Is or has anyone else watched this? What are your thoughts? I'm about 40 minutes in and it just ended the story of Ellie thus far. As puberty hits the gender dysphoria starts and you start feeling the effects of that. That was so me I felt so much like a girl but at that time no internet no idea that there was a such thing as transgender. Wow...im learning things about myself and remembering things......
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This was in my opinion the best ever aired gender related documentary I've seen. It actually made me proud to be part of the community.
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Quote from: JessicaSondelli on February 06, 2017, 10:20:39 PM
This was in my opinion the best ever aired gender related documentary I've seen. It actually made me proud to be part of the community.
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It is so enlightening and inspirational!
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Watched it last night and thought it was very well done. Thought it was a positive thing that she admitted to being confused and or wrong at times.
For those who missed it, Katie mentioned in the Facebook live Q&A aftershow that it will be streaming on Hulu and Natgeo TV plus they will make it available on their website for free starting February 13 I believe but only for a week.
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It's being re-aired this Friday for those of you who missed it.
National Geographic channel
Friday 10-Feb-2017 at 21:00 America-Eastern time (02:00 UTC Saturday 11-Feb-2017)
I actually teared up in some places. If you can watch it - DO!
Katie Couric really did an excellent job shedding light on our peers and transelders who have and are going through this journey.
There is a younger generation coming up behind us that we must pave the way for.
Please I urge you to watch this program and if you can try to get your S.O.'s and family to watch it as well. It is sooooo educational.
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I'm planning on watching it tonight because Hulu is supposed to have it up. Reading these responses makes me more excited to watch it now.
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I just checked HULU. It's not there yet. I'll keep checking.
I watched it last night too I thought it was pretty well done and did a pretty good job at explaining some things to the cis-world without getting caught up in the details of transitioning. I could relate to a fair amount.
I am currently listening to the audio book of True selves. It is in the same vein as last night's show but a bit more info.
Jeanette
I got to see this Sunday night (see my post in the Arts and Entertainment News forum (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,218990.msg1945239.html#msg1945239))
I thought it could have been better (I'm picky), but it was miles better than I expected and while I haven't seen other popular media documentaries, I'd guess it's miles better than any of them. Remarkably little cluelessness and (thank God!) no "opposing viewpoints."
Oh, and her joint interview with Renee Richards and Hari Nef was priceless!
I watched the show last evening with my wife and son, we thought it was an excellent overview of a very deep and complex topic. Lots of good dialogue came out between the three of us.
However, stories of very young trans people always make me think about my own and other later in life transitioners. As with the young trans kids, and a common story with others on here, I also had those feelings at a young age (~5). However, I wasn't given any rope in my particular environment to express it, and at that time (mid 70's) there was no good information. Also, as one of the trans girls put it ....she had the "guts and voice" to express it. For me, the only answer at the time was hide it with military precision and bury it the best I could. Is the only difference between them and me (us) simply the environment and today's education? Has anyone else considered this?
Another thing that I wonder about is sexuality. "Most" early transitioners identify as straight....however could that be because they were allowed to grow up expressing their proper identity socially and were exposed to the correct hormones before primary puberty? Many late trans people identify as gay or bi. Would we be more likely to be straight if we transitioned as kids? I realize the contemporary thinking is that gender and sexuality aren't linked, but I always wonder if there's more to the story than that.
Thoughts?
Havent seen it. However, i am so happy these things are out there. Truth be told, if there was this much acceptance and awareness growing up I would have probably have looked into much more when these feelings kinda popped up in 2007. I know this may sound pathetic to those who are older then me as this is coming from a millenial but even back in 2007 there was a lot of transphobia. It was either on Maury, ,TLC or something like those channels, somewhere sandwiched in between the girl who wants to live as a human doll or how brother and sister fall in-love or some other odd stuff like that. Now we are being seen as humans who have a legit condition and and are deserving of respect and how we are really not different then cis-people. We are political, musical, successful when given a fair shot. Its just our journeys that are different. If i knew it was ok to be trans in 2007, i garuentee ya i would have came out long before i did in 2014! This is awesome!!!
Quote from: staciM on February 07, 2017, 03:07:41 PM
I watched the show last evening with my wife and son, we thought it was an excellent overview of a very deep and complex topic. Lots of good dialogue came out between the three of us.
However, stories of very young trans people always make me think about my own and other later in life transitioners. As with the young trans kids, and a common story with others on here, I also had those feelings at a young age (~5). However, I wasn't given any rope in my particular environment to express it, and at that time (mid 70's) there was no good information. Also, as one of the trans girls put it ....she had the "guts and voice" to express it. For me, the only answer at the time was hide it with military precision and bury it the best I could. Is the only difference between them and me (us) simply the environment and today's education? Has anyone else considered this?
Another thing that I wonder about is sexuality. "Most" early transitioners identify as straight....however could that be because they were allowed to grow up expressing their proper identity socially and were exposed to the correct hormones before primary puberty? Many late trans people identify as gay or bi. Would we be more likely to be straight if we transitioned as kids? I realize the contemporary thinking is that gender and sexuality aren't linked, but I always wonder if there's more to the story than that.
Thoughts?
That for sure is something to think about. I identify as bi but im 90/95 % attracted to women.
I was attracted to both as a teen but didnt quite understand myself as I was a boy who thought I should be a girl.
I was a late bloomer dating wise probably a junior in High School before having a real date.
If I would have had the internet then and it's resources I would've figured this out a long time ago and saved my current wife a lot of pain and misery.
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Quote from: staciM on February 07, 2017, 03:07:41 PM
However, stories of very young trans people always make me think about my own and other later in life transitioners. As with the young trans kids, and a common story with others on here, I also had those feelings at a young age (~5). However, I wasn't given any rope in my particular environment to express it, and at that time (mid 70's) there was no good information. Also, as one of the trans girls put it ....she had the "guts and voice" to express it. For me, the only answer at the time was hide it with military precision and bury it the best I could. Is the only difference between them and me (us) simply the environment and today's education? Has anyone else considered this?
Oh, I absolutely considered it. In fact it was the primary reason why I struggled with the decision to transition. I wondered whether I was really 'trans enough' to transition if I didn't have the 'guts and voice' to express my feelings at a young age (even though like you I had these feelings since age ~5).
Quote from: staciM on February 07, 2017, 03:07:41 PM
I watched the show last evening with my wife and son, we thought it was an excellent overview of a very deep and complex topic. Lots of good dialogue came out between the three of us.
However, stories of very young trans people always make me think about my own and other later in life transitioners. As with the young trans kids, and a common story with others on here, I also had those feelings at a young age (~5). However, I wasn't given any rope in my particular environment to express it, and at that time (mid 70's) there was no good information. Also, as one of the trans girls put it ....she had the "guts and voice" to express it. For me, the only answer at the time was hide it with military precision and bury it the best I could. Is the only difference between them and me (us) simply the environment and today's education? Has anyone else considered this? And the children will show us the way....
Another thing that I wonder about is sexuality. "Most" early transitioners identify as straight....however could that be because they were allowed to grow up expressing their proper identity socially and were exposed to the correct hormones before primary puberty? Many late trans people identify as gay or bi. Would we be more likely to be straight if we transitioned as kids? I realize the contemporary thinking is that gender and sexuality aren't linked, but I always wonder if there's more to the story than that.
Thoughts?
Yes, I agree that this was an excellent documentary and was triggering for me throughout the show. So much pain and work to overcome those obstacles in our way! More than what it felt like to me is the outstanding and expansive reach of this print and television media to share a humane look at our reality. Bravo National Geographic, science rocks!
We have had a number of threads asking questions or wondering 'what if I transitioned as a child or teen'? Renee Richards had major struggles in 1975 and had to disappear. I did express myself as a kid in the 1950s and considering that there was zero professional assistance or general knowledge about us, i was simply dismissed and told to deal with it. I attempted a transition in the early 90s too. Another exercise in futility for me as i found no mentors or professional assistance then either. I grew up in a family of 15 and had plenty of opportunities to see how my sisters were then so restricted with much fewer options than i experienced. We can imagine all we want but that won't change where we are today and regrets are a downer I won't dwell in long. SO yes the big difference IMO is education and awareness that allows us to demand our freedom to be ourselves and step out of the shadows as so many people have done before us.
Sexual orientation was also once thought to be immutable but there are more than a few who would question that as they allow themselves the freedom to explore and transition. What I do not question is the significance of transitioning early and freely and the multitude of benefits it can bring.
Quote from: JessicaSondelli on February 06, 2017, 10:20:39 PM
This was in my opinion the best ever aired gender related documentary I've seen. It actually made me proud to be part of the community.
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Totally feel the same! Loved it.
As a child I was caught expressing myself and treated. I dearly wish I had been in the modern environment, without the learned fear of being myself or the threat of treatment to "fix" me.
I'm an old MtF, oriented strongly toward females. I suspect a big part of that orientation is conditioned homophobia (Nothing like a religious upbringing,eh?)
In considering my feelings, even if I find a man to be handsome, the idea of the actual act with THAT involved is repulsive to me. Like I said, conditioned homophobia. It extends even to certain accessories with another woman.
I don't know if I could ever be cured of this on my remaining lifetime.
I suspect I'll be celibate. Just me and the cats [emoji192]. But, I'll be myself, and that will be wonderful.
For the children with accepting parents, I hope life will be wonderful. For the others, I will do my damndest to make sure they never have to go through what my generation did.
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Quote from: Michelle_P on February 07, 2017, 06:07:18 PM
I'm an old MtF, oriented strongly toward females. I suspect a big part of that orientation is conditioned homophobia
In considering my feelings, even if I find a man to be handsome, the idea of the actual act with THAT involved is repulsive to me. Like I said, conditioned homophobia. It extends even to certain accessories with another woman.
I suspect I'll be celibate. Just me and the cats [emoji192]. But, I'll be myself, and that will be wonderful.
Michelle,
Your post resonates with me due to you and I being of simuliar age. That universal binary upbringing With all it's taboos on straying outside of the "norm". With it came the guilt and shame when you did stray. It was bad enough having to be secretive and hide my youthful explorations into to the forbidden realm of the female. With 5 sisters at home the opportunities were many and the guilt exacted a high price. Still I persisted.
I too was a product of conditioned homophobia. Unlike you I differ in that I do not find any man attractive though I do imagine myself in the female role receiving the gratification a woman would recieve from her male lover. My would be lovers are all faceless and anonymous. I only desire the sexual fulfillment any woman desires.
My homophobia also extends to women. In retrospect I was never aggressive in the pursuit of girls and women. I wanted to be around them but as an equal. I was never one to treat a girl or woman as a sexual conquest. Probably because I held them in high esteam and treated them with respect. I believe this is why I have never had intercourse with any woman but my ex with one exception. I did indulge one time as a young sailor with a hooker as a lark in the same as another sailor and his chosen partner. Curiosity won out.
Like you Michelle, I too think I shall remain celibate in my old age. What's a few more year tacked onto the more than 20 since life with my wife ended. Like you, if I can go through with transitioning and thereby let my hiden self live for the few years I have left I believe I can me at peace with myself. It may cost me everything I hold dear but I will be her at last.
Jeanette
PS I like cats too ;)
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 07, 2017, 06:07:18 PM
I'm an old MtF, oriented strongly toward females. I suspect a big part of that orientation is conditioned homophobia (Nothing like a religious upbringing,eh?)
I was at a support group meeting, and one of the women who'd recently had SRS was saying that she was interested in penises now, but wasn't interested in being intimate with a man. That sort of expresses how I feel these days (for me, SRS is probably a year a way, if not more.) A woman with a penis would be fine. (And there's always strap-ons.)
For me, it's less homophobia than an intense wariness of (cis) men. My experience of masculinity and of being in male groups was so awful (traumatic, even), that I simply don't feel safe around men. I say "cis men," because I've gotten to know a number of trans men who don't exhibit whatever it is that triggers my alarms.
For that matter, I've had gay trans men say they're afraid of men, because they're aware of how often apparently non-violent men can suddenly turn violent if they feel their masculinity is threatened. (And you never know what they'll see as a thread to their masculinity.)
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 07, 2017, 06:07:18 PM
I suspect I'll be celibate. Just me and the cats [emoji192]. But, I'll be myself, and that will be wonderful.
When I separated from my wife, I remember walking out the door of my apartment and thinking, I'd rather be celebate for the rest of my life than go through what I went through in my marriage.
Quote from: Michelle_P on February 07, 2017, 06:07:18 PM
For the children with accepting parents, I hope life will be wonderful. For the others, I will do my damndest to make sure they never have to go through what my generation did.
Word.
And not just around transness. Children push all my protectiveness buttons.
My non-believing parents are going to watch it Friday. Let's see what Saturday's phone/email conversation is. Should be interesting.
Some of the recent posts in this thread regarding sexual orientation are alarming to me. If sexual orientation really is 'conditioned', then why for example doesn't reparative therapy work on gays and lesbians?
I don't believe that sexual orientation is conditioned at all. I believe it is immutable from birth, much like gender identity.
While I agree that gender is set at birth, bisexuals can add confusion. I worked with a guy who was bisexual and his attraction was more toward other males but for social reasons, he entered a relationship with a woman. I have heard numbers that say a third of the population is bisexual. It's possible as children social pressure might push a bisexual one direction or the other. Will they retain that through out life? Only time will tell. You have to remember that when I transitioned, you didn't start treatment until you were 18 years old. Most of the children who transitioned in their teens or younger may be in their twenties or younger. As they get older, we may discover many are bisexual but hadn't had the time to explore their feelings.
My personal experience with sexuality was that I chose which way to go when I was 16. Perhaps I'm bisexual; I'm not sure. Maybe it was just a choice out of self preservation. But as a teenager I found myself in a situation where one of my male friends was making some aggressive sexual advances and I felt way more aroused than I did when I was making sexual advances towards girls (which was a rather rare occurrence anyway, LOL). But it was a line I couldn't cross in 1976 because I instinctively felt that once crossed there was no going back. So I shut it down letting it exist in my mind only since then. It's still there too, as strong as ever.
I'm pretty sure that had some sort of transition been remotely available then and had my own life circumstances been different at the time, I would have gone with it with no hesitation. I won't write the story of the details right now but my life circumstances at that time felt extremely oppressive and I perceived an overwhelming need to conform - to everything. Sometimes I think that my strong need to conform then was a great personal weakness.
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves
Quote from: Mirya on February 07, 2017, 11:56:17 PM
Some of the recent posts in this thread regarding sexual orientation are alarming to me. If sexual orientation really is 'conditioned', then why for example doesn't reparative therapy work on gays and lesbians?
I don't believe that sexual orientation is conditioned at all. I believe it is immutable from birth, much like gender identity.
I agree, the only possible alternative I woulds say is that i suppose some peoples sexuality and gender could be more fluid. Still, i do not beleive sexuality is conditioned
Quote from: SailorMars1994 on February 08, 2017, 08:12:12 AM
I agree, the only possible alternative I woulds say is that i suppose some peoples sexuality and gender could be more fluid. Still, i do not beleive sexuality is conditioned
I was the one that started this conversation about sexuality. I'm certainly interested in all viewpoints, open discussion is why I posed the theory.
I'm suspecting that the overwhelming percentage of the human species is bisexual but sways in one direction or another naturally (imprinted) while some of that is influenced by upbringing, society and possibly hormone balance.
For instance, this forum has several examples of late stage transitioners who were married to woman, had families, came out as trans, started HRT and now live as straight woman, some have re-married men. As my bisexual theory goes, I'm suspecting that their original upbringing and society pushes them to be straight men, while transition, HRT and their new expression allowed them to sway the other way. I'm not sure if "conditioning" is the correct word, but I believe external influences had some impact.
Another example, my wife and I met as teenagers. Even though my gender identity was in question from an early age, to the outside world we both identified as a straight cis-gender couple. My wife was originally attracted to men (and my man plumbing), or she wouldn't be with me in the first place. As the years went on and my true gender was able to be expressed in the home and bedroom, my wife's sexuality has swayed and she now identifies as a lesbian. Now, she couldn't imagine herself with a man. As for me, I believe my upbringing has influenced my preference for woman. Even though I can find attraction to male bodies and their sexual anatomy is of interest, I could NEVER see myself in an emotional relationship with a man....and my curiosity is that if my straight male upbringing, society and expectations have made me think that way...."conditioning" if you will. For me in particular, it feels like that "conditioning" has permanently imprinted in me and no reverse conditioning would change that.
Just a theory :)
To further hijack the thread I suggest you are on to something Staci. I have been trans and queer all my life with or without the boxy labels. Being old as dirt I have been immersed in queer culture since the 60s. Working hot lines and support groups my experience is that many of us are indeed technically bi or pan sexual. I have known many people who have come out as teens and some who finally get out of the closet as 70 year olds! We know plenty of people who have been in heterosexual married relationships with children and then come out lesbian or gay. Over my years here I have been amused by folks who started out as near homophobes (be with guys, oh ick, never!) only to find a deepening interest in them later in transition. I suggest many people have had furtive relationships that they may never acknowledge or feelings they may never act on. It is also apparent that many of us have a somewhat political affinity to that gay, lesbian or straight label that may not reveal the whole story. Goodness, Kinsey and company documented this thru research and bell curve graphs decades ago. Labels work for soup cans, not so much for people. ;D
Hmmmm... I guess this makes some sense now. Intresting to hear your girls accounts and experiences :) !
This orientation discussions like this concern me also - I believe the only correct answer can be is that it is immutable from birth AND it is the result of conditioning AND that orientation is a continuum not an absolute. Believing that though i am very wary of those that would try and change people and conversion therapy is truly evil in my opinion. I'm bisexual and have known that most of my life. The concept of only being attracted to one gender is a bit foreign to me, but i totally love and respect that in people. Was i bisexual in the womb? Probably.
Sometimes orientation is situational too. Plop a heterosexual person down in prison for many years and they will often choose love interests of the same gender.
Few things invoke such strong emotion as sexual orientation in people. We often use words like "repulsive" instead of softer phrases like " Not my thing " , perhaps because of biological reasons.
Bisexuals do raise a difficulty in painting sexual orientation as absolute. Non-binary and Genderfluid folks sort of do the same thing for the idea of hard coded gender.
The gender identity and orientation questions are tough. Frankly, I think both are largely set in the primitive regions of the brain during the initialization phase, from a few weeks past conception to roughly birth. On top of this is a layer of cultural conditioning, which may or may not conflict with the biological settings.
I know that in my case, the cultural conditioning strongly conflicted with my gender identity, and took many years to break down in a very unpleasant process of denial, dysphoria and depression.
I am starting to suspect that the same thing might be true regarding my orientation. There is a very strong homophobic cultural conditioning, a product of my upbringing in 1950s American Suburbia. My underlying biological orientation may very well differ, with the conflict expressed as my tendency towards celibacy and low libido. My therapist and I will be poking at this a bit to see if there is anything to it. Hey, I could be bi for all I know, and the filter of cultural conditioning has left me like this.
There is no one single magical answer. We stand at the intersection of many different parameters, no two of us really alike.