Hi Sisters,
I had Skype consultation with Dr Barry Eppley today and was more than impressed by his evaluation of the current status of my forehead and his direct and no beating around the bush attitude.
At the start of my Ffs journey, I was a bit naive/confused in what exactly makes a forehead feminine and how could that be achieved for me. Due to this, I decided to go to the best in business, Dr Deschamps and totally trusted his skills and aesthetic. While Initially I was super happy with my forehead results, as time went on and swelling went down I started to notice some wierdness and started feeling something is not right. This made me start analyzing foreheads of women across different ethnicities and comparing them with mine. I started carefully studying postop forehead feminization results of other trans women and felt even though there was good amount of improvement made, it was still not quite there.
Here's the observations I have made:
1. Male vs female forehead
A typical male forehead has a prominent browbone, a visible browbone break into the upper/middle forehead. Central forehead region that is often flat and even slopes backward to some degree. This is exactly opposite of female foreheads who have a rounder, smoother and a more vertically oriented forehead with minimal to no browbone. As far as genetic females with brow bossing, it is still aesthetically acceptable since there is no break between the browridge and the vertical forehead bone above it and the eye socket configuration, eyeball position/tilt, eye size and the distance between them is feminine. The sides of the brow-ridge/forehead are more tapered towards temple unlike in males in which the sides can be more boxy/square shaped. This is what makes a female forehead relatively fuller in the central region and overall rounder 3 dimensionally while also making the eyes pop out more( relative to men's deepset eyes). So for a optimal forehead feminization, combined 1) flatenning of the inner half of the browbone( mostly type 3 reconstruction) 2) aggresive reduction of the tail of the brow bone 3) increasing the convexity and the vertical slope of the forehead, would be required.
2. My forehead feminization:
While my surgeon did aggressively setback the browridge region over the frontal sinus with type 3 reconstruction, the tail of the Browbone was not as significantly reduced. This caused the sides of the forehead to be more prominent than the central region which is opposite in a female forehead. The sides of the forehead are not as tapered into temporal region giving my forehead a broad and flat look overall with the tail of the browbone slightly sticking out. Finally, while having a coronal incision was good for giving me a slight brow lift and increasing the forehead height in the centre, it was not so good for the temporal/sides of the forehead. But I don't regret having it done through the coronal incision way.
Dr Eppley evaluation was totally in line with my observations. He also made suggestions on how the flow of the forehead into the rest of the skull needs to be enhanced/feminized which is extremely important to me as well. Something conventional FFS surgeons don't address that carefully or if at all. If you ever wonder why a lot of times postop Ffs trans women don't still really look like cis women despite having a feminine forehead, part of it is this reason. Also Dr Eppley offers simulations of the prospective results before choosing/performing the procedure.
I had consultation with Dr Adrian Hsieh(Taiwan) and his assessment was very similar, but don't want to travel that far just for forehead work.
Reading Dr Z's forehead feminization approach from his website helped a lot too in understanding things. I think if he did type 3 reconstruction(which is extremely important for optimal forehead feminization) in addition to everything else that he currently does, he could produce some really excellent results. Because he doesn't setback the frontal sinus region aggressively, he relies on aggressive reduction of the tail of the browbone and sometimes on upper/mid forehead augmentation to create a rounder feminine forehead 3 dimensionally. However the eyes still are hooded and not as open.
From what I have seen from Dr MDM, he seems to be the best if not number1 surgeon when it comes to forehead feminization as he seems to address all of the issues to create a rounder feminine forehead with eyes as open as possible.
So for me, I am about to make the decision sometime next week between Dr MDM and Dr Eppley.
Anyway, as always I am opening up about every stage of my transition to help others as much as possible by sharing the knowledge acquired from my research and maybe saving other Ffs candidates from having to require revisions by being very well informed the first time.
I just think you are stunning as is and very feminine. I wouldn't want to chant anything if I were you. I'm having a consult with Dr Deschamps. I like your results from him! But would you not recommend him based on how you're not happy entirely? Thanks!
You are in good hands with Dr. Eppley, and their aftercare is top notch. Tell him his patient from Washington State sends her regards :)
Thanks TigerLilyNYC for your sweet words.
If I were to start my FFS journey again from scratch, I would still only choose Dr Deschamps. Maybe I would have asked him to be super aggressive. I opted not to have a in person consultation and had a phone consultation based on pics that I took in unflattering lighting(to make me look as bad as possible). So initially he suggested forehead, jaw, chin, nose and fat transfer. Since he didn't get to see me in person, I decided to only book for forehead, nose, chin and maybe include jaw/fat transfer too after he sees me in person. During our preop consultation(2days before surgery), he thought I looked good already and that I didnt need jaw/fat transfer. He even liked my nose and thought maybe we shouldn't touch that too, but I wanted it thinned out and upturned.
I am not unhappy with his work/aesthetic or about having to need/want revision. I actually really like the changes he made. What I am not very happy about is him not helping me on the tweaks and further changes that I want because he feels I don't need them. And after going to him, it's been very difficult to find a surgeon that I like as much as I like him, lol. I think he is very talented and not at all greedy.
Also during my first Ffs, I didn't want to travel outside the US which is not the case anymore.
Hope this helps. Feel free to pm me if u need more info.
AutumnLeaves,
Thanks again for your reassuring feedback on Dr Eppley. So far I am a fan. I will convey your regards to him.
Am i the only one who doesn't see those big aggressive changes in dr. Di Maggios forehead reconstructions compared to other surgeons? I been observing his forehead results for a while now and i feel like he does a really great job at opening up the eyes but for some reason he doesn't set back the forehead area between your eyebrows/ where the nose starts as far back as i think he could? Or does he set back the forehead so much that the spot where the nose starts can't be set back anymore?
I been considering him for a while now but after looking at his after photos i started noticing this in almost all his patients.. and tbh i don't know if this is aggressive enough for my brow bone type... :(
And this is an example of what i'm talking about:
(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16730232_865233353619675_2394810952004949517_n.jpg?oh=f1f899cd8d81f803ce93c92c9c5baa79&oe=5964B545)
Wow, Great observation. I have thought about that too and think it's because his aesthetic is more of a round curved forehead with fullness in the center relative to the sides. But it could be also due to not being able to setback the nasion too much thus also not taking back the glabella to the maximum. Not sure if this limitation is due to patient anatomy or surgeons skills or aesthetic preference. I had read somewhere, only Dr O(thus Dr D too) was the only surgeon that could super aggressively setback the nasion.
My glabella region is more setback than the outer rims which is the opposite of the curved forehead and it was actually MDM that pointed it out and help me understand what could be done to further optimize my results. Having said that, my glabella/nose setback by Dr Deschamps is much more aggressive than the pic u posted and I like that more that way than it be more prominent. if he had removed more of the orbital rims, that would be have been perfect.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 11, 2017, 09:33:01 PM
Wow, Great observation. I have thought about that too and think it's because his aesthetic is more of a round curved forehead with fullness in the center relative to the sides. But it could be also due to not being able to setback the nasion too much thus also not taking back the glabella to the maximum. Not sure if this limitation is due to patient anatomy or surgeons skills or aesthetic preference. I had read somewhere, only Dr O(thus Dr D too) was the only surgeon that could super aggressively setback the nasion.
My glabella region is more setback than the outer rims which is the opposite of the curved forehead and it was actually MDM that pointed it out and help me understand what could be done to further optimize my results. Having said that, my glabella/nose setback by Dr Deschamps is much more aggressive than the pic u posted and I like that more that way than it be more prominent. if he had removed more of the orbital rims, that would be have been perfect.
TigerLily said this:
Quote
I just think you are stunning as is and very feminine. I wouldn't want to change anything if I were you. I'm having a consult with Dr Deschamps. I like your results from him!
TigerLily (and others who have made similar comments) are right. No surgery is "perfect". But most people would likely suggest that you ended up with a spectacular result that is easily a 9 out of 10. Do you really want to run the risk of ruining that result by a further attempt at "perfection" ? Have you considered maybe just living with your 9 out of 10 result for a couple of years and really letting the underlying scar tissue fully shrink up - - before asking some other surgeon to try to "re-do" your now really striking feminine face? It is not often that a surgeon says "no" to a request for plastic surgery. Good surgeons will do that. Consider, maybe there is a reason not to try to further pursue perfection ?
Quote from: oneoftwo on March 12, 2017, 12:33:29 AM
TigerLily said this:
TigerLily (and others who have made similar comments) are right. No surgery is "perfect". But most people would likely suggest that you ended up with a spectacular result that is easily a 9 out of 10. Do you really want to run the risk of ruining that result by a further attempt at "perfection" ? Have you considered maybe just living with your 9 out of 10 result for a couple of years and really letting the underlying scar tissue fully shrink up - - before asking some other surgeon to try to "re-do" your now really striking feminine face? It is not often that a surgeon says "no" to a request for plastic surgery. Good surgeons will do that. Consider, maybe there is a reason not to try to further pursue perfection ?
Hey, i tried to reply to your private message but it wouldn't let me. Is there any other way to write you back? :-X :-\
Quote from: oneoftwo on March 12, 2017, 12:33:29 AM
TigerLily said this:
TigerLily (and others who have made similar comments) are right. No surgery is "perfect". But most people would likely suggest that you ended up with a spectacular result that is easily a 9 out of 10. Do you really want to run the risk of ruining that result by a further attempt at "perfection" ? Have you considered maybe just living with your 9 out of 10 result for a couple of years and really letting the underlying scar tissue fully shrink up - - before asking some other surgeon to try to "re-do" your now really striking feminine face? It is not often that a surgeon says "no" to a request for plastic surgery. Good surgeons will do that. Consider, maybe there is a reason not to try to further pursue perfection ?
Thanks for your valuable input. I definitely agree with everything you said and that's why I get afraid last minute about booking the surgery even when I feel I have found the right surgeon. I have so much respect for Dr Deschamps and him saying no consistently has definitely made me very fearful of more facial surgeries.
Hmm - I do not quite understand - those observations seem to be quit ein line what FFS surgeons usually say and try to adress, except maybe the vertical slope of the forehead, which probably is hard to really fix - I guess only filling it with bone cement could help, but may produce a larger forehead then?
The brow bones and oribals are shaved in FFS and the center part is set back in Type III reconstruction, which honestl seems to be the only one really worth doing for almost everyone
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 04, 2017, 06:11:36 PM
Dr Eppley evaluation was totally in line with my observations. He also made suggestions on how the flow of the forehead into the rest of the skull needs to be enhanced/feminized which is extremely important to me as well. Something conventional FFS surgeons don't address that carefully or if at all. If you ever wonder why a lot of times postop Ffs trans women don't still really look like cis women despite having a feminine forehead, part of it is this reason. Also Dr Eppley offers simulations of the prospective results before choosing/performing the procedure.
So what would he do differently than other surgeons? I am interested. I have not yet heard of him. Is it costly to get a consultation with him and have those simulations done? I would be interested to see if the simulations turn out different than the ones I had already done and which in part underwhelmed me a bit.
Dr Eppley was different in that his approach is to sculpt a feminine forehead as opposed to just removing masculine traits. Creating a feminine forehead that is 3dimensional not sometthing that looks flat/wide. Also he can feminize the top/back of the head that I need some help with. Plus I like his approach on first simulating the changes before signing off on the surgery. His consultation fee is $100 for an hour. My quote($35k) was rather complicated because it for multiple procedures which also included rib(10,11,12) modification.
So far I feel that Dr MDM is the only ffs surgeon that focuses on all points(except aggressive setback of the glabella region).
I do not quite understand - as far as I know the female forehead is basically the masculine forehead minus the masculine elements - what does he do sculp there? Does he add bone or bone cement to shape the forehead? I head that this was done before to basically round the forehead by filling the bone to make it smooth, but in some cases it looked not that good so most surgeons decided to do these type 3 reconstructions instead, reducing the bone mass overall instead of adding to it and almost always setting back the center of the forehead (glabella I think?).
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 22, 2017, 05:06:26 PM
Dr Eppley was different in that his approach is to sculpt a feminine forehead as opposed to just removing masculine traits. Creating a feminine forehead that is 3dimensional not sometthing that looks flat/wide. Also he can feminize the top/back of the head that I need some help with. Plus I like his approach on first simulating the changes before signing off on the surgery. His consultation fee is $100 for an hour. My quote($35k) was rather complicated because it for multiple procedures which also included rib(10,11,12) modification.
So far I feel that Dr MDM is the only ffs surgeon that focuses on all points(except aggressive setback of the glabella region).
Does dr Eppley also do the forehead "type 3" reconstruction or is this something only FFS doctors are capable of doing? And have you seen any of his forehead feminisation results?
I can't see the photos of you, where are they located? Is it in a previous post?
Quote from: IglooAustralia on April 04, 2017, 10:32:09 AM
Does dr Eppley also do the forehead "type 3" reconstruction or is this something only FFS doctors are capable of doing? And have you seen any of his forehead feminisation results?
Yes he does type 3 reconstruction. I am planning to visit him in person in may to see the results. Though I have already had type 3, and that's not my concern anymore. What I am looking for older s someone who can give me a curved convex forehead without using bone paste. In addition to this, also looking at rounding the back of head/vertex of head as that's a feminine trait.
Quote from: Sophia Sentiment on April 05, 2017, 10:12:11 PM
I can't see the photos of you, where are they located? Is it in a previous post?
Yes it was in a separate post. But I removed all pics due to privacy reasons. Also I went to Dr Deschamps, I didn't think he was on ur list
No, Deschamps definitely wasn't on my list but I just noticed you were considering MDM and wanted to know what you looked like and see more examples of Deschamps work. But that's all good :)
Eppley is pretty good about reviewing images and providing feedback. He also does 10 minute Skype consults for free. I dont find his pricing all that high for an American Surgeon. He also likes using custom implants.
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I considered Drs. MDM, Leis, Weinstein, DesChamps, Eppley, Spiegel, Zukowski, and Simon/Capitan (FacialTeam) for my FFS. My reason for not selecting Dr. Eppley even though he is geographically near me, was his relatively limited experience with FFS two years ago, and his not specializing in craniofacial surgery (he does a vast assortment of surgeries). I wanted someone who could do Type III forehead reconstruction in his sleep. I would be wary of anyone who claims to be able to narrow or recontour the forehead beyond anatomical limits using burring and bone fillers (e.g., PMMA and HA cement). Fillers do pose a risk of infection and even dislodgement if used extensively.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 11, 2017, 09:33:01 PM
Wow, Great observation. I have thought about that too and think it's because his aesthetic is more of a round curved forehead with fullness in the center relative to the sides. But it could be also due to not being able to setback the nasion too much thus also not taking back the glabella to the maximum. Not sure if this limitation is due to patient anatomy or surgeons skills or aesthetic preference. I had read somewhere, only Dr O(thus Dr D too) was the only surgeon that could super aggressively setback the nasion.
My glabella region is more setback than the outer rims which is the opposite of the curved forehead and it was actually MDM that pointed it out and help me understand what could be done to further optimize my results. Having said that, my glabella/nose setback by Dr Deschamps is much more aggressive than the pic u posted and I like that more that way than it be more prominent. if he had removed more of the orbital rims, that would be have been perfect.
I have to say I TOTALLY agree with your "if he had removed nore of the oribital rim" comment. I went to Dr. D right towards the end of his collab with Dr. O and I refused a hairline advancement due to the scar. Dr. O insisted and produce a good result with great forehead height, it wasnt larger than what I naturally had. However like you, the outer rims were left basically untouched...it seemed odd. The center was set back nicely, but originally Dr. D didnt think he wanted that bone removed...although I specifically stated I wanted the flatter appearance, ugh I thought I was the patient. Anyway, I went back for revision and I didnt convey well that the oribital rim was still to high/prominent, mainly of the left side, so instead I think he thought I meant to raise it, (the eyebrow) now I have the large forhead in height, that I was able to avoid the first time with the incision hidden in the hair and the left side is even more spaced out (raised) due to what was I think an attempt at a brow lift. I totally regret having the revision and wish I would have went to Dr. Z and did the endoscopic method on just the outer rims, since that was my only concern after getting my first forehead reconstruction.
I like Dr. D, as you said...but I do feel like he is to set in his technique or ways. I orignally stated I wanted more of a flat appearance before the first surgery and he stated to me well thats not in line with women of your ethnicity. Once again, Im the patient and I feel if my outcome is not a fit then just decline the surgery.
To any Trans women, that have had FFS I want to strongly advocate against revisions unless its really needed and your concern is understood by the doctor clearly and you have a clear idea of how they plan to correct the problem once your asleep on the table. I seriously now look at old pics and wish I had left well enough alone.
Im hoping to have ANOTHER revision and hopefully have my forehead skin relaxed some and restore the natural round hairline shape I had before that left side was lifted and see how much can be pulled from the back to meet the front incision without pulling so much and thus increasing the forehead height.
Any advice is appreciated?
I find it odd that a surgeon who was trained by Dr. O doesn't value the importance of shaving the orbital rims. In my research I found out that even surgeons who don't claim to be FFS specialists the first thing they recommend is to shave the orbital rims. When I talked to them about feminizing my face they said sure, yes, let's start with a rhinoplasty, cheek implants and shave the orbital rims. Even if they never heard about setting back the frontal sinus or don't dare to do it shaving the orbital rims is still within their scope.
Yes, during my consultations, both Dr. O and Dr. D were present and also during my surgery, so I'm not sure if it was an oversight or maybe a little bad compromising between the doctors during the procedure. My right orbital rim is set back more than the left side, which seems untouched, but even the right has room for more improvement. During a consultation with Dr. Spiegel after my first forehead reconstruction the prominent outer rims were the first thing one of his students shadowing him noticed. Which proved to me I wasn't being over critical.
Like I said originally Dr. D didn't even want to set back my sinus area, even after I said I wanted a flat transition from forehead to the top of my nasal bridge,he was just very concerned with giving me a "round" forehead, which I didn't realized meant adding volume. Thankfully either he changed his mind or Dr. O during the procedure felt my suggestion was best, because when I woke up, I had the flatter appearance I wanted in the sinus area, and it looked great, but with the prominent orbital rims, still appeared not completely or feminine enough!
I don't really have anything else of value to add to this topic, other than to chime in and say that I too went to the same doctor and have the same problem. The setback of my sinus has been fantastic but the orbital rims on either side of my eyes are still prominent and masculine looking. I have a consultation with another surgeon soon to further burr down the orbital rims, because it's not sufficient. I don't regret going to this surgeon, though. I still believe he's the best in the business with aggressive setback of the forehead. It's just that the transition from the forehead into the eyes (aka the orbital rims) is not properly addressed, in my opinion.
Yes, I don't regret going to him either, the first time! The second time however, I wish I would have done more research, but I felt since he did the first procedure and knew his work, to go back to him, but I was wrong.
Perhaps he feels working on the orbital rims is risky, otherwise I don't see why he wouldn't. I would describe his technique and attitude has conservative and by the book, compared to say someone like Dr. Z who is rogue ( in a good way), and has a go hard or go home attitude and is more aggressive with their work.
Jasmine and Hanana,
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience. I struggled myself a lot with respect to why my orbital rims are still Sharp but glabella so feminine as even regular non ffs specialists do that. Initially I thought it maybe some special secret sauce to give an exotic/sexy feminine look. After being declined by Dr Deschamps for a revision as I started consulting other surgeons(7) they all mentioned your forehead needs more work and that it's still prominent.
After struggling almost an year after surgery in trying to figure out whats still wrong with my forehead (aka why don't I totally look feminine with all hair pulled back), I realized that the orbital rims prominence as well as the sides of the forehead and it's transition to the cheekbone is the reason.
I choose Dr Deschamps without meeting him in person based on Dr O's reputation. However now I realize it's not the same as going to Dr O. He seems a conservative version of Dr O.
Yes, totally agree. I wish he had declined my revision, and yes, the two surgeons I met with also said it needed to be taken down more for me also.
Im not sure how much of that paste was added, but looking at old pics, before even my first forehead work, I feel knowing more now, that I could have gotten away with just brow bossing being shaved down and setting the sinsus area back. Now I have so much added volume due the "round" appearance that was trying to be achieved.
On the bright side, Ive spoken with one surgeon who said it can be shaved down.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on August 10, 2017, 02:33:28 AM
I choose Dr Deschamps without meeting him in person based on Dr O's reputation. However now I realize it's not the same as going to Dr O. He seems a conservative version of Dr O.
You can take driving classes with Michael Schumacher for years. It does not guarantee that you will ever drive like him
Quote from: TigerLilyNYC on March 04, 2017, 09:25:07 PM
I just think you are stunning as is and very feminine. I wouldn't want to chant anything if I were you. I'm having a consult with Dr Deschamps. I like your results from him!
Your pictures are no longer posted - - but as TigerLily and others on Susan's observed at the time a few months ago, when your pictures were still linked, you ended up with a rather outstanding feminine result from your facial feminization surgery. Pretty easily an 8 or maybe a 9 out of 10 from the perspective of most people. Also, a modest amount of orbital rim presence is normal and well within the range of the majority of everyday observations of female faces seen in public. The complete absence of any evidence of "orbital rims" is really rare.
In addition, it is relatively easy for a surgeon to remove bone from the orbital rims. But it is really hard to go back and replace that bone with grafts or fillers and try to build it back up when you do not like the result. Your surgeon may have done you a big favor by stopping where he stopped, given your results.
Also, in many or most instances, some modest remaining orbital rim structure appears very attractive. It draws peoples attention to the eyes. Currently, there is one example with multiple pictures from a timeline posted on another forum where the lady has some visible remaining orbital rim bone structure. Her results look so good three months after surgery that she ended up getting a photo shoot as a model.
Keep in mind the wisdom that says "... the enemy of good is an attempt at better." That is really important with facial surgery!
And also remember the further thought that the enemy of a "stunning" result (as TigerLily described it) is even thinking about an "attempt at better." That is really not likely to turn out to have been a good decision.
Quote from: jasmine891 on August 10, 2017, 11:54:27 AM
Yes, totally agree. I wish he had declined my revision, and yes, the two surgeons I met with also said it needed to be taken down more for me also.
Im not sure how much of that paste was added, but looking at old pics, before even my first forehead work, I feel knowing more now, that I could have gotten away with just brow bossing being shaved down and setting the sinsus area back. Now I have so much added volume due the "round" appearance that was trying to be achieved.
On the bright side, Ive spoken with one surgeon who said it can be shaved down.
Jasmine,
I called his office couple of times to reconsider the revision. But now I am grateful that they declined. Looking back now I think they realized that maybe what I was looking for was out of their comfort zone. I feel that my unhappiness with my face is due to its width. What I was asking for is the sides of the forehead decreased(so the forehead looks more convex and fuller without adding any material), browbone completely removed along with cheekbone reduction and jaw reduction. A wider forehead, relatively wide cheekbone and jaw makes my face look a bit boxy which is not very feminine. From the profile view, my eyes could be more open and orbital rims/browbone less pronounced if not completely gone. For what I was looking for I definitely would have been again disappointed after the second surgery, had he agreed.
Also I was/am seeking a round/convex forehead appearance only by aggressive reduction of browbone and sides of the forehead without adding any foreign material with the exception of fat.
Anyways, Can I pm you to find out more about who you are considering for the revision?
Hey,
Im not considering anyone in particular to be honest. I have Dr. Z in mind but I want another open forehead reconstruction to hopefully return my hairline to its natural round appearance and he hates that technique. Dr. Spiegel is in mind, but he was suppose to do some jaw work while adding a chin implant, that I eventually had removed, and guess what...my jaw bone was never touched, so Im not sure Im willing to spend the money for his mediocre results.
Im thinking I need to go outside the top names for what will be my last FFS surgeries. Im so over surgeries and just want to live and not have a to-do list when it comes to this thing we call transitioning.
I do agree some what with the persons messages above yours, but at the same time, if someone in our position still doesn't see the image they have in their head, then its hard to say, be content, especially if your still getting "clocked" after spending tens of thousands on surgeries.
Like I said, if you are considering a revision, do research, have a clear explanation of your desired results, and make sure the surgeon understands them, and gives you their plan of execution on how they will go about fixing your problem.
Quote from: oneoftwo on August 11, 2017, 08:12:41 PM
Your pictures are no longer posted - - but as TigerLily and others on Susan's observed at the time a few months ago, when your pictures were still linked, you ended up with a rather outstanding feminine result from your facial feminization surgery. Pretty easily an 8 or maybe a 9 out of 10 from the perspective of most people. Also, a modest amount of orbital rim presence is normal and well within the range of the majority of everyday observations of female faces seen in public. The complete absence of any evidence of "orbital rims" is really rare.
In addition, it is relatively easy for a surgeon to remove bone from the orbital rims. But it is really hard to go back and replace that bone with grafts or fillers and try to build it back up when you do not like the result. Your surgeon may have done you a big favor by stopping where he stopped, given your results.
Also, in many or most instances, some modest remaining orbital rim structure appears very attractive. It draws peoples attention to the eyes. Currently, there is one example with multiple pictures from a timeline posted on another forum where the lady has some visible remaining orbital rim bone structure. Her results look so good three months after surgery that she ended up getting a photo shoot as a model.
Keep in mind the wisdom that says "... the enemy of good is an attempt at better." That is really important with facial surgery!
And also remember the further thought that the enemy of a "stunning" result (as TigerLily described it) is even thinking about an "attempt at better." That is really not likely to turn out to have been a good decision.
Thanks Oneoftwo. If I am not mistaken, TigerLily ended up going to the same surgeon later on for her forehead and felt it wasn't done enough.
Personally I feel like the female model robust facial bone structure is not so favorable for transwomen. While a sharp orbital rims, prominent forehead, cheekbones and defined jawline can make a cis women look very exotic and attractive, the same very rarely applies for a tranwomen with similar features. While it may help getting a photoshoot, it may not be very advantageous if one desires maximum passibilty/absolute stealth.
We are better off making things as smooth, soft and feminine as possible while also looking natural.
I am not seeking perfection, just trying to erase features that deem masculine or are signs of my previous past as much as possible. For Example, this morning I had a video consult with surgeon about a body procedure. He is not very popular for FFS however he does have a craniofacial background and routinely operates on cis as well as some trans folks for improving their forehead appearance. While my consult was only for a body specific procedure, when I asked his opinion about my face without telling him anything about my facial surgical history, this is what he said.
" Right off the bat, the first screaming thing I noticed was your forehead. Its very wide, square and flat with orbital rims prominence.
And I had my hair covering my side forehead. After that comment, I pulled my hair back and told him that I already had forehead feminization. He then said
"That makes sense because I noticed both feminine and masculine characteristics in your forehead. The center is in the feminine range but what sticks out it how the edges don't curve making it look very rectangular and wide from the front view. Also the eyes look hooded on the sides because of the heavy orbital rims"
He was very sure that only the central part of my forehead was worked on while the sides and edges were untouched, thus giving that look. And I didn't tell him anything about my previous surgery or about what I was happy or unhappy about. That was his frank opinion without knowing anything.
Not wanting to settle for a mediocre result is not the same as seeking perfection. Anyone with a decent background in male vs female forehead can figure out about me when my forehead is fully exposed.
Yes,
I agree...one thing I think is not talked about much on here, that I've noticed is making sure not to place your opinion onto someone else.
I agree about the cis-women being able to get away with semi-masculine features, because so many do. For Trans women, we have the voice, height (in most cases), body structure, etc to deal with, so keeping things semi-masculine because some cis-women get away with it, is B.S.
It just leaves a Trans women open for being clocked after having spent time/money to look as fem. as possible.
I don't want to be perfect, or look perfect, but its odd to have just worked on the center portion of the forehead and left the orbital rims untouched. Like the doctor stated to you today, its the hooding that it creates over the eyes, that also makes it look masculine. For me, it doesn't fit my face, my jaw was slimmed, nose was slimmed, and now I have a forehead thats wide and prominent, because paste was added to it, when just like everything else it should have been reduced in size. My advice to myself and others, just make sure you know exactly what your surgeon is going to do once you are asleep. If they don't feel your outcome is appropriate or a fit for you, don't give them a dime, because ultimately (in my case) once your asleep, they will do/or not do, what THEY feel is best!
Quote from: Celia0428 on August 10, 2017, 06:41:36 PM
You can take driving classes with Michael Schumacher for years. It does not guarantee that you will ever drive like him
The flip side of that is that a good master teaches the apprentice everything they know, and the apprentice adds to that, advancing the art. :)
Hugs, Devlyn