So my mother is visiting and I am in the generation who could have been exposed to DES. She has no idea about me but I so want to ask her if I was possibly exposed while she was carrying me back in 1965. Does anyone have any ideas how to approach the topic without coming out to her? I am not ready for that yet.
Thanks!
Paula
Very carefully. Me and my mom did discuss hot-button topics such as abortion back in the 1980's. When it came to DES, she clammed-up. There were a few articles and a sitcom on that subject back then. At the time, she was diagnosed with cervical cancer and I dropped the subject. She didn't tell us about the daughter she lost to adoption. We didn't know that she had a daughter before having us until after her death. Our sister found us through my grandmother plus the DNA matched. Also my mom had a history of anemia before having us. I am going by deduction here as my aunts won't even talk about my sister's dad's family nor what my mom was taking while she was pregnant with us.
Joelene
DES can cause a number of different problems and there is evidence it's effects can be passed on to children through the DNA. So, if asked, cite those as reasons that you want to know.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
Can't say I've tried it, but you could say you have a couple of friends who have some problems and now you're a bit concerned. I assume there's other potential problems than being trans. Don't say it like its going to make you anxious as she might lie, but that you're like to know if you should look out for anything.
I asked my mom if she took pre natal vitamins back in 64-65 she couldn't remember but it answered a lot of questions for both of us see I have always had a weird childhood for I was a girl and was forced to be a boy all because I had a penis,I developed like a girl and look feminine and got worse when I developed small breasts and quit going shirtless period. My problem was and is I fell in love with a woman and decided to live as a male which hasn't worked out as planned. Now 35 yrs later I'm faced once again with making a decision for being male hasn't worked out too well but I love my wife.
Considering the complete trust of medicine and medical practitioners people had in the era of Dr. Kildare along with the ravages of time on memory, I doubt most women can tell you if they did or did not. Can you cite what that anti-biotic was the doc prescribed back 30 years ago?
The inquisitive, "How does the work?", engineer in me I don't think ever wondered about the how or why, any more then the sun always rising in the east. Just the things are. Maybe because I knew very early on in life I wanted to be a girl. Being trans cannot be undone. The best we can do is figure out how to manage it in our own unique ways. If you have a driving need to know Deborah's approach sounds like a great weasel way to me
Thanks everyone! I've not had the chance to bring it up but I can always talk on the phone. The only problem with mentioning the studies is my sister is a nurse and mom was also a nurse. They may already know but obviously no guarantee they have. Great suggestions though! I guess I would like some validation even though I know (if that make sense?)
Paula
An even more weasel way I think now is to ask your sister if perhaps she asked mom? Perhaps just an even Oh by the way I read something the other day that perhaps you should look into?
Tell your mom that you need to put together a health history profile for you and your family as part family medical history. Just say it's not mandatory but it's suggested in case there are medical issues in future. Tell her you to need to know if there was any exposure to a common list of chemicals or drugs from that era.
Just give her a list and ask if she remembers.
I just threw this list together quickly, you can make one yourself if you want.
Thalidomide
Dienestrol
Diethylstilbestrol
Mesoridazine
What is DES? I googled but didn't find it.
Quote from: Charlie Nicki on May 22, 2017, 09:16:08 AM
What is DES? I googled but didn't find it.
DES is short for Diethylstilbestrol which is a medication you can google that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol
I just simply asked my mother about it. She said she didn't take any specific medication, but was given pre-natal vitamins (through injection) by her doctor in 1969/1970 when she was carrying me. Her doctor had recommended the prenatal vitamins since her mother and grandmother had several miscarriages, but still had a big family. All the signs of DES are there so it's pretty obvious in was in those prenatal vitamins. A lot of women were given DES without their knowledge through prescription prenatal vitamin like my mother was given.
I have spoken with my mom about it. She took prescription prenatal vitamins. That's all she can remember about them. I cannot find any record on the net of what was common is vitamins of the day.
What I did find about DES doesn't really clear up the muddy waters.
In 1971 the FDA sent out a bulletin to doctors offices officially counter-indicating the use of DES in pregnant women due to risk of a rare vaginal cancer in daughters of DES treatment. The FDA does not seem to have noted any of the many children born ambiguous due to exposure as a miscarriage prevention. DES was not banned / decertified for human prescription use until the year 2000. The anactdotal info from the web says at least some pharmaceutical companies added DES to prescription prenatal vitamins.
Does anyone have any information on this that is known fact? Sorry for the sidetrack.
There are probably several threads on the subject though HughE seems to be the most knowledgable on the subject. The latest thread that I recall can be found here (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=84224.200).
Quote from: natalie.ashlyne on May 22, 2017, 09:43:38 AM
DES is short for Diethylstilbestrol which is a medication you can google that
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol
Thank you.
Hi Paula!
I have two friends, both transwomen, who were exposed to DES... As I recall, one of them told me there is a clue to exposure in a few physical manifestations... One of them being something to do with length of fingers and one being longer... Don't quote me but I think it is if the ring finger is longer than the middle .. It can be a sign of exposure
Quote from: tgirlamc on May 24, 2017, 10:54:35 AM
Hi Paula!
I have two friends, both transwomen, who were exposed to DES... As I recall, one of them told me there is a clue to exposure in a few physical manifestations... One of them being something to do with length of fingers and one being longer... Don't quote me but I think it is if the ring finger is longer than the middle .. It can be a sign of exposure
That's the 2D:4D Digit Ratio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio#Evidence_of_androgen_effect_on_digit_ratio), which indicates what hormones the fetus was exposed to during certain stages of development. Many DES sons exhibit the more feminine ratio. The ratio appears to be negatively correlated to prenatal androgen exposure.
A 2006 study was published on the subject regarding MtF folks:
http://www.psyneuen-journal.com/article/S0306-4530(05)00177-0/fulltext (http://www.psyneuen-journal.com/article/S0306-4530(05)00177-0/fulltext)
Quote
Sixty-three male-to-female transsexuals (MFT), 43 female-to-male transsexuals (FMT), and 65 female and 58 male controls were included in the study. Photocopies of the palms and digits of the hands were taken of all subjects and 2D:4D ratios were measured, according to standard published procedures.
Comparison between right-handed individuals revealed that the right-hand 2D:4D in MFT is higher than in control males but similar to that observed in control females. In FMT we found no differences in 2D:4D relative to control females. Our findings support a biological etiology of male-to-female transsexualism, implicating decreased prenatal androgen exposure in MFT. We have found no indication of a role of prenatal hormone exposure in female-to-male transsexualism.
In addition to the finger ratio, there are a cluster of other symptoms are are associated with DES. None of them is definitive: having them doesn't prove anything. But if you have several, it increases the odds that you probably were exposed to DES.
In my case, I have the finger ratio, very light body hair, pubic hair closer to typical female pattern than male pattern, and poor upper body strength.
Since the first thing everyone does upon hearing about the finger ratio is measure their fingers, you should know what the actual measurement is. With the hand flat, and looking at the palm side of the hand, you measure from the bottom crease to the tip of the finger. Just because your index finger projects farther than your ring finger, it doesn't mean that the finger is longer. My index finger projects 3/8" farther than my ring finger. But the bottom crease is also 3/8" farther out, making the two fingers exactly the same length. If the index finger is the same length or longer, that is a typical female ratio.
There's only one body part I measure on myself.....good thing I bought a yardstick. >:-) :laugh: ::)
It is very hard to find information. The older you are the harder. Hospital records have been destroyed and research is virtually nil. I was born in 1951 which is in the sweet spot between 1937 and 1972 and longer outside the US. that the drug was prescribed. Wrongly as it turns out. The drug did not work for it's intended purpose of retarding miscarriage and stillbirths. My symptoms include a micro penis. Sorry Devlyn I need a micrometer not a yardstick. Late descending Testes age 17. I also have a defective heart valve, congestive heart failure, Cardio myopathy, arteriosclerosis, diabetes and severe depression. Each by themself inconclusive, but in total I suffer from the majority of the symptoms. My nickname is "Lucky"
Here is the group that supports research that you can use to check out the symptoms before you go to the doctor.
http://Desaction.org.
Today hormones are added to cattle feed, produce, grain and may be contributing to young peoples gender confusion. Again there is no real research and what has been done is on a very small cohort that does not supply adequate results. And why should we research something that will destroy the religious misconceptions that we choose our fate. Yes after 64 years of lying to myself and everyone I care for, I chose to stop being depressed, I chose to relieve the burden of a life long secret. I chose to align not with just Transgender rights but Human Rights. In the year since I made that choice I have never felt so serene and worry free except for the freaks that would not allow me to express my true self. I have also met a bevy of people just like me. For decades I thought I was alone and suffered much guilt and loathing.
Oh Devlyn!!! Hee hee!
Michelle, I checked mine and I am about as close to a 1 as I think you can get. Depending on how I hold my hand the ring finger appears slightly longer but when I measured them they were exactly the same.
Dawn, thank you! I'll check more out.
And thank you to everyone so far!! I love this place!!!!
Paula
This can be misleading. My figures are near equal length, I have no body hair on my chest/back or neck but I have pubic and leg hair. Even as a male my body has somewhat of a feminine shape and jeans with a more feminine cut fit better than male jeans. I was the first child and my mother conceived me 1 month after they married. According to my mother, all she receive when she was carrying me was calcium. The fly in the ointment is that in my early 20's I had a testosterone test and my levels were in the low end of the male range. This makes me suspect I was transsexual because I didn't produce sufficient testosterone to masculinize me when my mother was carrying me instead of DES exposure.
I'm quite certain of having DES exposure for myself and one brother. Mom had a series of miscarriages before I was born, and again for that brother. Like many family medicine cabinets, old prescription pills lingered in there for many years. I remember seeing that brown glass bottle of 'Stilbesterol Prenatal Vitamins". Mom confirmed that she had taken DES back in 2007, when we were filling out a questionnaire for a very long term study she had been enrolled in since nursing school almost 60 years before. Both my brother and I had typical symptoms, undescended testicles, and in his case hypospadias. Later I did not start puberty, and had no body hair, until being treated with testosterone injections as part of my care for both this and 'behavioral issues', that is, I went through conversion therapy 1968 style.
I never did have much body hair, and my 2D:4D ratio is 1.0 (both fingers 72 mm long). There are a number of other anomalies that have been widely reported.
2D:4D ratio by itself is not all that telling. There is a tremendous overlap.
(https://sugarandslugs.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/fingers1.png?w=480&h=292)
My mother told me she took DES after she read about it in the newspaper. My body had always had sparse hair while the hair on my head has remained thick. My arms have that 30 degree angle and while building upper body strength is not impossible, it is difficult. My voice is also on the high side of male. In spite of all that, my T before HRT was pretty high. So it's all kind of mixed up and weird.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
Interesting. I just measured both hands, and my 2d:4d ratio in either from tip to crease seems to be a bit over 1.08 (just barely touching) to a bit over 1.09 (if pressing firmly). I'm quite surprised that the bell curve in Michelle's chart above stops at 1.04, as I never thought that a length difference of just six or seven millimeters could be too uncommon.
My 2D:4D ratio looks just like my daughter's with a longer index and shorter ring finger. my son's index finger is much shorter.
I was not exposed to DES. I have other secondary sexual characteristics of a typical female. Unfortunately body hair is not one of them. [emoji53] But then my Italian mom was on the hairy side too. Lol
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Quote from: zirconia on May 25, 2017, 09:48:18 AM
Interesting. I just measured both hands, and my 2d:4d ratio in either from tip to crease seems to be a bit over 1.08 (just barely touching) to a bit over 1.09 (if pressing firmly). I'm quite surprised that the bell curve in Michelle's chart above stops at 1.04, as I never thought that a length difference of just six or seven millimeters could be too uncommon.
Yup, mine is as yours and I too found is pretty uncommon. Most women have both fingers almost about the same lenght (1-2mm). In fact, my mom has both fingers equal and both my father and brother have the ring finger longer (negative ratios as usual for men).
I hadn't been exposed to DES though (spanish, born 1987).
On the 2D:4D finger ratio subject I found this graphic time ago from a scientific study (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1737/2457) correlating childrens features and finger ratios:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frspb.royalsocietypublishing.org%2Fcontent%2Froyprsb%2F279%2F1737%2F2457%2FF2.large.jpg&hash=10e7c749d788f1566825cfde0a4c94d1f54be5d1)
It correlates with me too.
Quote from: Wednesday on May 25, 2017, 11:41:29 AM
Yup, mine is as yours and I too found is pretty uncommon. Most women have both fingers almost about same lenght (1-2mm). In fact, my mom has both fingers equal and both my father and brother have the ring finger longer (negative ratios as usual for men).
I hadn't been exposed to DES though (spanish, born 1987).
In the late 2000s, several studies showed that the grandchildren of women who had consumed DES also suffered medical issues. By the early decades of the twenty-first century, roughly ten million people in the US had been exposed to DES, and three generations of individuals had suffered medical issues due to DES exposure. Researchers class DES as an endocrine disruptor, which affects the form and function of the hormone (endocrine) system.
Quote from: DawnOday on May 25, 2017, 11:53:39 AM
In the late 2000s, several studies showed that the grandchildren of women who had consumed DES also suffered medical issues. By the early decades of the twenty-first century, roughly ten million people in the US had been exposed to DES, and three generations of individuals had suffered medical issues due to DES exposure. Researchers class DES as an endocrine disruptor, which affects the form and function of the hormone (endocrine) system.
Whoa, I had no idea it was that bad. Does it happen just with maternal grandmas or with paternal grandmas too? Anyway I have no clue right now about any of mines being exposed or not.
I have to note when my mom's was pregnant with me she got different symptoms (amount of weight gained, hunger, etc) to thoe ones experienced when pregnant with my little brother (6 years between both, when I was born she was 30, when my brother, 36).
By the way I was conceived outside of marriage >:-) :D
Quote from: Wednesday on May 25, 2017, 11:41:29 AM
Quote from: zirconia on May 25, 2017, 09:48:18 AM
Interesting. I just measured both hands, and my 2d:4d ratio in either from tip to crease seems to be a bit over 1.08 (just barely touching) to a bit over 1.09 (if pressing firmly). I'm quite surprised that the bell curve in Michelle's chart above stops at 1.04, as I never thought that a length difference of just six or seven millimeters could be too uncommon.
Yup, mine is as yours and I too found is pretty uncommon. Most women have both fingers almost about the same lenght (1-2mm). In fact, my mom has both fingers equal and both my father and brother have the ring finger longer (negative ratios as usual for men).
I hadn't been exposed to DES though (spanish, born 1987).
On the 2D:4D finger ratio subject I found this graphic time ago from a scientific study (http://"http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/279/1737/2457") correlating childrens features and finger ratios:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frspb.royalsocietypublishing.org%2Fcontent%2Froyprsb%2F279%2F1737%2F2457%2FF2.large.jpg&hash=10e7c749d788f1566825cfde0a4c94d1f54be5d1)
It correlates with me too.
Your link is no good, and what are we looking at here? Looks like someone going from a smile to a frown, but that doesn't change the length of your fingers. Can you decipher this for us?
Hugs, Devlyn
Unfortunately DES research has turned up indications that the drug has epigenetic effects, altering the genome in ways that can be passed on to subsequent generations. This has been demonstrated in mouse models.
Something like this may also be involved in human fetal exposure, flipping genetic switches in specialized stem cells before they generate various tissues such as components of the brain.
https://breast-cancer-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/bcr3649 (https://breast-cancer-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/bcr3649)
QuoteDeveloping germ cells undergo epigenetic erasure when they, as primordial germ cells, enter into the fetal gonads around embryonic day 10 to 11 (in mice and rats), and then undergo gender-specific reprogramming as germ cells [98]. It is now clear that reprogramming of these cells is susceptible to modifications caused by changes in fetal hormonal environment, such as resulting from an exposure to DES or other endocrine disruptors. Consequently, these exposures can leave a permanent biochemical footprint on the genome of the F1 generation germ cells, and this change may be inherited by the F2 generation germ line and several subsequent generations.
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Quote from: Devlyn Marie
What are we looking at here? Looks like someone going from a smile to a frown, but that doesn't change the length of your fingers. Can you decipher this for us?
Sure! If you look closely to the pictures, you'll notice that the more on the left the pic is, the smaller chin/jaw are, and the bigger and rounder forehead is.
On the other side, the more on the right the pic, the wider/bulkier chin/jaw are, and the short and squared the forehead is.
Those pictures are a computer designed portrait that shows the average face for a given 2D:4D finger ratio (based on lots of photos of real children faces correlated to their finger ratios).
The more on the left the pic is, the higher 2D:4D finger ratio (index finger longer than ring finger), those are the feminized finger ratios (more estrogen exposure in utero).
The more on the right the pic is, the lower 2D:4D finger ratio (index finger shorter than ring finger), those are the masculinized finger ratios (more androgen exposure in utero).
Hope it makes sense! :D
Quote from: Michelle_P on May 25, 2017, 02:31:01 PM
https://breast-cancer-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/bcr3649 (https://breast-cancer-research.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/bcr3649)
Im gonna check that link! Thanks!
Quote from: Wednesday on May 25, 2017, 02:44:44 PM
Sure! If you look closely to the pictures, you'll notice that the more on the left the pic is, the smaller chin/jaw are, and the bigger and rounder forehead is.
On the other side, the more on the right the pic, the wider/bulkier chin/jaw are, and the short and squared the forehead is.
Those pictures are a computer designed portrait that shows the average face for a given 2D:4D finger ratio (based on lots of photos of real children faces correlated to their finger ratios).
The more on the left the pic is, the higher 2D:4D finger ratio (index finger longer than ring finger), those are the feminized finger ratios (more estrogen exposure in utero).
The more on the right the pic is, the lower 2D:4D finger ratio (index finger shorter than ring finger), those are the masculinized finger ratios (more androgen exposure in utero).
Hope it makes sense! :D
The funny thing is I am right at a 1 and I would say I am right there but I just have a big head.