I'm just curious how many girls get FFS and feel like people aren't honest with their looks after.. like people are afraid to tell them things. I know everyone wants ffs to be the end-all to gender questionability, but I still get this sense that people aren't always honest & forthright.. Then you have some that ask if you've started transition lmao.
Hey,
What do you mean ppl arent honest? Like if they aren't happy with their results and don't share that info? Not sure what you mean lol or do you mean they got ffs and are still having their gender questioned and aren't willing to share that with us? I'd think it'd be quite shattering to have that happen. But im sure it happens a lot more than we think. Dunno how i would deal with that happening though.
regards,
B
There's lots of ->-bleeped-<- going on. To me, many "after" pictures still look very male, but nobody dares say anything because it's akin to saying, "Wow, that was a waste of your money!"
This is why those awful local plastic surgeons still get away with offering FFS. Nobody tells recent patients, "Honey, your FFS results look useless and your surgeon just ripped you off." And people who are disappointed rarely say they're unhappy with their results. But they feel it inside.
And then there's the people on sites like this one where surgical results - good and bad - are met with resounding praise regardless. And where honest evaluations generally lead to the evaluator being hounded off the site.
So yeah, a bit of a mess really.
What would help?
- Less unqualified praise
- More freedom to critically evaluate results without fear of retribution
That way, we might stop some surgeons taking advantage of us.
A problem I see with the FFS opinions is that people judge by different standards. I will often see a face that may have flaws but no more than a CIS woman would have and I judge it passable. Another might determine that those normal flaws make the face un passable. In still other cases, I have seen faces that I could never read and yet the person is unwilling to accept that their face is fully feminine. To be honest in judging other, you need to remove the personal element and have standards that all can agree to. I suspect this would be difficult to do but without a standard it would be difficult to determine the quality of a doctors work.
I don't think there is much ->-bleeped-<- here.
Maybe a lot of comments are very focused "on the bright side of things", people like to give support and encourage others. But I don't think they go as far as being dishonest.
For what is worth, I have no affiliation with any plastic surgeon, I consider myself a pretty honest gal, and I can say that virtually all results I had seen (with the exception of very very few malpractice disasters) were a massive improvement over the patients starting points.
Being that said, its worth noting (and it has been pointed on this forums many times) that nowadays plastic surgery may be not enough for some individuals to get what you might say "an unquestionably female appearance". Also it has to be noted that some girls just don't want to go for very aggressive procedures which in some cases may be needed to get an "optimal" result. In my experience, every single time I noticed a standing out masculine feature on a FFS result it was a feature that wasn't addressed by the surgery (for whatever reason) and not a "sub optimal" result.
Just my two cents.
EDIT: Also for what is worth most (if not all) ffs and regular plastic surgeons tend to be pretty conservative with their quotes when it comes to advice which procedures they consider worth doing. And I say this both from my own experience with surgeons and from what I had seen until now.
I love this topic, although I would also like to know exactly what you mean, Doreen. I have been getting the feeling that people do tend to rationalize their not so great ffs results and then immortaize the surgeon. I went to one of those 'immortal'
Surgeons and the emperor doesn't always have clothes. And I'm not happy with my ffs which I went into incredible debt (50k +) to get. So I can see the tendency of the opposite of buyer's remorse. It's buyer's rationalization. You have to do that for self preservation .
But if people are doing that and still touting a surgeon it does others a disservice who go off of those evaluations. Not that we should rely on them 💯 but we do rely on them a good bit, since as a community we do get taken advantage of. And the ffs circuit is cut throat. Like the famous law suit of two famous surgeons cat fighting with each other. It's gross.
I have the problem of real life ->-bleeped-<-ing in that no one is willing to tell me what about me elicits stares and snickers from strangers . So I go on being a hermit even after my ffs.
So yeah this topic hits home in so many ways for me! Thanks for starting it, Doreen!
JuJu
Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 07:41:41 AM
I love this topic, although I would also like to know exactly what you mean, Doreen. I have been getting the feeling that people do tend to rationalize their not so great ffs results and then immortaize the surgeon. I went to one of those 'immortal'
Surgeons and the emperor doesn't always have clothes. And I'm not happy with my ffs which I went into incredible debt (50k +) to get. So I can see the tendency of the opposite of buyer's remorse. It's buyer's rationalization. You have to do that for self preservation .
But if people are doing that and still touting a surgeon it does others a disservice who go off of those evaluations. Not that we should rely on them 💯 but we do rely on them a good bit, since as a community we do get taken advantage of. And the ffs circuit is cut throat. Like the famous law suit of two famous surgeons cat fighting with each other. It's gross.
I have the problem of real life ->-bleeped-<-ing in that no one is willing to tell me what about me elicits stares and snickers from strangers . So I go on being a hermit even after my ffs.
So yeah this topic hits home in so many ways for me! Thanks for starting it, Doreen!
JuJu
Agree 100%. 50k!!!! Damn! I've seen some questionable photo's on the websites of some of the big name surgeons so i think this topic is completely relevant as well.
What you are naming "buyer rationalization" is actually a known phenomena, and may be true for some cases on this subject @JuJubee.
But I really think that different standards may explain quite well for so many many cases where evaluations on the same result vary greatly.
Even when it comes to self evaluation. Remember those girls who get over the moon, almost ecstatic about their changes after just a few months on HRT?
My gut tells me that different standards and own self perception may account for a whole bunch of cases that seem just plain and shameless->-bleeped-<- at a first glance. As I told many girls just don't want dramatic changes (even if they are required to get a "no doubt female" result), even if the procedures were completely free for them (no cost at all).
Same happens to girls that don't pay attention to some features that may be obvious for others.
Anyway Im really sorry you are disappointed with your FFS. May I ask you for more detailed input about it? Also I can get what you mean (and how annoying is) by being ->-bleeped-<-ed to the point no one is giving you useful input about what you may be missing and may be worth fixing.
Hi Wednesday, my ffs story is I had a nose job and type III forehead work done by a Dr who many regard as the best in the ffs biz. He's def the most expensive. I bought into that hype literally. And his bedside manner was harsh and his work is sub par at least his work on me was. My nose is pretty good but my forehead still has bossing. And I am really upset about it. It's better but not what I would expect from all the hype.
Not to discount the opinions here that state some of the FFS Surgeon's results leave much to be desired, but I also see another phenomenon at work. Over time I've watched girls post that this Dr. or that Dr. Wanted to do this or that and they then go on to say that they did't need this or that procedure and said Dr. Is just trying to pad the bill with unnecessary procedures. So they get their forehead or nose or whatever done and ignore their chin, jaw and cheeks that should have been done, but they've decided they simply didn't need. They then bring their results here with a cloying "do I pass?" Most of us don't want to be butt holes that are like, dashing peoples hopes. It makes us look like total jerks. So we say something "constructive" or post nothing at all. Cuz', who wants to be that person that drops the fart bomb that somebody spent 30k or more for absolutely nothing....or (gasp) worse? It just seems interesting that I've seen so many people decide they know better about what they need than the Dr. does, and then complain about or state they received "bad" results. I don't think it's fair to anyone. Not the Doctor and certainly not yourself.
If ->-bleeped-<-ing exists here it's because we all are way too empathetic to be brutally honest or the Poster has made it clear that their questions are leading and hopeful. Problems all seems unavoidable without someone getting vilified and someone else being butt hurt.
Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 11:12:14 AM
Not to discount the opinions here that state some of the FFS Surgeon's results leave much to be desired, but I also see another phenomenon at work. Over time I've watched girls post that this Dr. or that Dr. Wanted to do this or that and they then go on to say that they don't need this or that procedure and the Dr. Is just trying to pad the bill with unnecessary procedures. So they get the forehead or nose or whatever done and ignore the chin, jaw and cheeks that should have been done but they decided they didn't need it. They then bring their results here with a cloying "do I pass?" Most of us don't want to be jerks that are dashing peoples hope. It makes us look like jerks. So we say something "costructive" or nothing at all. Cuz', who wants to be that person that drops the fart bomb that somebody spent 30k or more for nothing....or worse? It just seems interesting that I've seen so many people decide they know better what they need than the Dr., and then complain about or just plain """ bad results. I don't think it's fair to anyone. Not the Doctor and certainly not yourself.
If ->-bleeped-<-ing exists here it's because we all are to empathetic to be brutally honest or the Poster has made it clear that their questions are leading and hopeful. It just all seems unavoidable without someone getting vilified and someone else being butt hurt
I agree with you Jentay! It's not easy deprogramming humans to be brutally honest when it may help the person asking for opinions in the long run but the person dropping the honesty could get vilified for it. I know I want brutal honesty because my family dynamics were such that if you're not brutally honest with me then I can't trust you. It's tough finding people who are honest and come from a place where they want to help you rather than bash you. Cuz being honest is an investment. you have to deal with the fallout. And most people don't want to.
Another thing is on this site and any site, judging passability is not easy from a picture. I bet a ton of cis girls could post pics and we'd all think, um no you can't pass. Oh humans!!
They say 68% of statistics are made up on the spot...
I've noticed that 103% of all ->-bleeped-<- or brutal honesty threads are started by someone who doesn't show themselves. And that's fine, it just makes the rhetoric empty to me.
Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 11:28:00 AM
Another thing is on this site and any site, judging passability is not easy from a picture. I bet a ton of cis girls could post pics and we'd all think, um no you can't pass. Oh humans!!
Boy isn't that the truth. Two points here. Many of us are overly critical (enough with the type III forehead work everyone supposedly needs) and on the other end of the do I Pass?, spectrum. Pictures lie. They make us look worse, they make us look better....they make us look like someone else. Few are posting extemporaneous candid shots. They're generally one in a hundred and all in ideal lighting from perfect angles. The only thing any of us can actually comment on rgarding "passing", is does that picture pass. I can't possibly tell if YOU pass till I'm in a room with you talking to you. Which is the reason why I don't engage in the Do I Pass threads, so I dont have to ->-bleeped-<- regarding something that is absolutely impossible to assess.
Ok so this is by far my most favorite topic . If anyone is in the NYC area and cares
To give an honest I will even take brutally honest opinion on how I present , let me know. Do they have trans conventions or something where things like this take place??
Yes, I think there is a lot of this happening.
I saw a number of faces post FFS that I would still say should have done more or that look not "100% passable" or more often that look "jumbled" - like the forehead is feminine but the chin is masculine, almost like a mixed puzzle of two people. But people will tell them they look good because they want to hear it or say that they are so happy and no one wants to bust in with "well, if its good enough for you to be happy, fine, but I would not be happy with it, so maybe I should choose a different surgeon".
Sometimes I even see such pictures presented in galleries or on online posts or ads made by the surgeons or associates which puzzles me because I am not sure if the surgeons really like those outcomes or if they feel compelled to put them online if a patient gives an ok. I think often the patient or sometimes also the surgeons and probably other patients said that something is not needed and then its missing, but occasionally those parts have actually been worked on and still are not so good.
But its really hard to say so publicly because the general consent is to be uplifting, that trans people already suffer so much abuse that at least we should be saying always nice things. In addition to that, if surgeons or their associates read in a forum or group, it is a lot harder to comment negatively on them - I saw occasionally posts retracted because of this - former patients do not want to be publicly critical about the surgeons, patients who have a surgeon on their short list also do not want to ask too much ... its really complicated
I think how much surgeons recommend varies a lot. I have gotten quotes for only two minor procedures and I have gotten some for about 10 procedures to be done in 2 separate surgeries... This make sit increadibly hard to really choose what is needed. If a lot of people tell you that you do not need a procedure or that you do not need FFS at all but some will tell you to do everything possible - who do you believe?
Yup jentay, and to me it looks that many of those "results that leave much to be desired" are mostly due to what you addressed (people skipping really needed job) and to the fact that many people asks for very subtle/natural changes when it may take a much aggressive approach to obtain an optimal result.
I think people has to be way more aware about how things work and about what they can get.
For example, many people is scared about looking fake or too plastic, but for some, their only option may be to look a bit plastic if they want to look solidly feminine.
Also (and after many years seeing lots of results, plus having myself some jobs done) I really can't find anything (like average quality in their results) that justifies neither the great hype nor the high quotes from some one of them.
To me, when it comes to surgeons fees for example, they could be based in anything but in an outstanding, really well above average, quality of work.
Common sense tells to me that this being more of a science oriented to perform previously studied procedures than of a sort of "freestyle" art where you can do whatever you want being the only limit your own cratives... It turns out pretty clear to me that almost no room is left for personal contribution (therefore not close enough to make differences).
In my opinion results are highly constrained (if not completely decided)
- Techniques used. They have limitations on what they are able to achieve, risks and drawbacks that are just the same for any surgeon no matter his skill or talent.
- The starting point you have. Since its not like painting on a blank canvas, this is pretty much the other thing that may constrain the outcomes.
Oh I'm pretty happy with my results overall, I think I look good...now if you look REAL close to my skin I see bad flaws & stuff. BUT that being said, I still have that residual concern ... that folks aren't completely honest. Plus this unrealistic expectation to look as cute as the models on tv lol. Still, there is always that ... worry... that it wasn't enough. Like sometimes you get this sense someone is questioning you, though its probably all psycho-somatic in the first place. I probably just need to go out with a 'screw it' attitude and dress up to the 9 for myself, and not care what others may or may not be thinking. I WANTED the surgeon to be as aggressive as needed... I actually asked him specifically to be so before I went under. I'd rather be rehashed and cute than have to go multiple times and waste tons of money that I don't have.
Additionally:
You're right though in that we all tend to be overly observant of specific details, things that generally don't happen in the cis-populace.
Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 12:16:42 PM
Ok so this is by far my most favorite topic . If anyone is in the NYC area and cares
To give an honest I will even take brutally honest opinion on how I present , let me know. Do they have trans conventions or something where things like this take place??
Get dressed, go shopping and pay attention......really pay attention to how people interact with you. Watch for double takes...hesitation...scrutinizing, misgendering. It's free and far more sincere than anything else you can receive from friends or peers.
Quote from: Doreen on May 22, 2017, 01:08:52 PM
Oh I'm pretty happy with my results overall, I think I look good...now if you look REAL close to my skin I see bad flaws & stuff. BUT that being said, I still have that residual concern ... that folks aren't completely honest. Plus this unrealistic expectation to look as cute as the models on tv lol. Still, there is always that ... worry... that it wasn't enough. Like sometimes you get this sense someone is questioning you, though its probably all psycho-somatic in the first place. I probably just need to go out with a 'screw it' attitude and dress up to the 9 for myself, and not care what others may or may not be thinking.
You're right though in that we all tend to be overly observant of specific details, things that generally don't happen in the cis-populace.
Yes, and refering to skin or whatever particulae attribute, it begs the question, are we trying to look feminine, or look like Barbie. Cuz' they really are two different issues and are quite regularly conflated. I just want to pass and be accepted by the muggles. I have no delusion nor do I want to end up addicted to plastic surgery. I've enough issues to keep me occupied. ;)
I don't get double takes... what I do get is unabashed staring. Apparently noone informed folks its not nice to stare. Its like a deer in the headlight GAZE until I wave or smile or something. This is a new experience to me... I don't think its being 'read' that's causing it, but who knows maybe it is. I didn't get this before ffs. As far as interactions go, guys sometimes ACT like a deer caught in the headlight... even some girls or children. Again, new experience.. odd to deal with.
Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
Get dressed, go shopping and pay attention......really pay attention to how people interact with you. Watch for double takes...hesitation...scrutinizing, misgendering. It's free and far more sincere than anything else you can receive from friends or peers.
Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
Get dressed, go shopping and pay attention......really pay attention to how people interact with you. Watch for double takes...hesitation...scrutinizing, misgendering. It's free and far more sincere than anything else you can receive from friends or peers.
You nailed it. thanks for confirming this approach. The gut instinct is never wrong. Yep! I get the double takes and the micro expressions from random strangers I interact with or simply walk by that show disgust or dissapproval. Thing is I need someone to tell me what it is that is so jarring. Is it was he forehead which is much better, is it my lower face? Am I simply ugly? I don't see what could be so jarring. Yet no one will tell me.
I even pay a shrink to tell me the truth and he says maybe they're just looking at you cuz you're attractive. That's a cop out. If I were so attractive I would have men falling over me. I can assure you I do not!!
Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 01:09:20 PM
Get dressed, go shopping and pay attention......really pay attention to how people interact with you. Watch for double takes...hesitation...scrutinizing, misgendering. It's free and far more sincere than anything else you can receive from friends or peers.
Well depending on what you dress like, you may get stares either way ;)
I sometimes thought it would be great to have someone do a "passing test". Like walk 10 meters behind you while you walk through a pedestrian zone or shopping mall, browsing and shopping maybe - and that other person just follows and observes the people, maybe even talks to them if they do stare massively. That other person should probably be cis to not risk changing the reactions. It would be interesting. Because if oneself is trying to look around, people will either change their behaviour and try to avoid staring - at least until you turn the back on them - or looking around all the time will draw more attention.
I have little clue if I always pass. I assume usually I do, some people look at me longer than I feel comfortable, but I have no idea why. No one bats an eye if I buy female hygiene products though and at least at work I was asked if I want to have kids or if I am having my period if I happen to be really in a bad mood on one day, so I assume its ok there.
When I was overweight, I got a lot of double takes and stares - so I wonder - do I "pass" better now with less weight or were those people only staring and double-taking me because they were staring at that very fat woman?
To be honest I've never gotten the 'disgust' look.. Oh I've seen it, but only when I was with another trans and it was directed AT the other trans. I do get men hitting on me, (as well as a few women), but its usually older men lol. I'm talking creepy 60+ year olds! I am *so* not into that. I also partly think its how you dress that might get odd looks... Though I dress cute and conservative. I can show you a private picture IF you're honest with my attire/style/ overall look. And I'll be 100% honest too with yours.
Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 01:38:51 PM
You nailed it. thanks for confirming this approach. The gut instinct is never wrong. Yep! I get the double takes and the micro expressions from random strangers I interact with or simply walk by that show disgust or dissapproval. Thing is I need someone to tell me what it is that is so jarring. Is it was he forehead which is much better, is it my lower face? Am I simply ugly? I don't see what could be so jarring. Yet no one will tell me.
I even pay a shrink to tell me the truth and he says maybe they're just looking at you cuz you're attractive. That's a cop out. If I were so attractive I would have men falling over me. I can assure you I do not!!
You guys know.....beautiful and unusual looking women get stared at too. Staring is generally rude but it isn't always because you've been clocked. You really want to know? Get in a room of 5 year olds. Goodbye filters....hello truth. :D
QuoteWell depending on what you dress like, you may get stares either way ;)
Wait.....are you saying??? hose, 5 inch platforms, platinum blond hair, full make-up and a shiny mini dress will draw scrutinizing attention???....lol
Its funny you use that as a saying because I help out a bunch of 5 year old kids in an exercise class lol! Other than the unabashed staring that comes even from them, most are perfectly appropriate with me. And honestly if they saw me as as something 'else' they'd definitely be asking. You are absolutely correct in the lack of filters in that age group. I'm probably just overtly paranoid .
Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 01:48:54 PM
You guys know.....beautiful and unusual looking women get stared at too. Staring is generally rude but it isn't always because you've been clocked. You really want to know? Get in a room of 5 year olds. Goodbye filters....hello truth. :D
Quote from: Doreen on May 22, 2017, 01:24:40 PM
I don't get double takes... what I do get is unabashed staring. Apparently noone informed folks its not nice to stare. Its like a deer in the headlight GAZE until I wave or smile or something. This is a new experience to me... I don't think its being 'read' that's causing it, but who knows maybe it is. I didn't get this before ffs. As far as interactions go, guys sometimes ACT like a deer caught in the headlight... even some girls or children. Again, new experience.. odd to deal with.
Lol I know what you mean 100%. In my experience those "blank stares" (liked how you described them, deer caught in the headlight) which I also find somehow "dumb", are usually due to the boy just being kind of captivated by your appearance. Which is pretty usual for boys given how visual they are and to the fact they are most of the time "on the mood", always available to have sex, and blabla. Just boys being boys.
And many times they wouldn't be easy to figure out, since they usually may not be very expressive (even when it comes to facial expressions) and have most of the time this poker face.
Also it worth be noted that sometimes you can get exactly the same expression along its correspondent stare for completely different reasons. If you are really intrigued about why they are looking at you, a bit of casual interaction may throw light on it very quickly.
I can show you a private picture IF you're honest with my attire/style/ overall look. And I'll be 100% honest too with yours.
[/quote]
It sounds like you've figured out that your look is fine, probably better than fine. and you're being overly paranoid. The 5 year olds test is fool proof 😊 But if you still wanna swap pics for feedback I would welcome that. I will send some real life pics in real life lighting. I ask for nothing but honesty too and that's all I have is honesty. 😐
OK sent your a private message with a couple links. Thanks. I just ask not to make these 'public'.
Quote from: Jujubee on May 22, 2017, 02:08:45 PM
I can show you a private picture IF you're honest with my attire/style/ overall look. And I'll be 100% honest too with yours.
It sounds like you've figured out that your look is fine, probably better than fine. and you're being overly paranoid. The 5 year olds test is fool proof 😊 But if you still wanna swap pics for feedback I would welcome that. I will send some real life pics in real life lighting. I ask for nothing but honesty too and that's all I have is honesty. 😐
So true about the kids. They helped me figure out last time I was really unsure and had some misgenderings after so many years what it was - they just straight told me "you have a mans voice", so that was pretty unambiguous. It helped me to decide what to do next at that time - so I got my voice surgery. Now, things are probably just up to me unless I happen to end up in another kindergarten class to teach for a weekend.
Quote from: jentay1367 on May 22, 2017, 11:12:14 AM
Not to discount the opinions here that state some of the FFS Surgeon's results leave much to be desired, but I also see another phenomenon at work. Over time I've watched girls post that this Dr. or that Dr. Wanted to do this or that and they then go on to say that they don't need this or that procedure and the Dr. Is just trying to pad the bill with unnecessary procedures. So they get the forehead or nose or whatever done and ignore the chin, jaw and cheeks that should have been done but they decided they didn't need. They then bring their results here with a cloying "do I pass?" Most of us don't want to be jerks that are dashing peoples hope. It makes us look like jerks. So we say something "costructive" or nothing at all. Cuz', who wants to be that person that drops the fart bomb that somebody spent 30k or more for nothing....or worse? It just seems interesting that I've seen so many people decide they know better what they need than the Dr., and then complain about or just plain "bad" results. I don't think it's fair to anyone. Not the Doctor and certainly not yourself.
If ->-bleeped-<-ing exists here it's because we all are too empathetic to be brutally honest or the Poster has made it clear that their questions are leading and hopeful. It just all seems unavoidable without someone getting vilified and someone else being butt hurt
I could not agree anymore. Seems there's a trend to feeling like "you don't need much, when in actuality .. you needed the whole darn list. I viewed one YouTube girls result..and she was one of the ones that vouched not to get everything because she didn't feel it.. she still looka lika man .
This topic reminds me of this Seinfeld episode
Where Kramer blurts out George's gf
Needs a nose job. We need more Kramers in this world.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JNzNEn5jwvs
A surgeon can only do so much... I've seen some tranz who have very passable faces, but when they start to move it's all man. As for me, I went to Dr. Z and got the lower face done. He says I am borderline with the forehead. I'' probably going back to get that done. Realistically, I pass well enough to get through life with only minor problems. ( The US is so obsessed with race that my entire family gets stared at and people will be bold enough to ask about our ethnicity.) For some of us, the surgeons can only do so much. There is also a difference between making someone beautiful vs. passable. Sometimes it works out that you get both-sometimes you get neither. I think we have to keep that in mind and also that surgery comes with risks all the way around.
I just didn't want to go half-way with ffs and regret it. I passed (sort of) before. So of course here I am
today. waltzing through the local grocery store... and this 16 year old kid does a double take, a triple take... he proceeds to look, look away, look, look away.. like he has some kind of spastic tick. AGAIN its the old 'deer in headlight' phenomenon with the looks too. Its just so weird?! OMG I hope I never did that back in the 'old' days. And again, it wasn't the 'what is that ewwww' kinda look either.
I just kind of coyly smiled. Maybe I should've asked him if my nose was performing tricks lol.
Quote from: Maria77 on May 22, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
A surgeon can only do so much... I've seen some tranz who have very passable faces, but when they start to move it's all man. As for me, I went to Dr. Z and got the lower face done. He says I am borderline with the forehead. I'' probably going back to get that done. Realistically, I pass well enough to get through life with only minor problems. ( The US is so obsessed with race that my entire family gets stared at and people will be bold enough to ask about our ethnicity.) For some of us, the surgeons can only do so much. There is also a difference between making someone beautiful vs. passable. Sometimes it works out that you get both-sometimes you get neither. I think we have to keep that in mind and also that surgery comes with risks all the way around.
Quote from: Maria77 on May 22, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
A surgeon can only do so much... I've seen some tranz who have very passable faces, but when they start to move it's all man. As for me, I went to Dr. Z and got the lower face done. He says I am borderline with the forehead. I'' probably going back to get that done. Realistically, I pass well enough to get through life with only minor problems. ( The US is so obsessed with race that my entire family gets stared at and people will be bold enough to ask about our ethnicity.) For some of us, the surgeons can only do so much. There is also a difference between making someone beautiful vs. passable. Sometimes it works out that you get both-sometimes you get neither. I think we have to keep that in mind and also that surgery comes with risks all the way around.
I'm going to Dr z . Next month.. if you don't mind me asking what all did you?
Quote from: lovelessheart on May 22, 2017, 04:50:25 PM
I could not agree anymore. Seems there's a trend to feeling like "you don't need much, when in actuality .. you needed the whole darn list. I viewed one YouTube girls result..and she was one of the ones that vouched not to get everything because she didn't feel it.. she still looka lika man .
So how can one get a true and honest assessment? I find it hard since surgeons seem to either try and sell you a whole list of all they can do - or shy back and tell you that you do need nothing or just a little bit - asking trans women either you get a whole list - usually by those who had all of it done themselves and think it served them well - also by those who know about all those things - or you get people telling you that you look so good you need nothing and that whoever is commenting would be happy to switch. I even was asked if I was a former patient when I was at a consultation.
I think we probably are going to need more independent counsellors who will get paid for making a good and honest assessment and suggest the best procedures from what is available worldwide. VFFS does something like that, although I guess some people now are questioning the independence, as she works so closely with Facialteam. Still I found her assessment to be quite in the middle between the extremes I heard otherwise.
Quote from: Maria77 on May 22, 2017, 07:00:05 PM
A surgeon can only do so much... I've seen some tranz who have very passable faces, but when they start to move it's all man.
Yes totally. I sometimes saw photos and when I met the person face to face they just appeared a lot more masculine - or in some cases the reverse is true.
Quote from: anjaq on May 23, 2017, 06:17:00 AM
So how can one get a true and honest assessment?
I have been wondering that for years. People close to me are terrified to say anything negative and I don't fully trust plastic surgeons who are in business to change your face. All I can say is I am in nyc and would offer an unbiased assessment to anyone who would like it...at least as unbiased as I can possibly be given the fact I'm in the same boat 😊. I wish we had this service avail to us outside of VFFS. The in-person assessment I think is so much more valuable.
Quote from: Jujubee on May 23, 2017, 06:58:19 AM
I have been wondering that for years. People close to me are terrified to say anything negative and I don't fully trust plastic surgeons who are in business to change your face.
Yes - which would usually mean that a surgeonwould tend to sell you more than needed, rather than less, but apparently they also try to be careful to not be judged as salespeople, so I do not know how they determine how much they will suggest. People close to oneself are the worst. They almost always will say that they love you as you are and you do not need to pay a lot of money and change the face. They want you to stay as you are, as they know you and think the money is better spend on a really cool vacation or a small house.
QuoteAll I can say is I am in nyc and would offer an unbiased assessment to anyone who would like it...
Sadly thats a bit far for me. But nice for those nearby. I guess a lot of these things have to go over the internet, as local communities are pretty small. I went to a local group some 2 years ago and it was pathetic. Maybe 15 people. I tried to talk about my voice surgery and to say it is working and a viable solution but people were not interested at all, they preferred to drink a beer and chat about the troubles they have with work and family because coming out, I guess.
I honestly found the easiest way is to do closeup pics and maybe a youtube short clip of you chatting... you can see so much more than a simple snapshot this way. Behaviors, mannerisms, voice, its all there in an actual video recording. Of course the best test is 'real life' where either you get sirred or mammed.
Well if you get sirred in any situation, then that is of course very obvious. But between that and being regarded as just another woman is still a mile. At least where I live, few people would be so rude and call a person obviously presenting as female "sir". One has to look for more soft clues about the perception of other people.
Quote from: anjaq on May 23, 2017, 02:53:06 PM
Well if you get sirred in any situation, then that is of course very obvious. But between that and being regarded as just another woman is still a mile. At least where I live, few people would be so rude and call a person obviously presenting as female "sir". One has to look for more soft clues about the perception of other people.
I agree about the soft queues. I'm going to wax philosophical here, but I hope in generations to come the trans people won't have to conform so rigidly or the gender rules will be so loose that they will simply be accepted
For how they were born. We unfortunately are eons away from that.
Quote from: Jujubee on May 23, 2017, 02:59:15 PM
I agree about the soft queues. I'm going to wax philosophical here, but I hope in generations to come the trans people won't have to conform so rigidly or the gender rules will be so loose that they will simply be accepted
For how they were born. We unfortunately are eons away from that.
Hate to say it, Juju....but we're eons away from any of us treating each other respectfully on any consistent basis. Trans folks dont have the market cornered on being disrespected or treated with equanimity. :embarrassed:
Quote from: jentay1367 on May 23, 2017, 03:06:43 PM
Hate to say it, Juju....but we're eons away from any of us treating each other respectfully on any consistent basis. Trans folks dont have the market cornered on being disrespected or treated with equanimity. :embarrassed:
You're right JenTay! That's why my dream is to have an island where I take care of abandoned, injured or orphaned animals along with my team of robots (no humans allowed!).
Quote from: Jujubee on May 23, 2017, 03:13:11 PM
You're right JenTay! That's why my dream is to have an island where I take care of abandoned, injured or orphaned animals along with my team of robots (no humans allowed!).
A wonderful aspiration! Go get em' Sweetie!
Quote from: anjaq on May 23, 2017, 02:53:06 PM
Well if you get sirred in any situation, then that is of course very obvious. But between that and being regarded as just another woman is still a mile. At least where I live, few people would be so rude and call a person obviously presenting as female "sir". One has to look for more soft clues about the perception of other people.
Same as here. Misgendering only would happen to the most unpassable folks, and it would be regarded as rude by most people. One thing that might happen more often is to be addressed/treated in a neutral way without gendering you at all. Still this only would happen to very unpassable folks (and to some really andogynous people as well).
When I'm honest on this forum people complain and say my posts are "harsh" and they get edited by mods. Lol. People don't like honesty.
I haven't seen any FFS that didn't result in the person looking like a female.
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I've seen FFS results that .. at least to ME still flag that as 'something other' than female. Granted they look more female on many of the pre-post, but completely female? Not everyone. I wish it weren't so, but it is what it is to me. That doesn't mean I'm rude or mean or disrespectful to them, after all, they've struggled (many of them) VERY hard to get to where they are, even going through multiple operations.. but in the end I personally just don't want to have to 'deal' with ... 'what is it?' looks. Just my 2 cents worth.
Quote from: RavenMoon on May 24, 2017, 10:40:33 AM
When I'm honest on this forum people complain and say my posts are "harsh" and they get edited by mods. Lol. People don't like honesty.
I haven't seen any FFS that didn't result in the person looking like a female.
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Quote from: Doreen on May 24, 2017, 11:32:27 AM
I've seen FFS results that .. at least to ME still flag that as 'something other' than female. Granted they look more female on many of the pre-post, but completely female? Not everyone. I wish it weren't so, but it is what it is to me. That doesn't mean I'm rude or mean or disrespectful to them, after all, they've struggled (many of them) VERY hard to get to where they are, even going through multiple operations.. but in the end I personally just don't want to have to 'deal' with ... 'what is it?' looks. Just my 2 cents worth.
Yeah, sometimes there are subtle cues that lead us to question someone's sex. I think we've all seen people we aren't sure about.
But I think just from looking at the face, FFS does what it's set out to do. But you do see some people that either left some features alone, or didn't want anything to drastic because they don't want to look like a different person. I think that defeats the whole purpose!
And of course it's very expensive. And some faces need more work than others.
Also feminization and beautification are separate things. I know for myself that I'm considered an attractive guy, even though I dislike those aspects of my face. My goal with FFS is to be able to walk down the street and not look like a man in a dress. That's my biggest fear. After that, will I be attractive? I at least hope I'm cute. Lol. I'm not expecting to look like a model. But I've done my own virtual FFS (I'm a professional photo editor) and I'm pretty happy with a smaller nose and a few other tweaks. I'll never have full lips, but I dislike the way lip augmentation looks.
I'm never rude to people. But like when someone that hasn't had FFS asks if they pass, and they have a big honking male nose, I'll politely point that out. And that's the opposite of "->-bleeped-<-" which I refuse to do. It doesn't help anyone if you lie to them.
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You did make some very valid points there, as I usually ask the ones that said they had FFS and they claim to be getting a separate procedure later, or liked their 'square jaw' or some other crap that is a red herring. Yes I totally agree.. walk down the street (or in my case the middle of the VAMC) and not have a single problem :) Other than guys staring at your butt or something of course.
Quote from: RavenMoon on May 24, 2017, 11:43:31 AM
Yeah, sometimes there are subtle cues that lead us to question someone's sex. I think we've all seen people we aren't sure about.
But I think just from looking at the face, FFS does what it's set out to do. But you do see some people that either left some features alone, or didn't want anything to drastic because they don't want to look like a different person. I think that defeats the whole purpose!
And of course it's very expensive. And some faces need more work than others.
Also feminization and beautification are separate things. I know for myself that I'm considered an attractive guy, even though I dislike those aspects of my face. My goal with FFS is to be able to walk down the street and not look like a man in a dress. That's my biggest fear. After that, will I be attractive? I at least hope I'm cute. Lol. I'm not expecting to look like a model. But I've done my own virtual FFS (I'm a professional photo editor) and I'm pretty happy with a smaller nose and a few other tweaks. I'll never have full lips, but I dislike the way lip augmentation looks.
I'm never rude to people. But like when someone that hasn't had FFS asks if they pass, and they have a big honking male nose, I'll politely point that out. And that's the opposite of "->-bleeped-<-" which I refuse to do. It doesn't help anyone if you lie to them.
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I think maybe one reason for bad results from ffs is that people don't take time to research their doctor. It's understandable. You've waited so long to be yourself you get antsy. I was kind of like that with my FMS. But I wanted good results so I chilled out and did some research. A doctor who is board certified and has a good reputation is important but it doesn't guarantee good results. One guy I talked to is well known here in Florida for doing SRS procedures. But most of his work was on MtF. So I kept looking until I found someone who specialized in FtM procedures. I asked for pictures of his work and asked to speak with people he had worked on who were willing to share their experiences with his work. He did my top surgery and my facial maculinization. This stuff is major expensive. Thankfully my dad paid for mine. If you are gonna drop that kind of money then don't be afraid to ask questions, ask for pictures and most important ask to talk to people they have worked on. If they don't wanna give you anyone then don't let them do your surgery. People who are real happy with their cosmetic surgeries are usually happy to talk to others who are thinking about using their doctor. If the doctor you are considering can't give you at least six people willing to talk about their procedures then I'd take that as a big warning sign.
Lucas
Quote from: RavenMoon
When I'm honest on this forum people complain and say my posts are "harsh" and they get edited by mods. Lol. People don't like honesty.
I haven't read anything from you I could consider harsh so maybe I'm missing some events. IMHO it's not like people don't like honesty, its just (the most) are trapped in their own bucles of insecurity. So if you say them they look great, you're being a cheerleader, humoring and ->-bleeped-<-. If you say they don't look good then you're pretty harsh wich hurts them and you get drama because they hadn't read what they wanted. Problem? Not even up to you girl, it's just their loop.
Even if they got a holly molly titanic amount of verifiable and true validation, they'll be always facing some degree of uncertainy (thats pretty much how logic, brains, and that stuff work) so the endless loop of self-doubting and questioning would start again.
Quote from: Wednesday on May 24, 2017, 05:24:45 PM
I haven't read anything from you I could consider harsh so maybe I'm missing some events. IMHO it's not like people don't like honesty, its just (the most) are trapped in their own bucles of insecurity. So if you say them they look great, you're being a cheerleader, humoring and ->-bleeped-<-. If you say they don't look good then you're pretty harsh wich hurts them and you get drama because they hadn't read what they wanted. Problem? Not even up to you girl, it's just their loop.
Even if they got a holly molly titanic amount of verifiable and true validation, they'll be always facing some degree of uncertainy (thats pretty much how logic, brains, and that stuff work) so the endless loop of self-doubting and questioning would start again.
That's absolutely true. It's a "can't win situation" or a "don't shoot the messenger" thing.
What could go wrong with walking through a minefield? :D
Quote from: jentay1367 on May 24, 2017, 06:18:18 PM
What could go wrong with walking through a minefield? :D
Pretty much the same thing thats gonna eventually happen if you got stuck and don't walk through it: you'll end up resting six feet under. Sadly that's the only thing you can really take for granted :D