Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Community Conversation => Transgender talk => Topic started by: Mia and Marq on November 14, 2007, 01:28:13 AM

Title: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Mia and Marq on November 14, 2007, 01:28:13 AM
If you watch any TV, movies, or almost any other type of media out there, you'll know what we're talking about. For everyone else, a nice list of examples to follow:


We're only really touching the surface of male and female stereotypes.

Yes I can recognize that the sort of people that may enjoy these things do exist out there,but they aren't the majority. This sort of continued presentation only reinforces these stereotypes in peoples minds and then they do stupid things like force their boys to not play with dolls and dress a certain way and force their girls to always wear dresses. We want growth and understanding, we're going to have to stop the onslaught of misguided stereotypes in all these forms of media.

Feel free to add more examples of these reinforced stereotypes you see in the media.

Mia and Marq
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Wing Walker on November 14, 2007, 02:31:13 AM
Hello, Marq, Mia,

This is an excerpt from an op-ed column in Wednesday's New York Times written by Maureen Dowd, author of the book, "Are Men Really Necessary?"

Quote"Never let a man think you're smarter," her grandmother advised. "Men don't like that."

Ray and Ellie "had a good laugh, thinking times had changed," he recalled. The pair went on to marry — after she proposed.

But now, he says, "it seems like the students at Columbia University should pay heed to Grandma Lil's advice."

Anyone interested can read the entire on the website for The New York Times.

I hope that this article opens honest discourse.

Wing Walker
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Alison on November 14, 2007, 03:46:07 AM
This one recently started airing with the christmas toys..

"boys are built different"

starting the stereotyping early!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deH1OG2AevU
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Enigma on November 14, 2007, 03:50:56 AM
Quote from: Alison on November 14, 2007, 03:46:07 AM
This one recently started airing with the christmas toys..

"boys are built different"


Aside from the obvious...  ;)

Yes boys are actually built different in terms of how they learn.  The point of the commercial was the toys appealed to a common boy's learning style - hands on and often rough play.

It's not a stereotype when its true...
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Caroline on November 14, 2007, 04:00:25 AM
Quote from: Enigma on November 14, 2007, 03:50:56 AM

It's not a stereotype when its true...

Er yes it is, both in common usage of the word stereotype and in dictionary definition.
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Alison on November 14, 2007, 04:03:15 AM
Quote from: Enigma on November 14, 2007, 03:50:56 AM
Quote from: Alison on November 14, 2007, 03:46:07 AM
This one recently started airing with the christmas toys..

"boys are built different"


Aside from the obvious...  ;)

Yes boys are actually built different in terms of how they learn.  The point of the commercial was the toys appealed to a common boy's learning style - hands on and often rough play.

It's not a stereotype when its true...

Is it true that due to the same differing learning style boys decide to pull up flowers etc?

no.  - stereotype.
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Enigma on November 14, 2007, 04:10:21 AM
Quote from: Alison on November 14, 2007, 04:03:15 AM
Quote from: Enigma on November 14, 2007, 03:50:56 AM
Quote from: Alison on November 14, 2007, 03:46:07 AM
This one recently started airing with the christmas toys..

"boys are built different"


Aside from the obvious...  ;)

Yes boys are actually built different in terms of how they learn.  The point of the commercial was the toys appealed to a common boy's learning style - hands on and often rough play.

It's not a stereotype when its true...

Is it true that due to the same differing learning style boys decide to pull up flowers etc?

no.  - stereotype.

Girls do that too...
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Id Est on November 14, 2007, 09:06:15 PM
Jewelry commericals, not only must the woman have the item from this specific place but they set up their man to fail by never telling him so. The be as indirect as possible female stereotype if i had to name it. And really this occurs in many contexts, not just jewelry.

But I hear an obnoxious jewelry commercial on the radio nearly every day, which is very good at showing the be as indirect as possible scenario...sadly I can recall how it goes. It has the woman acting so surprised that her man knew which jewelry store she wanted him to go to, the story goes on that the man was told by his father where to go, but really his father was ordered by his wife to tell which place the man was to go to. Woman wind up having all the knowledge on where to shop but never directly make a damn statement.
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Attis on November 14, 2007, 09:13:32 PM
I think gender stereotypes keep getting perpetuated because they're easy. And when it's easy, it's easy to reinforce, to mimic, and what not. Folks often don't want to think so they let others do the thinking for them (heck, sometimes I do that). So, it's little wonder why bad ideas like stereotypes keep cropping up, even if they often are used with violence to harm others like effeminate males, androgynous acting/looking people, gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and etc. It's just the way collectivism works, either you don't think and obey or think and expect the collective to 'correct' you.

-- Brede
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Pica Pica on November 14, 2007, 09:16:38 PM
Attis beat me to what I was going to say.

(BTW hello again, welcome back)
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: RebeccaFog on November 14, 2007, 09:31:15 PM
    recently the mass media talked for days about Hillary Clinton somehow using her gender as an excuse for being attacked by the men she was debating.

  The whole thing was a non-issue that they wouldn't get off of.

actually, every time they talk about her being a woman just aggravates me.
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Keira on November 15, 2007, 01:05:02 AM

Stereotypes are reductionists views of the world.

Its part of the brain system of integrating information, simplify, simplify, simplify and integrate to existing patterns.

This makes learning easier, imagine the brain had to track every variation seperately, but also glosses over those variations because they don't fit the previously reinforced patterns.

So, stereotypes are not just a big conspiracy, they're actually part of the way we see the world.

The less information you have, especially if its not first hand information (the media for example), the more distorted the view, the coarser the stereotypes will be and the farther away a random individual you meet will correspond to it.

With education, the classification system becomes finer, its still stereotypes, but so close to the actual person's individuality that its actually meaningfull instead of being alienating.


Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Shana A on November 15, 2007, 09:08:07 AM
It's gender tyranny. Most people have completely bought into the roles and stereotypes of our culture, not surprising as indoctrination starts from the day we're born. Gender stereotypes are effectively reinforced by everyone around us and the media, we all take part in policing and punishing perceived transgressions of gender.

y2gen
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Id Est on November 15, 2007, 11:04:22 AM
Quote from: y2gender on November 15, 2007, 09:08:07 AM
It's gender tyranny. Most people have completely bought into the roles and stereotypes of our culture, not surprising as indoctrination starts from the day we're born. Gender stereotypes are effectively reinforced by everyone around us and the media, we all take part in policing and punishing perceived transgressions of gender.

y2gen
That is the creepy truth isn't it? "...indoctrination starts from the day we're born."

But even that could be a generalized statement, luckily some parents find a way to counter the culture...or at least slow the brainwashing. And conversely, some parents would push and encourage every gender stereotype very intentionally.
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Attis on November 15, 2007, 01:07:33 PM
That's also why we have free will and reason to parse the truth from the bull****. ;)

-- Brede
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Shana A on November 15, 2007, 01:34:36 PM
Quote from: Attis on November 15, 2007, 01:07:33 PM
That's also why we have free will and reason to parse the truth from the bull****. ;)

-- Brede

I look forward to the day when more people actually use these skills instead of believing 30 second soundbites on TV to inform their opinions.

y2gen
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Doc on November 15, 2007, 07:29:32 PM
Quote from: Id Est on November 15, 2007, 11:04:22 AM
That is the creepy truth isn't it? "...indoctrination starts from the day we're born."

Nowadays, you don't even have to be born yet. A woman at my work was pregnant. She chose not to learn the sex of her baby by ultrasound. All the other women at the place complained bitterly about this. How would they know what present to get for the baby-shower? They arranged to have the shower after the baby was born, so they could chose gender-specific gifts.

This problem of buying gifts for a newborn of unknown sex was complained about daily, and at considerable squeaky volume, such that nobody could hear me saying reasonably, "Isn't it a little early to start imposing roles on it? Why don't you just get it a gift you think is nice, and then wait 'til it can talk and just ask it what gender it is?"
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Mia and Marq on November 15, 2007, 11:31:05 PM
And maybe they're just making it harder on themselves when we break the stereotypes and challenge what they have been taught to believe. We get enough free thinkers together, we might be able to advance ideas yet.

Freethinkers
Marq and Mia
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: RebeccaFog on November 16, 2007, 10:48:01 AM
I prefer to charge a little charge for my thoughts, if you don't mind.



That'll be .27 cents
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Pica Pica on November 16, 2007, 08:47:18 PM
you trying to rob us or something? that was never worth that.

Tell you what, take your entire mind, part exchange and I'll give you fifty quid and a few stolen televisions.
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: RebeccaFog on November 16, 2007, 10:27:25 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on November 16, 2007, 08:47:18 PM
you trying to rob us or something? that was never worth that.

Tell you what, take your entire mind, part exchange and I'll give you fifty quid and a few stolen televisions.
since everybody except you seems to know that 'quid' isn't a real word, I'll just pretend you said 'squid' and I'll take it!   :)
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: ChildOfTheLight on November 17, 2007, 02:29:08 AM
Quote from: Rebis on November 16, 2007, 10:48:01 AM
I prefer to charge a little charge for my thoughts, if you don't mind.



That'll be .27 cents

Wow, the dollar has gotten weaker.
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Bustus on November 22, 2007, 01:06:57 AM
We suppose human brains are just wired to think that way. People get scared when they can't grab hold of something and stuff it into a neat little box. For the sake of maintaining public order, we're therefore taught to be nice and stay in our boxes. It's so much easier to look at a genetic female and "know" that this person thinks, acts and dresses in what are considered feminine ways, not to mention is attracted to males. Being different is bad, as it defies the precious boxes that allow us to "know" what others are like, and since knowledge is power, people are rendered powerless. That's why they must then cram us into other boxes instead, no one can escape the boxes.

Commercials are definitely among the worst. You're right in that pretty much any cleaning product ad seem to be geared towards women. We don't get it. Carina hates cleaning, and that isn't going to change no matter how good the product may be, not to mention how pink it is. Cleaning being a feminine thing is just another example of the Order of Boxes, if we may call it that. Also, we despise anything that attempts to teach you that men aren't supposed to care about anything at all but beer and football, at the most. Since when was considering what you wear a feminine trait?

Oh, and a last pet peeve... Dividing boys and girls in school and assigning them to different classes! Hello, shouldn't we have stopped doing this back in the previous century? Why is it "obvious" that a boy wants to hammer nails into a board while a girl would rather be knitting? Most of the children seem to comply with it, as it's what they've been told, it's what boys do and girls do. The Order of Boxes reigns supreme.

You know, just for once, we'd love to see a product with two variants made for males and females respectively, where the one for males was pink and the one for females was black.

~Bustus
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Enigma on November 22, 2007, 09:09:27 AM
Quote from: Bustus on November 22, 2007, 01:06:57 AM
Oh, and a last pet peeve... Dividing boys and girls in school and assigning them to different classes!

Boys and Girls learn differently.

Boys learn through hands on activities and being able to actually see and touch things.  Girls are much better at grasping concepts and learn better using the traditional educational model.  Further, as they get older, by segregating the sexes they've found that both boys and girls are more likely to speak up in class and participate more in their education.  Its the same logic that showed that when men and women work out together, men overdo the exercise and increase the potential for injury (ie lifting more weight then they're capable of) and women underdo exercise.

Lastly, I hope you're not suggesting co-ed PE classes....  ;)
Title: Re: Why do gender stereotypes keep getting crammed down our throats?
Post by: Bustus on November 22, 2007, 09:27:35 AM
We were thinking more about dividing boys and girls and giving them different subjects, actually teaching them different things. While there may be differences in how they learn, there is absolutely no way to tell whether someone would want to do woodworking or knitting by their sex. This practice does nothing but reinforce the belief that any male goes into the male box and any female goes into the female box. We've also seen cases of giving males more math while females got more language classes, because "math is a boy thing and language is a girl thing", apparently.

Co-ed PE classes? You mean, both sexes having PE together? Isn't that how it usually is, or is that just here?