Hey everyone. I was curious, and this is mainly for the older members of this site. What is conversion therapy all about? I have heard that it is fake-therapy and that it causes harm but what do they actually do to try and ''change'' you. I know there are a lot of people here who have dealt with trans-feelings from a young age growing up in the 60s and such as well as straight and bi- trans people who back in those days would have been mistaken as gay cisgender people. I know that is is immoral, and thought it wasnt practiced in Canada but I was wrong. Only in Manitoba and Ontario is it banned. From what I have read it is totally banned from everyone in Manitoba regardless of age and banned only to minors in Ontario, and anyone who tries to do conversion therapy in Ontario can not receive any provincial funding. For what ever reason I thought Newfoundland was planning a ban aswell.
But the question is besides it being manipulating and immoral, what are the practices they actually do?? Thanks!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy
It's basically trying to torture someone in order to change their gender or sexuality.
And much like conventional torture, it doesn't actually work.
Aversion therapy for "sexual/gender deviance". It doesn't work because these therapies want to address who/how you are, but can only have an effect on your behavior. They utilize negative stimuli to make you associate the negative stimulation with the target behavior.
Think of shock collars for dogs. You want to discourage barking, so you shock the dog when it barks. The dog will learn that barking=getting shocked, and will not do it anymore. That works, because it's a behavior that can be stopped.
Season 2 Episode 4 of American Horror Story has an example of what this looks like in a gay conversion scenario.
It really doesn't do anything as for gender dysphoria there are, apparently, physical differences in the brain. You can't convert/fix/... It's not broken. Just different.
There's an old joke:
Why shouldn't you try to teach a pig to sing?
Because it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Quote from: FTMax on March 15, 2017, 01:41:16 PMThey utilize negative stimuli to make you associate the negative stimulation with the target behavior.
Makes me think of the "Ludovico Technique".
Aww ok. I knew it didnt work was just curious about what flawed methods they use. Thanks!
basically tries to guilt the person into stopping their behavior. its horrible.
Quote from: audreytn on March 16, 2017, 04:06:36 PM
basically tries to guilt the person into stopping their behavior. its horrible.
Odd. Why do faux doctors want to do that when society has been doing that for a very long time. These so called Dr.s almost sound like ambulance ->-bleeped-<-s.
I believe that many want to do that because accepting that being LGBT is innate totally invalidates their own religious worldview. Therefore, in order to validate their dogmas they must demonstrate that being LGBT is malleable.
Accepting that the dogmas one has been immersed in their entire life may be built on shifting sand is not an easy thing to do.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
Quote from: SailorMars1994 on March 16, 2017, 10:50:17 PM
Odd. Why do faux doctors want to do that when society has been doing that for a very long time. These so called Dr.s almost sound like ambulance ->-bleeped-<-s.
The sad truth is a lot of families come BEGGING for these witch doctors to 'fix' their son or daughter and money is no object... I thibk the worst example of this in the United States was owned an operated by a supposed 'reformed homosexual' Mr Donnie Davies. Made famous by his hit song 'God Hates (homophobic expletive.)'
His treatment and methods he endorsed and practiced himself were more akin to demonic exorcism rather than medical procedure. He is affiliated with an organization Love Gods Way and he is also the spokesperson for C.H.O.P.s
(Changing homosexuals into ordinary people.)
Donnie Davies is obviously not his real name and he seems to have fallen off the radar of late. (For good reason, a hateful git like that and any organization they represent should fall into obscurity. Id be ashamed of spreading that sort of message under my real name too.)
Conversion therapy is still very real. Frighteningly real.
Thats all nasty, Hopefully one day a world wide ban will happen :)
Quote from: SailorMars1994 on March 17, 2017, 05:16:26 AM
Thats all nasty, Hopefully one day a world wide ban will happen :)
I cant see that happening when its still common practice in some less developed countries to round us all up and stone us to death. Or imprison us for life..
QuoteI believe that many want to do that because accepting that being LGBT is innate totally invalidates their own religious worldview. Therefore, in order to validate their dogmas they must demonstrate that being LGBT is malleable.
Of course, in doing that, they ignore their claim we're all made in "God's image". So, I guess they don't want to accept God is trans. :laugh:
QuoteOf course, in doing that, they ignore their claim we're all made in "God's image". So, I guess they don't want to accept God is trans. :laugh:
:) + 1 for that!
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: AnneK on March 17, 2017, 06:08:38 AM
Of course, in doing that, they ignore their claim we're all made in "God's image". So, I guess they don't want to accept God is trans. [emoji23]
I love this phrase I heard recently:
If your God hates the same people you do, then you have done a good job making God in YOUR image.
the found of gay conversion therapy is dead. Just happened recently.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/founder-ex-gay-conversion-therapy-joseph-nicolosi-dead-70-article-1.2995345
From what I understand they try to find a chink in your armour to exploit. Any uncertainty. They look into your past for trauma or for masculine (FTM) or feminine (MTF) events and assign causation. If they deem you too close to your mother or father or the fact that they let you indulge in non stereotypical gender behaviour they will try to convince you that such behaviour caused the trans identity. They will encourage others to misgender and to strongly discourage the desired gender expression.
QuoteThomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic
With a name like that, it's probably run by some religious, likely Catholic, organization.
Quote from: SailorMars1994 on March 16, 2017, 10:50:17 PM
Odd. Why do faux doctors want to do that when society has been doing that for a very long time. These so called Dr.s almost sound like ambulance ->-bleeped-<-s.
Because highly motivated twits can make it through a PhD program or med school if they apply themselves.
Quote from: AnneK on March 17, 2017, 06:08:38 AM
Of course, in doing that, they ignore their claim we're all made in "God's image". So, I guess they don't want to accept God is trans. :laugh:
No. in doing that they deny that this is something innate and seek to prove it is simply an adopted affection that might be changed at will. In that way they can show it is contrary to being created in God's image.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
Ashley, conversion therapy in the 1960s was just nasty stuff, I'm afraid. I had some experience with this.
I was 'caught' at age 15 and taken around to see some doctors, ones with dimly lit offices and no exam tables who just wanted to talk for an hour. My parents were offered some interesting options.
I could receive the standard state of the art treatment, electro-convulsive therapy followed by faradic or chemical aversion therapy. I gather the ECT was to soften me up and make me more receptive to the aversion therapy, which would consist of my watching a slide show while hooked to electrodes or an IV. Shocks or a nausea-inducing drug would be given while slides of things I wasn't supposed to like were shown. Patients who didn't respond well to this could be given a prefrontal lobotomy to improve compliance.
My folks, Mom primarily I think, opted not to go this route. (Mom was an RN and had a pretty good idea of the details involved.) Instead, I got the hormones and counseling treatment.
I had undescended testicles, no body hair or beard, and was a slight, effeminate 15 year old. This was probably due to DES exposure that I confirmed several years ago. I had done very well academically, but was poorly socialized, what with the beatings and other things that happened to me in school. Let's just say that the high school locker room was the place I most feared once in an all-male private high school.
I was given a series of injections, very likely testosterone, and received counseling. The counselor was an authority figure, definitely not trained as a gender counselor, who explained in detail the error of my ways and gave me quite the self-image and self-esteem talk. I was a horrible person, and was to suppress my evil ways at any cost. I was eventually 'cured', becoming a D student prone to violent outbursts and waking with screaming nightmares. Yay me.
So, that's what the mild version of conversion therapy did for me.
The effects stuck for almost a decade, gradually breaking down when I was in my late 20s. I met my first transwoman that I was aware of when I was 32, and realized that was likely what I really was, but suppressed this as best I could for another 30 years.
I think conversion therapy made me what I am today, a late bloomer with issues. I'm recovering. I still have nightmares.
Lou Reed went through some of this as well. It is documented in some interviews at the very least. He did the ECT therapy with follow up sessions.
Think "A Clockwork Orange"
I guess we have covered this all pretty well, huh? I want to add triggering to the lead of this topic.
With warmth,
Joanna
QuoteThe counselor was a parish priest who explained in detail the error of my ways and gave me quite the self-image and self-esteem talk. I was a horrible person, and was to suppress my evil ways at any cost. I was eventually 'cured', becoming a D student prone to violent outbursts and waking with screaming nightmares. Yay me.
I'm surprised he didn't conduct an exorcism.
A priest is the last person I'd consider for counselling.
Quote from: AnneK on March 17, 2017, 03:22:30 PM
I'm surprised he didn't conduct an exorcism.
A priest is the last person I'd consider for counselling.
For many at a loss, the person to turn to is the one they turn to during joy and grief. The one that can absolve them and is potentially considerate, understanding and concerned for them "eternally". Not every religious leader or believer is bad.
Warmly,
Joanna
QuoteNot every religious leader or believer is bad.
I was thinking more of a lack of real life experience in areas they provide counselling in. For example, how many have experience in marital issues? At to that motivation caused by delusion, then you have to question whether you really want to talk to them. This is even before getting to abuse that so many of them are fond of. We've all heard about them sexually abusing children. In Canada, we also used to have a "residential school" system, where native kids were removed from their families, denied their heritage, forbidden to speak their own language and more. These schools were run by churches and caused a lot of damage to those forced into the system.
Bottom line, I doubt priests are all that suitable for counselling.
I got caught at 13 in 1973 and almost ended up at the psychiatrist. I didn't know what that involved then and reading the stuff above I'm glad I didn't find out.
I got sent to four years of military school instead.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
Quote from: AnneK on March 17, 2017, 03:42:01 PM
I was thinking more of a lack of real life experience in areas they provide counselling in. For example, how many have experience in marital issues? At to that motivation caused by delusion, then you have to question whether you really want to talk to them. This is even before getting to abuse that so many of them are fond of. We've all heard about them sexually abusing children. In Canada, we also used to have a "residential school" system, where native kids were removed from their families, denied their heritage, forbidden to speak their own language and more. These schools were run by churches and caused a lot of damage to those forced into the system.
Bottom line, I doubt priests are all that suitable for counselling.
Anne,
I would like to clarify that my comment was more explaining why some might turn to a priest for help. However, by continuing this part of the thread I feel I am doing a disservice to the original topic. It is hi-jacking a topic already is progress. If you would like to create a topic separately about the suitability of priests as counselors, their training and how their history makes them additionally unacceptable; you are free to. By starting a new topic in the midst of another, you are violating the Terms of Service # 15
Quote15. Items under discussion shall be confined to the subject matter at hand. Members shall avoid taking the other users posts personally, and/or posting anything that can reasonably be construed as a personal attack.
Additionally, you have stated your displeasure with religion and Catholicism in particular. You have a right to do that. However, many of your statements in this as well as other topics could be considered: bashing as stated in Terms of Service #10
Quote10. Bashing or flaming of an individual or group is not acceptable behavior on this website and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.
or violating Terms of Service #16
Quote
16. Please limit religious discussions to the spirituality forum. If a thread in another forum turns into a religious discussion please move the thread to the spirituality forum. Our moderators will assist in this process if necessary. Two restrictions apply to your use of the spirituality boards:
A. You are not to pass judgments on others beliefs, any more than they are welcome to pass judgement on yours.
B. You are free to talk about how your spirituality affects your life, but you cannot proselytize or attempt to convert others.
Wit and humour are very helpful on a support website. While I appreciate the humour you were attempting to add to the topic; please be aware it was at the cost of ridiculing another group. I know many have be hurt in the name of religion but that does not give us the right to turn around and do likewise.
Now, back to the topic at hand. Conversion therapy.
Sincerely,
Joanna