So I got into a feisty mood and started debating with alt-right proponents and immediately regretted it. Their immediate defense was suicide rate statistics suggesting individuals regret SRS more often than people would like to admit. Seeing this sent me into a depressive stupor earlier today until I tried to reclaim my sensibilities and realized that these studies are entirely contradictory to the personal accounts, especially a lot of personal accounts on this forum. So I'm kind of curious, what am I missing? I haven't seen too many scientific studies or statistics concerning all this, but something doesn't feel right about it all. I find it hard to believe that so many you is, statistically speaking, are more or less doomed to tragedy. Is this just alt-right propaganda that I'm falling for? Could anyone help set me straight? I apologize if this post causes problems for anyone. :(
I don't have a study I can point to but the numbers I have heard is 20% of us attempt suicide without treatment but with successful treatment, the risk of suicide is near normal for the general population. I suspect our risk might be even higher because there are people who never want their family to know and if they are successful, they wouldn't be included in the statistics.
I guess my problem was that their statistics made me question myself in an unhealthy manner again and I don't quite know how to rectify this on a personal level. I know how I personally feel about transitioning, I know that going as Renée to the prom felt good but my physical anatomy left me conflicted, but statistics like that make me question if I really want what I believe I want, if I'm thinking in a logical manner, if I'm just crazy, etc...
I dunno.
Their statistics are from Dr Paul McHugh who quotes other studies and takes their conclusions out of context.
P.S. Don't argue with those people. They have only a passing acquaintance with truth and aren't interested in learning anything that contradicts their ideology.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
If you torture numbers long enough they will tell you what you want to hear. This seems to be true of quite a few studies.
Zinnia Jones, over at genderanalysis.net, is a pretty good source for takedowns of those statistics.
But, yeah, the people who quote those statistics aren't interested in learning anything different. I have to give Zinnia (and others) credit for the work they do, but it's more work than I would be willing to do, given that people's opinions don't seem to be amenable to reasoned arguments.
Even if that was true, that's an 80% effective rate, correct? That seems like an acceptable outcome percentage for any condition and far greater than some other common afflictions and accepted treatments. All that means is healthcare providers should be diligent in adherence to the WPATH Standards to avoid this as much as possible. There will always be people who regret the decisions they make, there's no way around it.
I'd find out where these stats came from, the authors, and the size of the study before I took any of those figures as legitimate.
Thank you, everyone, for being supportive of me in my nonsense. I think I'll eventually get over some of my insecurities, and I appreciate the help you all give me. :)
I thought it was based on the Swedish study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons.
I have seen alt right speakers cite this and conclude that you have a high rate of suicide whether one transitions or not. Others who believe that transitioning is what makes you transsexual say argue that it is the act of transitioning that raises your risk above the control population. People like Steven Crowder have said this, but it's based on a misunderstanding of the terms and the definitions, aka what is being compared. The study compares post SRS trans with cisgender, not treated trans with untreated trans. That study I would like to see.
I can see how some people end up regretting SRS as it's major surgery with potentially major complications. Not all of which get better. But it has to be compared with the consequences of not having it. These armchair pundits for all their claims of libertarianism sure say alot about what other adults do to their bodies.
If the study was from Paul McHugh then you know it's bogus.
Here's the HRC site debunking his garbage.
http://www.hrc.org/mchughexposed
Generally speaking anyone on any side of any issue who really really "wants to debate you" isn't actually searching for information. They want to debate you because they feel they've already won, so nothing you say will change their minds.
When it comes to people being anti trans, the vast majority will fall within at least one of two camps:
1) "Trans people are icky, and they force me to think of things I don't want to think about." This is the largest group, and it mainly stems from lack of knowledge. There was a lot of this around the gay community in the '80s and '90s. The main way to combat this is to be yourself and a good person. Once people realize we're not trying to recruit their children or trick them into bed with us it will subside.
2) "Acknowledging a transwoman as a woman (or vice versa) is a denial of objective reality, I will not take part in a lie." This one is a little harder, and is where a lot of self doubt comes in. It's important to remember that within western civilization a lot of the intellectual infrastructure revolves around the promotion and restriction of communism. One of the ways that communist societies function is to constantly redefine reality. A good example of this is the previous ruler of North Korea, Kim Jong Il, having his subjects talk about how he hit 11 holes in one on his first game of golf. Such a thing is absurd, by forcing people to repeat an obvious absurdity he was exerting power over them. This is where the whole concept of "the LGBT Agenda" comes from. They feel that calling you a woman when they can lift up your skirt and see that you're what they feel to be a man is further proof of this.
This can cause a lot of problems because they'll seize on "I identify as female" as proof of how silly it all is. These types are hard to engage with because they'll just twist any statement to fit their preconceived notions. The only thing I can think of is to say that trans people are trying to use metaphors and similes to explain a feeling that's hard to understand if you don't have it, and hope it sinks in.
3) There are some people who feel that they have the entire world completely figured out, to the point where it becomes an integral part of their identity. If that worldview doesn't include trans people then it just must not be a real thing.
As to the actual studies you have to look at the actual age of the studies as well, if you go back to the '60s and '70s there were people who weren't trans who were undergoing SRS. Also until T-blockers were developed you were expected to transition and undergo SRS fairly rapidly since the very large doses of Estrogen were considered dangerous. Hence it was a bit of a leap of faith in those days since you couldn't be sure of how you'd feel until you were done.
In all honesty there's really only been good science on the subject for the past 10 years or so.
Quote from: EmmaLoo on May 10, 2017, 06:34:46 PM
If the study was from Paul McHugh then you know it's bogus.
Here's the HRC site debunking his garbage.
http://www.hrc.org/mchughexposed
I don't mean to overload the thread, but this is actually not a great resource. The page claims to debunk Paul McHugh, but all it is is someone saying "I don't like him and all my friends agree." The actual information is a single youtube video and a single link. This is the sort of thing I was talking about in my previous post.
Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on May 10, 2017, 07:07:01 PM
I don't mean to overload the thread, but this is actually not a great resource. The page claims to debunk Paul McHugh, but all it is is someone saying "I don't like him and all my friends agree." The actual information is a single youtube video and a single link. This is the sort of thing I was talking about in my previous post.
Not surprising really, but Im not sure if the information being cited comes from there anyway. It was just a guess.
I would agree its not a great resource but there are links to more info after the video. Personally I think it's a waste of time arguing with them and refrain from that at all cost. Trying to justify our existence got old a long long time ago for me. Its pretty much the same as arguing about religion. Uhhg.
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Don't debate the "alt-right". They just make up any BS that they think will boost their case and call it a fact.
I said this to someone else before.. there are a lot of people with an axe to grind, dont put your head on the chopping block
To add on, there was a time months ago I did what you were doing and also read and watched de-transitioning videos... even when I thought i was a fraud and I had to listen to this non-sense and go back I always felt very empty and not just mentally upset, but physically ill too... Take my advice, it is great to expand your knowledge but listening to the far right on trans stuff is not benefitial to you. Not only do most of them not believe in transsexuals but they also beleive in a very strict binary code that obviosuly, a trans* person cant do, or cant do happily anyway.
I personally don't give the alt-rght or any hate group the term ignorance.Nah,no breaks here, ignorance can be educated, they refuse. Stupidity is a choice.Checkmate and I move on.They are beneath me and I have zero care,love or concern for them.They could disappear and I wouldn't even skip a beat. They crave attention and contribute absolutely nothing but misery to our society.They bear no value and I don't think they are even part of my species, they were destined mistakes from the womb. I don't care if they change or not.I know I will remain and prosper despite them.They are annoying like a fly,just static on my radio I tune out.
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Thank you all for your encouraging responses. I love you all. :)
Quote from: SailorMars1994 on May 10, 2017, 08:44:07 PM
I said this to someone else before.. there are a lot of people with an axe to grind, dont put your head on the chopping block
That's an awesome way to look at things! :D
Quote from: JMJW on May 10, 2017, 06:20:58 PM
I thought it was based on the Swedish study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons.
I have seen alt right speakers cite this and conclude that you have a high rate of suicide whether one transitions or not. Others who believe that transitioning is what makes you transsexual say argue that it is the act of transitioning that raises your risk above the control population. People like Steven Crowder have said this, but it's based on a misunderstanding of the terms and the definitions, aka what is being compared. The study compares post SRS trans with cisgender, not treated trans with untreated trans. That study I would like to see.
I can see how some people end up regretting SRS as it's major surgery with potentially major complications. Not all of which get better. But it has to be compared with the consequences of not having it. These armchair pundits for all their claims of libertarianism sure say alot about what other adults do to their bodies.
EXACTLY! The basic concept of that study was poorly thought out. It sought to find what the effect of GCS was in regard to the patients psychological health compared to general population who never suffered from gender Dysphoria in the first place. Should it be a surprise that people who have suffered in general higher rates of suicidal ideation than the average population all their lives would not be cured 100% just by a surgery of their psychological trauma? Of course surgery by itself did not heal their minds. What idiot thought it would? Anyone with lifelong repression, hiding issues caused by societies pressures will not be just majically fixed by just the one step. Continued effort to heal the person is required. That would have just been common sense.
The righties are fanaticals. There is no reason that will dissuade them of their misconceptions. The very religious text they use to justify their need to control everyone else they do not comprehend. They pick out pieces here and there and decide how everyone needs to live in order to be acceptable to them. It is hate of the nonconformist just in slow seething ways.
I have been a practicing Pharmacist for over 40 years. I have seen "studies" come and go. Studies taken out of context or inadequate review cause many problems.
For example; many years ago there was a study that showed Oat bran lowered heart disease. So, the local cardiologist had the pharmacy stock Oat bran flakes that the patient was to sprinkle over his food for each meal. What a joke! Oat bran tastes like shredded cardboard and covering each meal with this stuff was just disgusting. The patients refused to use it. So much for current "studies". The common sense approach is that using diet to control disease must be done over an entire lifetime, not at the last few years of life. Now I am in favor of oat bran in a palatable form such as oat meal or toasted oat cereals in little round circles. But do not expect to see results in just a few weeks or months.
One last comment; the best studies use a large group of people to draw a conclusion. Any individual may or may not be consistent with the results of the "study". When I hear people quote a "study", I think to myself, here we go again. The practical application of "study" results may or may not apply to a specific individual.
For the OP.
Someone mentioned Zinnie Jones Gender Analysis website site and sure enough, she's got a pretty good takedown and analysis of the study you are referring to, and others, on her site.
http://genderanalysis.net/2015/09/paul-mchugh-is-wrong-transitioning-is-effective-gender-analysis-10/
Quote from: JMJW on May 10, 2017, 06:20:58 PM
I thought it was based on the Swedish study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons.
My psychologist brought this study up and wanted my thoughts. It felt like a bit of a test.
My initial hunch on this study is that regardless of GCS or not, during the years at which the data was pulled was not a very supportive era. 1973-2003. The societal pressures on transgender persons, whether the transition is successful or not are immense...."typically" undereducated and underemployed, discrimination on a daily basis, living below the poverty line with little support. Many are involved in drugs and the sex trades....heck, members on here have even admitted to selling their bodies to get by. It's not the gender transition that's failed. I believe they were all in a better spot mentally with their gender post transition, but it was all the other external pressures of being trans in our society that was their failing.
Quote from: ImSomething on May 10, 2017, 05:01:53 PMI find it hard to believe that so many you is, statistically speaking, are more or less doomed to tragedy.
The health professionals I've seen in my time seem to agree we don't exactly have a rosy outlook from the start. However
no treatment is even more bleak. It's a rock and a hard place but you take what you can get.
There's also that no study can effectively link things like suicide directly to the condition or to being post-surgery, and not other possible factors.
Quote from: staciM on May 11, 2017, 11:37:45 AM
My psychologist brought this study up and wanted my thoughts. It felt like a bit of a test.
My initial hunch on this study is that regardless of GCS or not, during the years at which the data was pulled was not a very supportive era. 1973-2003. The societal pressures on transgender persons, whether the transition is successful or not are immense...."typically" undereducated and underemployed, discrimination on a daily basis, living below the poverty line with little support. Many are involved in drugs and the sex trades....heck, members on here have even admitted to selling their bodies to get by. It's not the gender transition that's failed. I believe they were all in a better spot mentally with their gender post transition, but it was all the other external pressures of being trans in our society that was their failing.
I do so much agree with this. With society becoming more accepting it will be interesting to see some studies 20 years from now.
Societal pressures are why I did not transition 35 years ago. I knew I wanted to back in the early 1980's but it scared me to death. I still wonder how I would have done had I gone through with it back then. I'm sure it would have been much more difficult and I probably would have gone stealth which would have kept me out of the statics anyway.
People in my immediate life have made these arguments to me using largely debunked McHugh information, or "Christian" blogs where people quote statistics with no source and try to show how healthy detransitioning is. They even attempted to point to turmoil in my life as evidence that my path was wrong
Like most have said, they just want to protect their ideology and world view in the face of a fast changing world that is turning against those conclusions.
Since these people were close to me, i tried to respond in a really loving way, despite the fact that they were definitely not being that way to me.
The old McHugh study was flat-out defective. It made some bad assumptions when they made their "Adjustment Score" of the psychological well-being of post-surgery trans folks.
1) Points were deducted for being in any non-heteronormative relationship. A MtF lost points if they were married to or dating a woman. Being attracted to men post-surgery was the acceptable outcome. This confused gender orientation with gender identity.
2) Contact post-surgery with psychiatric care lost points. Seeing a therapist regularly lost more points. Never mind that the standards of care insist on continuing therapy past surgery...
3) Arrests and being jailed counted against the post-surgery transperson. This in an era where a transgender person could be arrested and jailed on the crime of 'cross-dressing'. You know, what triggered the Compton's Cafeteria and Stonewall riots...
Even the way that they added up the scores was wildly inconsistent. It was just a badly designed, poorly executed study.
Quote from: JMJW on May 10, 2017, 06:20:58 PM
I thought it was based on the Swedish study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
This interview with the paper's author clearly shows that her work has been misrepresented for political/ideological/religious purposes.
http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm (http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm)
Don't argue with those people. Also consider that just because someone gets SRS it doesn't mean that they are happy. And the more I venture from a male life to even an androgynous one, I'm struck by how poorly women are treated in general. It can be a bit of a shock!
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Quote from: RavenMoon on May 12, 2017, 05:40:24 PM
And the more I venture from a male life to even an androgynous one, I'm struck by how poorly women are treated in general. It can be a bit of a shock!
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I here you there, it is even worse than i imagined. There have been some pleasant surprises though too like how well cis-women treat me.
There are a fair amount of studies done on other marginalized populations and the pundits love to point to the woes of those groups to prove some political point or another, when those woes are often the result of being marginalized, mistreated and discriminated against. Its a circular reference. With more equality and progress in society the woes tend to disappear.