I don't really know how to explain this, but lately I have been overly concerned with making sure I don't like anything feminine. I'm not sure why it freaks me out so much, given I don't believe men or women (trans or cis) should have to stick to gender roles? But idk, when it comes to myself I'm losing it. I worry about the tv shows I watch (I really like anime and I know some boys do but the overwhelming majority seems to be girls) what i read (a friend introduced me to fanfic and while I really like it I've never heard of men who read or write it, just women) and little things like that. Anyone have advice it gives me so much random anxiety. I'm going to school for art and now I stress about my style being too "girly"
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if you are new to transitioning/finding yourself or what ever else, i can understand how you would feel that way. you don't want anything i guess to give you away as "female" or "feminine" even though that kind of stuff does not determine that at all. some people would be like "isn't that a girls show?" or what ever else, but i don't think people actually question gender when you voice what you like.
i think the further along in your transition, especially when you start to "pass" as male, you don't care as much about that stuff. i openly admit the "girly" or "feminine" things i like and don't even care. if they questioned anything it would probably be my sexuality, but do i care? nah. eventually you'll get used to just being yourself and not hiding. don't feel ashamed.
Quote from: invisiblemonsters on May 03, 2017, 09:27:08 PM
if you are new to transitioning/finding yourself or what ever else, i can understand how you would feel that way. you don't want anything i guess to give you away as "female" or "feminine" even though that kind of stuff does not determine that at all. some people would be like "isn't that a girls show?" or what ever else, but i don't think people actually question gender when you voice what you like.
i think the further along in your transition, especially when you start to "pass" as male, you don't care as much about that stuff. i openly admit the "girly" or "feminine" things i like and don't even care. if they questioned anything it would probably be my sexuality, but do i care? nah. eventually you'll get used to just being yourself and not hiding. don't feel ashamed.
Hey, thank you for this. I'm pre-everything, so that probably has something to do with it. I get a lot of anxiety, I'm still very lost when it comes to this whole trans thing as I don't really have anyone irl to talk to, and I don't know anyone who has transitioned. Hopefully things will get better when I move out of my conservative hometown. I guess what I'm saying is I can freak out and overthink things a lot, so thanks for your response. It seriously helped
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Self-proclaimed femboy here :), I know liking feminine things as a transman can be daunting (especially before passing), but for me it's a point of pride to be kind of femme-but-not-too-femme and makes me happy.
I dont have any advice but perhaps deconstruct and reconstruct yourself for a minute. In the end man/woman, you're still a person, a person who wishes to be happy. If youre going to stress over how other people perceive you even over something like your art style it isnt really all that healthy. Now instead of being emotionally charged you should remember that logically what makes you a man is not in your pants and for certain not the things you like (I mean, men who write fanfiction? I know a cis male who does! Anime? You wouldnt believe how mixed anime fans are, so many men I know watch things from Sword Art Online and SNK to Chobits and Hetalia.)
If you honestly ARE that worried about your image, assuming you dont have much else to back up your masculinity, consider just keeping certain interests to yourself and not highlighting them as a part of your life. Shrug it off as just another hobby, y'know? I'm in the furry fandom and a lot of newbies tend to freak out about how people perceive it as creepy and weird, and honestly the best way to accept it is just to not make a big deal about it, it's just another thing you share with people who "get it" and not spotlight to the world.
Good luck again, and I'm sure your art is awesome and very dudely, dude!
something that helped me get over that was realizing how many cis men--including totally straight ones--like the same things i like and more. cute things? bright colors? pop music? certain fashion trends? none of it is exclusive to women. not just on random tumblr blogs, but real people i've seen and known, people i've met, people my friends have known, etc. normal people who don't come across as anything other than regular ol' men also like this stuff.
i guess it comes down to being secure in yourself and your identity. if you aren't at a place where you can feel secure, which is understandable given the situation, it can be really stressful to feel like your interests don't always line up where they're "supposed" to. when you're ftm, people who know about it will use anything remotely feminine you enjoy against you. they'll cite hobbies, clothes, hair, anything they can to try to convince you (and themselves) that you're wrong. you just have to reach a point where you know you're not wrong, regardless of how much progress you have or haven't made. i'm still pre-everything and probably will be for a while with my current situation, but i've made it past the point where i care about liking "girly" things. i still won't wear my old jewelry and such any more, mostly because i'd like those things better on someone else than on myself. and yes, i do make some effort to avoid looking more feminine than i already do. but as far as what i actually enjoy doing, listening to, watching, or making... i like what i like and it's not going anywhere. it's not even unusual for men to do or like these things, and if they're not ashamed of it, why should i be?
I just wanted to chime in that some of the best fanfic writers I've ever read are guys, especially the older ones. (12-year-olds still write like 12-year-olds, no matter what their gender.) I don't know what it is . . . perhaps the "girly" label scares off all but the few, the proud, the awesome. :p
Where anime comes from, trust me, just as many men watch it and like it.
There are tons of male writers. Maybe not as many of some genres of fanfiction but who cares. Have you ever seen anyone even care what sex the writer of one is and make a deal out of it? I haven't.
Quote from: invisiblemonsters on May 03, 2017, 09:27:08 PM
if you are new to transitioning/finding yourself or what ever else, i can understand how you would feel that way. you don't want anything i guess to give you away as "female" or "feminine" even though that kind of stuff does not determine that at all. some people would be like "isn't that a girls show?" or what ever else, but i don't think people actually question gender when you voice what you like.
i think the further along in your transition, especially when you start to "pass" as male, you don't care as much about that stuff. i openly admit the "girly" or "feminine" things i like and don't even care. if they questioned anything it would probably be my sexuality, but do i care? nah. eventually you'll get used to just being yourself and not hiding. don't feel ashamed.
^ This.
I had the same experience early in my transition: it was almost as if I felt I had to do everything I could to purge any signs of femaleness from my life. This lasted until a couple of months after I'd started to pass, when all of a sudden I found that I no longer particularly cared what anyone thought if I happen to like something that's traditionally feminine, or dislike something that's traditionally masculine. Now nobody gets to tell me what I can & can't like, but it takes a long time to build that kind of confidence. You'll get there in time.
It helps that there are plenty of other gay men who like the sorts of things I do. It's not uncommon for men - gay, straight or otherwise - to like a couple of things that are presumed to be feminine. Heck, every straight man in the world likes actual
women: what could be more girly than that? ;)
As for fanfic, you're right that most of it is written by women. But there are some great male fanfic writers out there, and as I prefer (and write!) slash fic, I find their stories are much more authentic & accurate to my real-life experiences as a gay man than some of the wild speculation I've read that was written by a woman. Don't get me started on fanfics written by people with no relevant experience at all: they can be very frustrating & you can spot them from a mile away!
I like anime. And every anime convention I've ever gone to seems to have a fairly even split between males and females.
I started writing by writing fanfiction. And the first two people that really got me into writing and reading were other male writers.
I think it's normal to try to overcompensate when you are pre-everything. I think it would be a bigger concern if you were a year or so into transition and still having these feelings.
I personally was never into things you would expect a "real man" would be into. God I hate using the male pronoun when referring to myself, but anyway...
You aren't required to like something just because you're a man. Cars, sports, farting, action movies, or whatever the hell else is supposed to be masculine. I know a lot of cis-men who are into things like antiquing, flowers, fretting over what to wear on a date, repulsed by farts, and things you would expect a girl to feel. There is no "holy grail" of masculinity. If you want to be received as a man, I have one piece of advice.
Be yourself. It seems that in my experience at least, men aren't really worried about how people perceive them, the way women are. Guys just lay back and let the world pass by. In the morning they just throw whatever on and go about their day. Where as women do their hair, makeup, take time to pick an outfit, yadda yadda yadda.
So all in all, there are no set in stone rules about being a man. Just as there are no set in stone rules about being a woman. If you just be yourself, no one will judge you because you may like "girly" things. If something interests you, check it out regardless of if it's supposed to be for one gender or the other.
There are things I like that you wouldn't expect a man to be into, and things you wouldn't expect a woman to be into. Just because I'm in transition doesn't mean I have to stop loving hockey. It also doesn't mean I have to wear a dress every day of the week. I just wear whatever is comfortable.
Believe in yourself, and all else will fall into place. :)
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit & overall message of Jennifer's post, I have to disagree with this bit:
Quote from: Jennifer RachaelAnn on May 04, 2017, 09:00:20 PM
If you just be yourself, no one will judge you because you may like "girly" things.
As they grow up, boys tend to get judged
very harshly for liking 'girly' things: this is the main way in which boys police each others' behaviour to ensure their peers meet the 'right' standards of masculinity. This can be very harmful and it can lead to the kind of toxic masculinity that causes all sorts of problems... but that's a huge subject that can be discussed at length elsewhere. This behaviour can become entrenched & it tends to be life-long.
The bottom line is: people
will judge you, but especially other guys. If you're not into the 'right' sports team; or don't drink the 'right' kind of drink; or don't have the 'right' hobbies - in other words, if you don't express your masculinity in a way that is socially acceptable to other men - then those men will exclude you from their groups. It's much more subtle than what women experience (women are more likely to tell you to your face why they're shunning you) so instead of facing the sort of verbal criticism that women give each other, men will just quietly not invite you to participate in things. So you're still judged, but in a different and more subtle (but equally devastating) way.
When we transition, we enter a new peer group. We all have to figure out how to navigate this new peer group, and it can take years to find your place in it. Part of becoming a man is learning how to navigate through being judged in new & unusual ways, along with figuring out how much (or how little!) you care about other men's opinions. I've learned that whilst I care about the opinions of the men I admire, I couldn't care less about the opinion of e.g. beer-swigging football fans because I don't relate to that group at all. So if I happen to like a fancy cocktail every now & then, or prefer tennis & rugby to football, or love a good musical... then I'm not ashamed to admit it and I only trouble myself with the opinions of like-minded people. So that's the trick: find solidarity in an appropriate peer group (e.g. guys who like anime & fanfic) and don't give a hoot about what other guys may think.
I don't want to start a big argument, but I have to speak my mind.
While I respect your view FTMDiaries, you are off a bit. Men don't get judged the way you think. Most men, unless you happen to be Brad Pitt, are generally overlooked. It's women that get over judged and looked at like a piece of meat, or a sex toy. Men don't notice each other until there's a problem. Men have a select group of guy friends, and ignore others for the most part. And they don't sit back silently and kick you out of your circle. They let what your screw up was, and taunt you about it for a while then forget the whole thing. An important stereotype to note, women are taught to be dainty, sweet, and feminine, while men are taught to be bold strong and masculine. It's why you see more men getting into fist fights than women. Generally speaking. Or maybe that's just my experience. The thing you need to remember about men is this: there are 2 groups men fall into. The stupid and the envious. The envious will like you in 5 years, the stupid never.
As I said I knew ultra masculine men who collected dolls, had their bedroom painted pink, and got their hair and nails done on a regular basis. Yet they were as masculine as could be. They did what they enjoyed, and were for the most part accepted. Like I said in the last paragraph "the stupid never".
As someone who was forced to grow up as masculine as possible, it's all a role of the dice. Take your pick on people worthy of being your friend, and forget the rest.
Quote from: nickayo on May 03, 2017, 09:14:15 PM
I don't really know how to explain this, but lately I have been overly concerned with making sure I don't like anything feminine. I'm not sure why it freaks me out so much, given I don't believe men or women (trans or cis) should have to stick to gender roles? But idk, when it comes to myself I'm losing it. I worry about the tv shows I watch (I really like anime and I know some boys do but the overwhelming majority seems to be girls) what i read (a friend introduced me to fanfic and while I really like it I've never heard of men who read or write it, just women) and little things like that. Anyone have advice it gives me so much random anxiety. I'm going to school for art and now I stress about my style being too "girly"
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To be honest, most of the things you've listed, its more of the TYPE that tends to be given to one gender role or the other. IE anime -- fighting animes = boyish; romantic animes = girly. And as a writer myself that often writes fanfiction and who stalks sites like deviantart, I see a lot of guys writing... But regardless, I can see your concern for why you avoid 'girly' things and feel those things can be construed as girly.
My advice, if that's what you like, don't change it or tone it down. You've toned down your masculine self already, for one reason or another, and are now starting to say, 'Hey, I *need* this side out now or its going to affect me negatively.' Downplaying/avoiding things you like because they are too feminine is just going to later on make you feel like crap.
So try and surround yourself with people who share your interests AND accept you. Even if its only one or two people that's fine. They'll help bring you up, and stick up for you if someone says, 'Hey you can't do that, haven't you been trying to convince us you're a man?' Who knows, it probably will even give you the strength to say, 'Who cares if I like this 'girly' anime? Boys can like it too. Not every guy watches sports, you know.'
I want to say it's fairly common amongst us trans men. I mean, I actually enjoy wearing skirts and things like that because they're more comfortable but I don't anymore, because I try so hard to be perceived as masculine. Sometimes it's all for nothing, it seems.
I recommend getting into some Boys Love animes (that's helped my trans roommate) too. I'm partial to Yuri on Ice, because it's cute and its just about boys loving boys, y'know.
At the end of the day, if you feel you need to suppress or hide your like for "girly" things, I get it. I did/am doing the same thing. But the further you get along, the more you can bring those things back as a big "->-bleeped-<- you" to gender stereotypes. Or that's what I plan to do.
Before T I knew there where things I wanted to wear that where considered feminine, like make-up. I love adding a poppin highlight to accentuate my cheekbones and some eyeshadow to my undereyes to give me a sort of just woke up I don't care kinda vibe. I can do this now that I'm on T and I pass before I would have never even touched even a chapstick because they're not 'masc'. Some women's clothing I think are cute and I would wear if I had top surgery (I can't with the dysphoria) and I started letting myself enjoy more 'feminine' music like Beyonce. As you make more steps in your transition and become more comfortable you'll be able to just enjoy the things you enjoy. Don't get too stressed about it.
Huh, when I was in college I had lots of guy friends who were into anime and most of them watched shoujo along with everything else. I mean, it's kind of addictive, some guys drew the line at yaoi but some didn't. :)
I have the same issue with art style, although no one has directly told me that my art is ~effeminate, but i know that FTMs are held to a higher standard of pre-conceived masculinity than cis men, and I also worry
what i do is remind myself that the design industry is still fairly male-dominated, and that many of the artists i like that use so called feminine colours and styles are cis males. Look at the pre-raphaelits, the arts and crafts movement, the impressionists, even the baroque still life painters painting tulips. There are also so many men designing for women and girls commercially -- the creator of the pink-and-rainbows unikitty lego figure is a man (obvs there's no reason boys can't like unikitty too ;) )
I must chime in that anime is 100% not a girl thing AT ALL.
In Japan there are categories of anime specifically targetted at all demographics and the most popular anime in the west are usually the big shonen series. Shonen meaning boy.
Shonen (=boys anime) - Death Note, Naruto, Bleach, One Peice, Fullmetal Alchemist, HunterxHunter, Sword Art Online, Attack on Titan etc. (basically every highly popular anime in the West -NOT FOR GIRLS)
Shojo ( = girls anime) - Sailor Moon, Fruits Basket, My Little Monster, The World God Only Knows, Kokoro Connect etc.
Seinen (=adult men's anime) - Berserk, Tokyo Ghoul, Durarara, Ghost in the Shell, Monster, Space Brothers, Re-life, Golden boy
Josei (adult women's anime) - Nana, Chihayafuru, Gokusen, Usagi Drop, Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu
Tell me most of the anime you watch isn't specifically targetted at men. I'm sure you can't.
I would just like to express my appreciation for this topic.
I find it difficult some days to allow myself to knit in public or admit that I obsessively watch The Vampire Diaries and know every line to Dirty Dancing because of this very reason. Once/ If I'm out to my unit, I can just hear them using that kind of thing against me...
But now I know its 100% okay to appreciate Swayze and still be an out ftm. I probably won't admit to anyone for a while, but that's a different matter all together...
I needed this topic. Its good to know that I CAN still like some of those traditionally "girly" things and that it doesn't invalidate my TG feelings. Thank you.
I still go to musicals and know every word to them, nothing is gonna stop that and I don't feel any less valid because of it.
I think it is normal, especially when you're pre-everything, to reject things associated to your birth sex. It's probably because when we're pre-everything, it's part of what we can do to make ourselves feel less dysphoria and more like we're making progress in our own transition. In my experience after I started passing for a couple months, I felt more comfortable liking a few typically "feminine" things that I avoided before. Like Jennifer said "all else will fall into place" :) you just gotta keep believing. And if you feel like you need to stop liking some "girly" things for a while to feel more masculine, that's fine too. Just remember that you can always revisit those likes and dislikes later and see if they still make you panic. But most likely, you will be more comfortable with them later. When I was pre-everything I used to hate sewing anything at all. I'd beg my mom to do it for me. But now I like being able to hem my girlfriends prom dress, add buttons, sew minor rips, and whatnot. It's actually a useful skill and now I'm comfortable enough with myself to enjoy feeling useful.
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Quote from: lost._.at._.sea on May 30, 2017, 12:29:36 AM
I think it is normal, especially when you're pre-everything, to reject things associated to your birth sex. It's probably because when we're pre-everything, it's part of what we can do to make ourselves feel less dysphoria and more like we're making progress in our own transition. In my experience after I started passing for a couple months, I felt more comfortable liking a few typically "feminine" things that I avoided before. Like Jennifer said "all else will fall into place" :) you just gotta keep believing. And if you feel like you need to stop liking some "girly" things for a while to feel more masculine, that's fine too. Just remember that you can always revisit those likes and dislikes later and see if they still make you panic. But most likely, you will be more comfortable with them later. When I was pre-everything I used to hate sewing anything at all. I'd beg my mom to do it for me. But now I like being able to hem my girlfriends prom dress, add buttons, sew minor rips, and whatnot. It's actually a useful skill and now I'm comfortable enough with myself to enjoy feeling useful.
Well said. And I would like to add a couple things. How often do you see male florists? What about tailors? They are quite common and a lot of them would make the incredible hulk look feminine as hell. You don't have to be female to sell flowers or sew someones clothes.
Also you can always still like the things you do in the privacy of your mind/space/home. Nobody has to know your personal interests and if it helps your masculine imagine projecting only your masculine side of your hobbies can help you get by just fine without the dissappointment and shame of forgetting about the things you love