on more than one occasion thinking to myself, "That guy is really cute!". It was like, "Wait, who said that?!"
I'm at that point right now. I can't see myself ending up with a guy for much longer than a couple of weeks, just for fun, and I really crave falling in love with a woman. However I've already had that moment of "Wow who's that guy—wait a minute?!??!".
Funniest thing is, I haven't started HRT yet.
Well Monica I'm still pre HRT but I know that backing away from the male positioning has let me see things about myself more clearly.
I do not find men physically attractive, but there is that female instinct that does seem to crave a man in a sexual nature. The idea of what a man does with a woman I find desirable even though the idea of a guy himself I find neutral at best and a bit disgusting at worst. Visually women light up the sexual part of my brain while men do not. I would have to rate myself as bi-curious because those darn female instincts are still there, lol.
If I were fully transitioned and a single person could I see myself being sexual with a man? Yes that would be a possibility, however a woman's touch is far more attractive to me. Either way I need an emotional connection and buildup to think about sex.
Quote from: AnonyMs on January 13, 2017, 11:31:14 PM
I'm slowly tending towards the view that men are animals.
Honey, I've been aware of that my whole life. Transitioning has only solidified this fact. I'm amazed by some of the crap that comes out the mouths of FATHERS, even fathers WITH DAUGHTERS OF THEIR OWN. One of my co workers was bragging BRAGGING once that he wished he raped this girl once because he never got a second date with her! Utterly disgusting. This is someone I used to have something approaching respect for..
But I must be forgetting 'real men' dont talk like this. (When their wives or daughters are around anyway..)
Omg Angela you are so right. Once at a customer location while I was working on a machine, one of the guys there was bragging about how his daughter in her prom dress was doable. But with a more foul way of putting it. That is if you can imagine a much more foul thing to come out of someone's mouth.
Quote from: josie76 on January 16, 2017, 09:48:58 AM
Omg Angela you are so right. Once at a customer location while I was working on a machine, one of the guys there was bragging about how his daughter in her prom dress was doable. But with a more foul way of putting it. That is if you can imagine a much more foul thing to come out of someone's mouth.
Up north with my father once a long time ago, when he still tried to get me involved in GUY things, we stopped to gas up our bikes at a small gas station in the middle of no where. The gas station was a small family owned outfit and their young daughter served us. My own father in his mid to late 50s at this time is full on CREEPING on this poor girl while shes trying to help us. I think he may have even touched her on the lower back, shoulder and rear end. (Perfectly acceptable amirite?) Later back at camp hes bragging about how she was 'into him' and he couldve had her if he wanted.. this girl I would consider was too young for me. My father was, and is, still married to my mother, though he sleeps in front of the tv after staying up to the wee hours watching porn.
There's darkness in everyone. Some hide it better than others.
When our histories are full of horrid examples of 'manhood', it is a natural thing to project this onto all men, if for no other reason than our own self protection.
I felt the same thing most of my life. I felt it more intensely when my femaleness became apparent, and even more when I became vulnerable through E therapy and beginning to dress female.
But, after MUCH therapy, and MUCH self-searching, and then the passage of time, and exposure to men that were not at all like my negative portrait of ALL men inside my mind, I found that I had been mistaken.
It is easy to be a hater. Especially when hateful examples of a type of person are everywhere. It is harder to overcome one's hatred, and harder yet to see that which we constantly refuse to allow to be true.
I know people of all stripes that hate. Many are within the LGBT, and if anybody should know better, it is those of us within a highly discriminated group of people.
All men are not animals, nor dogs, nor rapists, nor horrible people, nor horrible fathers.
If I were a man, I would find such talk disturbing and hateful in its own right.
Good men, honest men, healthy men, men that are prepared to take a bullet for a woman's honor, DO EXIST...
I try to not become that which I despise.
I had a pretty bad day today. I had an issue go badly. I feel about as dysphoric as I have since going fulltime. I have a deep down exhausted feeling that each day I walk among people who can never understand me. I cried much of the afternoon. So, why do I tell you all this? I tell you because I learned or maybe reaffirmed something I already knew. Love is most important. My partner held my hand, she bought me beautiful flowers. When I told her I felt like an idiot, she said go ahead and cry more. If any cis person can "understand," it is her. I started this thread with an observation and some worries about me in relation to men. I don't know if I will crave being the female in a straight sexual situation at some point. GCS is going to be life changing. I do know that my partner is more important than anything like that. To betray the relationship I have, would truly be the death of the person that I am.
I don't regret thinking about these things. Maybe others here have similar concerns. I do have my two cents to put in about grouping people together as good or bad or animals or whatever. I think it is a mistake. I don't want to be judged with all other trans people, or 50 year olds, or brown eyed people or any group. Judge me on me, what I do. I really think people here were more exaggerating for effect than actually thinking all of one group is this or that.
I hope people will continue to explore their feelings about attractions as it is confusing and maybe in flux. Thanks for letting me say my peace.
Moni
Thank you for the mature and sober reflections too. Your partner sounds wonderful, one to cherish!