Hi ladies,
Recently I have been pondering something, and I would like your opinion.
I came out to my wife a few weeks ago. She was very clear to me: "->-bleeped-<- is the only thing I would not ever accept". So that put me in a dilemma: I don't want to leave her, she is the most important thing to me, to the point I was willing to put down my dream of transitioning so that we can "live happily ever after". But, I don't know if I can, or how long I can hold it off until it blows up.
I know her, and I think it is possible that in a few years she may get used to the idea and could be willing to accept the transition. But then I was thinking: If that happens, and this is the thing I wanted the most to happen, transition by her side... would it be fair to transfer the burden to her instead? I would be the one fulfilling my dream, but she would probably lose everyone else, her sex life, virtually give up everything and having to see something that makes her unhappy, seeing her husband turn into her wife...
Am I being too selfish to want her to go through this transition with me? Or, would it be better for everyone if we just part ways? Have anyone of you faced the same dilemma?
You should ask her what she wants. Be open, honest, and communicate; we're just people on the internet and don't have a true understanding of the dynamics you and your wife share. I wish I hadn't pushed my wife; I think we would have both been happier in the long run.
If transitioning is something you want to pursue, tell her. If you don't want her to leave, tell her. Just understand that she knows what is best for her, just as you know what's best for you.
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I have been with my husband since -98. He does not know yet. But soon he will.
I have supressed the real me for over 30 years. I thought 10 years ago that I can handle this, live happily ever after. Forget my needs and focus on family.
BUT to keep getting reminded of who I am not, every day, is painful. I can't force this to go away. Noone can. It is me. I need to be me to be whole.
When I decided to transition, including my then wife was not an option. For some reason, I had to break free. I know that that fateful day I walked out, I was turning my back on her, her family, my financial stability. Sitting in a motel room that night, I thought what the hell did I just do.
First step I took, look for a therapist...and in my city, I was lucky to have a gender therapist. Those therapy sessions were the foundation of what I needed to do.
That was late 2007 and into 2008...and look at me now.
I have a new life, a house again, a new partner. I feel alive, no lying, no hiding....finally being me.
Please don't take my experience as to what you should do. I do recommend talking to someone professionally.
Yes, leave your wife, go to work or talk this over with a friend or therapist and then come home and show her that "she is the most important thing to me".
How do we do that? You may "know her" and yet she may surprise you too. I hope you will give each other plenty of time to digest and discuss what is important to both of you. If you do go your own ways doing so as people who love one another or can care about each other as friends rather than adversaries could save a lot of grief and $.
We have heard from plenty of once married people who can still be friends and support one another thru tuff stuff. Transitioning takes focus, self awareness and self acceptance IMO but does not boil down to simple selfishness.
QuoteShould I leave my wife and start over?
No, not yet, at least. Everyone needs time to adjust to this. Both of you do. It is a marathon, not a sprint.
My wife was not on the bandwagon from the start (far from it!), but she is now. Not everyone is the same, but you will never know if you kick her to the curb without understanding that it is an adjustment for both of you
if you are to stay together. My wife and I are besties, and lovers, and have been married 26 years now. If I had knee jerked at her first reaction -within the first month- we likely would not still be together.
My 0.02¢
I am not going to tell you what you should or should not do. Only you can decide that.
Neither option is good. You have to weigh the costs: is the cost of leaving her worse than the cost of postponing or giving up on transition? Only you can know what those costs are and can weigh them against each other.
If your wife actually said that: "->-bleeped-<- is the only thing I would not ever accept" rather than "Transitioning is the only thing I would not ever accept", then she is saying that she doesn't accept you as yourself. You can decide not to transition, but none of us can decide not to be transgender. It's who we are.
It is indeed a more complex question that can be adequately addressed without counseling or therapy. I will say that guilt over her need to change, should be tempered with the understanding that all married folks must face change in their partners. Some changes are small and still get under peoples skin, some changes are large and have to be learn to be dealt with.
They are all correct that you are the only one to say what to do. The only thing I would warn you about is fooling yourself that these feelings will go away. If you stonewall this issue and pretend it isn't there you could be 10 years down the road and no longer be able to suppress the feelings. Then it will be even harder for both of you.
If it is possible to work it out, she will need to know everything. You could possibly find your answers (transition or not) together. If it is not possible for things to work between you two, isn't it better for the split sooner, so you can both get on with your lives.
You have nothing to feel bad about. Being trans is not something you asked for. It is something you are trying to cope with. You are not forcing her to do anything. She is an adult. If you transition, she will make a choice. She has no right to guilt you about it, unless you disrespect her or are insensitive to her feelings.
As far as her proclamation goes, maybe she means it, maybe she doesn't. All you can do is explain, be patient with her, and value her feelings. The more you are there for her, the better your chances she will be there for you.
It is hard but try to stay positive.
Moni
There was a long story from a SO on here that was recently updated....it was a few years in the making. Basically it started with her not understanding or supporting a transition whatsoever. She thought her "husband" was crazy and could never be a woman. It went on with updates and you could see the slow acceptance while HRT started. In the end it seems like they are quite happy in their new life together. Give your wife some time if the relationship is important to you....you never know how her attitude can change.
My personal story is somewhat similar. A few years ago I brought up a need to transition and my wife was dead set against it. After I shelved it and sunk deeper into depression it came up again. At that point we had months of intense discussions and it turned out she was less concerned with a transition and her pushback was related to some other things going on in our relationship. Now, she is my biggest transition supporter....my rock when I'm having tough days....and we are closer now than any time in our relationship.
Give it time and help her understand.
I was married to the love of my life. It didn't last as I was sneaking around trying to find a way to be by myself so I could feel relaxed. By that I mean, I liked to wear femme clothes and makeup. I had anger issues. No, not with her, life in general. I always felt no one understands me. Counseling is a good thing. Take her to your gender therapist with you. This gives you both the facts to create an informed decision. I would not just arbitrarily give up, like I did the last time. One advantage is I am older, and my 2nd wife and I had our children 27 years ago. By the time my daughter was three I was already too sickly (heart related) for sex. It's ironic that what made me sick also caused my sexual confusion.
Dawn
gallux,
I just read your introductory post from 2 months ago. Back then, you wrote 'I have been questioning whether I am trans or not'. You also wrote 'I am not really uncomfortable with my life and I don't feel that I have been born in the wrong body.'
And then in a separate thread, just 3 weeks ago, you wrote about sending an email to a therapist to potentially begin a dialogue. So that means, at best, you've only had about 2 weeks of therapy?
And just 2 weeks ago, you wrote in another post that you haven't even told anyone in your family yet...
How did you move so quickly those events to today, where you are considering leaving your wife and starting over?! What changed? Did something drastic happen in your life, or are you just floating ideas? Unlike many of the people who have posted here, I am a bit skeptical after reading your history of posts. You keep referring to transitioning as a "dream" (a word you keep using), as if it's some kind of wonderful goal to aspire to. It's not. Most, if not all, trans women transition because we need to. Because we have no other choice.
I think you should talk to your therapist more. And if there are any nearby, attend a local transgender support group and see firsthand if this is the life you want need to live.
Well it would be easier to part ways. But nothing worth doing is ever just easy.
I have been reading the SO section of the site for a long time and the stories that disturb me the most are when the person who is transgender walks out on their partner. When you said your wedding vows, it was for better or worst, in sickness and in health. I feel we should try to find a place in our life for our SO. If the SO decides to end it, you will have a clear conscious that you attempted every thing you could to make it work. I know only about half the couple will stay together but you still should try to be a couple that remains together.
Quote from: Dena on February 07, 2017, 07:30:05 PM
I have been reading the SO section of the site for a long time and the stories that disturb me the most are when the person who is transgender walks out on their partner. When you said your wedding vows, it was for better or worst, in sickness and in health. I feel we should try to find a place in our life for our SO. If the SO decides to end it, you will have a clear conscious that you attempted every thing you could to make it work. I know only about half the couple will stay together but you still should try to be a couple that remains together.
Wow, not too judgmental.
For your information, I have a clear conscience.
50% stay together? Doubt that.
I find it interesting since joining this site a month ago, that there is way more judgment here than in the real world. Funny, I would have expected more understanding, or a need to understand, I didn't come here to be told I didn't try hard enough in my marriage. Yes, you didn't name me, but it's clear that those who don't try are giving up.
I was stubborn and kept hoping from some improvement at home. My wife went to one therapy session, hated it when the therapist asked her about her feelings rather than confirm it was all my fault, and refused to go again. I still hoped for a change, and got it last October, when she gave mom a deadline to get out.
So, technically I left my wife and started over, but at her insistence. I don't blame myself, and I hope nobody else does. She wanted me gone from her life, and I eventually complied.
I've been alone all my life and wish I hadn't been
I would lay it on the line just like she did. You have to realize that she didn't get into a relationship with the female you. Her telling you that is her just being honest. If that truly is the case then it doesn't sound like you are part of her future wether or not you suppress who you are or not.
I'm both bi-gender and spouse, and I've been through this twice. First when my husband first came out to me 18 years ago, and again in December when he announced he needed to take a first step to transitioning.
The first two weeks were ROUGH the first time. You think your emotions are rough right now? You just dropped her world out from under her. Yours are not the only difficult thoughts and feelings right now. Your wife will need time and probably counseling, and a lot of education to understand the scientific cause, your feelings, and to be able to sort out her own feelings, her fears and her idea of her future either way. In my case counseling and lots of talk revealed that I was so upset about it because I also have gender issues, which were part of the reason I reacted so badly.
The second reveal was much the same. Even though his being transgender was not news to me, for about two days I was numb and in shock. On the third day my brain started functioning again and I began working through it all. Still, the idea of being married to a woman was the end of my world. As a bi-gender person I need a *man* in my life as a foil/support for my feminine side, to make her feel feminine while my masculine side's pressures often makes me feel dysphoric, neither here nor there. As long as I can perceive my husband as masculine/male, I'm okay.
So, we worked together, and with a therapist, to come up with a solution to keep our 29 years as a romantic couple intact, which includes a lot of things not common to trans individuals, such as not switching gender pronouns or names. We both know there may come a day when either my own dysphoria or his become too much and one or the other of us goes too far to allow our relationship to keep working, but we're battling as hard as we can to save our marriage. It's worth it.
Quote from: Nina_Ottawa on February 07, 2017, 07:58:45 PM
Wow, not too judgmental.
For your information, I have a clear conscience.
50% stay together? Doubt that.
I find it interesting since joining this site a month ago, that there is way more judgment here than in the real world. Funny, I would have expected more understanding, or a need to understand, I didn't come here to be told I didn't try hard enough in my marriage. Yes, you didn't name me, but it's clear that those who don't try are giving up.
Nina, I think you are spot on that there is much more judgement on this forum than out in the real world. Totally. So much so that it turned me off of this site for some time. But, then I upped my apathy level and returned. I hope you stay. I appreciate your input.
As a side note, I mentioned this thread to my wife on the way home from work yesterday (because we are attached at the hip and even ride to work everyday together) and she said "Yea, I can totally see why someone would want a clean break to start their life as a woman/man". It was refreshing to hear her, without judgement, express understanding for someone going through transition. So, there's a real world reaction for ya. ;)
I would never tell you what to do, that is not my place as you already know the answer you just want confirmation.
What I do know however is that whilst I would fight for those I love with tooth and nail, I also know that if I love them sometimes I need to let them go.
I also know that love is based on honesty and that requires being honest to yourself first and foremost.
The 50% figure is real. People should of course make an effort to stay together, relationships are always hard work no matter what they face. Isolation is bad for us. Practically that is not always possible though and sometimes when we achieve true self-awareness, we realize what we wanted all along was something different. People should not feel judged no matter what their choice.
My wife and I are one of the 50% that have stayed together- totally changed lives for both of us, but we became closer in so many ways because of my transition. When we think about what we have been through, we often laugh in marvel at it. We are still a work and progress and likely will always be.
The 50% number is kinda misleading. Yes the number is 50% (+/- some) BUT break down marriages that survive based upon the number of years married? The shorter the marriage the less likely people are to stay together. Conversely the longer the marriage the more likely they are to stay married.
The more people have invested in a marriage (both emotionally and economically) the more of a draw exists to keep the marriage together. Both therapists I've gone to have told me the same and it kinda makes sense.
Quote from: Denise on February 08, 2017, 02:16:13 PM
The 50% number is kinda misleading. Yes the number is 50% (+/- some) BUT break down marriages that survive based upon the number of years married? The shorter the marriage the less likely people are to stay together. Conversely the longer the marriage the more likely they are to stay married.
The more people have invested in a marriage (both emotionally and economically) the more of a draw exists to keep the marriage together. Both therapists I've gone to have told me the same and it kinda makes sense.
I totally agree. If my husband had told me in the first year or two of our relationship/marriage, I would have been gone so fast it would have made my head spin. Now, after 29 years of an incredibly solid relationship, he's my best friend and my entire life, leaving him would be as painful or more painful than staying.
Thankfully he is of a mind to give up some of the things he really wants for me, and I am willing to give up things I want for him. If no one is willing to budge, if both partners aren't willing to give up some portions of their personal needs, then the relationship would be doomed.
Where in the world are people coming up with this idea that 50% of marriages survive transition? How many post-transition women do you really know personally?
Based on my conversations with trans women in real life, I'd estimate that the number is more like 10%, at best.
Quote from: Mirya on February 08, 2017, 04:20:11 PM
Where in the world are people coming up with this idea that 50% of marriages survive transition? How many post-transition women do you really know personally?
Based on my conversations with trans women in real life, I'd estimate that the number is more like 10%, at best.
Citing a credible source seems reasonable as I understood that about 50% of
all marriages end in divorce in the serial monogamy of the USA ;D Of course survival for how long is a reasonable question too?
From the 2015 National Transgender Survey (USA)
"Those who were out to a spouse or partner were asked whether a spouse or partner had ended their relationship because they were transgender. More than a quarter (27%) reported that a spouse or partner ended their relationship solely or partly because they were transgender, including 10% who had a relationship end solely because they were transgender."
My wife has known for going on 29 yrs and we are still together,it's been given and take but we are making it work. I don't believe in divorce and My wife doesn't either,she is my best friend and I'm hers and life with our each other would not work for either of us. I've seen marriages end when grs is involved, the wife could handle the cross dressing but not the full on change so the marriage ended and they wound up with a new spouse and moved on.
Quote from: gallux on February 07, 2017, 02:29:45 PM
Hi ladies,
Recently I have been pondering something, and I would like your opinion.
I came out to my wife a few weeks ago. She was very clear to me: "->-bleeped-<- is the only thing I would not ever accept". So that put me in a dilemma: I don't want to leave her, she is the most important thing to me, to the point I was willing to put down my dream of transitioning so that we can "live happily ever after". But, I don't know if I can, or how long I can hold it off until it blows up.
I know her, and I think it is possible that in a few years she may get used to the idea and could be willing to accept the transition. But then I was thinking: If that happens, and this is the thing I wanted the most to happen, transition by her side... would it be fair to transfer the burden to her instead? I would be the one fulfilling my dream, but she would probably lose everyone else, her sex life, virtually give up everything and having to see something that makes her unhappy, seeing her husband turn into her wife...
Am I being too selfish to want her to go through this transition with me? Or, would it be better for everyone if we just part ways? Have anyone of you faced the same dilemma?
If you deeply love your wife, no! At least until you know more. I lost my soulmate of 30 years and if i had it to do over again, i would choose her and manage my depression and suicidal ideations with a straight jacket. I am fully integrated.. completely living my life as Kiersten but remain deeply saddened, grieving her loss still each and every day. We all do what we must but don't lull yourself into thinking you are part of the 1% who can have both. Understand and accept your loss before making your decision. Jmo.
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Divorce is "permanent".
Can it wait?
Is there some reason to do it now?
Is there something in the relationship that means it must end?
Consider going one more day.... If that thought is upsetting or causes you stress or... pick what ever your threshold is and wait until that day occurs. Until then, why divorce?
In my case we're under the assumption that "unless we find someone else, but neither of us is actively looking," we'll stay married. Some day that may change but for now we have each other's company and companionship and comfort.
Everyone's life experience is different so no one can tell you what is right for you.
I can only tell you my position. Right now my wife and I go back and forth. We both have a lot of adjusting to do if we want to make it work. The status quo has shifted. She is seeing my true deeply hidden self. She may find that my transition will not suit her needs. I certainly cannot fault her if that happens. In the mean time neither of us can see a life without the other in it. We are both dealing with our own insecurities. Her because the dynamic of life has changed, me because I have never let myself be seen before.
If your relationship has otherwise been good for you and you wish to try to keep it together, then open communication will be the only way forward. If you know that the relationship is not working for you, then no one should fault you for doing what is best for you. Just consider your actions carefully before you implement them. Know that you are prepared for the result of your choices whatever they might be. When you are ready, you will know what path is right for you.
I would also note that many times we MTFs look at our wives needs with our emotions, our empathy, and the societal norm impressed upon us from being raised as males. While women typically celebrate each other for leaving a bad relationship, we often revert to thinking one is quitting when they decide to leave their female spouse. A bad situation is a bad situation. If someone knows their situation is wrong, then it's better to end it than to live in yet another lie. We have all suffered so long living a life to fit the expectations of others. Doing so breaks us down and destroys a persons sprit. No one should have to live a lie for another persons expectations.
I wouldn't assume women celebrate leaving a bad relationship. That depends on what kind of "bad" that relationship is and how it ended. For some the loss of a spouse due to transitioning is the end of the world, literally.
Don't assume only the transgender spouse has it bad. One of the invisible statistics out there is the suicide rate of spouses of transgender. I don't even know if anyone has studied it. Like usual, the CIS spouse is ignored, unimportant unless they're cheerleading for their transgender spouse. I'm a member of an SO-only private forum, and we just lost our original moderator to suicide after her spouse's transition ended their relationship. Three others admitted to suicide attempts for the same reason. They could not continue their life without the *man* they loved, and could not envision any way to rebuild their lives.
For many of the women in the forum a husband transitioning is the same as losing a husband to death. It's the same grieving process, and that the common term is that the "woman who killed him" is still walking around, which is more than some can take.
Time together in a relationship is just as an important factor as the relationship itself. Plus one big missing fact needed. Ask any partner after having the T-Bomb dropped. I cannot tell you how many times my wife said "If I only knew....." And she did know of my gender issues, failed transition experiments, till finally (settling on) being Just a CD.
Throw in a few decades of life together, intertwined lives, plenty of shared hopes wishes and dreams of a future together etc. and the game changes drastically. Of course, if there is no real love after this amount of time....
My wife is far from thrilled about the path I am on. Even less thrilled seeing how this 6ft tall big everything "guy" can clean up nicely with little work, and easily pass.
My wife is very thrilled how much I've grown as a person since taking on the trans beast for real. How I've found joy. How most days I am happy and not that sad, "angry" thing I used to be. My greatest fear in life now is reverting back to that "Thing" I was. I still wish I wasn't trans, or as trans as I am, or trans enough to "Need" to do what I am today. I also wish I was about 5'6", 100 or so lbs, knock out figure, long red curly hair, cutsey voice, etc.. Neither of those I can change.
My wife has searched several SO forums looking for splice and information. She has told me similar stories. She has commented that most of the wives of mtf trans people on the forums she looked at feel their spouse was totally selfish. They were angry because their spouse changed and they didn't want change, because their spouse hid away their most inner person, because their "man" did this to them. Many consider being trans to be a mental illness, a sick disgusting fetish. For them it may be their easiest way to deal with the change is to focus their anger at their spouse. If that is the situation no one can blame the spouse for pulling away and even leaving the relationship.
What many female spouses of mtf do not see is their "man" was never a man to begin with. They continue to see that person as a male and continue to have the societal expectations of a male spouse. Hence I can see their feelings of the "woman who killed their man" being real to them.
What they do not see is how while their spouse may be selfish, they themselves are very selfish as well. They are angry because deep down they wanted their "man" to continue to play the part they expected of them. While they may not be able to see it in themselves, they desired their "husband" to stay the same and continue to play the part no matter how much the "husband" suffers inside. They cannot come to terms that their "husband" was never masculine mentally to begin with.
(I'm going to try to put this in an objective viewpoint. I may fail at doing this si please do not take offense. There are as many viewpoints to a situation as there are people involved)
this is an extension of male/female relations that society impresses on us. Many times wives will have their husbands do many things they could do themselves around the house for instance. Men do this and are expected to "prove" their love and commitment by their daily actions. A male refusing to comply with the females request is a guaranteed argument in a cis couple. This is so true it is commonly used as comedic material in entertainment. The selfishness of the mtf is their refusal to do what the wife wants in their life situation. This gets felt as the mtf "husband" pulling away or abandoning the wife's needs or wants. To the mtf this feels like the wife is trying to put them back in that cage they have suffered in for so long. If you look at most any cis relationship, there are many behaviors that the female gets away with. If a male speaks down to the female it is thought of as a bad relationship. If the female speaks down to the male it's considered "normal, nagging, ect" but the male Is expected to accept it by societal norms.
Then there's sex. Cis wives have these expectations of their husbands want for sex. Aside from the normal change males experience from teenage to later life, many mtf value sex itself far less. For me, I need to feel emotionally secure before I even care about the act of sex. This is contrary to the expectation many cis women have for a cis man. Maybe I don't really know what a cis male does or doesn't want sexually, but personally my needs were far from my wife's expectations for me. This caused many issues Thoughout our marriage. Enough that when I first came out to her I really was wanting to get her to just understand me. After ten years together she still could not get my sexual nature until I started breaking down and admitting my deepest darkest secret to her. Obviousy I it didn't fix things but she said now much of our disfunction makes sense to her. Of course then she told me how she blamed herself for our sexual issues. Sometimes she gets angry at me because no matter how many times I tried to explain my sexual feelings to her she never could understand and so blamed herself for the way I did not react to things the way She expected. Again we were caught in the trap of what society told us each to expect from the other in a relationship.
It is a very very hard situation for all involved.
Quote from: Cailan Jade on February 08, 2017, 11:26:29 PM
I wouldn't assume women celebrate leaving a bad relationship. That depends on what kind of "bad" that relationship is and how it ended. For some the loss of a spouse due to transitioning is the end of the world, literally.
Don't assume only the transgender spouse has it bad. One of the invisible statistics out there is the suicide rate of spouses of transgender. I don't even know if anyone has studied it. Like usual, the CIS spouse is ignored, unimportant unless they're cheerleading for their transgender spouse. I'm a member of an SO-only private forum, and we just lost our original moderator to suicide after her spouse's transition ended their relationship. Three others admitted to suicide attempts for the same reason. They could not continue their life without the *man* they loved, and could not envision any way to rebuild their lives.
For many of the women in the forum a husband transitioning is the same as losing a husband to death. It's the same grieving process, and that the common term is that the "woman who killed him" is still walking around, which is more than some can take.
Spot on!
My wife told me about her grieving process for the man she married. She has mentioned it a several times in our philosophical discussions about our transition (I say 'our' because it was a transition for both of us). It was literally the death of the man she married. The SO is the missed part of the transition equation and I am very empathetic to this negligence.
Quote from: Mirya on February 07, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
gallux,
I just read your introductory post from 2 months ago. Back then, you wrote 'I have been questioning whether I am trans or not'. You also wrote 'I am not really uncomfortable with my life and I don't feel that I have been born in the wrong body.'
And then in a separate thread, just 3 weeks ago, you wrote about sending an email to a therapist to potentially begin a dialogue. So that means, at best, you've only had about 2 weeks of therapy?
And just 2 weeks ago, you wrote in another post that you haven't even told anyone in your family yet...
How did you move so quickly those events to today, where you are considering leaving your wife and starting over?! What changed? Did something drastic happen in your life, or are you just floating ideas? Unlike many of the people who have posted here, I am a bit skeptical after reading your history of posts. You keep referring to transitioning as a "dream" (a word you keep using), as if it's some kind of wonderful goal to aspire to. It's not. Most, if not all, trans women transition because we need to. Because we have no other choice.
I think you should talk to your therapist more. And if there are any nearby, attend a local transgender support group and see firsthand if this is the life you want need to live.
Hi Mirya, I want to thank you for your post - What I intended with my questionings in this forum was not to receive only supporting messages, but also challenging messages so I can think about it more carefully.
That's right, I haven't yet talked to a therapist... call me a coward, but I still haven't gotten the courage to call her and set up a session. It is really scary to think about talking about my lifelong secret with a total stranger, knowing that I will have to do this... and knowing that when I do this, it is like accepting and taking the first step of a transition. I confess I am scared to the bone.
Quote from: HappyMoni on February 07, 2017, 05:17:19 PM
They are all correct that you are the only one to say what to do. The only thing I would warn you about is fooling yourself that these feelings will go away. If you stonewall this issue and pretend it isn't there you could be 10 years down the road and no longer be able to suppress the feelings. Then it will be even harder for both of you.
This is exactly the point that made me sit and think... Like everyone once, I was thinking about my future. I have always lived to please others, to be the person that everyone wanted, but have I looked at myself? what I want to do, or who I want to be in the next 5, 10 years? Then I looked at that only thing that I kept hidden deep within - I have always imagined myself as a woman. As a kid, I prayed to god to make me wake up as a woman... every single day... There isn't one day in the last 25 years when I haven't thought about it. I was tired, getting depressed, sick and that had to stop.
My first post in this forum was questioning whether or not I was insane about being trans, because I grew up as a "normal" guy, I made friendships, build relationships, married and never was questioned about anything... to other people's eyes, I am just another perfectly normal guy. I don't feel myself that much dysphoria, I don't hate being me, and it is not like I can't live another day like this. But even then, I will never be happy..., not until that voice in the skull ceases. And it will only happen when I do what it says to me... that the wish I made as a kid will never be granted, not until I do something about it for this is the real world.
It is a dream - yes - Isn't it a dream, looking at the mirror and wanting really badly to see someday a woman looking back? Isn't it what everyone of us is looking for here? Each one of us has their own reason or history, but this is exactly the outcome we expect... no one is more trans or less trans.
And yes, I am aware this is not a happy, fluffy and frilly way... as I said, I am probably giving up that "perfect" life I have, friends, family, finances, and gonna face an entire world of transphobic people and loneliness. But yet I can't avoid it. So again, am I insane? Maybe I am after all, and I know only a therapist will help me answer this question, and it is not exactly what I am looking for in this forum, although it helps so much reading other peoples' stories and seeing possible outcomes, positives and negatives.
Quote from: staciM on February 07, 2017, 05:27:46 PM
There was a long story from a SO on here that was recently updated....it was a few years in the making. Basically it started with her not understanding or supporting a transition whatsoever. She thought her "husband" was crazy and could never be a woman. It went on with updates and you could see the slow acceptance while HRT started. In the end it seems like they are quite happy in their new life together. Give your wife some time if the relationship is important to you....you never know how her attitude can change.
My personal story is somewhat similar. A few years ago I brought up a need to transition and my wife was dead set against it. After I shelved it and sunk deeper into depression it came up again. At that point we had months of intense discussions and it turned out she was less concerned with a transition and her pushback was related to some other things going on in our relationship. Now, she is my biggest transition supporter....my rock when I'm having tough days....and we are closer now than any time in our relationship.
Give it time and help her understand.
Staci, this is exactly the point of this ṕost I made. I am really tired and I reached a point where I could not keep it to myself anymore. I had to tell someone, and I was looking for a therapist. But then, thanks to alcohol, I told my wife. Of course there was a lot of tears, but then what surprised me was that she continued with me. It was even "easier" than when I revealed to her that I crossdressed a few years ago. I was 100% sure it was a divorce coming up, but incredibly we are still together. It made me think then... yes, it may be possible for her to tolerate or even accept my transitioning at some point in the future, giving her enough time to digest... but is it fine for me to drag her with me through this path? I may be fulfilling what I always wanted, but I will share all the predicaments with her.
But as Jill said in the first reply:
Quote from: Jill E on February 07, 2017, 02:53:08 PM
If transitioning is something you want to pursue, tell her. If you don't want her to leave, tell her. Just understand that she knows what is best for her, just as you know what's best for you.
And I agree, she is an adult and I should not worry about her decision, she is a very smart and decided woman and will know what is best for her.
I apologize for this long post, but I have been thinking about this for the last few days. It may sound rushy, or confusing random thoughts, and I agree too. It is just that I am at a Y crossing now. I can't stand it anymore and I need to put it off my head. OK, I won't post anything else until I will see a therapist, promise.
I am so happy to see the opinions and thoughts through these replies. Thanks all, for everything.
Quote from: gallux on February 09, 2017, 03:32:08 PM
That's right, I haven't yet talked to a therapist... call me a coward, but I still haven't gotten the courage to call her and set up a session. It is really scary to think about talking about my lifelong secret with a total stranger, knowing that I will have to do this... and knowing that when I do this, it is like accepting and taking the first step of a transition. I confess I am scared to the bone.
Transition is what you want it to be. I use the dictionary version of "to change". I changed A LOT. tons more emotionally then physically or my gender presentation. I am far better for not letting fear rule my life. And... I am generally a fear filled very cautiously moving person.
If you accept the definition of "Transition" as "to change". To change from what you are today to a better happier, dare I say joy filled person. All while being the person and presentation you are today? A social and medical transition is no cure-all. You are still the the same person on the inside. HRT helps a lot with emotional issues. It doesn't fix you.
I had a ton of negative energy and emotional baggage about being trans. Now it is minuscule. I had faith that talking to "a stranger" would help provide me with the tools and insights into myself I needed. That they would be the person with no skin in the game to ask me things or tell me things I didn't want to hear as well as the things I did that a support group tends to only provide. Otherwise known as the cheering squad.
Baby Steps
Quote from: gallux on February 09, 2017, 03:32:08 PM
I apologize for this long post, but I have been thinking about this for the last few days. It may sound rushy, or confusing random thoughts, and I agree too. It is just that I am at a Y crossing now. I can't stand it anymore and I need to put it off my head. OK, I won't post anything else until I will see a therapist, promise.
I am so happy to see the opinions and thoughts through these replies. Thanks all, for everything.
Please don't be afraid or deterred from posting prior to seeing a therapist. This place is for sharing and gathering information. (:
I am very excited to hear you're planning on seeing a therapist. It's definitely a scary first step. I found it easiest to speak to a female therapist; I tend to get anxiety around men though. Please let us know how it goes. (: good luck!!
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Quote from: josie76 on February 09, 2017, 07:14:04 AM
My wife has searched several SO forums looking for splice and information. She has told me similar stories. She has commented that most of the wives of mtf trans people on the forums she looked at feel their spouse was totally selfish. They were angry because their spouse changed and they didn't want change, because their spouse hid away their most inner person, because their "man" did this to them. Many consider being trans to be a mental illness, a sick disgusting fetish. For them it may be their easiest way to deal with the change is to focus their anger at their spouse. If that is the situation no one can blame the spouse for pulling away and even leaving the relationship.
What many female spouses of mtf do not see is their "man" was never a man to begin with. They continue to see that person as a male and continue to have the societal expectations of a male spouse. Hence I can see their feelings of the "woman who killed their man" being real to them.
What they do not see is how while their spouse may be selfish, they themselves are very selfish as well. They are angry because deep down they wanted their "man" to continue to play the part they expected of them. While they may not be able to see it in themselves, they desired their "husband" to stay the same and continue to play the part no matter how much the "husband" suffers inside. They cannot come to terms that their "husband" was never masculine mentally to begin with.
(I'm going to try to put this in an objective viewpoint. I may fail at doing this si please do not take offense. There are as many viewpoints to a situation as there are people involved)
this is an extension of male/female relations that society impresses on us. Many times wives will have their husbands do many things they could do themselves around the house for instance. Men do this and are expected to "prove" their love and commitment by their daily actions. A male refusing to comply with the females request is a guaranteed argument in a cis couple. This is so true it is commonly used as comedic material in entertainment. The selfishness of the mtf is their refusal to do what the wife wants in their life situation. This gets felt as the mtf "husband" pulling away or abandoning the wife's needs or wants. To the mtf this feels like the wife is trying to put them back in that cage they have suffered in for so long. If you look at most any cis relationship, there are many behaviors that the female gets away with. If a male speaks down to the female it is thought of as a bad relationship. If the female speaks down to the male it's considered "normal, nagging, ect" but the male Is expected to accept it by societal norms.
Then there's sex. Cis wives have these expectations of their husbands want for sex. Aside from the normal change males experience from teenage to later life, many mtf value sex itself far less. For me, I need to feel emotionally secure before I even care about the act of sex. This is contrary to the expectation many cis women have for a cis man. Maybe I don't really know what a cis male does or doesn't want sexually, but personally my needs were far from my wife's expectations for me. This caused many issues Thoughout our marriage. Enough that when I first came out to her I really was wanting to get her to just understand me. After ten years together she still could not get my sexual nature until I started breaking down and admitting my deepest darkest secret to her. Obviousy I it didn't fix things but she said now much of our disfunction makes sense to her. Of course then she told me how she blamed herself for our sexual issues. Sometimes she gets angry at me because no matter how many times I tried to explain my sexual feelings to her she never could understand and so blamed herself for the way I did not react to things the way She expected. Again we were caught in the trap of what society told us each to expect from the other in a relationship.
It is a very very hard situation for all involved.
I would call bs on the selfish deal. Is it selfish to spend decades being someone you are to fulfill someone else's and society's expectations that don't jibe with reality? Is it selfish for a spouse to expect their trans spouse to be someone they aren't because of their social conditioning, versus someone who was born that way? As we see enculturation change to be more accepting, I bet we'll see fewer divorces in these cases. I would posit that the selfishness seen by the cis spouse is the result of decades of sacrifice. Another thought too: it wasn't pure happenstance that a trans person marries who the do. There's probably a complimentary gender issue with their souls/spirits. I'd also bet that social conditioning prevents intellectual honesty with that fact.
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I'd also suggest reading She's Not There by Jennifer Finney Boylan. An excellent memoir of a couple that kept it together through and after transition.
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Obviously, it will help to talk to a therapist. First and foremost.
Those of us who transitioned did so because we had to. And should you have to transition, just be aware that your whole life kind of gets put on the table, and you might keep little or most of it, and you never can tell, because most of our lives are not just us, but our relationships. But I don't think it's wise to make compromises for the sake of someone else, not at the expense of your own truth. So, yes, if you want to make the relationship work, do what you can, but she's going to have to make her own choices too.
Sometimes, though, it's in everyone's best interests to move on.
My partner and I tried to make it work. She was very supportive, a real angel. And then there came the days when I realized that I no longer shared the same long-term goals that she had. Like having a baby, for example, because I couldn't bear the gender implications, and she refused to consider that if we adopted that I could be a stay-at-home mom, for that was always her dream. So I became uncomfortable with how the gendered patterns of our previous life still managed to persist. And she wasn't happy with our lack of a sex life, and wasn't really sure she was lesbian. Actually, I become pretty unsure about being lesbian too, for that matter.
And then came the day that I let a boy kiss me -- it was a stolen kiss, but I didn't object, in fact I really really liked it and I definitely wanted more. I told my partner immediately. This was her last straw, and she insisted I leave. I moved out within 48 hours. It ended up being for the best, because what we each wanted out of life had come to an impasse; it just wasn't going to work, despite all the good in our relationship. And now we got to pursue what we really wanted.
Everything was strained for years after that. Had some good "patching up" conversations several years ago, which was nice, but we're still not close or anything. We've both moved on. But I think we had to try, I was certainly unsure about what I wanted as I progressed through transition -- especially regarding my sexuality. If we hadn't tried, we wouldn't have known, not really.
In retrospect, I wish I'd had the courage to be more open about what I began to realize I really wanted, rather than hoping that it would pass or change. It would have been more fair to her; she could have gotten out of the relationship and gotten on with her life sooner, and with much less trauma as far as dealing with me was concerned.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on February 09, 2017, 11:48:45 PM
My partner and I tried to make it work. She was very supportive, a real angel. And then there came the days when I realized that I no longer shared the same long-term goals that she had. Like having a baby, for example, because I couldn't bear the gender implications, and she refused to consider that if we adopted that I could be a stay-at-home mom, for that was always her dream. So I became uncomfortable with how the gendered patterns of our previous life still managed to persist.
And then came the day that I let a boy kiss me -- it was a stolen kiss, but I didn't object, in fact I really really liked it and I definitely wanted more. I told my partner immediately. This was her last straw, and she insisted I leave. I moved out within 48 hours.
One thing I've never quite understood is why a trans person expects their CIS spouse to abandon their own traditional gender role, which the CIS spouse is very comfortable and natural, and there is no reason for an interest in doing anything else. Why should SHE abandon HER gender role? It's like you asked her to transition just a bit to male so that YOU can have the female role and be the primary female in the household. Why would any CIS woman want to do that? Could they do it? It would be no more natural or comfortable to her as it was to you trying to live as a male.
I've run into this in my own relationship. My husband has been dropping some of his "male act" and seems to expect me to take on more of the masculine role in our relationship, especially considering I do have a male side. It is neither comfortable or natural for me to take on a role other than feminine in many contexts (though in other contexts it's natural) and it becomes awkward when both partners want to be "the girl" in the relationship, or in sex. Like a dance in which both partners are trying to lead, or in this case, neither partner wants to be the lead.
Also, I suspect that much of the "last straw" wasn't so much that you kissed a man and liked it, but because you kissed SOMEONE ELSE and liked it. You cheated on her, even if it was "just a kiss."
Well, I think many mtf that transition want quite badly to be treated and be in the role of the feminine side and that leads to this 'expectation' from their remaining spouse. I am not so sure it is wrong or right to have this expectation, but just merely natural to want that --and to ask your soul mate/bestfriend/spouse to help fulfill that.
My wife and I have had this discussion. She does not want to abandon her previous role. I get that. I will still fix the tractor, repair the furnace, replace the sewage pump, hunt for deer, grade the driveway, bury the dead animals my dogs bring to the house, etc. But, yea, I might also ask her to treat me like a lady, too. ;) Or, I might, ...just hear me out..., ask her to fix the tractor, or bury the opossum, or mess in the poop water to fix the sewage pump for the septic tank. :) I do her feminine things, too. My point is, we are equal. The roles are shared. Yep, I asked her to transition with me. She agreed. I think it HAS to happen for it to be fulfilling for you both.
It seems like you are not seeing your spouse as female, since you refer to "his "male act"".
I do not and will never see my husband as a woman. This we both know, and we have an agreement that he will always be he/him/husband/male to me. Just as, even after I am post-HRT, post meta, I will always be she/her/wife to him.
I know it's not the way it works for most trans folk, but it works for us.
Fair enough.
I take it that if that is how it works for you two, then that may be why you "never quite understood ... why a trans person expects their CIS spouse to abandon their own traditional gender role"? I think we are all different, have different relationships, and see gender roles differently, and some, even, do not see gender roles at all, but a fluidity.
I see a bit of a contradiction for your hubby to be male-to-female, yet retain male pronouns and roles to you. Does not compute. :) Similarly for your transition and pronoun/role. However, that is my opinion, and well, we all know what others' opinions are to us that are trans*, right?
Quote from: ainsley on February 10, 2017, 05:39:16 PM
I see a bit of a contradiction for your hubby to be male-to-female, yet retain male pronouns and roles to you. Does not compute. :) Similarly for your transition and pronoun/role. However, that is my opinion, and well, we all know what others' opinions are to us that are trans*, right?
I don't know another way to describe his transition except MtF. He may grow boobs and show female behavior traits, but all I will ever see is the man I love. A somewhat effeminate man with boobs, maybe. But still a man to me.
I'm bi-gender, not FtM. I intend to transition my sex organs to match my mind to relieve some physical dysphoria, but not my social presentation. I will still dress and present as a female, but with a penis. I may go drab sometimes to make my male side happy, but frankly, men's clothing is ugly and boring.
Our adult kids, typically modern liberal Milennials, offered to switch gender pronouns when we did the "big reveal." Without prior discussion with me, he declined their offer without apparent thought. For some people gender pronouns are tied in with their gender dysphoria. Apparently for my husband and I, this does not appear to be the case.
Quote from: Cailan Jade on February 10, 2017, 02:11:00 PMOne thing I've never quite understood is why a trans person expects their CIS spouse to abandon their own traditional gender role, which the CIS spouse is very comfortable and natural, and there is no reason for an interest in doing anything else. Why should SHE abandon HER gender role? It's like you asked her to transition just a bit to male so that YOU can have the female role and be the primary female in the household. Why would any CIS woman want to do that? Could they do it? It would be no more natural or comfortable to her as it was to you trying to live as a male.
There's much truth to this, yes.
As ainsley points out, though, it's not just my expectations for her, but hers for me. For example, when it came to the idea of child-rearing, I would have happily entertained an equal division of labor, where we each spent time staying at home to raise a baby, and each spent time working to bring in income. But she wouldn't have it -- my desire to participate in this aspect of gender roles was something she resisted; no, I was still "supposed" to be the one who made the money to support
her child-rearing. And that's just something I couldn't do. The very idea was very dysphoria-inducing.
So this is the sort of thing that can really complicate a pre-existing relationship. Because of course she had certain expectations of how her life was going to go, and now those expectations were no longer being met. Early in my transition, I was more open-minded about how I was going to react to everything; I really thought I'd be more flexible, that I was above such considerations as who made the money and who did the child-raising. Especially given that I grew up in a household where my Dad did more child-raising and my Mom did more money-raising, though both of them did both things most of the time (though my Mom stayed home full-time until I started kindergarten, but I don't remember much of that). But dysphoria, gosh, it precedes conscious thought, precedes reason, and I've learned I simply have to respect it.
Which means that when it got close to the end, no, it wasn't fair to expect her to give up what she wanted. Why should she? But by the same token, it's not fair for
us to give up what
we need, either. In many relationships, then, I think the best course of action is to let go, if the sacrifices being asked of both parties end up being just too great and uncomfortable, because the needs are no longer compatible.
QuoteI've run into this in my own relationship. My husband has been dropping some of his "male act" and seems to expect me to take on more of the masculine role in our relationship, especially considering I do have a male side. It is neither comfortable or natural for me to take on a role other than feminine in many contexts (though in other contexts it's natural) and it becomes awkward when both partners want to be "the girl" in the relationship, or in sex. Like a dance in which both partners are trying to lead, or in this case, neither partner wants to be the lead.
I have a friend, another transitioner, who was in many lesbian relationships back in the day, and found a similar dynamic. Some lesbians are fine with leaning into masculinity, and others don't find it comfortable at all, but by and large (according to her) most establish an equitable balance where everything is negotiated... but without any preexisting assumptions being made about who gets what default positions.
Ironically, she found that after disclosing in a couple of these relationships, those assumptions began to shift and suddenly she was always the one expected to be responsible for things like car maintenance, killing spiders, what have you. Which eventually led to the end of these relationships (among other reasons).
All of which is to say, it's a balancing act. And maybe compromise will work, and maybe it won't. Like, it's not uncommon in some lesbian relationships where both parties are reluctant to take the lead, and "bed death" results. Whether that relationship will still be mutually satisfying enough for both partners, well, it will ultimately depend on a lot of other factors.
But anyways, it's funny-peculiar how a lot of gendering
in general plays out in masculine/feminine dynamics. That's a different source of gendering than feminine/feminine or masculine/masculine, and I don't find it surprising at this point, so many years after the fact, that it can become a source of contention when the dynamics change and someone ends up needing what the other can't or won't provide. I wouldn't blame anyone -- it's just a thing, there's no blame or judgment to be made, things change and people either adapt or they don't.
QuoteAlso, I suspect that much of the "last straw" wasn't so much that you kissed a man and liked it, but because you kissed SOMEONE ELSE and liked it. You cheated on her, even if it was "just a kiss."
Yes, certainly.
Now, to be clear, I wasn't looking to be kissed. I thought we were just friends, and then at the end our get together he suddenly leans in and steals a kiss, pulling away before I could even kiss back. I was completely surprised that he even felt that way about me. And then even more surprised that I wanted more. I really felt naive about how it all went down, thinking about it in hindsight it now seems blatantly obvious how this was going to go.
But yeah, all that said, from her perspective I entirely agree and sympathize with her reaction. Especially since she and I had gone almost two years without sexual relations ourselves.
In the end, it was clear I was going to need to pursue a different expression of my sexuality. Specifically, I had to know what it was like to have heterosexual relations with a man. Which she couldn't provide, and which she couldn't abide because of her own need for monogamy. This was a difference that could not be reconciled, coming after a lot of other changing expectations and unmet needs.