Hi everyone,
Lurked on and off for years, belong to other groups but never posted on Susans.
I recently called off visiting Facial Team due to finding out about their teams almost total lack of board certifications and suspicious membership-based qualifications. I'm devastated, I want to move on with surgery and plan for GRS as soon as possible and I feel like I've taken a huge step back.
Now I'm back to square one and it's crushing. How can I go about building a shortlist of surgeons? How can I collect a list of people who are talented, with good results so I can get to doing some research.
Information that may help you:
I live in New Zealand, so as every surgeon is overseas for me, location is irrelevant.
I want rhinoplasty, orbital-forehead reconstruction with eyebrow lift, hair transplant (I loved the idea of the Facial Team hairline advancement procedure).
Money is an issue but I have just enough for my procedures with Facial Team (€21,000) and would consider spending more for the right procedure.
I will only pay for a consultation if the surgeon is appropriately qualified and if I can access results photos.
Passing is of absolute importance to me. I need to pass.
Any help or information is of huge value to me. I have no idea of how to go about finding who are the current best in the field or where is good to find valuable information. I found out about Facial Team through a recommendation on ->-bleeped-<- and whilst they still rank highly on my list, I feel I dug up enough to warrant seeing if there's another team or person with more reputable skill.
Kind regards,
~Sophia
Sophia,
Welcome to the site.
I have not gotten to the surgery point yet so I would be of little help to you. However, we have a lot of members and a lot of them are active in this particular category.
I also want to share some links with you. They are mostly welcome information and the rules that govern the site. If you have not had a chance to look through them, please take a moment:
Things that you should read
Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html) | Standard Terms & Definitions (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html) | Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.) |
Reputation rules (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html) | News posting & quoting guidelines (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html) | Photo, avatars, & signature images policy (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866) |
Once again, welcome to Susan's. Look around, ask questions and join in.
With warmth,
Joanna
Hi Sophie
Welcome to Susan's place.
Its a great resource and great people.
I am also in the process of shortlisting surgeons for FFS and have the facial team high on the list as well.
It does concern me as it does you with the lack of credentials but I have heard good things from a couple girls
that went there.
I have just started my research so would be great to compare notes. Im sure a lot of the girls will chime in on this so Im all ears as well.
Look forward to swapping info.
Huggs Niki Marie
Hey Niki, cheers for the response. Yes, Facial Team have such a good reputation, they definitely have their army of fan girls and that may well be for very good reason.
The biggest thing that I've found is only Dr. Bellinga belongs to a widely accredited certification board on an international level. Which is encouraging because nose work is important to me but the fact that neither Dr.'s Simon or Capitan, the founders, belong to a UEMS (European Union of Medical Specialists) board. They belong to one board, EACMFS (European Association for Cranio Maxillo Facial Surgery) which besides holding a degree only requires a yearly membership of around €150.
They do belong to another, EAFPS (European Academy of Facial Plastic Surgery), which is modeled after a North American equivalent ABFPRS American Board of Facial Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery. The suspicious thing about this is that ABFPRS doesn't belong to ABMS (American Board of Medical Specialists) which is the USA equivalent to UEMS. So Facial Team (minus Bellinga) don't belong to any UEMS board and the one big certification board they DO belong to is modeled after a parallel USA board that does not for part of it's own national association of medical specialists. See where I'm going?
But I guess I find it hard to know how paranoid one can get. It seems sometimes board certifications are indicative of skill and other times are about academic politics. It's hard for me to tell and I don't know how much more I need to know.
Its odd, but there's so may women been though Facial Team and posted about it that I think their certifications don't really matter. Its almost impossible to find anything negative, and there's a large number of positive stories about them. Its hard to imagine that could all be faked either, and I've personally met a few women who've been to them and spoke very highly of them.
I'm put off by all the marketing they do, but even so there's still a large number of independent reports about them. I'm fairly paranoid about doctors and I view them as one of the safer options.
We will be going to Facial team next month :D
(My partner has had it booked for over a year)
She visited many surgeons for consultations over a few years, all over the world and finally decided on facial team.. For each of her procedures she has had a number of consultations with different surgeons and different methods until she decides the one right for her. Knowing how picky my partner can be and how much she would have researched I would give points to facial team for her having decided on them.
They came to Australia last month too for marketing I think, and she had a final consultation before surgery while they were here.
She will be getting her brow shaved and also wanted a bit of work on her jaw.
She was really looking forward to that, however at this consultation the team suggested she might not need her jaw done, and perhaps a small facelift would be more suitable. (She is in her 40's so skin is a little looser around the jaw is all)
I think that is very good of the facial team to suggest that and to suggest a good surgeon for the facelift if she wanted that instead.
It means they are not money grabbing, as you could visit some surgeons and just feel like they are ticking off a list of procedures to give you. Facial Team actually try and cater to your face and what they feel you really need.. Less can be more kind of thing.
Then again, I've never had a consultation and know nothing about them, only what my partner has told me, and she is very much looking forward to next month.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My consultation was similar. Similar in the sense they told me what they thought I need and don't need. It does seem honest but the thing I keep in mind with any doctor is that they are ultimately trying to sell you SOMETHING. If they tried to pile procedures on someone it would probably make them suspicious and scare them off. They're probably more likely to sell SOMETHING if they can get you to trust them. They could be genuine but at the same time I think it's important to realise how they could still be subtly marketing.
I have heard so many positive things about them as well and their patient satisfaction is the only reason they remain on my list. I suppose what worries me more is the potential for post surgical complications due to their lack of qualifications. Would a surgeon with better training and similar results be a safer option? It's not all aesthetics, there's health too.
Deciding on surgeon is a very personal decision.
My advise is to do a lot of ressearch into some of the best surgeons and see if you like what they're able to produce of results when it comes to the areas of the face you've chosen to alter.
For my part I did a very thorough research based on that I wanted to do a lot on the upper and mid face. After a couple years of research including even personal consultations with some surgeons(also with Facial Team) I ended up with Dr Di Maggio in Buenos Aires. I had my FFS there in June 2015 and it vas wery successfull.
Jannicke
Hey Jannicke, do you mind my asking how you built your list of top surgeons? Where did you go to find names of people most reputable? And if it's alright to ask, when did you feel you knew enough to finally decide on someone? I'm not sure how I'll know I'm there.
I've also heard good things about Dr Di Maggio and am having a consultation with him, I just need to get a few photos he asked for that I didn't need to take for Facial Team. I want to decide on someone as soon as possible. It feels like I'm stagnating and I desperately want to move forwards in my transition.
If you want you can follow our journey with Facial Team on Savannah's channel - https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCkP9YXrdxDDgxXErMb50PJw
We are currently in Spain, and she is still recovering, but the surgery has gone fantastically well and the hospital and staff were so lovely.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Lilly3 on May 09, 2017, 02:19:01 AM
If you want you can follow our journey with Facial Team on Savannah's channel - https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCkP9YXrdxDDgxXErMb50PJw
We are currently in Spain, and she is still recovering, but the surgery has gone fantastically well and the hospital and staff were so lovely.
I noticed there's no followup after her BA or long term butt-lift, and it makes me not want to follow the FFS because I won't find out how it all ends.
Quote from: Sophia Sentiment on March 22, 2017, 09:58:57 AM
My consultation was similar. Similar in the sense they told me what they thought I need and don't need. It does seem honest but the thing I keep in mind with any doctor is that they are ultimately trying to sell you SOMETHING. If they tried to pile procedures on someone it would probably make them suspicious and scare them off. They're probably more likely to sell SOMETHING if they can get you to trust them. They could be genuine but at the same time I think it's important to realise how they could still be subtly marketing.
I have heard so many positive things about them as well and their patient satisfaction is the only reason they remain on my list. I suppose what worries me more is the potential for post surgical complications due to their lack of qualifications. Would a surgeon with better training and similar results be a safer option? It's not all aesthetics, there's health too.
I know this can be mind boggling. I will have ffs with Dr z next month. I have seen few girls post about being turned off by the fact he seems to upsale his services. However, I beg to differ. I feel, when meeting with surgeons, you have to realize they have an eye . It's art. For me, it was important to be open minded to the fact that, to be 1000 percent passable, I'll need to be open for suggestions . Rather that be something that I really don't need, but will make a difference. I didn't want a surgeon who would tell me what I needed to get by every now and then. I needed a surgeon who would tell me what I need in order to be able to cut my hair all off and still pass as a woman, in all light, with/without makeup, ...ECT. my suggestion is to make sure they don't undersale you . You need a surgeon that is confident . The last thing you want to do is spend out so much money, coming out looking nearly the same.
Quote from: Sophia Sentiment on March 22, 2017, 09:58:57 AM
My consultation was similar. Similar in the sense they told me what they thought I need and don't need. It does seem honest but the thing I keep in mind with any doctor is that they are ultimately trying to sell you SOMETHING. If they tried to pile procedures on someone it would probably make them suspicious and scare them off. They're probably more likely to sell SOMETHING if they can get you to trust them. They could be genuine but at the same time I think it's important to realise how they could still be subtly marketing.
Just noticed this, and while I usually agree with this kind of sentiment I don't think its always accurate.
I once spoke to a women who had SRS with Suporn and she told me he refused to do her FFS because he didn't think she needed it. Everything I've read about Suporn indicates that he's not concerned with business things and really does think that way. He's always had a significant wait list as well, so I guess he can afford it.
Facial Team do heaps of marketing, but I've constantly heard Facial Team are often quite conservative in the work they recommend. It could be they place the patient above money, or they are looking after their reputation as a key part of their marketing, leading to more money in the long term. Either way its the same end result. My only concern with Facial Team would be if they are conservative in what they offer because its it reduces the risk of things going wrong, with the aim if looking after their reputation. That seems a bit complicated and so unlikely, I hope.
Quote from: lovelessheart on May 10, 2017, 12:13:46 AM
I know this can be mind boggling. I will have ffs with Dr z next month. I have seen few girls post about being turned off by the fact he seems to upsale his services. However, I beg to differ. I feel, when meeting with surgeons, you have to realize they have an eye . It's art. For me, it was important to be open minded to the fact that, to be 1000 percent passable, I'll need to be open for suggestions . Rather that be something that I really don't need, but will make a difference. I didn't want a surgeon who would tell me what I needed to get by every now and then. I needed a surgeon who would tell me what I need in order to be able to cut my hair all off and still pass as a woman, in all light, with/without makeup, ...ECT. my suggestion is to make sure they don't undersale you . You need a surgeon that is confident . The last thing you want to do is spend out so much money, coming out looking nearly the same.
I relate with you on so many levels having had ffs(forehead, rhinoplasty, genioplasty) and still having to need the right hairstyle to look right and feminine. Not at all comfortable with just pulling my hair back tight. I will be getting more surgeries very soon Including double jaw in my pursuit to have a hyper feminine face. Also I like Dr Z in that he puts more effort than some other surgeons, however one should remember that very very few girls can be 1000 percent passable(just judging based on face not body, voice etc). Now that could be a possibility for you but that's heavily dependent on your base bone structure than just the surgeons skills. A more aggressive surgeon can make someone more feminine sometimes than a conservative surgeon, but being totally passable without any hair would also require having the right canvas as ffs doesn't deal with a lot of other issues to completely transform a male skull into a female one.
I read a bit of Dr O's book and he mentioned that whole board certification thing as basically a reason so pick or drop surgeons and also as a reason to stay in the US for surgeries.
One has to understand that this is US specific. Europe is not the united States of Europe. Unil a few years ago, something like boards or certificates were only local. So maybe someone would be member of a german or spanish board. All of these boards have different kinds of guidelines and there is basically no unifying standard. So basically in Europe, people look much less at any board certifications as peole in the US do - it is just something much less common here. Surgeons who really do bad jobs will loose their allowance to do any surgeries, so surgeons will take care to fulfil some general standards.
So when it comes to Europe or other countries, I think it will be hard to select surgeons by board certification as in the US - in that case, only a US board certified surgeon can make it on that short list.
I believe internationally, some certification is more or less just the proof that someone is not going to butcher you because he is unqualified, but above that basic level, there is a lot more variation possible. So I would much more listen to the reports and stories about a surgeon than some paper that they got.
To the benefit of FacialTeam, I must say they do publish in scientific journals on the topic a lot, which is not quite common in the field, so they certainly have a good attitude about doing diligent work there. Also the surgery fee includes an insurance to cover expenses for surgical complications - they are operating in a proper hospital with other surgeons closeby if something really bad happens and it is covered financially.
That said, I think a reason to consider or reconsider FT may be their rather conservative approach. I feel, that sometimes they suggest too little or if they do some things, they do a bit less change than would have been beneficial. I love their foreheads, they do this great, same with the approach with the hairline with transplants. But I heard some people having complaints about more complex or aggressive rhinoplasties that they are not so happy with it - it seems to me that they do good rhinoplasties if the changes are little but are maybe again too conservative if a big change would be needed, like a big reduction in size or if a patient wants a clearly scooped nose - because they do not want to create faces that look surgically altered too much. The same seems to me to apply to the jaw and chin - looking at the gallery, the changes they do there are mostly subtle and many patients apparently were told they do not need chin or jaw change - or they opted out from it because of financial reasons - despite the post OP pictures showing that they could have benefitted from this surgery as well. I sometimes see much more radical changes in the facial shape with other surgeons, so if you want a radical change there, maybe make sure they would do it.
So my biggest fear with FT would not be certification or them messing me up, but rather that the changes would be too subtle and I would not see them and ask myself what I paid 30000 for.
I also have diMaggio as second on my list next to FacialTeam but he is so far away - I cannot just fly there easily and a remote consultation is just never the same. Email is not the best way to communicate everything needed for such a big decision...
Quote from: Ypsf09 on May 10, 2017, 01:19:15 AM
I relate with you on so many levels having had ffs(forehead, rhinoplasty, genioplasty) and still having to need the right hairstyle to look right and fem hiinine. Not at all comfortable with just pulling my hair back tight. I will be getting more surgeries very soon Including double jaw in my pursuit to have a hyper feminine face. Also I like Dr Z in that he puts more effort than some other surgeons, however one should remember that very very few girls can be 1000 percent passable(just judging based on face not body, voice etc). Now that could be a possibility for you but that's heavily dependent on your base bone structure than just the surgeons skills. A more aggressive surgeon can make someone more feminine sometimes than a conservative surgeon, but being totally passable without any hair would also require having the right canvas as ffs doesn't deal with a lot of other issues to completely transform a male skull into a female one.
I get what you're saying. With Dr z, I have seen some really masculine faces be transformed like magic almost. He is really aggressive, but can take a subtle approach if you ask him . I'm not sure how.masculine is too masculine to no be passable even if after ffs. Dr z really focuses on the soft tissues around jaw and Chin. And uses fat to fluff everything out .
Quote from: lovelessheart on May 10, 2017, 10:01:38 AM
I get what you're saying. With Dr z, I have seen some really masculine faces be transformed like magic almost. He is really aggressive, but can take a subtle approach if you ask him . I'm not sure how.masculine is too masculine to no be passable even if after ffs. Dr z really focuses on the soft tissues around jaw and Chin. And uses fat to fluff everything out .
I have all the faith in Dr Z. I don't like most ffs surgeons but truly admire Dr Z. May you not only become 1000% passable but very beautiful too. Best wishes