Susan's Place Transgender Resources

We live in a world with cultures that acknowledge "waves" of feminism and a long history of female subjugation and misogyny.  One of my favorite teachers often refers to author and historian Riane Eisler.  I especially appreciate her considerable work regarding Partnerships and Domination models and systems.  I once thought I was a feminist and familiar with a woman's struggles.  That was before transition.  I consider transgender people may have unique perspectives about feminism.

Now an out transgender woman I realize much more about how personal these struggles for equity and equality can be.  I also realize how much more I do not yet understand.  As we get ready for the multiple Women's Marches January 21st I wonder how other people here feel about our current wave of feminism.  Do you feel part of the movement?  Does misogyny or feminism impact your life?  Are MtF transitioners more likely to feel discrimination as "less than men?"  Do FtM transitioners still feel part of feminism?

Very good thread! I have noticed kinda some misogyny . Or perhaps in the spectrum of it i would fall to the trans-misogyny area. I have been told because i dont act traditionally feminine (even though i am more feminie then masculine, but i am not to extreme in any way) that is why i am not trans apprently .... and have been can ned for being out from jobs.. I think feminism is something that has served the great good for not just women, but everyone through the gender spectrum! It is important though to know a real feminist from a fake. A real feminist is someone who beleives women are equal to men, that they can do what men can and deserve equal treatment. That means equal pay for equal work.That among other things. A fake feminist.. Cathy Brennan

Good call, I could have asked about trans-misogyny too.  Yes, it's a real thing and I too have been called out for not being feminine enough for some tastes.  At times like that i wonder if those who call us out have ever met a cisgender butch or masculine woman?

Well it's no secret there are many feminists out there who reject the idea of that trans women fit into their "category". The millenials have a name for them, they call them TERFs (Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists). For instance, the Women's Liberation Front who recently joined forces with the alt-right Family Policy Alliance to fight against gender equality in a Colorado school bathroom case.  The quote from them was terrible "Gender identity ideology presents a threat to women as a legal category worthy of civil rights protections."

The fact of the matter is Trans issues are feminist issues and vice versa. I think for the most part, feminists see that and are supportive.  However, there are the groups like this that are so hyper focused on their own cause that they forget the goal should be equality.  They've essentially decided that only discrimination against them matters and no one else.

Huff post had a great article on the topic a while back: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/feminist-issues-are-transgender-issues_b_5958012.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/feminist-issues-are-transgender-issues_b_5958012.html)

I'm FTM and I strongly identify as a feminist. From what I've seen and been through, I believe sexism effects all of us, cis or trans, man or woman or  neither or both. Some people just have hateful  ideas when it comes to gender (TERFS, MRAS, all that).

It's a bit frustrating being an FTM feminist because I always get a lot of "Let go of feminism if you transition because it's not what men talk about and you'll get clocked" from people...  which is bull because it's perfectly acceptable for cis men to be feminists but I won't let that get to me; I grew up with very positive female influences in my life and I'll always be grateful for what they taught me. :) I appreciate the experiences living as a woman gave me even if I'm not one anymore. I was a little girl and boy at the same time at  one point of my life and I wish it was something I could just add to my resume lol

I've never actually heard of a FTM who didn't strongly identify as feminist.

The thing about TERFS or Gender Critical Feminists as they like to be called, is that they say men should be femme and wear they want without ridicule and in their own words call the mockery and shame around it part of the patriarchy.

Yet if you go on one of their boards they crucify the appearance of trans women. Some of the things they say are vile. Especially about non passing.

So the reality is when they see men dressed feminine they're cruelly and coldly laughing at them behind their pretenses of support.

I'm an intersectional feminist, have been for a looong time.  TERF arguments just don't make any sense to me.  They all break down into circular reasoning, or false zero-sum games that are easily disproven.  The ideology is just a wrapper to hide old fashioned prejudices behind.  I've seen it before, all the way back to various cloaks for racism back in the mid-20th.

The transgender population has much in common with the women's movement.  Both are a bit marginalized and degraded, by a patriarchy and kyriarchy intent on domination, repression, and submission. Ain't no reason to argue between the groups!


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Personally I am disillusioned with some aspects of "third wave" feminism and identity politics as they stand today. I don't call myself a feminist, no. Not until the movement understands that it could better apply itself to the places that better require its attention and quit railing against people who quite frankly are not against them. Identity politics has become divisive, not constructive.

Let's just say you do not live in a society that "subjugates women" if you have women running for president, or women running the country like in mine; you do not live in a society that hates women when women are the comparatively protected class, the class that the charities and shelters and affirmative action programs and government welfare cares about the most; you do not live in a society that hates women when you have technically more rights and legal consideration in a courtroom than men. Half of this is delusion and grasping - we have run out of things to complain women don't have so we clutch at straws like "mansplaining" and "manspreading", and try to maintain the fiction women are truly despised in the first world. I will believe women are paid less in every dollar than a man when I see men out of work and women in their place because they're cheaper to employ... which would happen if that were the case. The truth of that is women don't earn less on the whole for the same work, they work in different patterns and in different amounts; that story is a twisting of the facts to suit a narrative nobody cares to look into properly to see just where that figure came from.

Until that changes and I see some common sense, I'm not going to call myself a feminist as the term is used today.

Have I seen/experienced misogyny? As in hatred of women? Not personally. Have I ever come up against someone telling me I couldn't do something I wanted to do just 'because woman'? No. Have I seen/experienced hatred of men? Yes. Do I think women have problems too? Absolutely. But they're no more important than the problems faced by men as well. I might have had creeps trying to back me up against walls, but I've had male friends almost killed by people. And one that was killed. By a woman, incidentally. Men are more at risk of physical or deadly violence on the whole. Women more at risk of sexual attack. It sucks for BOTH, but I'd still argue it's better to be sexually harassed or assaulted (and I have been) than murdered.

I'm under no delusions, I can see both sides. Feminism should apply itself in the world where it's truly needed, where women are forced to marry, not permitted to have a career or a vote, or sold like cattle. Where there actually IS something resembling a "Patriarchy" at work. If it continues to attack an agreeable society or to attack men in general for existing, it will succeed only in driving a bigger wedge than there already is between the sexes. And it's already big.

If we live in a woman-hating, woman-oppressing Patriarchy in the West, it's the most impotent, pathetic and benevolent Patriarchy in history.

Those women fighting in places like Africa or the Middle East etc. and putting themselves on the line for their freedoms in places truly hostile to them? That girl who survived being shot in the head for trying to go to school? They have my respect and admiration. That is where feminism is needed now. Not here with someone whining that a guy dared to explain something to them they already happened to know that he probably didn't know they knew and calling a 'report hotline' for it.

Feminism is strongly associated with the political left. The two are synonymous.

Whereas Gender Dysphoria is a psychological/medical condition that's politically indiscriminate.

Feminism politicizes this condition. To many it makes transitioning come across as a political act. Therefore trans people are seen as the result of the actions of the left,  the feminization of men and masculinization of women in the name of feminism. Therefore trans is treated with suspicion. That with feminism has come a ton of "transtrenders" using the trans identity to gain a bigger voice within identity politics.

That way I like Caitlyn Jenner. Trans people should not be assumed to be on the left because of a medical condition. It can affect anyone.

I'd like to point out that a lot of the flaws in third wave feminism are coming from inside- such as classism and racism and ableism. These are also the reasons I believe we still need feminism AND need to improve it.

A wealthy white cis woman is not exactly as "oppressed" as she thinks she is. She can wear all the "THIS IS WHAT A FEMINIST LOOKS LIKE" shirts (made in Bangladesh) she wants and like her friends' #GirlPower Facebook posts as she pleases but she still has her prejudices. She'll still clutch her purse when she sees a black man, she'll still hold her child's hand tighter as they pass by a person with autism who is talking too loud, she'll still feel uncomfortable when she speaks to her coworker who is a trans woman. She'll still get annoyed when hearing her nail technician speak Vietnamese as she gets her nails done. She'll still comment "Why not ALL women?" when she sees a post that says "Black Girls Rock!"

And this wealthy white cis woman is the "face" of feminism. It's a reason why people don't take feminism seriously- they see someone who doesn't seem to have a lot of problems in life as the "face" and assume that  that's all there is to it therefore feminism is meaningless. However, they won't get to hear the message of black feminists, trans feminists, or feminists with disabilities because their voices are blocked out by a prejudiced society who doesn't listen to them in the first place, feminist or not.

For example, I absolutely despise Lena Dunham because she's a racist and she also confessed to sexually abusing her sister. But for some reason, so many feminists adore her. I just can't see why. I really don't think she deserves to be a feminist icon.

Maybe society doesn't exactly straight up hate women, they definitely hate certain kinds of women. I live in an impoverished part of America and people aren't allowed to get abortions here. They have to travel for hours to a big city. Health care is terrible here. I definitely get the feeling Texan politicians "hate" the working class women of color who live here. LGBT rights and resources here are a joke.  It may not be happening to you or the women and people around you, but it's definitely happening to citizens  in this country.

Sorry for typos, I'm on mobile

Quote from: eggbun on January 17, 2017, 09:36:53 PM
It's a bit frustrating being an FTM feminist because I always get a lot of "Let go of feminism if you transition because it's not what men talk about and you'll get clocked" from people...  which is bull because it's perfectly acceptable for cis men to be feminists but I won't let that get to me; I grew up with very positive female influences in my life and I'll always be grateful for what they taught me. :) I appreciate the experiences living as a woman gave me even if I'm not one anymore. I was a little girl and boy at the same time at  one point of my life and I wish it was something I could just add to my resume lol

Wow, I've never heard that. That's crap. Plenty of men are feminists including my dad. If anything, men listen to men more on the subject of feminism than they listen to women so you have an opportunity to influence people. Hell, if you're around men who are saying men aren't feminists, then you have the wrong friends IMO.

If 2nd wave feminism was about the radical notion that women are people then 3rd wave was about the notion that we're all people and should be treated humanely--men, women, children, non binary people, intersex people, gay, straight, bi, other.

TERFs are feminists in name only. All they care about is hate.

Quote from: eggbun on January 17, 2017, 11:48:52 PM
And this wealthy white cis woman is the "face" of feminism. It's a reason why people don't take feminism seriously- they see someone who doesn't seem to have a lot of problems in life as the "face" and assume that  that's all there is to it therefore feminism is meaningless. However, they won't get to hear the message of black feminists, trans feminists, or feminists with disabilities because their voices are blocked out by a prejudiced society who doesn't listen to them in the first place, feminist or not.

For example, I absolutely despise Lena Dunham because she's a racist and she also confessed to sexually abusing her sister. But for some reason, so many feminists adore her. I just can't see why. I really don't think she deserves to be a feminist icon.

Maybe society doesn't exactly straight up hate women, they definitely hate certain kinds of women. I live in an impoverished part of America and people aren't allowed to get abortions here. They have to travel for hours to a big city. Health care is terrible here. I definitely get the feeling Texan politicians "hate" the working class women of color who live here. LGBT rights and resources here are a joke.  It may not be happening to you or the women and people around you, but it's definitely happening to citizens  in this country.

Sorry for typos, I'm on mobile

In media, the owners literally pass over talented women of color to elevate young white women. It happened at Jezebel, the "feminist" blog. Lena Dunham, who got a leg up by being very, very privileged, literally white washed her world in Girls, making a world that actually had people of color in it all white in fiction.

I like to bring up Amanda Marcotte, a well known feminist blogger who has had a lot of issues blogging on black white race relations. Although she's gotten better she's kind of the archetypical clueless white woman on race. And she considers herself a liberal.

The last few years starting with the death of Trayvon Martin have been a bit of a wake up call in how white Americans perceive Black Americans, including people who consider themselves liberal Democrats. Despite movements like Black Lives Matter the media has still not cleaned up its act (never mind the police) in how it depicts African Americans and other ethnic groups who aren't considered white. This is what #oscarssowhite was about.

2nd wave and 3rd wave included feminists of color but that doesn't mean white 2nd and 3rd wavers were always listening. I know in the 80s it was common to list all your axes of privilege but that was about as deep as the introspection went. A lot of 2nd wave work was ethnocentric, homophobic and transphobic.

Quote from: Kylo on January 17, 2017, 11:08:34 PM
Let's just say you do not live in a society that "subjugates women" if you have women running for president, or women running the country like in mine; you do not live in a society that hates women when women are the comparatively protected class, the class that the charities and shelters and affirmative action programs and government welfare cares about the most; you do not live in a society that hates women when you have technically more rights and legal consideration in a courtroom than men. Half of this is delusion and grasping - we have run out of things to complain women don't have so we clutch at straws like "mansplaining" and "manspreading", and try to maintain the fiction women are truly despised in the first world. I will believe women are paid less in every dollar than a man when I see men out of work and women in their place because they're cheaper to employ... which would happen if that were the case. The truth of that is women don't earn less on the whole for the same work, they work in different patterns and in different amounts; that story is a twisting of the facts to suit a narrative nobody cares to look into properly to see just where that figure came from.

You know, I think you're swimming in misogyny and just can't see it. Hilary Clinton was utterly demonized and despised, for the crime of ... nothing. She did nothing. Except be female. That's misogyny that's as plain as the nose on your face. (I'm not saying it's the only reason she lost, I'm saying it was out and proud during the whole campaign, though.)

Mansplaining is not grasping at straws, it's an accurate description of what happens to qualified, accomplished women who happen to be feminine too. Any old guy suddenly thinks he can explain stuff to her--sometimes even her own work!

Julia Serrano came up with a word to describe society's phobia of effeminate men, effemmimania. I'd say it stems from society's disdain and even loathing for feminine women. Women are in a double bind, contempt if you're feminine, contempt if you're masculine (although career wise being masculine was a smooth move for me).

Having gone from female to male, even total strangers take me more seriously. I think it's the deeper voice. I'm also free of the constant casual disrespect that women get in public. I know misogyny is real, I've experienced it. But it's not just a hatred of women, it's a  hatred of femininity. Even 2nd wave feminism couldn't get past that and hated on femininity as well. They treated anyone who was feminine as if they were brainwashed and working for the enemy instead of contending that there might be something worthy and valuable about a trait so many are just born with. This is why 2nd wave was set up to hate MTFs, why they challenge these notions that masculine is just "normal" and feminine is "slave mentality". I think once you understand there are two axes, male and female, masculine and feminine, the way in which misogyny colonizes our own minds and plays out in front of us comes into focus.

Quote from: eggbun on January 17, 2017, 09:36:53 PMit's perfectly acceptable for cis men to be feminists

It should be, but in my experience, it isn't. 

A man who admits to feminist thinking is assumed by other men to be gay.  They use homophobia to enforce fem-phobia.  Militant feminist women will not accept feminist men as allies.  I remember, after the Montreal Massacre in 1989, when I expressed my shock and horror that 14 women were murdered for being female, I was told that, as a man, I could feel nothing.  No wonder men don't express feelings when that is the response they get.

Maybe my experience is not relevant, since, as it turns out, I was not a cis man.  But they didn't know that.  The assumed I was a cis man, and that is how feminist cis men are treated.

I certainly can't improve on what axietydisorder has said above.

Wealthy white women do not have a monopoly on stupidity, the reality that women have it worse in some parts of Africa or the middle East in no way invalidates the need to eliminate misogyny wherever one lives.

Feminist thinking runs on average to the left, sure. This hasn't kept mainstream feminism from undertaking some alliances with the right when it suited their mutual agendas.

I've seen mtf trans people try to enter the feminist arena, mansplaining their way and wondering why that didn't work. I've been that girl myself and if I'm accepted as feminine by my peers (both male and female) today, that's certainly in part from a long time spent letting go of the ways I used to wield privilege. I gained acceptance long ago by reaching out and listening more than I talked and I can point to some things that changed locally in part due to those efforts.

Change comes slowly and sometimes the groundswell of change isn't perceptible.

Quote from: AnxietyDisord3r on January 18, 2017, 06:53:34 AM
You know, I think you're swimming in misogyny and just can't see it.

No. I am not. It certainly is telling how some people see an opinion that doesn't immediately gel with their own and label it misogynist. Did you read the last paragraph of my post? How do you arrive at the opinion I am swimming in hatred of women?

QuoteHilary Clinton was utterly demonized and despised, for the crime of ... nothing. She did nothing. Except be female. That's misogyny that's as plain as the nose on your face. (I'm not saying it's the only reason she lost, I'm saying it was out and proud during the whole campaign, though.)

And you could say Donald Trump is despised a whole lot more than she is. She's a presidential candidate. They both came in for enormous amounts of hate, adoration, criticism. Neither of them are innocent either. The vast majority of the dislike for Clinton I saw came not from the fact she was female, but because of the rumors of the DNC fixing her place as candidate. Or from her hawkish stance on Syria. Or her insistence on seeking further conflict with Russia rather than pursuing a diplomatic approach. Or her screw-up with the email server. Or the handling of the Libyan embassy and the "removal" of Gaddafi. In fact have yet to see someone rail on Clinton "because she is a woman". 

And Trump? He had plenty of disgust, hate, laughter thrown his way too. And he complained about it. Which is ludicrous because what did he expect.

QuoteMansplaining is not grasping at straws, it's an accurate description of what happens to qualified, accomplished women who happen to be feminine too. Any old guy suddenly thinks he can explain stuff to her--sometimes even her own work!

This is the definition of a first-world problem. Someone explained something to me I already knew. Stop the press.

Not only is it ridiculous - I've had people explain things to me as both female and male that I already knew and I didn't pop a blood vessel from indignation, in fact I said "yeah I know," and furthered the conversation with my knowledge - but people honestly think this is some sort of problem? People actually believe conversations now need to policed or that conversations of this type equal some sort of hatred and need to be punished? Do you see how if you begin doing this men will not even want to speak to women, if they run the risk of a misogyny label if it "comes out the wrong way"? How is this going to realistically improve gender relations? How about you accept that you can't control what every single person says and they aren't going to say things you like all of the time? It beats the 1984-esque nightmare some people out there seem to be trying to craft.

QuoteJulia Serrano came up with a word to describe society's phobia of effeminate men, effemmimania. I'd say it stems from society's disdain and even loathing for feminine women. Women are in a double bind, contempt if you're feminine, contempt if you're masculine (although career wise being masculine was a smooth move for me).

Or how about its contempt for men's freedom? If society truly had a phobia of women and femininity, women wouldn't have the freedom to express it that they do - they would be forced to act like men and the femininity would be beaten out of them as it tends to be out of men. It's not that society hates the feminine, it's that it does not tolerate men's freedom to express. It is men whom society wants to beat and purge things out of. Not women. 

QuoteHaving gone from female to male, even total strangers take me more seriously. I think it's the deeper voice. I'm also free of the constant casual disrespect that women get in public. I know misogyny is real, I've experienced it. But it's not just a hatred of women, it's a  hatred of femininity. Even 2nd wave feminism couldn't get past that and hated on femininity as well. They treated anyone who was feminine as if they were brainwashed and working for the enemy instead of contending that there might be something worthy and valuable about a trait so many are just born with. This is why 2nd wave was set up to hate MTFs, why they challenge these notions that masculine is just "normal" and feminine is "slave mentality". I think once you understand there are two axes, male and female, masculine and feminine, the way in which misogyny colonizes our own minds and plays out in front of us comes into focus.

I know how it works, but you seem to be only convinced of one side of the story. People take you more seriously now, great. You don't get harassed in the street, great. But are you permitted to wear a dress without funny looks or harassment? Are you allowed to express your emotions as much without people getting uncomfortable? Are you allowed to screw up as often? Do you think thugs would go as easy on you if they decided to pick on you? Do people accept your depression and sadness and comfort you as easily as they might if you looked female? If you committed a crime would they give you more or less time in the slammer than a woman? If a woman falsely accused you of raping her, whose side do you think they would take first? If she falsely accused you of beating her, do you think they would automatically take your side? If you had children and were divorced do you think the children would more likely go to you or the mother? Do you think you have any rights when it comes to someone's pregnancy and the fate of your unborn child? Because as a man, you don't. Do you think people would look more favorably on you now than a woman if they saw you sitting on the street homeless? Do you think people would more likely come to your aid if they saw you in trouble, or injured, or would they be more likely to go help a woman? Are you going to be seen as more or less disposable in people's eyes now? Yes. You know the answers.

A lot of feminists are absolutely convinced the only answer to all of these things is that our society hates women. It's a lot more complex than that. I can show you societies that actually treat women no better than dirt. This isn't one of them.

Yah. As a male I was considered a technical leader in my field.  I'm MtF, now full time female and starting to do lectures and presentations again

Now I get handwaved off.  I've had matters I am an expert on mansplained to me. My opinion on technical issues has been ignored in conversation.

The only change is my presentation as female. I didn't suddenly turn stupid.

Don't even try to tell me that we have gender equality.



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I've always been a feminist, ever since I started running into gender policing as a small child.  It was a while before I knew the word, but I already bristled when people insisted that boys and men didn't cook or do laundry or change diapers.  (Maybe because I saw my Dad doing that stuff, too.  Well, I didn't see the diaper changing until my baby sister was born.)

In fact, I would say that "feminist" (and "techie") are my fundamental identities; for me, "man" or "woman" are simply descriptions of rather superficial and changeable aspects of me.  And up until 3 years ago, it never occurred to me that I might be transgender, and it still isn't my identity, it's just my life.

This doesn't mean I haven't had a lot to learn, particularly regarding systemic racism, sexism, etc.  And I'm still learning.  E.g., at one time, I thought it might be reasonable for the Michigan Women's Music Festival to exclude trans women.  (What changed my mind: (a) getting to know real trans women and (b) finding out what actually goes on there from a friend who went.)

I don't know if I can honestly say whether it's "okay" for men to be feminists.  I certainly was one, back when I was a man, but I didn't care whether people thought it was okay: most people, including most male people, thought I was not okay from the get-go, so spouting feminist views couldn't really make me any less okay.

I have noticed the phenomenon of the "male feminist" who seems to be feminist mainly to get women to fawn on  him (and let him into their knickers :( -- though he's not above a little rape, too.)  I can think of the names of a few prominent ones.  I've been trying to listen more and mouth off less, if only so I won't be seen as one of them.  (It doesn't come easy, believe me!)

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 18, 2017, 08:34:32 AM
Yah. As a male I was considered a technical leader in my field.  I'm MtF, now full time female and starting to do lectures and presentations again

Now I get handwaved off.  I've had matters I am an expert on mansplained to me. My opinion on technical issues has been ignored in conversation.

The only change is my presentation as female. I didn't suddenly turn stupid.

Don't even try to tell me that we have gender equality.



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Yeah, that's horrible. That's something separate from the idea of "mansplaining" I see around.

When a feminist explains "mansplaining" to me it's usually that a man explaining something to a woman she may already know is him "assuming" her inferiority on a topic. When it could actually be perfectly innocent. The assumption there on the feminist part is his insidious intentions. In fact I've have countless conversations in which someone assumed I didn't know something about a topic and said "hey did you know......." either because they thought they were the only one who knew or because they were a huge nerd on the topic and couldn't help reeling off the info. As a man or a woman, it has happened to me and I don't find it the worst problem facing humanity but a conversational hazard. As it's being thrown around at the moment the term is being used not just in work situations but *every conceivable situation*, even down to a man just making basic conversation with somebody while waiting for a train. At that point I find it ridiculous, as it's becoming something of a joke. Oh he mansplained something to me earlier... in other words, he opened his mouth. Seems to be entering popular culture now as a word for a man just talking.

Not valuing a woman's contribution in her workplace is a different matter and one I would take seriously. A man effectively saying "I will not listen to you" on a professional subject because his coworker is female is bullheaded sexism and something I would take seriously. A man explaining something someone doesn't want to hear can be ignored and is not automatically some aggressive, woman-hating act. We all hear rubbish from people's mouths and keyboards we don't particularly want to know every day. It's a fact of life. 

If we're going to enter an era in which I have to stop before talking to a woman and agonize over whether or not she might already know what I'm about to say, and whether she is going to report me for misogyny for it, then they can keep it. Because that sounds just like a reversal of the era in which women were "seen and not heard". And that's not a solution.

Rather than try and fail to police conversations, perhaps a social push for male and female workers to exchange ideas in their workplace in a neutral official setting would be of greater benefit. In my experience men can come to respect women as much as men if they have the opportunity to see her shine. The problem is that opportunity if not made to happen usually doesn't. But nobody - either male or female - typically respects someone if they're just ordered to respect them. That's why this man-shaming and attacking of men isn't going to make them respect women, it's going to make them fear and despise them. You can't force respect. But you can force situations in which respect can be forged.

Quote from: Kylo on January 18, 2017, 09:03:58 AM
Yeah, that's horrible. That's something separate from the idea of "mansplaining" I see around.

When a feminist explains "mansplaining" to me it's usually that a man explaining something to a woman she may already know is him "assuming" her inferiority on a topic. When it could actually be perfectly innocent.

Innocent?  He's explaining a topic TO ME, one that I was brought in as a lecturer on, in the course of my giving a presentation on the subject.

I've got 19 patents and published papers, which is why I'm there at that lectern.  Now, someone who made the effort to enroll in that session and attend has decided to explain how my own inventions work, to ME, the inventor.

That's mansplaining at it's finest.  Situationally it is obviously wrong.  Yet the assumption of inferiority runs so deep that it completely overrides what should be obvious to anyone with a hint of self-awareness.

Quote
The assumption there on the feminist part is his insidious intentions. In fact I've have countless conversations in which someone assumed I didn't know something about a topic and said "hey did you know......." either because they thought they were the only one who knew or because they were a huge nerd on the topic and couldn't help reeling off the info.

It's not really anything to do with conscious intentions.  It is just a low level cultural assumption, so ingrained in the male consciousness that female persons are assumed to be relatively unskilled in the 'manly' arts of technology and need things explained to them.  He didn't intend to try and make me feel inferior.  He simply did it because it is how women are to be treated, a cultural behavior actualized at a preconscious level.

It actually takes an effort to override these low level learned behaviors and treat a female person as an equal.  That's just sad, and something that needs to be addressed at a cultural level.

In a situation where that conscious effort can't be readily made, as in an emergency, the assumption that a female person is relatively unskilled can be dangerous, leading to vital information being ignored. 

Consider a nuclear power plant.  There is a steam leak and a radiation alarm.  A female engineer points out that a certain coolant relief valve is prone to failing open, and can be readily isolated.  She is ignored by the male engineers.   Welcome to Three Mile Island.



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The backlash against the term mansplaining is because it's often used as a silencing tactic by the feminist in arguments. 

Even Wonder Woman is in on it! http://www.the-medium-is-not-enough.com/images/SC30_20.jpg

QuoteA lot of feminists are absolutely convinced the only answer to all of these things is that our society hates women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRquPxdHNGE

QuoteA man who admits to feminist thinking is assumed by other men to be gay.

Nah it's more like he's assumed to be sinking to the lowest denominator in selling out his own gender order to get laid by feminist women.

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 18, 2017, 09:28:10 AM
Innocent?  He's explaining a topic TO ME, one that I was brought in as a lecturer on, in the course of my giving a presentation on the subject.

I've got 19 patents and published papers, which is why I'm there at that lectern.  Now, someone who made the effort to enroll in that session and attend has decided to explain how my own inventions work, to ME, the inventor.

Did you tell him that? Have you mentioned it to his superiors? If he's of no consequence to your work, how much does it affect you? Or is he your boss and it does affect you? Can you go over his head and ignore him? Because if it seriously hinders the impact of your work then yes it is a problem. If he's an annoying fly who can be disregarded, then ...disregard him?

My mother is a professional scientific lecturer and researcher never seemed to be hindered by older men around her. She's small and unimposing to look at. If this mansplaining is as rife as they claim she must have dealt with it somehow.

By the way I was referring to a general sense of what people have explained it to me as, not to your situation directly.

QuoteThat's mansplaining at it's finest.  Situationally it is obviously wrong.  Yet the assumption of inferiority runs so deep that it completely overrides what should be obvious to anyone with a hint of self-awareness.

Yeah it is, but my point is that unless it actually hinders one's progress, listening to idiots is going to happen in all areas of life. Hearing things we don't want to hear and dealing with people we don't like is to some degree unavoidable and un-policeable. You're talking specifically about workplaces it seems. I'm talking about how "mansplaining" has crept out of the workplace definition and into pretty much all social contexts now.

Quote
It actually takes an effort to override these low level learned behaviors and treat a female person as an equal.  That's just sad, and something that needs to be addressed at a cultural level.

Agreed, and it is being. 60-70 years ago women weren't present in boardroom meetings at all. Female bosses were rare. It's not there yet but it IS changing. Might take a few generations to pass on but it will.

Quote from: JMJW on January 17, 2017, 10:12:49 PM
I've never actually heard of a FTM who didn't strongly identify as feminist.

It's nice to meet you :)

Late 20's FTM. I did not consider myself a feminist before transitioning, and I do not consider myself a feminist now.

I think the feminism of the past had meaning and purpose. I don't believe that is the case currently regarding modern, western feminism which I believe is the topic Tessa was specifically inquiring about. You can say what you want about certain ideas being a minority or people misinterpreting or stretching facts to meet their individual agendas, but on the whole I don't see this current wave of feminism working toward anything worthwhile.

If anything, I see it as divisive. How often do you see these feminists standing up for or supporting conservative women? How often do you see these feminists caring about women who are not white and American/European? How often do you see these feminists expressing concern for male victims of sexual assault or domestic violence?

Perhaps those voices are being silenced by others who speak too loudly, but those are a few of my concerns about modern feminism and generally why I won't associate with it. Nothing really to do with my gender or that has been influenced by transitioning. If anything, my politics play a greater role in my feelings about feminism than my gender. This article is a few years old, but explains essentially where I'm at http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/are-feminism-and-libertarianism-compatible (http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/are-feminism-and-libertarianism-compatible).

I greatly appreciate the feedback and diverse perspectives posted here.  You are helping to educate me and I need that.  The experiences i have had as an out trans woman suggest some levels of assumption based purely on appearances.  I am now seemingly less capable, warned to be careful and am seen as prey when just walking down the street.

Being transgender has a major learning curve I am still figuring out.  I must also acknowledge my privilege, years in a bubble and too many years of ignorance regarding race and class.  I will be part of the local Women's March this weekend and feel grateful for reading about your often passionately felt ideas.  Very stimulating.  Thank you.

I totally feel the movement and it is exciting. That platform put fourth by the DC organizers is one that i am in 100% agreement with.

I will be there marching and participating in other ways. This country came close to an ERA in the 1970s and we will get there again with my generation and younger.

Equal rights for all. No patriarchy. Misogyny is not acceptable in public life. Feminism simply means equal rights, if anyone feels threatened by that, the only advice i can give is become unthreatened.

Quote from: JMJW on January 18, 2017, 09:43:59 AM
The backlash against the term mansplaining is because it's often used as a silencing tactic by the feminist in arguments. 

Exactly. It's gone entirely beyond the idea of workplace bigotry.

Awesome exchanges!

It was a privilege reading through all of your input and responses and I am better for having done so.

Thank you.

Being a very feminine woman with much past access to unfiltered male conversation has also been a privilege. I have known very masculine men, men that are respected by men, to be spot on concerning women's rights and their equality and value. I have also known feminine gay men that hated on feminine women with a ferocity that still makes me sick to my stomach. As a pseudo-male, I also knew 'feminist' women that assumed me to be the enemy merely because they assumed I had a penis.

My point?

My point is, though my own experiences have been highly varied, I still have no way to actually form a statistically correct assessment of any particular group of people. I just have the impressions that my own experiences, shaded by my own prejudices, and limited by that which I cannot know, afford me.

If I know anything, it is that I do not know everything.

Do I consider myself to be a feminist? Sometimes.

Do I support the notion that all humans should be afforded equal rights? Yes.

Do I think I sometimes benefit from being seen as a feminine, white, educated woman? Yes.

Do I think I am sometimes penalized for being seen as a feminine, white, educated woman? Yes.

Did I experience firsthand that which is now called 'Male Privilege' in my past? Yes.

Do I still experience that which is now called 'White Privilege'? Yes.

Do I think I sometimes experience some kind of female privilege? Yes.

Do I think I sometimes experience some kind of 'pretty girl' privilege? Yes.

Am I annoyed when I am seen by some as a second-class citizen due to my womanhood? Yes.

Do I feel victimized by any of the above? No.

I just feel lucky to be able to be me in a diverse world where so much opportunity and such a wealth of information is at my fingertips.

The 21st Century has been very good to me so far.

Missy

Quote from: JMJW on January 18, 2017, 09:43:59 AM
The backlash against the term mansplaining is because it's often used as a silencing tactic by the feminist in arguments.

I've seen the word used a lot, and I haven't seen it used as a "silencing tactic."  Michelle_P's example is very close to the original example in the blog post "Men Explain things to me."

It is rather common, though, for bros to come into feminist discussion groups and proceed to tell them why their experiences didn't actually happen.  E.g.: Kylo's response to Michelle_P's example.  Michelle was there, Kylo wasn't, but he knows more than she about it.  At some point, the feminists want to just tell the bro to shut up, and sometimes they do.  Since, as Michelle points out, the bros aren't conscious of their assumption that they know more than the women they're talking to, they get all offended.  Like white people when POC point out their unconscious racism.  "What, me sexist?  Never!!"

Where it gets priceless is when bros lecture feminists about what mansplaining "really is."  Mansplaining mansplaining.

P.S.: we had one of these AMAB guys with the unshakeable, unconscious, innate sense of superiority show up at one of our trans support groups.  He paid no attention to what the moderator (a trans man) said, but finally shut up when I (AMAB) complained to him about his behavior.  They're everywhere.  Fortunately, he hasn't shown up since.

Are you femsplaining on me, Asche?  :P

Fact is, I'm not just a "bro". I have been there and experienced exactly what women do. You can't dismiss my experiences like any other "bro's". I don't know all about about Michelle's workplace and I never said I did, I said I was talking about the term's use in general, as JMWJ illustrated example of, and in terms of talking about the workplace:

I want people to make the distinction between real harmful harassment, and a guy yapping when a woman doesn't like it. One is serious, the other is not. If Michelle's workplace issue is serious, then ofc I'd have no problem with her assessment of it. If it's just some inconsequential guy being a jerk, I would rather we all learn to dismiss those things, rather than make them out to be a serious problem in need of social engineering. Workplaces have jerks. What worries me is that people have begun to think you can throw the term mansplaining around to cover just about everything... like you just did there. I'm a man so of course I can't have any valid input on feminism, huh. Even though I used to be a woman.

Quote from: FTMax on January 18, 2017, 10:21:38 AM

I think the feminism of the past had meaning and purpose. I don't believe that is the case currently regarding modern, western feminism which I believe is the topic Tessa was specifically inquiring about. You can say what you want about certain ideas being a minority or people misinterpreting or stretching facts to meet their individual agendas, but on the whole I don't see this current wave of feminism working toward anything worthwhile.

If anything, I see it as divisive. How often do you see these feminists standing up for or supporting conservative women? How often do you see these feminists caring about women who are not white and American/European? How often do you see these feminists expressing concern for male victims of sexual assault or domestic violence?

Of course I'm  sensitive to these realities. Perhaps specifically with regard to conservative women, to the extent they are people who would repeal roe v Wade we would disagree.

The same goes for my friends who are feminists - of course I'm not inclined to make friends who aren't open minded.

As for the various phases of the movement, of course it's never been all knowing, I would differ with you on the relative validity of the 3 waves being discussed (and I've been there to experience them personally) however that's not the point.

No movement, political philosophy, religion etc has a lock on truth or stupidity.

Kylo, I think I'd femsplain it more like, "Your training is complete.  The Way of the Bro is strong in this one."  ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well for what it's worth Michelle, I hope you can stick it to that guy at your workplace. He sounds like an ass in need of some schooling himself. Or someone who can't retire soon enough.

I just want everyone to not get too het up and crazy and lose sight of sense. Of course I think I'm justified in my righteous cause.  ;)

Quote from: Asche on January 18, 2017, 01:49:38 PM
I've seen the word used a lot, and I haven't seen it used as a "silencing tactic."  Michelle_P's example is very close to the original example in the blog post "Men Explain things to me."

It is rather common, though, for bros to come into feminist discussion groups and proceed to tell them why their experiences didn't actually happen.  E.g.: Kylo's response to Michelle_P's example.  Michelle was there, Kylo wasn't, but he knows more than she about it.  At some point, the feminists want to just tell the bro to shut up, and sometimes they do.  Since, as Michelle points out, the bros aren't conscious of their assumption that they know more than the women they're talking to, they get all offended.  Like white people when POC point out their unconscious racism.  "What, me sexist?  Never!!"

Agreed. Mansplaining is so common everywhere. Is pointing it out a tactic? Sure it is because it needs to stop.

I believe that many people's intentions are better than their behavior, but there seems to be this innate sort of defense mechanism for privilege that many people don't realize they are using.

Let it go as the song goes. Unfair power and privilege are overrated and not worth the costs to maintain.

Quote from: Asche on January 18, 2017, 01:49:38 PM
I've seen the word used a lot, and I haven't seen it used as a "silencing tactic."  Michelle_P's example is very close to the original example in the blog post "Men Explain things to me."

I'm talking from experience as well though.

I actually remember the last time a male feminist accused me of "mansplaining". Because I proved that Hermoine can't be interpreted as black if one actually reads the description in Harry Potter.

A discussion only tangentially related to feminism. 

http://fantasy-faction.com/forum/writers-corner/executive-meddling-changing-your-character's-race-and-gender/msg151430/#msg151430

Reply no 35.

my favorite part of this whole (very!) troll-like conversation is the man-splaining involved in which an unpublished nobody is presuming to tell the 11th most best selling fiction author of ALL TIME how her characters aren't iconic and she's lying about how her characters look because, you know, race-swapping.


In order to avoid the evidence and the debate:

Quote from: TBM on August 29, 2016, 04:44:07 AM

    Watch the video.


i did.

well.  the first 2 minutes.  that's all i could handle.

It reminds me of 'Modern dogma and the Rhetoric of ascent', and the outcome will be the same - apathy, distrust and bitterness.

I also believe that it is a prime example of 'divide et imperia' or 'divide ut regnes'. The longer the debate, the greater the dilution of the force to change.


Sno

Quote from: KathyLauren on January 18, 2017, 07:25:36 AM
It should be, but in my experience, it isn't. 

A man who admits to feminist thinking is assumed by other men to be gay.  They use homophobia to enforce fem-phobia.  Militant feminist women will not accept feminist men as allies.  I remember, after the Montreal Massacre in 1989, when I expressed my shock and horror that 14 women were murdered for being female, I was told that, as a man, I could feel nothing.  No wonder men don't express feelings when that is the response they get.

Maybe my experience is not relevant, since, as it turns out, I was not a cis man.  But they didn't know that.  The assumed I was a cis man, and that is how feminist cis men are treated.

True this is a very good point. Now that I think about it, it's more acceptable for male celebrities to "come out" as feminists than an average person. But then again, like I said, a lot of the problems with feminism are problems rooted in classism (and racism)

Quote from: Asche on January 18, 2017, 01:49:38 PMAt some point, the feminists want to just tell the bro to shut up, and sometimes they do.  Since, as Michelle points out, the bros aren't conscious of their assumption that they know more than the women they're talking to, they get all offended.  Like white people when POC point out their unconscious racism.  "What, me sexist?  Never!!"

The problem with this is the idea that someone can't/shouldn't have input on a topic because of what's between their legs.

Didn't we just leave that party?

I don't exactly believe too much in accusing just anyone of "mansplaining" however I think it happens often like in fandom. A fan who is a woman might find herself being accused of being a poser and a fake fan or may be suddenly lectured on the whole story and lore of her interest (ie Star Wars) while fans who are men will just give each other high fives and assume that they are all very educated on the topic. (plot twist: the woman is one of the people behind the Star Wars convention this fake scenario is taking place in  :laugh: ).

It's not wrong to explain things to others, but it's wrong to assume that just because someone is a woman that they don't know their stuff.

We could point to innumerable episodes of harmful sexist behavior till the cows come home and still find more happening the next day.  Rather than chronicle or complain we can also, even simultaneously, use our talents for finding out what works better?  I am very grateful that we are hearing from diverse points of view here.  I appreciate people speaking up and having a voice for justice.

The reason I mentioned Riane Eisler is because she offers models and systems of partnership and cooperation that were likely in use during our prewritten human history/herstory;)  She has significant research to back her theories.  It seems we really have been exposed on a mass scale to examples of domination systems for a few thousand years.  My life seems to have been learning about and experiencing never ending warfare.  Prior to these epochs people lived a more peaceful, cooperative and partnership oriented life.  I am not suggesting we get back to some garden of eden but we can move the conversation forward with shared effort.  We are creative and flexible and we can create a better future starting today.  Glad to be with you on the ride. ;D

Intersectional feminsim is where its at and is very much still needed in today's society.

We need to build bridges and understand one another more.

To see why pointing sexism out continually is important, look no further than the history of public racism. It too is a never ending battle, but many of the strides made in how we communicate about race, have been because people have been called out, embarrassed and felt public pressure to reform. This of course causes backlash as we have seen. The "un-PC" crowd out there is one of these, but overall progress continues.

Sexism is no different. Some see a high degree of value to themselves personally in maintaining inequality. Once they see that it does not pay, then things change.

Yes, but when will it stop? When they have equality? Or are they going to try to police opinions and thoughts too until there is only a hive mind and 100% conformity of opinion.

It's getting to the point in my country most rights and freedoms ARE already won for other races and the genders. What are they doing now? Trying to criminalize deviant opinions or shame whoever doesn't belong to a minority, apparently. Until everyone behaves in the same vanilla non-offensive manner I suppose?

There needs to be an end goal, a point at which you stop and realize you have what you set out to do, and then just maintain it. The current mode of intersectional feminism seems to think it has to cram just about every minority and perceived oppressed group under its wing is if it belongs there, and turn it all into a cultural Marxist battle of "oppressed versus oppressor", and probably won't rest until everyone is divided and convinced they are victims of something. To do that you need an enemy to point the finger at, you need to invent an oppressor even if there isn't one, and that's what they've been doing to different aspects of society, even where it isn't deserved. The spirit and intention is good, but ultimately I don't see it ending well unless you know when it is appropriate to stop.

That's probably my last word on the most modern incarnation of feminism I see around me. It seems very belligerent and lacking tangible goals, as they just keep moving the goalposts. It has alienated me.

One of the groups I work with is The Harbor, our local Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault prevention and response folks.  The reorganization several years ago was, in part, to include LGBTQ people and males who face these problems too.  Rather than simply thoughts and opinions, we see real damage to people that can often be attributed to primitive sexism.  Some people have no regard for consent and seem to feel entitled to take what they want from someone they consider weak or inferior.  We are talking about most (not all) victims being women and children.

I suggest we have a very long way to go before we worry about when to stop working for equity and equality.  When one out of three women/girls are still the victims of domestic violence or sexual assault we have a long way to go before mutual respect is the general tenor of culture.  Attitudes and words do matter and we are called to account in the public sphere. 

Feminists and others have called me out for words as common as "guys" when used in reference to a mixed group and that's OK as we are not all guys and I want to treat people with respect at every opportunity.  It may be uncomfortable to learn this way but it's part of growing and building those bridges.

Femme idenified people are simply valued less than what society considers masculine. If a man and women did the same work, her job would be scrutinized more for the same job. It doesn't matter how great her job is, she would need to work twice as hard to get recognized.
In being reconized as feminists I heard that plenty of  times and formed in my childhood. i never liked the idea of masculinity being favored over feminity. Whos the god that says one is better than the other.

QuoteFeminists and others have called me out for words as common as "guys" when used in reference to a mixed group

The overenthusiastic feminist fresh out of gender studies. :laugh:

  "Hi guys."

*pinches nose* Well actually, there are more than guys here.  Erasing non male identifying persons reinforces sexist power structures. Check your privilege.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1BfF77Pvio

I don't get this "women aren't valued" stuff. Women are definitely valued. Men less so. 

If femininity wasn't valued, why is it that men are expendable and women are considered more worthy of protecting? If society is so in love with men, why is it that nobody cares what happens to them, if they get hurt/die/murdered/homeless/washed up? Men are so "loved" they don't have any intrinsic value of their own just by virtue of being men. They have to go out and do something and make themselves useful before anybody gives a flying one about them. Unlike women, who are valued in a sense just for being women without necessarily having to do anything to prove themselves.

There's two sides to that coin and nobody likes to look at the underside of it - that is, women may not have the "prestige" typically afforded men who have proven themselves for something, but society obviously cares more about womens' safety and wellbeing than mens', cares more about providing for them if they need help. Generally cares more about their existence. Women care more about other women than men, and men care more about women than they do men. It's just the natural set-up that women are biologically more valuable than men, and society reflects it.

Not complaining, it's just a fact. I see it around me every day.

When people say men have it all... they're forgetting the rest of the deal they get by being men. Society's got a long way to go to break that biological paradigm, and maybe it never will. It'd be nice if it acknowledged women could have just as much of value to contribute other than the ideal of femininity and encouraged that. And it'd be nice if it actually cared about men.

Sure I understand when people say "women aren't valued" what they are probably getting at. Like they want women to be valued in every possible way. But don't forget the rest of it. It's only fair if women get that, that men get it too.

Though I think it'll be a cold day in hell we get that.

What you see around you every day is subject to change. I understand what you are saying and there were times that i shared some of those same thoughts, but equality has a definite set of measurements that simply are not met. These include but are not limited to; wage gap, sexual harassment and assault danger, access to health care, hiring and job equality, simple and basic legal protections in many states, reproductive rights, and more.

This is not to say that men have it easy, they do not. Being a human is hard in general but we should be on the exact same plane of hard, the exact same starting point. This is not to say women are not valued and supported in society, they are from many parts of our society. Feminism to me is striving for that simple equality and not giving in until it is attained. You can call that idealistic and yep plenty of society makes jest of that, but it it what it is.

Forced change and terms like social engineering and Marxism are always used by those who don't want change as ways to maintain a status quo that they benefit from. They also decry it as "division" when of course the existing division that favors them is just hunky dory. I encourage anyone to read Marx he is not a boogyman, maybe a bit non-understanding of the future ahead but the concept of a more just and equal society, he helped bring to the front of peoples minds.

Men are falling behind women in at least one area, education advancement and success. That is not good. We don't need more inequality, so we'd better figure that thing out.

I heard a concept recently that i am liking more and more. Imagine a future where gender identity and expression is actually pretty trivial. It has no deep effect on the critical parts of life such as what is described. It just is, it is varied and diverse, it may be less static, it is valued but its not a source of objectification, safety concern, etc. To me that is not an Orwellian or Marxist or even political it is just a more moral and kind world.

Quote from: Kylo on January 19, 2017, 06:22:04 PM
I don't get this "women aren't valued" stuff. Women are definitely valued. Men less so. 

If femininity wasn't valued, why is it that men are expendable and women are considered more worthy of protecting? If society is so in love with men, why is it that nobody cares what happens to them, if they get hurt/die/murdered/homeless/washed up? Men are so "loved" they don't have any intrinsic value of their own just by virtue of being men. They have to go out and do something and make themselves useful before anybody gives a flying one about them. Unlike women, who are valued in a sense just for being women without necessarily having to do anything to prove themselves.

There's two sides to that coin and nobody likes to look at the underside of it - that is, women may not have the "prestige" typically afforded men who have proven themselves for something, but society obviously cares more about womens' safety and wellbeing than mens', cares more about providing for them if they need help. Generally cares more about their existence. Women care more about other women than men, and men care more about women than they do men. It's just the natural set-up that women are biologically more valuable than men, and society reflects it.

Not complaining, it's just a fact. I see it around me every day.

When people say men have it all... they're forgetting the rest of the deal they get by being men. Society's got a long way to go to break that biological paradigm, and maybe it never will. It'd be nice if it acknowledged women could have just as much of value to contribute other than the ideal of femininity and encouraged that. And it'd be nice if it actually cared about men.

Sure I understand when people say "women aren't valued" what they are probably getting at. Like they want women to be valued in every possible way. But don't forget the rest of it. It's only fair if women get that, that men get it too.

Though I think it'll be a cold day in hell we get that.

Respectfully..

My life experience contradicts almost every point made in this post. That isn't meant to be an insult, nor a challenge for a rebuttal contest. But without taking these assertions point by point, what I will say, is that I have lived 'as a man', and amongst men, for decades. I was socialized as a man, though I was actually female, though I now live as a woman, so my perspective is perhaps broader than many. While some assertions have merit, they do make assumptions that are not inclusive of the full range of facts and perspectives that a wider base of real-life experience indicates. Perhaps this is a cultural blind spot, I am assuming you live in a Scandinavian or Northern European country. I am of such lineage, my forebears only recently arrived here, and I am not totally unaware of recent political leanings in that region. My best guess is that your opinions are based more on your local situation, and not on life here in the United States, and that may color your views as much as your gender itself does.

Men are not disposable here, not that they have it easy. Femininity is valued here, but only as it relates to the pleasure of those that dominate the feminine. Feminine men are at risk, feminine women that are not deemed attractive have little social value, and masculine women face an even harder struggle for being valued appropriately. All humans are capable of being limited by self-interest and tunnel vision. Those that have power benefit from such limits, and will not relent power voluntarily in most instances.

It is very possible to be 'almost right' to such a degree as to feel absolutely right.

Here in the US, there is still tremendous need for a rebalancing of both power and privilege.

Quote from: RobynD on January 19, 2017, 06:42:06 PM
What you see around you every day is subject to change. I understand what you are saying and there were times that i shared some of those same thoughts, but equality has a definite set of measurements that simply are not met. These include but are not limited to; wage gap, sexual harassment and assault danger, access to health care, hiring and job equality, simple and basic legal protections in many states, reproductive rights, and more.

This is not to say that men have it easy, they do not. Being a human is hard in general but we should be on the exact same plane of hard, the exact same starting point. This is not to say women are not valued and supported in society, they are from many parts of our society. Feminism to me is striving for that simple equality and not giving in until it is attained. You can call that idealistic and yep plenty of society makes jest of that, but it it what it is.

Forced change and terms like social engineering and Marxism are always used by those who don't want change as ways to maintain a status quo that they benefit from. They also decry it as "division" when of course the existing division that favors them is just hunky dory. I encourage anyone to read Marx he is not a boogyman, maybe a bit non-understanding of the future ahead but the concept of a more just and equal society, he helped bring to the front of peoples minds.

Men are falling behind women in at least one area, education advancement and success. That is not good. We don't need more inequality, so we'd better figure that thing out.

I heard a concept recently that i am liking more and more. Imagine a future where gender identity and expression is actually pretty trivial. It has no deep effect on the critical parts of life such as what is described. It just is, it is varied and diverse, it may be less static, it is valued but its not a source of objectification, safety concern, etc. To me that is not an Orwellian or Marxist or even political it is just a more moral and kind world.

Where I live women have all the reproductive rights. They don't get paid any less per hour for their work than any man, as that is definitely illegal here. You could argue how unfair it is that women have to take time off to have children (if they choose to) and therefore end up earning less on the whole, but that's not a problem we can currently fix with technology. Harassment for women is a problem (I've experienced it); assault danger is actually less for them though, judging by some of the figures I've seen. Men are more typically targeted for random assault and mugging on streets and more likely to die in violent altercations. Women appear to be more afraid of being attacked, even though the stats seem to suggest they are less likely to be randomly violently attacked than a male.

I see too many problems with Marx for all of this to be effectively applied to society in its current paradigm. Not least because it is not really in the nature of human beings to operate like a hive of insects, it is not in their nature to excel where there is no pressure. Some aspects do work well within smaller communities and families, but some things never work well on a grand scale. Not everyone can be equal in every way, and I say that as an egalitarian, for the most part. Rights and freedoms we can hope to have, but problems stemming from biology are harder to fix. Not until we undo aspects of our biology. One of them is gender identity and expression. Some think it's just a social construct but I wouldn't be here going through transition if that's all it was. A future where it didn't matter would be nice; I don't think we'll be alive long enough to see it though, just as I don't think it's in our nature to dispense with things like war. It sounds like a world that might be possible if humans became "more" than human or evolved further - into something that was no longer what we'd recognize.

I like your idealistic view and I would have felt the same a few years ago - that we could do it if we only "try hard enough". Now I'm just not so sure such things are possible. We have potential but are still very much slaves to our biology and our impulses for the most part.

Quote from: MissGendered on January 19, 2017, 07:07:38 PM
Respectfully..

My life experience contradicts almost every point made in this post. That isn't meant to be an insult, nor a challenge for a rebuttal contest. But without taking these assertions point by point, what I will say, is that I have lived 'as a man', and amongst men, for decades. I was socialized as a man, though I was actually female, though I now live as a woman, so my perspective is perhaps broader than many. While some assertions have merit, they do make assumptions that are not inclusive of the full range of facts and perspectives that a wider base of real-life experience indicates. Perhaps this is a cultural blind spot, I am assuming you live in a Scandinavian or Northern European country. I am of such lineage, my forebears only recently arrived here, and I am not totally unaware of recent political leanings in that region. My best guess is that your opinions are based more on your local situation, and not on life here in the United States, and that may color your views as much as your gender itself does.

Men are not disposable here, not that they have it easy. Femininity is valued here, but only as it relates to the pleasure of those that dominate the feminine. Feminine men are at risk, feminine women that are not deemed attractive have little social value, and masculine women face an even harder struggle for being valued appropriately. All humans are capable of being limited by self-interest and tunnel vision. Those that have power benefit from such limits, and will not relent power voluntarily in most instances.

It is very possible to be 'almost right' to such a degree as to feel absolutely right.

Here in the US, there is still tremendous need for a rebalancing of both power and privilege.

Your experience is as valid as mine. I'm a Brit, so my knowledge of American culture is lacking, even though I have family there, it's not enough to get a clear picture.

What I mean by disposability probably needs some clarification. I'm talking about the visceral reaction people have when they see a man in distress - or dying - versus a woman in distress, or dying. I'd say it's probably a universal given that people worry more about women in situations like that than men, wouldn't you say? Let's imagine a kidnapping of a young woman versus a young man all over the media. I've seen cases of it in the US as well... I noticed a lot more concern if the victim was female, even to the point of media hysteria in the UK. And I notice that if a girl goes missing, there's a lot of coverage for a much longer period of time than for boys who go missing. Many of the atrocities committed in other countries receive far more news attention here too if they're done to women. Does the US press do this? I'm not sure. It is just something I've noticed consistently over a few decades. Personally I think it's biological in origin. People are programmed to respond to the cries of babies, and I think they're also more inclined to respond to a woman in distress than a man. It's not "wrong" or bad, it just is.

Woman and children, are, after all, the core of society. It makes perfect sense to worry about maintaining the core rather than worrying about the periphery. In many ways society revolves around making sure women are provided for and protected, yet we insist that women serve some kind of male centre. It's simply not what I see. Many men base their sense of value on whether or not they can be a good man to a woman (and keep her happy), or a good father to their children. Or to be useful to this society in some way, which serves that mother-child-family core as well. If society was truly all about men and being male, why would they bother? I don't see the male as "dominant" over female at all if it must do these things to feel valuable. I don't personally do these things to feel valuable, but a lot of males do. A lot of them fret over whether they can ever find a female partner, whether they can ever do what it is society expects them to do. And some kill themselves or fall into wreckage because they can't.

So who really has the power? They both do, although of a different sort. I'd say women have a more covert sort of power, but no less powerful. Now if I was a woman in this society I'd say I want the other kind of power, not the one society or nature has "prescribed" for me. So I get it. I do. But the vast majority of men are also chained up by the expectations of society just in a different way, aren't they?

As for the idea an unattractive woman isn't valued... she may have some problems as a result, but I doubt she'd be thrown on the scrapheap by society for it. She won't be denied welfare if she needs it, she won't be denied reproductive rights or any other legal right because of it. She will likely still be respected as a woman, as a mother, etc. Her lack of attractiveness doesn't generally endanger her. I've seen people say some nasty stuff about people with medical conditions that render them extremely 'unattractive', but I think that goes for men too in that case. Disfigurement tends to provoke similar visceral reactions in people and is why most of us are afraid of it happening to us.

The problem we're going up against here isn't just social conventions but biology itself in some cases. How is that going to be dealt with? How will human nature be subverted?

Quote from: Kylo on January 19, 2017, 07:23:06 PM
Where I live women have all the reproductive rights. They don't get paid any less per hour for their work than any man, as that is definitely illegal here.

You say you live in the UK, here's what I found for official government figures on pay equity in the UK

QuoteOn the 26th October 2016 the ONS released provisional results for the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings.

Key points

In April 2016 the gender pay gap (for median earnings) for full-time employees was 9.4 per cent, down from 9.6 per cent in 2015.
When part-time employees are included, the gap decreased from 19.3 per cent in 2015 to 18.1 per cent in 2016, the largest year-on-year drop since 2010. This is also the lowest gender pay gap since the survey began in 1997, when the gap for all employees was 27.5 per cent.

If what you mean by it's illegal, is that there's a law mandating equal pay for equal work, sure, we have the same law. In neither our case nor yours has this yet resulted in actual equity in pay.

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on January 18, 2017, 06:21:48 PM
Intersectional feminsim is where its at and is very much still needed in today's society.

Indeed. Right on sister.

The patriarchy is bad for men too. That doesn't mean it isn't still the patriarchy.

As far as I see, based on my experience, the social drive of 'protect the woman, let the guy rot' is tied up in a lot of things. But critically, I think at least one of these is racism. At least in the West, the default 'innocent woman who needs saving' is a pretty, white, healthy and able-bodied cis woman. And if she isn't one of those things, well, society doesn't spend nearly as much time worrying about it, let alone when she isn't more of those things. And conversely, the social treatment of men that you talk about reflecting "disposability" I think has a lot to do with racism and xenophobia. The default picture that much of the west has developed for the 'scourge of society' is a young non-white guy. In many countries these are also immigrants. When there's a young white guy accused of sexual assault, all anyone wants to talk about is how the allegation will ruin his life; when it's a black guy, he's a "superpredator". And the worst part is that psychological experiments reveal that this bias is even deeper than we might think, and certainly deeper than we want. It's ingrained into society (I don't think there's really a need to posit a biological basis for this), just like we could say the same of its treatment of women.

One thing I think you're right about, women and children are perceived (unconsciously or subconsciously) to be the core of society. But I think one powerful side effect of that is that, rather than 'women serving the male centre', it's actually 'men wanting to control the female centre'. And doing so, quite effectively. As long as there is this continuing pattern of domestic violence and sexual violence that disproportionately affect women, I find it hard to take seriously the argument that society places women (as a whole) on a pedestal when I see so painfully the way in which so many are ignored, or worse, subject to the full, undiluted brutality of society; rather it seems to me that certain women—certainly those with the social capital earned from other positions of power (whether race, social class/wealth, etc.)—are 'protected' from the 'threat' of everything that lies below.

The thing about social contructs is that I think when people say 'gender is (just) a social construct', it's commonly misunderstood to mean 'gender isn't real'. But it is real. Gender is real and race is real and sex is real and social class is real and money is real. But they're all social constructs too: the meaning of all of these things is determined and maintained by society. What qualifies someone as 'white' today in the United States is different from what it was one hundred years ago. Who knows, maybe trans people will eventually have some impact on society's understanding of gender, too—and if so, we might say that the social construct has shifted to include some impact of individual expression.

I don't think it's idealism to speculate on what the world could be like if the rigid division of society on the basis of arbitrary social categories assigned messily to people who have themselves been given bodies that rather messily fit (hence all the exceptions falling out the edges, i.e. us; it's all somewhat random in the end). I'm not sure such things are possible either, in practical terms at least if not in theoretical terms, but that more reflects my pessimism on the world as a whole. I also think misogyny and racism are here for the long haul and will ruin the lives of millions and millions more—hell, probably billions more. And a lot of those people will be men. But in the end, I fight because I think the way things are right now is wrong, profoundly so. So what if some of that reason is bound up in 'human nature'/genetics? I think that's all the more reason to work against it vociferously, because it means that more people will suffer if people don't learn to fight that unconscious bias.

One thing I will say, it's easy to talk about the fact that in much of the Western world, women (or non-straight people, for a similar example) are afforded equal or nearly-equal rights under the law. But what is the case under the law does not match fully with what is the case in fact. If a company can get away with paying you less as a woman (and you don't have the money to sue), then all the laws in the world won't change it. What is a full slate of reproductive rights if it's only afforded to the people that can afford it? If you can't report a case of sexual assault or domestic violence because the police won't believe you, what does it even mean that rape is illegal?

These are heavy topics, but I don't bring them up lightly either. For me, for my personal experience, being female is tied up inexorably in surviving a society and a world that hasn't been kind to me. That ignores my words because of who they're coming from. That calls me 'crazy' and 'bitchy' when I'm angry at this because it doesn't take me seriously. That decides my worth based on my attractiveness and my willingness to put on makeup and smile. That has hurt and abused me no matter what I do to please it.

Quote from: SadieBlake on January 19, 2017, 09:00:25 PM
You say you live in the UK, here's what I found for official government figures on pay equity in the UK

If what you mean by it's illegal, is that there's a law mandating equal pay for equal work, sure, we have the same law. In neither our case nor yours has this yet resulted in actual equity in pay.

And have you found the reason for it? It isn't that women are forced to work less hours by men or excluded from full time jobs. We know that.

Might it be that women choose to work less overtime, take more time off, or prefer different working habits to men? Might it be maternity leave, or more days off sick? More women choosing to take part-time jobs for the flexibility it offers them?

If they are not paid less by the hour and not excluded from full time work, what is causing it on a national average scale, because we aren't talking just testosterone-fueled high-flying bankers jobs here. Talking average jobs for the average person.

The "pay gap" fails to mention working patterns often differ between genders. And if it is a matter of personal choice, it ain't sexism.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3214854/Pay-gap-Women-earn-men-till-40s-20-woman-paid-men-age-group-decade.html

Women out earn men in young adulthood.
What happens is motherhood hits at 40, women become primary caretaker most times, so the averages go down.

And as far as domestic violence goes,
http://www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/
But the feminist duluth model doesn't incorporate this at all and only refers to men as batterers and women as victims:

http://www.theduluthmodel.org/change/mens-nonviolence.html
Actually read that^

And I should mention that with sexual assault the number varies from 1 in 5 to 0.03 in 5 depending on methodology:
http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/11/new-doj-data-on-sexual-assaults-college-students-are-actually-less-likely-to-be-victimized/

Quote from: kinz on January 19, 2017, 09:12:52 PM
The patriarchy is bad for men too. That doesn't mean it isn't still the patriarchy.

How is there a patriarchy in the West when Hillary Clinton came so close to being president of America? When Germany's leader is a woman? When the UK's leader is a woman? A woman is in the lead for the French election polls? America is such a racist patriarchy it voted for a black man as its most powerful figurehead twice, and very nearly got a woman this time. What kind of self-respecting and powerful patriarchy allows this?

Companies can't get away with paying women less legally in average jobs, if they are exposed for it they get into trouble. There will always be someone doing something illegal whether it's paying cash in hand or paying one person a different amount than another and not allowing discussion of wages. The important thing is that it is not allowed and most don't do it. You have to accept some will always slip through the net, the main thing is society sees this as bad and doesn't permit it. And it sees rape as bad. And domestic violence as bad. Those things will always occur even in the best of societies somewhere. You can't eliminate the possibility altogether. And interestingly in our horribly patriarchal society we have the Duluth model and we have the fact Western society is such a rape culture in which we love rape so much it can ruin your career/life just for someone to falsely accuse you of it. And if the police turn up at your house after a domestic incident, guess who they are going to assume is innocent first?

We live in such a misogynistic hellscape that misogynist is something people don't want to be called and affects reputations significantly on social media. We don't typically celebrate people who beat women, or rape women, or say nasty things about women. Some people might, but the society in general doesn't like or tolerate it.

Just because someone out there is trying to push this idea by repeating it so many times everyone believes it doesn't mean it's true.

What does a real patriarchy look like? Something like what they have in Saudi Arabia. No women in charge, no women driving, no women in many select professions, no women allowed to leave the country without a man's permission, no women allowed to walk around without a male relative, immediate harassment in the streets if they don't dress how they're told, more difficult for them to get easy contraception, abortion is illegal, beating your wife is ok, women get half a man's worth of inheritance, testimony of a woman in court worth half of a man's, the list is huge. "Rape culture" exists in that region for sure. If you don't stick to the rules it's expected you'd be raped or sexually assaulted as corrective. Their authorities see nothing wrong with child brides. Not only that but if you do get raped you're likely to be punished for it with a public flogging (or worse) because proving you were raped and not having illegal sexual relations is almost impossible for a woman to do.

To think many people see nothing wrong with that, but insist our culture is somehow as bad or worse is beyond me. There's room for improvement ofc but calling it a patriarchy these days is starting to sound like a joke.

Quote from: izzy on January 19, 2017, 05:22:22 PM
Femme idenified people are simply valued less than what society considers masculine. If a man and women did the same work, her job would be scrutinized more for the same job. It doesn't matter how great her job is, she would need to work twice as hard to get recognized.
In being reconized as feminists I heard that plenty of  times and formed in my childhood. i never liked the idea of masculinity being favored over feminity. Whos the god that says one is better than the other.

Except, interestingly, in fields dominated by women. I work with people with TBI. I previously worked with people with mental illness. In these fields men are a definite minority and women are treated with more respect. I can't say whether men are discriminated against in those fields. I transitioned between situations and the agencies had very different cultures.

Kylo, perhaps this helps the point. There's still a patriarchy dispite your examples because those very examples are rare enough to be news. Just as airline crashes are rare enough to be news and frequent car crashes get no mention.

QuoteJust because someone out there is trying to push this idea by repeating it so many times everyone believes it doesn't mean it's true.

Pot, meet my friend kettle?

Kylo, you established in your first post in this thread that you don't subscribe to feminism and since then you have spent a lot of time trying to suggest that Western society has moved on to a post-sexist period. Let me suggest that continued citing of facts that you think bolster your case aren't helping. I disagree with your thesis because your "facts"  don't represent my experience and when I've posted objective facts (I.e. actual studies, not isolated anecdotes) you have simply added more explanations why your theories are correct rather than responding to my (and others') points.

I'm not right, you're not right, 'nuf said.

We can cite statistics but IMO best to go to the source rather advocacy sites with an agenda.  Nothing trumps our personal experience in terms of impact, however.  I value hearing about how people have experienced gender and feminism as they transition.  I have experienced considerable misogyny and even sexual assault (publicly groped) since starting transition.  My eyes have been opened wider that ever and I feel a greater connection to the challenges we all face seeking equality. Yes, intersectional feminism speaks volumes to me.

Prevalence and Characteristics of Sexual Violence, Stalking, and Intimate Partner Violence Victimization — National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, United States, 2011
Surveillance Summaries
September 5, 2014 / 63(SS08);1-18

Matthew J. Breiding, PhD
Sharon G. Smith, PhD
Kathleen C. Basile, PhD
Mikel L. Walters, PhD
Jieru Chen, MS
Melissa T. Merrick, PhD
Division of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC
Corresponding author: Matthew J. Breiding, Division of Violence Prevention, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, CDC. Telephone: 770-488-1396; E-mail: dvi8@cdc.gov.
Abstract
Problem/Condition: Sexual violence, stalking, and intimate partner violence are public health problems known to have a negative impact on millions of persons in the United States each year, not only by way of immediate harm but also through negative long-term health impacts. Before implementation of the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS) in 2010, the most recent detailed national data on the public health burden from these forms of violence were obtained from the National Violence against Women Survey conducted during 1995–1996.
This report examines sexual violence, stalking, and intimate partner violence victimization using data from 2011. The report describes the overall prevalence of sexual violence, stalking, and intimate partner violence victimization; racial/ethnic variation in prevalence; how types of perpetrators vary by violence type; and the age at which victimization typically begins. For intimate partner violence, the report also examines a range of negative impacts experienced as a result of victimization, including the need for services.
Reporting Period: January–December, 2011.
Description of System: NISVS is a national random-digit–dial telephone survey of the noninstitutionalized English- and Spanish-speaking U.S. population aged ≥18 years. NISVS gathers data on experiences of sexual violence, stalking, and intimate partner violence among adult women and men in the United States by using a dual-frame sampling strategy that includes both landline and cellular telephones. The survey was conducted in 50 states and the District of Columbia; in 2011, the second year of NISVS data collection, 12,727 interviews were completed, and 1,428 interviews were partially completed.
Results: In the United States, an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes; an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate. An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences. The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.
An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes. An estimated 4.2% of women and 2.1% of men were stalked in the 12 months preceding the survey.
With respect to sexual violence and stalking, female victims reported predominantly male perpetrators, whereas for male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the specific form of violence examined. Male rape victims predominantly had male perpetrators, but other forms of sexual violence experienced by men were either perpetrated predominantly by women (i.e., being made to penetrate and sexual coercion) or split more evenly among male and female perpetrators (i.e., unwanted sexual contact and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences). In addition, male stalking victims also reported a more even mix of males and females who had perpetrated stalking against them.

QuoteData on the prevalence of rape vary greatly depending on what definition of rape is used. The FBI recorded 85,593 rapes in 2010, while the Centers for Disease Control (the above study) counted nearly 1.3 million incidents in that same year. It should however be noted that the CDC's definition of rape "represents the public health perspective" and takes into account the ability of the victim to consent to sex because he or she had been drinking or taking drugs while the FBI defines rape as "Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.

"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States

Bottom line, is the 1 in 5 is a survey designed to include people who have sex while drinking. I know that is epidemic in binge drinking Britain for sure. If you don't take drugs and drink to excess, a woman's odds of being raped by the CDC's criteria (as they decided if the interviewees were raped based on telephone interviews) are no where near 1 in 5.

I would also want to know the response rate for that study as I hear it was low.

Quote from: JMJW on January 20, 2017, 02:43:45 PM
"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#United_States

Bottom line, is the 1 in 5 is a survey designed to include people who have sex while drinking. I know that is epidemic in binge drinking Britain for sure. If you don't drink to excess, a woman's odds of being raped by the CDC's criteria (as they decided if the interviewees were raped) are no where near 1 in 5.

Its data and I understand it, but even calling that out as separate makes my skin crawl. Rape is rape, i don't care if someone is completely drunk, and naked with a neon arrow pointing at them.

Quote from: RobynD on January 20, 2017, 02:50:12 PM
Its data and I understand it, but even calling that out as separate makes my skin crawl. Rape is rape, i don't care if someone is completely drunk, and naked with a neon arrow pointing at them.

The point is how do you define drunk? At what point does drink remove ability to consent and how do you tell that over the phone? It's vague and ambiguous. Again the CDC, not the respondents decided who was raped and who was not. And what if the partner's drunk too?

If you are inebriated at all, and/or your partner AND you have ANY doubt whether there is consent for sex, you stop. I don't care if inhibitions are dulled or judgement is dulled by the drug, if you proceed and someone claims there was not consent than you need to experience the consequences of the law. Edited and added: It is actually no different than drinking and getting behind the wheel and hurting someone, you have to bear the responsibility.

Can someone falsely entrap you? Sure they can, but that is going to be really hard to prove. Which is why the old advice about avoiding drugs and alcohol with casual sex is good.

Quote from: RobynD on January 20, 2017, 03:00:27 PM
If you are inebriated at all, and/or your partner AND you have ANY doubt whether there is consent for sex, you stop. I don't care if inhibitions are dulled or judgement is dulled by the drug, if you proceed and someone claims there was not consent than you need to experience the consequences of the law.

Can someone falsely entrap you? Sure they can, but that is going to be really hard to prove. Which is why the old advice about avoiding drugs and alcohol with casual sex is good.

The 1 in 5 people are raped in their lifetime is an alarmist, outrageous, fear inducing statistic due to the emotive power of rape, where an MTF who hears it would have to be masochistic to want to transition. But when given proper context that it includes any inebriation, 1 in 5 is the number one would expect.

Beyond addressing misogyny, sexual assault, violence and inequality, feminism has as a fiercely positive, proud and determined character that speaks to me.  I stand in solidarity with any group seeking a better future, freedom and increased self determination for all.  Reproductive rights are just one arena under constant assault that motivates me to take action.  Rape is all too real and the CDC is hardly given to alarmist, outrageous or fear as tools for learning.  No excuses need apply, rape is a crime.

We have made progress and continue to need more.  One review can readily be had by watching old movies that feature women as props, secondary characters, subject to abuse and with few prospects beyond their appearance. 

Marching in solidarity with my sisters and brothers tomorrow.

How is it alarmist if it is true? Its just reality.

To discount it is to in a sense support a rape culture that has in part, used things like dress and drunkenness as an excuse for its actions. I'd sort of like to see a survey of people who decide to transition to see if this statistic is truly something that causes one to pause. Perhaps it does in some numbers, I have no idea but there are a lot of things to be afraid of in life as men as women.

To me it is madness to call this form of rape anything but what it is and to have the law apply equally to all who commit it. I have no real problem on presenting the data it is certainly some safety info, but it still makes my skin crawl and i'd be really careful on how it is presented. It is sort of like abuse in general. By the numbers, it is caused overwhelming by people that the victim knows. That data is useful too but abuse is abuse.

Quote from: RobynD on January 20, 2017, 02:50:12 PM
Its data and I understand it, but even calling that out as separate makes my skin crawl. Rape is rape, i don't care if someone is completely drunk, and naked with a neon arrow pointing at them.

Agree 1000%

Yeah, it's weird for me, being dual gender. I can see both sides, even if it's heavily weighted toward the male perspective.
Before I took derris scandens, which blended my gender sides, when my male side was dominating I was misogynist. Even as a child I assumed males were superior.

When other kids tried to put me down for only being a "stupid girl," or tried any disdainful mansplaining, my male side would rise up and put the person in his place. I had the unfair advantages of both genders, being intelligent, articulate, well-read on almost any topic like a female, but aggressive, with the impulse to confront perceived enemies like a male.

The startled boys, and even men, would usually beat a hasty retreat after one of my furiously scornful attacks, but it's a good thing I resemble a pretty, delicate female, so no real male would dare take a swing at me. Besides, I could have defended myself, since I took shaolin do karate classes, even competed.

I considered myself feminist since the 1960s, but part of that was my feeling of outrage I wasn't being counted or taken seriously by others. I assumed males were superior, but I considered myself one of them.

And yes, when I started working, even when I trained new male co-workers, those men would receive far more salary than I did.
Pure misogyny.

My male supervisors would grope female workers and openly proposition them at work, but the moment one of them laid a hand on me, he was sorry.
I raised my voice and loudly asked him what he was doing, asked if he was trying to dominate me physically by invading my space and touching me.
He hastily snatched back his arm.

The rest of the women smiled in admiration, perhaps wondering why THEY had never spoken up. But even I didn't realize it was my aggressive male personality who was challenging a (perceived fellow) male in a masculine manner.

By the way, the male supervisor I challenged seemed to instinctively realize I was a fellow male, and not only promoted me to head my own department, he began treating me with deferential respect, even shooting the breeze with me, as though with a fellow male.

Quote from: Raell on January 20, 2017, 04:02:10 PM
Yeah, it's weird for me, being dual gender. I can see both sides,

Understood. My alter system was split pretty evenly between males and females, children and adults.

There was no mistaking the gender of which ever alter was hosting.

Helped when I was de-transitioning to female to already have women on board. Helped to have male alters when I was forced to live as a man. People knew immediately when they bit off more than they had expected.

Now that I am 'one', I still have both data bases and bases of experience to draw upon, though I dislike pulling from the male side intensely..

Missy

I think equalist is a better term for some one wanting gender equalist then femminist. I really dislike third wave femminism becaus for the most part they dont seem to care much about equality but just want things for themselfs to be easy.

I hear a lot complaining from them but they dont want to work to a solution. Things like complaining there arent enough woman in sceince but not wanting to do it themselfs. Claiming there is a wage gap while looking at studies about it that dont take simple things like hours worked and jobs into account. Also heard a lot about woman quota for jobs Which i find ridicules becaus people should be judged on their work and not their gender.

Also mostly ignoring problems men have like
Men are drafted into the millatery woman arent men are more likely to get a higher prison sentence for the same crime, woman are much more likely to get custody of childeren.

So at this time neither have it perfect for them. But third wave femminism isnt doing anything good for it becaus they dont focus on real issues.
Just going to say that feminism is still important in other parts of the world becaus there are alot of places where woman have it very bad. But in most western countrys thats just not the case.

sigh..third wave feminism isn't intersectional feminism which is the current feminist movement. I'm so tired of seeing these "meninist arguments" on here when intersectional feminism covers everyone from the most marginalized groups to men's issues.

"Meninism" was satire.

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on January 20, 2017, 06:33:16 PM
sigh..third wave feminism isn't intersectional feminism which is the current feminist movement. I'm so tired of seeing these "meninist arguments" on here when intersectional feminism covers everyone from the most marginalized groups to men's issues.

Intersectional feminism may be the most inclusive form feminism has taken, but that doesn't mean every feminist out there views themselves as an intersectional feminist and values the same things.

I am a humanist. I want to see a world that encourages all people to achieve their fullest potential regardless of sex, gender, race, class etc.
I have been a staunch feminist for most of my life. When I decided as a teen to keep pretending to be a straight woman, it reinforced my feminism because I hated being dismissed because of my sex. I am a guy and I react the way most guys do to being treated the way young women are... I got mad and didn't put up with that nonsense (while the girls around me tended to smile and nod or be demure)...
Then in my 20s, I achieved success in my field and was well respected among my peers. On a personal level, I was surrounded by people who respected me and did not focus on gender/sex. I was still a feminist on a global level but I was complacent on a personal level because I wasn't facing a lot of challenges.

Then I became pregnant and birthed two children and became a stay home parent... and I was no longer able to be complacent.
I disappeared as a person and as a guy. I became a "mother": an idealized imagine of the best of womanhood, placed on an alter and worshipped as the core of humanity... yet denigrated at the same time. Mothers in our society are susceptible to constant feedback from strangers. This includes unsolicited advice, commentary and even touching. Mothers are excluded from public spaces and  personhood becomes contingent upon the children. From talking to other mothers, this seems pretty standard. Most of the woman identified mothers I know say that they also experienced this to a lesser extent before becoming parents. I didn't because I really didn't come off as feminine to anyone.
Now I exist in an interesting dual world and get to see how differently "men" and "women/mothers" are treated. When I am out without my children, I pass as a man about half the time. I am largely ignored by strangers and allowed to go through my day unimpeded and with limited feedback from strangers. When people do engage me it is a simple nod or greeting not a lecture on what mood I should be in, what I should wear in public, where I should go etc... a completely different experience from when I am perceived as a woman.
Feminism is needed to address the inequalities that exist globally, the limitations of gender stereotyping as well as the microaggressions and minimization that women experience on a daily basis.
Men and women are not equal in our society. The situation is much better than it used to be but it is still worth fighting to improve it, especially for women of colour, trans women, and gender non-conforming people.


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QuoteHow is it alarmist if it is true? Its just reality.

According to the CDC. But according to the US Justice Department's crime statistics based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (which includes crimes unreported to the police) it's not reality. They found only 12% as many ( about 250,000) as the CDC's which says in a single year, 1.6 percent of women reported experiences that are considered rape—almost two million cases.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv11.pdf

I don't see how it can be called reality (yet) if there's a tenfold difference in results depending on survey method. And I think calling it such is alarmist, especially if given without context. Which it is. Alot. It's just thrown out there as common knowledge.

Quote
I have no idea but there are a lot of things to be afraid of in life as men as women.

Within Feminism there's a clear attitude of let's promote the worst statistics for women,trans people and people of colour to make it look  nightmarish that people would have to take it seriously and give assistance. But it makes transition harder in my opinion.

Quote from: arice on January 20, 2017, 07:45:52 PM
I am a humanist. I want to see a world that encourages all people to achieve their fullest potential regardless of sex, gender, race, class etc.
I have been a staunch feminist for most of my life. When I decided as a teen to keep pretending to be a straight woman, it reinforced my feminism because I hated being dismissed because of my sex. I am a guy and I react the way most guys do to being treated the way young women are... I got mad and didn't put up with that nonsense (while the girls around me tended to smile and nod or be demure)...
Then in my 20s, I achieved success in my field and was well respected among my peers. On a personal level, I was surrounded by people who respected me and did not focus on gender/sex. I was still a feminist on a global level but I was complacent on a personal level because I wasn't facing a lot of challenges.

Then I became pregnant and birthed two children and became a stay home parent... and I was no longer able to be complacent.
I disappeared as a person and as a guy. I became a "mother": an idealized imagine of the best of womanhood, placed on an alter and worshipped as the core of humanity... yet denigrated at the same time. Mothers in our society are susceptible to constant feedback from strangers. This includes unsolicited advice, commentary and even touching. Mothers are excluded from public spaces and  personhood becomes contingent upon the children. From talking to other mothers, this seems pretty standard. Most of the woman identified mothers I know say that they also experienced this to a lesser extent before becoming parents. I didn't because I really didn't come off as feminine to anyone.
Now I exist in an interesting dual world and get to see how differently "men" and "women/mothers" are treated. When I am out without my children, I pass as a man about half the time. I am largely ignored by strangers and allowed to go through my day unimpeded and with limited feedback from strangers. When people do engage me it is a simple nod or greeting not a lecture on what mood I should be in, what I should wear in public, where I should go etc... a completely different experience from when I am perceived as a woman.
Feminism is needed to address the inequalities that exist globally, the limitations of gender stereotyping as well as the microaggressions and minimization that women experience on a daily basis.
Men and women are not equal in our society. The situation is much better than it used to be but it is still worth fighting to improve it, especially for women of colour, trans women, and gender non-conforming people.


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I too am a humanist and was once an active leader in the AHA.  Humanism is inclusive of feminism and I appreciate reading about your informed perspectives.  Thank you!

Quote from: Kylo on January 20, 2017, 06:49:28 PM
"Meninism" was satire.

exactly  :laugh:

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on January 21, 2017, 02:59:16 PM
exactly  :laugh:

But, it was created to prove a point. That a bunch of men can't set up a group in the street and do what feminists do for women's issues only for men's problems in the same way without everyone deriding them, calling the police on them, or threatening to punch them.

Basically women commanding attention for their problems is thought of as wonderful. Men doing the same thing? Unacceptable. You're tired of "meninists" - men pointing out that men have problems too? There you go, it's just what I said earlier. Society cares about women and their problems. Men, however, can shut up and put up with it. No one wants to hear.

No wonder many guys are walking away from feminism, commitment, marriage etc. The message they are unworthy of consideration or even the courtesy of being listened to because of their gender is strong.

And people wonder why men don't like to open up and share their emotions. What's the point? As a man they don't matter anyway, anything other than stoicism is tiresome, right?

Kylo I don't even know where to begin to address all of your posts in this thread but you're really off base with much of what you're saying. You're completely taking what I said out of context to fit your narrative. At the same time I dont want to continue this discussion on Susans cause this is primarily a support site and it feels like this thread is going off topic. I dont want to argue.

QuoteDo FtM transitioners still feel part of feminism?

Seems very much on topic of discussion to me.

I also have no desire to engage with anybody that presents circular arguments and straw man logic.

What I will say is that there have been Men's Movements that went over pretty well.

I remember the Men's Movement of the 80's very well, and much progress was made in asserting a more balanced view of masculinity in American society. The Mythopoetic Men's Movement went even more deeply into exploring and celebrating masculinity is ways that benefited both men and women, without decaying into 'what about me?' hysteria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men's_movement

I know a lot of men. None of them echo the strident, retaliatory complaints I have seen contributed to this thread.

I am also done contributing and responding to this topic, it does seem that it has run its course, and has spiraled into something far less than the OP intended.

Missy out.

Quote from: MissGendered on January 21, 2017, 04:17:22 PMstrident, retaliatory complaints

Retaliatory? Complaints? Pretty sure I emphasized I wasn't personally complaining. Responding to points made by people, especially them brushing aside your perspective as if it's unimportant and not worth the time of day isn't retaliation or whinging.

Look at all these comments trying to get the thread shut down. I expected better than to see people try to silence me.

This is another reason why I don't think feminism does address men's issues, and therefore why I can't endorse it. I will endorse something that cares for men and women and those identifying in between equally, treats them all as human beings all worth listening to.

To give my post above a bit more clarity vs editing it. I just dont want to get banned honestly. This has nothing to do about silencing you Kylo. Since I started posting here back in 2012 I've made an effort to stay away from subjects that I'm passionate about and or where I have to interject my personal social experiences to prove points and such. I still need Susans and losing this place because my tone was too intense or something would really suck. I've seen members be banned for much less on here before and I understand why that is because this isn't the place for those kinds of heated discussions. I was hoping I'd see this thread be a more of an objective platform to discuss feminism but its not, its getting a bit too personal and the posts about rape/sexual assault have a hit a bit too close to home apart from what you've been posting. So to reiterate I'd rather just leave the thread all together than continue and risk a ban.

I wonder, would someone get banned for a discussion like this here? Looks pretty civil to me, even if we disagreed.

It wouldn't be my call, but I will agree that everyone has been civil with one another despite obvious disagreements. Banning is usually reserved for severe or recurrent TOS violations. I do also agree that some of this is likely not what Tessa intended :)

LOL!
Kylo does sound like a man!

Like I've said, my male mode is also misogynistic. Luckily, the derris scandens blends my gender modes so I can also see the female point of view, whereas before, I could only see it if I was in "female mode," but couldn't remember it later.

While I am happy to provoke some thinking and thoughtful responses there is also the unintentional ability to create more heat than light.  I am fortunate that most of the trans men I personally know remain feminists and help other people hear from a broad perspective and deeply informed experience.  I don't want to live in a bubble, however, and I do want to continue to learn from well reasoned and respectful dialogue from multiple sources. 

I am learning to be less surprised when some of us who transition carry and support what I feel are sexist stereotypes along the way.  That is also a reminder to me of how diverse transgender people are.

As a college trustee, education is my go to and default response to most problems.  Really changing hearts and minds is a considerably longer term endeavor and this thread reminds me we have a ways to go.  I am sufficiently recharged by the experiences of solidarity yesterday as we marched together in solidarity for women's and humanity's concerns.  Now that was sweet!

I agree Kylo men cant admit their have issues too because they are expected to be all powerful. But truthfully it will be wonderful a society free of shackles of gender roles.

Quoting a post from medium.com here, I can't link it because it contains forbidden words.

QuoteYou are not equal. Your daughters are not equal. You are still systemically oppressed.
Estonia allows parents to take up to three years of leave, fully paid for the first 435 days. United States has no policy requiring maternity leave.

Singapore's women feel safe walking alone at night. American women do not.
New Zealand's women have the smallest gender gap in wages, at 5.6%. United States' pay gap is 20%.

Iceland has the highest number of women CEOs, at 44%. United States is at 4.0%.

The United States ranks at 45 for women's equality. Behind Rwanda, Cuba, Philippines, Jamaica.

But I get it. You don't want to admit it. You don't want to be a victim. You think feminism is a dirty word. You think it's not classy to fight for equality.

'nuff said

Quote from: SadieBlake on January 24, 2017, 07:20:17 AM
Quoting a post from medium.com here, I can't link it because it contains forbidden words.

'nuff said

A lot of people don't feel safe walking around at night alone both men and woman. And I don't see how feminism is going to solve this problem of people not feeling save at night because this issue has more to do with crime and not that woman aren't equal to men.

The wage gap is the average earnings of men and women and it doesn't take into account hours worked or the job. And if some one is being paid less because of their sex they could sue their employee for discrimination.

CEO's should be chosen because of their qualification not sex. There are still a lot of woman who choose family over their job unlike most men who are more focused on their job that's just one reason why there are more male CEO's then female.

Just a few things for some men issues that are mostly ignored or addressed by feminist.
Combat deaths overwhelmingly male
Homicide victims overwhelmingly male
Suicides overwhelmingly male
Winner of custody overwhelmingly female
Men who deal with domestic abuse are mostly made fun of for being beaten by woman and discouraged from reporting it.
And mutilating the genitalia of little boys is also still acceptable while people get very angry when it happens to girls.

If you are really fighting for equality then address issues men and woman face. Don't go that one is the victim and then ignore the other. Thats why people dont like feminism most feminist claim to be for equality but only focus on woman issues.

All of those issues mentioned above should be addressed by equality and feminism in general helps men by leveling the playing field and reducing gap that exists between genders.

Combat deaths - eliminating militaristic "police actions" would help in this a lot. Encouraging women to serve as part of the Defense forces will spread that risk further. Suicide - yep agree 100%, we need better mental health services for all in this country. Custody- Same thing, it should be more equal. I have heard feminists address this.

Domestic abuse - there should be zero tolerance of abuse by either gender and programs available to help all who are abused. I have actually heard anti-feminists claim that " being a mean person" ( they used another term) is abuse. It can be yes, but the vast majority of marital murders and physical abuse is done by men. You have to protect someones physical safety first. Men who are being physically assaulted should have access to the same help. Anyone that discourages them from reporting in law enforcement should lose their job.

Circumcison as an involuntary or religious practice? I agree. We need a lot more education for parents and health care. Men should get to choose when they are able to make that choice.

Feminism has a huge list of items to fight for for women just to get us to a level playing field. Get us to the Equal Rights Amendment. That is not to say that male inequality should be ignored. Equality should never mean less rights for some. It might mean less privilege on a mathematical basis, there is not a lot to be done about that. Women have a bit of unfair privilege as well, as you pointed out.

The scales are still tipped VERY heavily in favor of men. Wages, hiring, heath care, political power, business leadership to name just a few of the big ones. The elimination of misogyny, sexism, and the rape culture goes hand in hand with these.

So you have a feminist here that 100% supports men's rights to equality as well.

Quote from: Sena on January 24, 2017, 08:23:38 AM
A lot of people don't feel safe walking around at night alone both men and woman. And I don't see how feminism is going to solve this problem of people not feeling save at night because this issue has more to do with crime and not that woman aren't equal to men.

The wage gap is the average earnings of men and women and it doesn't take into account hours worked or the job. And if some one is being paid less because of their sex they could sue their employee for discrimination.

CEO's should be chosen because of their qualification not sex. There are still a lot of woman who choose family over their job unlike most men who are more focused on their job that's just one reason why there are more male CEO's then female.

Just a few things for some men issues that are mostly ignored or addressed by feminist.
Combat deaths overwhelmingly male
Homicide victims overwhelmingly male
Suicides overwhelmingly male
Winner of custody overwhelmingly female
Men who deal with domestic abuse are mostly made fun of for being beaten by woman and discouraged from reporting it.
And mutilating the genitalia of little boys is also still acceptable while people get very angry when it happens to girls.

If you are really fighting for equality then address issues men and woman face. Don't go that one is the victim and then ignore the other. Thats why people dont like feminism most feminist claim to be for equality but only focus on woman issues.

Crime today is half what it was in the 80's. It's a dog whistle to rile the masses. The use of lies has become all too common. The problem is the liars have convinced the lied to that they speak the truth. We are finding out more everyday just what liars they are.
The reason there are more Male CEO's than female is because it simply is a boy's club. I have worked for and with some outstanding women. The good thing with most female CEO's is that ego is largely non existent. Meetings are for discussion before coming to a consensus.
Finally just what do you think feminism is? The advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.
synonyms:   the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation, female emancipation, women's rights; informal women's lib.
As for combat deaths, lies are more of a danger to men than IED's, Lies led to the death of over 10,000 Americans. Men and women.

Dawn

QuoteAll of those issues mentioned above should be addressed by equality and feminism in general helps men by leveling the playing field and reducing gap that exists between genders.

So you believe mens rights issues are merely a side effect of men's own toxic oppression of women.

Meaning when you hear a list of men's and boys' issues, your solution is to tell men to stop oppressing women.

And then men get asked, why be an MRA? Why not just join Feminism?

When they say no thanks :o

It must be because they're misogynists.  ::)

I think feminists need to jettison the idea of championing mens rights in any way. Stick to what it's really about: Women's rights. Let men take care of mens rights without obstruction (as opposed to feminists protesting and blockading every meeting and talk), and if there's a conflict - well that's the nature of the beast and it gets argued out based on the best statistics we have.

It's gotten to the point where mens rights issues are only listened to in the mainstream if a woman presents it.

Let's not go after each other, or re-interpret someone's beliefs for them.  That's not really helpful.

I identify as a woman, myself, and believe that all human beings should treat all other human beings with respect.  That makes me what is called an 'intersectional feminist', a feminist who sees the huge overlap of women's rights, trans rights, gay rights, minority rights, the rights of the economically disadvantaged, that is, human rights.

I advocate as a woman, for human rights.  That, at the end of the day, is where it's at.

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