Proposed first paragraph of a revised wikipedia androgyne entry. Please add, takeaway tidy up and criticise. Definitely please find some citations or ways of making what we have discussed look 'dead proper'.
Androgyne serves as a blanket term for those individuals who feel that their gender identity does not cleanly fit within the binary gender model. This feeling can be characterised and expressed in a number of different ways. This lack of identification with male or female links it to the concept of genderqueer, although genderqueer is a politicised concept, more often used by those with a wish to destroy the current conception of two genders. Androgyne is simply a term of self-reference from which other notions can follow.
Hi Pica Pica
I am not certain what the definition for androgyne is. But the not feeling or identifying as either gender I am familiar with. Actually not even thinking about whatsoever from my early childhood until I began to have these urges again, urges to be a girl came back when I was 47. I continued repressing and denying it until when I was 50 where it came to the point of do or die.
I am not certain if this experience has any bearing on being androgyne let alone if it could be classified as such. I just know that for many years sex or the action of having sex with the opposite gender and which one would that be if I did? Mostly it never even crossed my mind. I am now as normal a woman as I can be and finally feel comfortable in my skin. Sex with either gender is still not the biggest issue in my life.
Cindy
There is a diversity of ways that an androgyne can feel outside of the binary gender model. Some feel like no gender, some feel like both, while others feel like something else. Some are a blur of gender and some feel they have distinct masculinity and femininity. Some androgynes have a single gender identity; for others gender identity drifts like a mood between masculine and feminine; yet others shift from one distinct identity to another. A change in gender identity may or may not be associated with a change in personality or personal identity.
I wish we had some references. :-\
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 09, 2007, 08:46:56 PM
Proposed first paragraph of a revised wikipedia androgyne entry. Please add, takeaway tidy up and criticise. Definitely please find some citations or ways of making what we have discussed look 'dead proper'.
Androgyne serves as a blanket term for those individuals who feel that their gender identity does not cleanly fit within the binary gender model. This feeling can be characterised and expressed in a number of different ways. This lack of identification with male or female links it to the concept of genderqueer, although genderqueer is a politicised concept, more often used by those with a wish to destroy the current conception of two genders. Androgyne is simply a term of self-reference from which other notions can follow.
Woah woah. Slow down there. First, you put out some pretty strong words on genderqueers, and I can tell you right now that not all genderqueers are activists seeking to destroy all traces of anything binary about gender. I'm certainly not. Its a nice umbrella term through which people can connect through, just like androgyne for that matter.
Secondly, any person who falls outside the binary is eroding the socially constructed idea of binary gender, whether you are active about it or not. Think about it.
Hi Simon, well personally your description comes close to the way I felt about genders.
QuoteThere is a diversity of ways that an androgyne can feel outside of the binary gender model. Some feel like no gender, some feel like both, while others feel like something else. Some are a blur of gender and some feel they have distinct masculinity and femininity. Some androgynes have a single gender identity; for others gender identity drifts like a mood between masculine and feminine; yet others shift from one distinct identity to another. A change in gender identity may or may not be associated with a change in personality or personal identity.
I wish we had some references. Undecided
I have never heard of the term genderqueer so I am not qualified to quote on that concept.
Cindy
I always though genderqueer was the militant term.
I don't want to disturb the waters here but I do not know if it sounds militant Pica Pica. Or more like using a gender with a dysphoric term together that sounds negative.
Cindy
Wikipedia has a genderqueer entry that is not a subsection and which begins thus:
QuoteGenderqueer or intergender is a gender identity of both, neither or some combination of "man" and/or "woman". In relation to the gender binary (the view that there are only two genders), genderqueer people generally identify as more "both/and" or "neither/nor," rather than "either/or."
It doesn't seem to emphasize the political aspect, though I did not read every word. It says this about related gender terminology
Quote
Androgyne, Intergender, Bigender, Multigender, Third gender, Neuter/Neutrois/Agender, Gender Fluid may also be used to describe where one lies on a gender spectrum or in gender spheres (outside the normal binary genders).
We should make sure that genderqueer is or is not another word for androgyne. I mean, I tend to think of it with a political association, but as pointed out by Kaimialana, it may be better to wipe that connotation from our minds.
Neutrois is just sitting there on the genderqueer page waiting for someone to create an entry for it.
It's probably a personal bit of prejudice. The self proclaimed genderqueers I've personally met were weird abrasive and irritating, self concious subverters of gender, where I always thought of androgyne as something gentler and more personal....seems that conception was just mine though.
Don't get me wrong, there are militant genderqueers, just like there are militant aspects of any culture. And then there are just pollitically active genderqueers. And then there are really shy genderqueers, like myself, who agree that there should be activism (as thats about the only way anyone in the GLBT movements have gotten any sway whatsoever) but don't take part because we are either not good at it, or we feel uncomfortable doing it. In general, the militant aspects can be scary, just like the militant aspects of feminism, for example, or religion.
A term that gets thrown around alot to describe people who are actively working to screw with gender by screwing with peoples concepts of gender is gender->-bleeped-<-. Maybe thats what you were thinking of?
I see androgyne and genderqueer as synonyms, personally.
Okay, on the other hand, I can see your point. However, you are not only generalizing a large group of people, but you are also assuming that any sort of gender subversion is militant, and I get the feeling that you think any sort of binary subversion is wrong, which it certainly isn't.
i am an androgyne, i do not feel that the gender binary is true, but i do believe there is a bodysex binary.
i feel that a lot of those gender-screwers are actually not trying to play with the concepts of gender, which seem to flow fairly easily in the background anyway, but in the binary of bodysex and issues of presentation...I suppose the real point I wish to make is that androgyne is a personal conception and as such does not have to impinge on presentation. It is a personal not public realisation, and gender-screwing, and what i saw as genderqueer were public manifestations of the private realisations. That an androgyne doesn't have to be a genderqueer.
Well, if you need a citation...(Pica Pica, 2007).
You could probably take the bit about genderqueer out entirely and it would not change the point of the paragraph.
but it's an enlightening discussion.
Quote from: Kaimialana on November 11, 2007, 01:04:06 PM
I see androgyne and genderqueer as synonyms, personally.
Mm, yes, I guess. On the other hand,
genderqueer sounds like the opposite of a hypothetical
genderstraight: it presupposes that the binary genders are the norm, so that anything besides the two main genders is non-normal enough to be labelled as queer. Now, English is not my native language, so take this with an appropriate grain of salt, but to me
androgyne is more on equal terms with
male and
female.
Nfr
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 11, 2007, 02:10:58 PM
i am an androgyne, i do not feel that the gender binary is true, but i do believe there is a bodysex binary.
i feel that a lot of those gender-screwers are actually not trying to play with the concepts of gender, which seem to flow fairly easily in the background anyway, but in the binary of bodysex and issues of presentation...I suppose the real point I wish to make is that androgyne is a personal conception and as such does not have to impinge on presentation. It is a personal not public realisation, and gender-screwing, and what i saw as genderqueer were public manifestations of the private realisations. That an androgyne doesn't have to be a genderqueer.
I just caught this, after a night of being away. Okay, if you propose there is a bodysex binary, then where, in your opinion,
do the intersex fit in?
And you are making assumptions again, that people who are genderqueer all walk around genderforking all the time, or even have a presentation that is noticable. Until you can admit you shouldn't be making assumptions on people based upon a few experiences, I am done with this discussion.
Posted on: November 12, 2007, 10:53:23 AM
Actually, NO, I'm not done yet. I'm pretty angry at this point, because I expected better, I made the assumption (which I won't do again) that all Androgynes, Genderqueers, Mixedgenders, Genderforks, or WHATEVER you want to call yourselves, were unjudgemental, understanding and slow to make assumptions of people based on identification labels. I thought such an identification would mark a person who doesn't just ASSUME that, because one person or a couple people or ever EVERY SINGLE PERSON who uses that identification label except ONE, that everyone under that label identifies and behaves and presents and feels the same way about it.
But then, I was right about assuming, because you can't even assume that.
Now I'm done.
You done? :)
Talk bit more after work.
I'm an androgyne and I guess in some ways that means I am gender queer (having a gender that is unusual/uncommon). I'm not sure if that means I am also genderqueer. Certainly the description of genderqueer in wikipedia sounds very similar to androgyne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer
"The term genderqueer is also sometimes used in a broader context as an adjective to refer to any person who challenges gender roles and binary notions of gender."
Also from the wikipedia about genderqueer (not that this is a mark of authority or anything but...) "However, this term can be used to refer to anyone who identifies as transgender, or even someone who identifies as cisgender but whose behavior falls outside the average standard gender norms."
I think genderqueer is a broader term than androgyne. I have also read before that it is a politicised term. It seems to come with a little baggage, but I suppose I fall within the realms of the genderqueer.
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 11, 2007, 02:10:58 PM
i am an androgyne, i do not feel that the gender binary is true, but i do believe there is a bodysex binary.
i feel that a lot of those gender-screwers are actually not trying to play with the concepts of gender, which seem to flow fairly easily in the background anyway, but in the binary of bodysex and issues of presentation...I suppose the real point I wish to make is that androgyne is a personal conception and as such does not have to impinge on presentation. It is a personal not public realisation, and gender-screwing, and what i saw as genderqueer were public manifestations of the private realisations. That an androgyne doesn't have to be a genderqueer.
As a null gender person I qualify as androgyne under the definition you used at the start of this thread... For me my gender identity DOES impinge on presentation. I don't feel comfortable with gendered attributes either way and find an androgynous presentation the only non-dysphoric option. Please don't tell me there is a body sex binary because I NEED another option.
Of all the places to be told I don't exist >.<
I think he meant there is a body sex binary, as in man or woman. There is no androgyne, or null body type as such (though something like Klienfelters syndrome probably comes close to a mixed, but somewhat dysfunctional type). Your gender identity or lack of identity as a null gendered person does not require you to look like it for it to be true. It would be true no matter what you look like, but it does make you want, or need, your external to match the internals.
Okay, kids, it seems like we've gone from a proposed wikipedia entry to an argument over semantics. Tell you what, I'll start a thread for the genderqueer vs. androgyne discussion and then you can fire away. :D
As for the proposed paragraph, for the moment, I would take out the bit about genderqueer. As suggested in the original thread about publicizing ourselves, perhaps it could be listed as a subtopic.
All right...I'm off to create that thread...let's get back to discussion what should be written in the entry. (By the way, I'm in no way trying to lessen the importance of what Kaimialana is saying...I just think it needs it's own threads so that we don't get so off topic on this one)
Quote from: NickSister on November 12, 2007, 06:00:48 PM
I think he meant there is a body sex binary, as in man or woman. There is no androgyne, or null body type as such (though something like Klienfelters syndrome probably comes close to a mixed, but somewhat dysfunctional type). Your gender identity or lack of identity as a null gendered person does not require you to look like it for it to be true. It would be true no matter what you look like, but it does make you want, or need, your external to match the internals.
I think that the existence of intersexed people (dysfunctional or not) really serves as proof that body sex isn't binary either. Know what I mean?
I do agree that sex and gender are separate, they don't have to match for either or both to be true.
Hi, to my experience so far when the subject of androgen comes up, it is usually followed by some type of arguments. I think one person has already been shown the back door to Susan's. I have been interested in the the subject of androgen purely because I believe I was an androgen for most of my life. It was only in the recent four years that I decided to get off the fence and go from male to female. Not that I could of done much except for in the past few years because I was not aware there were places one could go get evaluated in any which way what I was. Maybe an alien neuter from Betelgeuse.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on November 12, 2007, 06:52:48 PM
Hi, to my experience so far when the subject of androgen comes up, it is usually followed by some type of arguments. I think one person has already been shown the back door to Susan's. I have been interested in the the subject of androgen purely because I believe I was an androgen for most of my life. It was only in the recent four years that I decided to get off the fence and go from male to female. Not that I could of done much except for in the past few years because I was not aware there were places one could go get evaluated in any which way what I was. Maybe an alien neuter from Betelgeuse.
Cindy
I don't think this thread is quite an argument, but more of a discussion.
The concept of 'androgyne' is a really confusing one, ask 10 people, and you likely will get 10 different answers. This fact isn't doing much to further acceptance for those identifying as non binary or some form of androgyne. So those of us who identify as such need to have some introspection and discussion to see where our similarities and differences lie, in order to form some sort of explanation for the rest of the world.
I think the motto should be not to exclude further, thats where the arguments start, and feelings get hurt.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,21992.0
Here's the androgyne vs. genderqueer thread. So let's leave this thread for the wikipedia entry and discuss terminology over there. :)
Quote from: Jaimey on November 12, 2007, 07:08:22 PM
Here's the androgyne vs. genderqueer thread. So let's leave this thread for the wikipedia entry and discuss terminology over there. :)
I see your point, but the thing is terminology is important to the wiki article hehehe :laugh:
I agree, it just got really tense in here earlier. I do have one idea though. How about we all submit paragraphs/sentences/sentiments on here? That's what I meant about staying on topic. To me this thread was specifically for creating an entry...and this is a discussion that definitely needs it's own thread. That way everyone can be involved, not just those who read this thread. Don't mind me too much. ;)
Mostly, I'm just really excited about becoming more public.
Hi Jaimey
What was confusing for me was all those other labels I never heard of before. I am not disputing them but it does get a mite confusing when everyone one is discussing 3 or 4 subjects or other labels at the same time then out comes the defences like the quills on a porcupine if you get to close???????. Tanks
Cindy
good idea with the new thread, i always thought i was saying things that were agreed, seems i was very wrong. genderqueer part gladly rescinded, but talks still to be had.
Posted on: November 12, 2007, 11:24:51 PM
But to end my thoughts on this discussion...
I think one of the big problems Kaimialana has with what I have said is my use of assumption.
Assumption is one of the best intellectual tools there are, and it is the one I use the most. It can learn a whole complicated system quickly, it can speed all learning by a long way. It is often correct, and when not correct it often provides a useful model. If it weren't for assumption there would be no knowledge base, because all knowledge was assumed at some point. There would be no hypothesis, there would be no theories.
The only thing with assumption is that it can't argue. Not that it can't back up facts (many argumentative positions can't) but that it can't be close-minded enough to say, 'I am right.' Assumption is incredibly open minded, it says, 'I don't know for sure but...' Assumption is always ready to change it's minds when new data is added.
If you read my comments I have said things like, 'I have thought' 'I always felt', these are assumptions challenged by what you have said and changing. This is the sign of an incredibly open mind, and any suggestion that my mind is closed is a dumb one. I was on the process of re-accessing my information, I was describing what I had thought, how I had started, To be appalled at my close mindedness is just a misunderstanding, and I quick and sudden decision at that.
As for androgyne/genderqueer, I will try and explain the model I had created in the other thread.
knock off the chatter and get back to work everybody.
I guess if we wanted to be clear, we would have to agree that specific words are interchangeable or else string them all together like; androgyne/genderqueer/genderpoke/gender variant and so on. Or, begin every article with the statement that "the term [term used] in this piece is meant to be entirely interchangeable with [alternate term 1], [alternate term 2], and so on.
I'm not saying we must do this, but that we must remember that our condition is unusual in that we have no standardized terminology to rely on and we don't want to misrepresent people who use different terminology and especially do not wish to alienate anyone.
Just a thought.
Rebio iguana
Hi,
I posted this in another thread then decided to delete it and move it here where it belongs.
Before all the tension started around the subject of androgyny, I was only curious about androgyny, and had no idea how volatile this subject can be. I haven't heard about this phenomenon until about two weeks ago, or was it three? It interested me and the reason is that I spent a good many years not facing up to being I was either gender and not caring or even willing to think about it. I was gender neutral, but I believe that after being gender neutral for so many years it was my way of hiding or retreating from being tormented into facing the truth and making a what I saw as a necessary decision to be one or the other.
That was until 7 years ago before I made my choice to be Cindy.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on November 14, 2007, 03:14:28 AM
Hi,
I posted this in another thread then decided to delete it and move it here where it belongs.
Before all the tension started around the subject of androgyny, I was only curious about androgyny, and had no idea how volatile this subject can be. I haven't heard about this phenomenon until about two weeks ago, or was it three? It interested me and the reason is that I spent a good many years not facing up to being I was either gender and not caring or even willing to think about it. I was gender neutral, but I believe that after being gender neutral for so many years it was my way of hiding or retreating from being tormented into facing the truth and making a what I saw as a necessary decision to be one or the other.
That was until 7 years ago before I made my choice to be Cindy.
Cindy
I'm not quite sure what the point of you posting this here is. If you think androgynes are just people who are too scared to admit they're TS then I really don't think that's true in the majority of people here. I faced the truth and transitioned m2f at 25 years old and came to the conclusion that living as a woman wasn't a lot better for me than living as a man. I'm not the only person here who has been prepared to deal with the 'torment' of possibly being a m2f or f2m TS before deciding it wasn't right for me. Fence sitters we're not...
Hi Andrea.
I did not come to this thread to do any of what you accuse me of. If you have read closely at the start of my post that I, only for the first time heard about androgeny was about three weeks ago and some of the topics that were discussed about androgyny got me curious. I am here only as a student, not a teacher or to be a rabble rouser.
Sorry if I stirred up anything I can just as easily remove myself from this thread just as quickly as I came in.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on November 14, 2007, 04:05:19 AM
Hi Andrea.
I did not come to this thread to do any of what you accuse me of. If you have read closely at the start of my post that I, only for the first time heard about androgeny was about three weeks ago and some of the topics that were discussed about androgyny got me curious. I am here only as a student, not a teacher or to be a rabble rouser.
Sorry if I stirred up anything I can just as easily remove myself from this thread just as quickly as I came in.
Cindy
Fair enough, you'll have to excuse me being wary around here... No need to remove yourself :)
Cindy, if you're here to learn about Androgynes, by all means, start asking questions. That's probably the fastest way to get the answers to what you're curious about. You can start a post in this section as many have done before.
You said that you had first heard about the idea of Androgyne just recently, how had you missed all of our previous posts here at Susans. We(Marq and Mia) have been here for over a year now and we haven't exactly been silent in our postings. I can think of a couple of topics about Androgynes that have shown up on some of the more mainstream areas in the last half year or so.
Mia and Marq
Hi Marq and Mia.
First question and only just curious, are you two, well like partners, like in mates? Wing Walker and I are mates. ;D Have been for three years. As for my missing this thread on androgyne I did notice it before except on and off in one thread or another during the past four months after I first came back to Susan's when I ran across the link and got curious and rejoined after 7 years. being away. Anyway I saw some of the postings but just skipped them until I got curious, I get curious a lot. At least curiosity keeps one busy and keeps life interesting.
After I left Susan's, 8 years ago, well you know what it's like, well maybe. Just that one thing can lead to another then ones interests change and of course there was my coming out at work seven years ago, that kept me busy some. but I didn't really start to find out what androgyne was until about three weeks ago where finally it caught my attention and curiosity. Well anyway like I said I only just came here and learned I had many of the traits of androgyne.
The siting on the fence thing I was only referring to myself and no one else. In the end I was getting to be a very lonely person, do you know loneliness can kill? It kills from the inside out. That was what drove me from the fence right into Wing Walkers arms. I don't know what I should be but I knew I had to do something so I decided to go to being Cindy. I have learned what love is and I wouldn't trade the emotions sensitivities that have bloomed within me for any thing in the world. My spirit was awakened with the estrogen, but as far as the binary or the duality of sex goes I don't feel any and don't care for it. The surgery was successful but the sex drive just isn't there, I never had it. I most times just feel moot when it comes to duality of gender and sex goes.
Ok, if I'm in the wrong place then just kindly say so.
Cindy
Please Cindy, browse this section as much as you'd like. They're very happy to have another person reaching out to learn more. The Androgynes and Non-binary's sometimes get met with comments that attempt to invalidate their identities so they're a little jumpy currently. Make sure you state whatever might be misunderstood clearly and you won't get problems.
To answer your question about us, we're something called Two-spirited and Bigendered probably applies as well. Here is a post we constructed a couple weeks back with a good set of information in a question then answer style presentation. If you read through that and you need clarification, we'll be more the enthusiastic about addressing the new questions.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,21444.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,21444.0.html)
As much fun as it would be to repost all that information, pointing you to the topic is more productive.
And again if you have any questions about us or any of the androgynes, you need only ask.
Mia and Marq
There's an extra little blurb about Two-spirited people in my signature but read that other post first and it will make more sense.
Hi again Marg and Mia
I assure you I am quite harmless.
I believe I already know what two spirit is. I am of the Iroquois blood and grew up in and around an Ojibwa reservation and do have some knowledge of the the ancient North American Native traditions and spirituality. Two spirit means a person who has the duality of both souls female and male, but not one or the other but both and both can share the wisdom individually. It is said that a person with such a gift were great medicine among the people and they were given the position of Shaman. Well maybe the description of this legend varies from place to place.
Now this is bringing forth a lot of memories that had been buried within.
I will read the information in the link you have provided. Thank you.
Cindy
Posted on: November 14, 2007, 07:54:14 AM
Well bless my ancestors I believe they just sat up in their grave. I did have a good idea of what the elders were talking about, I now truly know who Marg and Mia are well now wouldn't that just flap you. No offence, just come to a realisation about something. Whooo eee this thread is hot. "Hee, hee" Wow just amazing now this bit of information has brought me to a much closer understanding. My own two feet are planted in two different spiritual dimensions but at the same time they are as one. And the lessons begin, thanks.
I loved the playfulness part, I really enjoy a good hearty laugh. It was my imagination and sense of humor that carried me through the tough years. My sense of humor was also what cut the ice with the folks around town after I came out presenting a female. If I had known this it may very well have turned out quite different. But I don't mind being a girl.
Cindy
We feel if you can't play with someone that close to you all the time, you won't ever enjoy the simplicity of happiness for the sake of being happy. That is why the relationship we share is built upon trust and playfulness. We're certainly glad you had some previous experience with the concept and your enthusiastic response was a joy to read.
Marq and Mia
Hi Marq and Mia
I just added something else in my post at the same time you were posting back. You so right about the simplicity of being happy and playful, geeeee Wing Walker calls it my Id. Well I love my Id it keeps me young. Well a lot of people out there called me weird so that it I just come t accept it and I have found that mischievousness goes well with weird.
Cindy
Quote from: Andra on November 14, 2007, 03:32:41 AM
I faced the truth and transitioned m2f at 25 years old and came to the conclusion that living as a woman wasn't a lot better for me than living as a man. I'm not the only person here who has been prepared to deal with the 'torment' of possibly being a m2f or f2m TS before deciding it wasn't right for me. Fence sitters we're not...
I transitioned m2f in 1993, did rlt, etc for a couple of years, and came to the realization that I wasn't really either gender. The primary difficulty I have isn't with my gender, it's more with society not recognizing me as who I am, as opposed to what my birth certificate says.
zythyra
Hi Zythyra
I really feel for you. I have not run into anything like you describe yet and I pray that it never will. I get along and interact with both males and females out there, but then when I'm out there I am just me, what is within. I run a couple of metaphysical meet ups here down town. I am a bit of a busy body and wouldn't know what to do with myself if I ever found myself idle. That scares me more then anything else. Also wanted to say, nice having connected with you.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on November 14, 2007, 02:31:09 PM
Hi Zythyra
I really feel for you. I have not run into anything like you describe yet and I pray that it never will. I get along and interact with both males and females out there, but then when I'm out there I am just me, what is within. I run a couple of metaphysical meet ups here down town. I am a bit of a busy body and wouldn't know what to do with myself if I ever found myself idle. That scares me more then anything else. Also wanted to say, nice having connected with you.
Cindy,
For the most part, I'm just me, and people respond to me as who I am. I've had various situations in which I could tell that guys don't know how to talk with me as I don't speak their language, and many times that other women talk and react with me as another one of the girls. The pain I feel of not being recognized is on a larger societal level, throughout human history we've existed, and had special roles in other cultures, but that doesn't exist for us in this modern world... at least not yet, perhaps things are changing for the better.
Likewise, it's wonderful connecting with you, I enjoy reading your posts of your unique journey!
Zythyra
Every now and then I feel like being female would make more sense but I know that if I transitioned I'd only be in the same boat in reverse.
But this is getting off topic (if you want to start a conversation in another thread, Cindy, I'd be happy to chat).
Since there's already a Wikipedia page for Bigender, that might be a good place to start work. I'll create an account there and start a definition thread here and hopefully ideas will converge.
got a feeling androgynes will never provide a wholly united front
Hi Y2gender
I am not certain but it appears to me women are more open to accepting the none conforming or different then men do. But I have found that if you are working where there are both men and women. The women will take you in or accept you much quicker then the guys, but the guys eventually will accept you. I works as social worker for 20 years. the last seven years as the gender i present, female. I don't feel any different within but I do feel this gender is more comfortable. I only speak from my own experience and not anyone else's. I just wish there was something I could do that would help your situation.
Hi Simon
Of course we can start another topic if you wish. Sorry I didn't realize I was leading this conversation off Topic. Not very hard to get along with. ;)
Cindy
Let's not become discouraged. There will always be diversions. We only need to remember to stay on target.
I still need to come up with something too.
Topics are meant to veer off.
I like them windy, especially when they went wrong places. I was only trying to start a little bit of clarification, but it turns out I was wrong about a few things. Hate it when that happens :)
Anyway, you can't be in the wrong place if your here
Hi Pica pica, I am not looking to upset any apple carts, but if there is conformity to follow I will do so. But please even when and if this conversation is moved I still am interested in what you have to say. Actually I like it here in the Androgyne threads for now, I like the energy better here for now.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on November 14, 2007, 10:05:43 PM
Hi Pica pica, I am not looking to upset any apple carts, but if there is conformity to follow I will do so. But please even when and if this conversation is moved I still am interested in what you have to say. Actually I like it here in the Androgyne threads for now, I like the energy better here for now.
Cindy
We are the loveliest of all the Earth's peoples and full of love love love. I think I'm trying to say our energy is love. :)
You bet sweets, love turns the world whether the world likes it or not. We all have the capacity to love, to give love which brings Harmony of the spheres of Universe. all is Oneness within the One.
Cindy
Our energy is love?
I thought we existed on hate.
I suppose I better undo the man-traps.
Hi Pica Pica
Silly, we are quite capable to send out love to others as well as healing energy. Man traps???? I am afraid they wouldn't work on me, I am a woman.
Shhhhhhhhh don't tell anyone anyting, they sell women traps just across the street.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on November 14, 2007, 08:45:16 PM
the last seven years as the gender i present, female. I don't feel any different within but I do feel this gender is more comfortable. I only speak from my own experience and not anyone else's. I just wish there was something I could do that would help your situation.
Thanks Cindy, I appreciate your support. When I did RLT, I felt very comfortable as female, way more so than I feel as male. There were a number of reasons for not continuing. Regardless of what gender I might present externally though, I always feel the same, I'm simply me. Probably should talk about this in a different thread though, it's not really on topic.:) Feel free to PM if you wish to chat.
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 15, 2007, 04:19:13 AM
Our energy is love?
I thought we existed on hate.
I suppose I better undo the man-traps.
LOL! I'm safe though, man traps can't catch someone who isn't a man ::)
To get back on topic, I'm feeling rather ambivalent about marketing at the moment. Recent threads remind me that even within our transgendered community, there are many people who don't believe in existence of more than two genders, and consider any of us outside the binary to be merely sitting on the fence in denial until we come to terms with and accept our transsexual reality. I'm going to go put my head under the covers and hibernate for a while... :( >:(
Zythyra
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 15, 2007, 04:19:13 AM
Our energy is love?
I thought we existed on hate.
I suppose I better undo the man-traps.
Nope. All we need is love, love: love is all we need. :)
Don't undo any of the gender-binary-traps yet, one day we'll catch someone and love em, too. We are the androgyne. Resistance is futile, you will be loved.
(Um, am I getting too tired here?)
Nfr
"Hee. hee,"Seshatneferw I love your interpretation of the borgs..
Well I can only say like some have said here I just feel inside that "I am me," I do know one thing and that is the soul that inhabits this body really cares for others. Most of my life I been working some type of support system as counseling for alcoholics, addicts, street people, rescuing moms and children from abusive spouses, and lastly for the past 10 years I worked as a social worker for Mental Health consumers.
Since I retired 2 years ago I have been doing counseling online and even run a couple of message boards. I have for a very long time desired to be female and I have been female, as female as I can for the last 7 years. But as some so correctly put it on these threads is inside, we are just *me.* But I don't mind that because the *me* inside has much love and compassion and caring to share, and quite capable of humor, humor is an international language. Ok I think I managed to go way off topic again.
Hi y2gender
I believe your right about opening another topic, there is so much to learn and share and i do love doing both. Maybe just tittle the new thread. *getting to know who we are.* I will send you a PM in a few. Sorry I sometimes get the keyboard stutters, repeating the same thing. What id can be even more embarrassing is leave a letter out and you have a different word that you didn't need at all. So I will just warn everyone, I am not one of the best typists.
Cindy
man is also a generic term for humankind, just watch it everybody.
Quote from: Rebis on November 12, 2007, 11:05:56 PM
I guess if we wanted to be clear, we would have to agree that specific words are interchangeable or else string them all together like; androgyne/genderqueer/genderpoke/gender variant and so on. Or, begin every article with the statement that "the term [term used] in this piece is meant to be entirely interchangeable with [alternate term 1], [alternate term 2], and so on.
I'm not saying we must do this, but that we must remember that our condition is unusual in that we have no standardized terminology to rely on and we don't want to misrepresent people who use different terminology and especially do not wish to alienate anyone.
Just a thought.
Rebio iguana
I think you're on to something, Rebis. How about using the parts I marked in red in our entry? (polished, of course, but you get the idea) I think we all pretty much agree with those statements.
I think we are off to a good start, we just need to focus on the entry itself and remember that that's what we're trying to create. ;)
Quote from: Jaimey on November 17, 2007, 05:22:38 PM
I think we are off to a good start, we just need to focus on the entry itself and remember that that's what we're trying to create. ;)
good thing you said that because I had forgotten. :)
I feel like a school marm... ;)
Hi all
I just opened a new thread as was suggested to me.
Getting to know one another, androgyny talk.
Do drop in and have a chat.
Cindy
I just had a wonderful idea. First Event is happening January 16-20 in Peabody, Massachusetts. I'm thinking of proposing a workshop "Beyond the Binary", or similar title, that would give voice to gender variant, androgyne, bi-gender, etc people. I envision presenting this in a round table type format. I would love to find a couple of other people to help present this... any volunteers who live in the area?? :) I'm working on writing a proposal.
y2g
Quote from: y2gender on December 09, 2007, 10:20:13 AM
I just had a wonderful idea. First Event is happening January 16-20 in Peabody, Massachusetts. I'm thinking of proposing a workshop "Beyond the Binary", or similar title, that would give voice to gender variant, androgyne, bi-gender, etc people. I envision presenting this in a round table type format. I would love to find a couple of other people to help present this... any volunteers who live in the area?? :) I'm working on writing a proposal.
y2g
Great Zot! Peabody is up by Salem, past Boston. I'll look into getting there.
What do you mean by "present" this? I'm not being silly. I'm curious.
Rebis
Quote from: Rebis on December 09, 2007, 11:00:27 AM
Great Zot! Peabody is up by Salem, past Boston. I'll look into getting there.
What do you mean by "present" this? I'm not being silly. I'm curious.
Rebis
Well, I wouldn't want to be the only person talking for an hour. I'd rather have someone bi-gendered talking about being that, someone who is neutrois talking about their experience, etc. I don't feel qualified to talk about anyone else's gender except my own, and even that might be pushing it ;) If at all possible, I'd also hope to have someone who was female bodied, since I'm not.
zythyra
Quote from: y2gender on December 09, 2007, 11:27:10 AM
Quote from: Rebis on December 09, 2007, 11:00:27 AM
Great Zot! Peabody is up by Salem, past Boston. I'll look into getting there.
What do you mean by "present" this? I'm not being silly. I'm curious.
Rebis
Well, I wouldn't want to be the only person talking for an hour. I'd rather have someone bi-gendered talking about being that, someone who is neutrois talking about their experience, etc. I don't feel qualified to talk about anyone else's gender except my own, and even that might be pushing it ;) If at all possible, I'd also hope to have someone who was female bodied, since I'm not.
zythyra
I'm still having trouble pegging myself. I think I am neutrois but my symptoms have subsided and I have this odd sensation of being afloat.
I have a stupid male body. i really would rather be genderless. I guess I could recall my attempt to get HRT through the clinic when my self image did not match the image that the counselor had for me. He thought I had to be female. I decided to quit it.
I checked and Peabody seems to be only a little further than Framingham which is where I have to haul myself for therapy. I should be able to make it. Even if you don't need me for anything, I can learn some things. I would just need to make sure the SO is okay with it. I do better when I have her on my side.
Rebis
Quote from: Rebis on December 09, 2007, 11:44:01 AM
I'm still having trouble pegging myself. I think I am neutrois but my symptoms have subsided and I have this odd sensation of being afloat.
I have a stupid male body. i really would rather be genderless. I guess I could recall my attempt to get HRT through the clinic when my self image did not match the image that the counselor had for me. He thought I had to be female. I decided to quit it.
I checked and Peabody seems to be only a little further than Framingham which is where I have to haul myself for therapy. I should be able to make it. Even if you don't need me for anything, I can learn some things. I would just need to make sure the SO is okay with it. I do better when I have her on my side.
Rebis
I generally think I'm androgyne, but my perception of gender changes daily :-\ I also reside in a stupid male body :( So it goes.
It would be wonderful having you tell your story.
z
Quote from: y2gender on December 09, 2007, 11:57:25 AM
I generally think I'm androgyne, but my perception of gender changes daily :-\ I also reside in a stupid male body :( So it goes.
It would be wonderful having you tell your story.
z
Okay. Let me know what day. and or time. I'll take it off from my silly job.
:'( that's so far away...
I was thinking that there should be some sort of convention or something for us. We should plan one. Even if it's small, it would be nice to actually meet you all.
I agree. To be fair, there would have to be several that take place in various parts of the world. Maybe some people would be lucky enough to live in places where they could hit 2 or more gatherings.
Quote from: Rebis on December 09, 2007, 12:02:40 PM
Okay. Let me know what day. and or time. I'll take it off from my silly job.
Wonderful! I'll put in a request for Saturday, that would be the best day for us to come down to MA.
Quote from: Jaimey on December 09, 2007, 12:22:58 PM
:'( that's so far away...
I was thinking that there should be some sort of convention or something for us. We should plan one. Even if it's small, it would be nice to actually meet you all.
Yes, we'll have to have a traveling androgyne roadshow to meet everyone. ;D East Coast, west coast, Europe.... hmmmm, need to find a wealthy patron <z wishing for grant that would pay us all salaries for this sort of thing> :angel:
zythyra
Let me know when you get close to Northern California Washington or BC. :laugh:
Cindy
Bagsies for the London stop.
It would be really neat to have a sort of convention but due to certain complications I doubt I could come :( It's something to think about though.
When I win the lottery, I'll fly you all to Louisville. :)
Quote from: Phate on December 09, 2007, 11:06:32 PM
It would be really neat to have a sort of convention but due to certain complications I doubt I could come :( It's something to think about though.
Don't you mean
unconvention? :laugh:
Quote from: Jaimey on December 14, 2007, 06:13:38 PM
When I win the lottery, I'll fly you all to Louisville. :)
That would be lovely!!
Do you think a big bunch of us would attract any attention?
I have met afew androgyne's lately, we do seem to seek each other out. And I am left guessing as well. So this is what it feels like to meet me?? ;D
What a wonderful, diverse world we live in! (got to bottle this feeling, I'm on a high atm)
I think I might be bi-polar!! I'm all over the place!!
hehe...we might, depending on what part of the city we're in. >:D Actually, have any of you seen the Amazing Race on CBS this season? The goth couple are from Louisville and I can tell you that I have seen Kynt in everything from short skirts to corsets to jeans and he doesn't seem to get too much attention walking down the street. :) I should ask him sometime if he identifies as androgyne or if he's familiar with it...