Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So I learned that I really don't pass even after having ffs.
Had a co-worker talked to be about same-sex marriage and asked me when I was going to get married to my bf.
All of that hard work for nothing and now I feel like a failure.

I'm having thoughts of just taking estrogen but going back to living socially as male.
I don't want to but being clocked is severely depressing.

So how do I learn to live as a non-passing trans person?

We have had this discussion before. Image wise, you are very passable. A picture doesn't tell us about your mannerism, body language and voice. All of those things can be addressed if they are the source of the problem but you will have to make the effort and you will have to believe.

Unfortunately much of my life I wasn't and may still not be very passable but one thing comes to mind. A gay guy I worked with talked to me about it and even though I wasn't totally passible, he considered me  very  feminine. This was because my mannerism and body language projected a strong feminine image.

As for me, I would be a non passing MTF than returning to my male role and the dysphoria that came with it. I have now live longer as a women than I did as a man and I have been far happier as a woman than I ever was as a man. You will have to make peace with yourself and a therapist might help with that but you will have to do most of the work yourself. 

Which all check out fine and yet I still get clocked.
It's because of my hard face and very broad body.

I agree with Deena. You look very passable in your picture so it maybe is something else. Maybe how you act? Or possibly your attitude?

Dont  so hard on yourself.   We all wish we were perfect females. Getting read is some thing we all hate, but that is over come by our inner happiness of what we  feel. expressing being  and living femme....... just my opinion

Quote from: Julia1996 on June 19, 2017, 06:37:28 PM
I agree with Deena. You look very passable in your picture so it maybe is something else. Maybe how you act? Or possibly your attitude?

Has nothing to do with either one

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
Had a co-worker talked to be about same-sex marriage and asked me when I was going to get married to my bf.

Did this coworker already know you were trans? It could just be that gay marriage equals all LGBT, and not that you were being clocked.

Your appearance in every image I've seen is passing, so you may need to look at other cues that might be reading too male to others, should you actually want to improve your passing.  A serious heart-to-heart talk with a good gender therapist mig also help.  Seriously.   I've led myself on about various things that led to bad states in my head with no real-world cause or means of resolution beyond altering how I thought about things.

As far as changing my gender presentation goes, Not Going To Happen.  I would vastly prefer living as a non-passing Weird Old Lady than as an extremely uncomfortable person trying to pass as male.  I'm happier this way.  Oh, I am still planning on doing everything I can to pass, but as a 63 year old I know there are limits to what medical work can do.

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 06:16:41 PM
It's because of my hard face and very broad body.

It's not the face... I've not see pictures of you decides your avitar, so it's hard to say if your body is the issue... but from that pic it's not obviously so..

Body is an issue I know about ... I have a big wide body and it does get me read even after over 20 years... And Yes I've had FFS (18 years ago) as well as SRS (19 years ago)...

I knew that going in and hoped somehow HRT would eventually make a big enough difference - but it did not...

But while things never went how I had hoped ... I could never go back...

Maybe you just need a new environment, maybe word has gotten out so you are not getting read, but instead outed...

But regardless I can tell you that once you address it, it's awfully hard to bury who you are again... So you have 2 choices ... learn to accept things as they are or keep trying to change things... Easier said that done I know... I never could really do either... and that is not a place you want to be... trust me on that.

- karen

Women come in all shapes and sizes. I am almost 6 feet tall and even though I have lost over 100 pounds, I still weigh more than I would like to. I will never be a petite wisp of a young lady as much as I would like to. I have to accept that and that does not make me any less of a woman. I  just have a past life that I think about less often as time goes on.

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
Had a co-worker talked to be about same-sex marriage and asked me when I was going to get married to my bf.

Did the co=worker know you were trans?  If so,possibly he was thinking that trans-woman = MAN.  Hence FTM + boyfriend = same sex.  It might not have been about passing.

Quote from: Dani on June 22, 2017, 05:57:32 AM
Women come in all shapes and sizes. I am almost 6 feet tall and even though I have lost over 100 pounds, I still weigh more than I would like to. I will never be a petite wisp of a young lady as much as I would like to. I have to accept that and that does not make me any less of a woman. I  just have a past life that I think about less often as time goes on.

While that is true, there is a clear difference between what is masculine and feminine. If you refer to this document, you will understand the differences https://www.humanics-es.com/ADA316646.pdf

Quote from: KathyLauren on June 22, 2017, 10:46:51 PM
Did the co=worker know you were trans?  If so,possibly he was thinking that trans-woman = MAN.  Hence FTM + boyfriend = same sex.  It might not have been about passing.

Nope, they didn't know I was trans in the first place, so.....

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 25, 2017, 10:11:19 AM
Nope, they didn't know I was trans in the first place, so.....

If anybody where you work knows about your past, you have to assume that everybody does. In one job I worked at, the boss used the grapevine to spread information around the company. The only problem was that I wasn't a part of the grapevine so he had to tell me separately. He discovered this by accident when he used it to inform the company about his divorce and much latter I said something that indicated I was clueless.

If you want to be stealth, you must not only pass effectively but you must rewrite all traces of your past. I have seen posts from women who have had to relocated several time to continue a stealth existence. This also includes playing ignorant about LGBT issues. One thing won't out you but the combination of several will. For me it's just to difficult to do everything required for stealth so I don't worry about it.

Hi Angie. Your avatar looks ridiculously feminine. If you want commiseration, perhaps you should post up some pics showing us what it is you're talking about. And if you're getting clocked everywhere, perhaps you're doing something else to bring that attention.


No one thinks this womans not female

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gettyimages.com%2Fphotos%2Fsenior-woman-with-curlers-picture-id157681688%3Fs%3D170667a&hash=5d32444429cf76fc2fedffd903a66ef730f12464)



So post up some pics so we can see what you mean.

That brings up an interesting point. This is a lifetime deal, and with the exception of maybe the rollers, we're all going to look like this. It's easy for me to visualize because I'm a lot closer to it now than a lot of people here. Today it's about the passing, and some tomorrow it's going to be about wanting a feminine looking adult diaper, that someone else has to change for you. Accept the gifts you have and be happy with today. There are no guaranteed tomorrows.

Hugs, Devlyn

" a femine looking adult diaper "  OMG that is totally hilarious. 😂😂

Has to be pink and definitely has pictures of unicorns and rainbows stenciled on them.  Those will be sure to make me crap my pants as femininely as possible.

That's our girl!  :laugh:

But in all seriousness, living a non-passing life is not without risks.  Like this afternoon...

I was out of salad fixings, so I walked to Trader Joe's for groceries, about a block and a half from my apartment.  No incidents, no problems, and I was on my way home, maybe a half block from my front door, when it happened.

A large man, looking like an out of shape linebacker with a patchy beard, was coming the other way.  He stopped, blocking the sidewalk.  "Hey, you a <obscene reference to gay male>?"  Thick accent.  Eastern European?  Uh oh.  Left hand in purse, safety off on the pepper spray. Move toward street.  He matches the move.  "What the <heck>?", I say.  He steps toward me.  I pull out the canister, aim, nozzle toward his eyes, ready to fire, sweep, and run.  "Hey, no pepper! I like <obscenity>!" 

He steps back, and I bolt through right lane and past him.  He laughs.

Maybe I'm making too much of this.  Maybe he's a really nice man who just wanted to give a <obscenity> a big friendly hug.  Maybe I'm just being terribly unaccepting of an alternative lifestyle.  I don't think so.  This had a really, really bad vibe to it.  His posture was aggressive and threatening.  Perhaps that is just the way of his people.  It didn't come across to me that way.

It's been about 6 months since the last time I felt threatened, and that was by a vehicle that seemed to be pacing and following me late one evening.   This was more personal.

I'm home, in a secure building, doors locked now.  It still bothers me.  I was feeling so good today, and then this happened, in a supposedly LGBT friendly area of a definitely LGBT friendly state.

Living a non-passing life has risks.  I'd like to live long enough to be that old lady in curlers, with unicorns and rainbows on the Depends.  This is why I want so very much to pass.   Being non-passing and having to live in hiding, or in fear of simply being able to walk to the grocery store shouldn't be a part of living an 'authentic life'.  Yes, ciswomen face risks.  Trans women who don't pass face those same risks and more.

Sorry you had to deal with that, Michellel Nowhere is safe all the time for anyone. We're even more vulnerable in more places. You dodged a bullet. Thank goodness. Happy we're talking with you and not about you. Freaking narrow minded crazy trogladites are everywhere. Stay on your guard. And for the record, I suspect this piece of garbage harrasses lots of folks, predators don't generally play favorites. Women are raped and beaten and killed every day.
Be careful out there, woman.

A big hug Michelle. That was scary.

I'm so glad that you are safe and well.

Quote from: Cindy on June 25, 2017, 10:08:06 PM
A big hug Michelle. That was scary.

I'm so glad that you are safe and well.

Thanks, Cindy.  Lisa, I really do try to be careful.  Sometimes trouble can find us.

For what it's worth, I'm not going to let this slow me down.  I have three mission items on my list for tomorrow:

1) Re-file with the state healthcare exchange for insurance as a single person.   :P
2) Get my ears pierced
3) Get my nails done.

Those last two inviolve getting out of the house and interacting with strangers.  We'll see who squacks at having me in their chair. ;)

Tuesday I have an appointment to have my eyebrows done at a Benefit Brow Bar.  On the main floor of a very large department store.  Showtime!  (OK, maybe I'm an uncloseted exhibitionist.)

Lots of public exposure for the obvious transwoman.  Get back on that horse, and ride, baby, ride!

I'm all jelly with you out there getting the friggin' treatment! Have fun, hon. Don't let the bastards get you down.

Quote from: Michelle_P on June 25, 2017, 10:22:54 PM
Thanks, Cindy.  Lisa, I really do try to be careful.  Sometimes trouble can find us.

For what it's worth, I'm not going to let this slow me down.  I have three mission items on my list for tomorrow:

1) Re-file with the state healthcare exchange for insurance as a single person.   :P
2) Get my ears pierced
3) Get my nails done.

Those last two inviolve getting out of the house and interacting with strangers.  We'll see who squacks at having me in their chair. ;)

Tuesday I have an appointment to have my eyebrows done at a Benefit Brow Bar.  On the main floor of a very large department store.  Showtime!  (OK, maybe I'm an uncloseted exhibitionist.)

Lots of public exposure for the obvious transwoman.  Get back on that horse, and ride, baby, ride!

Best Dam response out there ...good on you Michelle

Nice piece of work with the pepper spray...Glad you are still here to give us your insight ;)

How many piercings are you getting...2 for each ear?

You are going to feel great after a bit of well deserved pampering...dangly earing are fun!! 

Liz, I'll just follow up over in An update on me... (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,215456.440.html)

My point is that living a non-passing life, we have to be prepared for the occasional transphobe or person with mental health issues being triggered by our presence. We have to be careful about our surroundings, and be aware of how to move and act to protect ourselves.  We have to be prepared for the occasional very unpleasant reminder that some people will clock us, will out us, and will seek to take some action against us. 

We also have to have the sheer stubbornness to get right back out there and continue to live, really live our non-passing lives.  The alternatives are ultimately as bad as denying ourselves the opportunity to transition.

Transition is easy, except when it's not.  A good support system, friends, therapist, perhaps family are something we will need from time to time, if only to vent after the fact.

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
So I learned that I really don't pass even after having ffs.
Had a co-worker talked to be about same-sex marriage and asked me when I was going to get married to my bf.
All of that hard work for nothing and now I feel like a failure.

I'm having thoughts of just taking estrogen but going back to living socially as male.
I don't want to but being clocked is severely depressing.

So how do I learn to live as a non-passing trans person?

Your letter touched me. I, also have something of the same problem. But after years of hrt and nothing else (no money for surgeries), I decided to start growing my hair out. It now is down to the bottom of my shoulders! And the estrogen has made my hair softer and more feminine. It appears to me (is that really you in the photo?) that you do pass! You just don't think you do, but some people are good at picking up on the little things that can give it all away. You just need to have a strong mental image of yourself as a woman, and BE that woman every day.
   Going backward to attempt to "reassert your lateness" is completely useless. You're already across that line!

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 06:16:41 PM
Which all check out fine and yet I still get clocked.
It's because of my hard face and very broad body.

Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Michelle_P on June 26, 2017, 01:27:17 AM
Liz, I'll just follow up over in An update on me... (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,215456.440.html)

My point is that living a non-passing life, we have to be prepared for the occasional transphobe or person with mental health issues being triggered by our presence. We have to be careful about our surroundings, and be aware of how to move and act to protect ourselves.  We have to be prepared for the occasional very unpleasant reminder that some people will clock us, will out us, and will seek to take some action against us. 

We also have to have the sheer stubbornness to get right back out there and continue to live, really live our non-passing lives.  The alternatives are ultimately as bad as denying ourselves the opportunity to transition.

Transition is easy, except when it's not.  A good support system, friends, therapist, perhaps family are something we will need from time to time, if only to vent after the fact.

Michelle - Sorry you had to face that incident. I really like what you have said here and it shows your strength and resolve. Passing personally is a mixed thing to me, when i do i appreciate it and when i don't i often think "What right does anyone have to treat me badly because of my looks? " and then the next day i feel like dressing Tomboy with no makeup just to assert my right to be. (i've done that more than a few times)

It sort of comes down to what your expectations are for life, given what the universe has dealt you. Love of either the sisterly, brotherly or romantic type is way more important than looks. Like you say our support network is a manifestation of the love we have in the world. In a big sense that will beat out a models face and perfect body in an of itself any day. Extremely beautiful people have lots of issues too including issues caused by their extreme beauty.

Humans of all types get treated badly. Women face harassment and sexism. Men face bullying and the sometimes extreme expectation to measure up to other men, Disabled people face ableism, etc. We are going to be no different.

To the OP: I'm truly sorry you are feeling that way and i think sometimes therapy is one of the best ways we can reset expectations of ourselves and our place in the world.

When it comes to passing, it may not be possible 100% of the time. I remember years ago before I knew as much as I do now, I met a colleague of my brother's when I visited his workplace. She was a costume designer for a large theatre company. She towered over me, being broad, tall and having a deep voice. She had the most wonderfully warm personality and confident demeanor. I felt swallowed up in her warmth. Looking back, a bit wiser now, she was a trans woman, no doubt. At the time I thought she was just , well, a woman who was a bit different to the usual ones I've met, but I very much fell in love with her, and that's why I still remember her so vividly.

I mean to say, that there is no way she would have 'passed' but it didn't matter. She was in her element, she loved who she was and what she was doing. She had personality to remember her by.

And I am sure, that if anybody dared to accost her, she would have shrivelled his testes by merely looking at him.

Passing isn't everything, and this will be my most important life lesson as I transition into a trans man.

We need less 'passing' and more acceptance of the diversity of humans among us. This will free all of us from the bonds of stereotyping.

Passing to me is everything. If you pass, people will be less to bother you. People will treat you better.

Passing is determined by you not by others. I used to think if strangers look at me funny then I do not pass. If family, friends, and co workers think I dont pass its because they know who you are.

Looks is only one aspect as others have pointed out. Most tg THINK they have some non passing looks that cannot be physically changed. Height, feet, hands, shoulders, face, chest etc. Some features can be changed. Remember there are so many cis females with what you call male features, they dont get upset. Remember over time on hrt you will change shape and your skin texture will soften your look, loss of muscle bulk will make your shoulders feminine. Your face shape looks passable already.

How do you walk, how you act, how you speak, cough, laugh. How you engage a conversation with a male, female, gay etc.These are the non passing aspects that most strangers pick up on, these aspects can be changed by hard work.

Passing is NOT being pretty, its to look female and act female. Are you talking about looking like a hot female? Thats not passing.

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 11, 2017, 09:05:27 AM
Passing is determined by you not by others. I used to think if strangers look at me funny then I do not pass. If family, friends, and co workers think I dont pass its because they know who you are.

Looks is only one aspect as others have pointed out. Most tg THINK they have some non passing looks that cannot be physically changed. Height, feet, hands, shoulders, face, chest etc. Some features can be changed. Remember there are so many cis females with what you call male features, they dont get upset. Remember over time on hrt you will change shape and your skin texture will soften your look, loss of muscle bulk will make your shoulders feminine. Your face shape looks passable already.

How do you walk, how you act, how you speak, cough, laugh. How you engage a conversation with a male, female, gay etc.These are the non passing aspects that most strangers pick up on, these aspects can be changed by hard work.

Passing is NOT being pretty, its to look female and act female. Are you talking about looking like a hot female? Thats not passing.

Been on hrt for almost 5 years and not one bit of my muscle has diminished. I can still lift 150+ with no problem.
Appearance and mannerisms play a HUGE role, especially appearance. If you don't look it, you're going to have a rough time. also being attractive matters because those who aren't attractive are treated like second-class citizens.
Also my face doesn't pass as there are plenty of masculine features still.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 11, 2017, 01:38:53 PM
Been on hrt for almost 5 years and not one bit of my muscle has diminished. I can still lift 150+ with no problem.
Appearance and mannerisms play a HUGE role, especially appearance. If you don't look it, you're going to have a rough time. also being attractive matters because those who aren't attractive are treated like second-class citizens.
Also my face doesn't pass as there are plenty of masculine features still.

For crying out loud, post up some recent photos that corroborate that  you look male or quit the constant attention seeking. At the very least, pull down the avatar of the woman because she couldn't possibly be you based on all your previous posts.

I sent you pics that showcases the damage

For the record....I got the pictures and you're obsessing. You look fine and 100% female. This info is not to humor you. It is for others who view this thread. If you posted those pictures here...everyone would discard your complaints. Stop crapping in peoples threads.

Quote from: jentay1367 on July 11, 2017, 05:55:19 PM
For the record....I got the pictures and you're obsessing. You look fine and 100% female. This info is not to humor you. It is for others who view this thread. If you posted those pictures here...everyone would discard your complaints. Stop crapping in peoples threads.

Ok, you're clearly ->-bleeped-<-. I shown those pics to other trans forums and consensus from people there was I don't pass at all and I still look like a man. Places like ->-bleeped-<-, true selves, etc with popular trans forums would disagree with you. I could go further into detail but you obviously won't listen.

You answered my question. You are not talking about passing, rather you want to look like a hot female. Thats NOT passing. You should change the thread to" I'm not a hot looking female."

Angieisalone, I saw your threads on ->-bleeped-<-, and obviously everyone said that you were delusional: for all we could see, you were passing.
I also know that you've been complaining for some time, just to see everyone disagree with you.
Seeing you spend much time reiterating your ritual, I'd say you have to work on that dysmorphophobia.
It's far more serious than only dysphoria at this point, you need counseling.

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 12, 2017, 07:13:00 AM
You answered my question. You are not talking about passing, rather you want to look like a hot female. Thats NOT passing. You should change the thread to" I'm not a hot looking female."

HRT has given me a pretty feminine shape in 14 months, but I have absolutely no hope of passing simply because of my masculine face (no money for FFS). I live as a male (AMAB) outside home. No choice. But I have accepted it and am living my life as best I can. I have a family member who complains about things that they have no right to complain about because everything else in life has been handed to them on a golden platter. I quite trying to understand years ago; they don't care. Each of us should try to deal with life as it has been given us. Chronic complaining only serves to bring others down. Just my two cents worth....

Edit: I hope this post sounded complimentary to your quote. Sometimes I don't write clearly...

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 12, 2017, 07:13:00 AM
You answered my question. You are not talking about passing, rather you want to look like a hot female. Thats NOT passing. You should change the thread to" I'm not a hot looking female."

That's only a part of it. Being attractive matters in a big way especially if you are female. Unattractive people are treated like second-class citizens. It's harder to find love, get raises/promotions in a job, etc.

Quote from: swatch on July 13, 2017, 04:13:17 PM
Angieisalone, I saw your threads on ->-bleeped-<-, and obviously everyone said that you were delusional: for all we could see, you were passing.
I also know that you've been complaining for some time, just to see everyone disagree with you.
Seeing you spend much time reiterating your ritual, I'd say you have to work on that dysmorphophobia.
It's far more serious than only dysphoria at this point, you need counseling.

Every time I have proved them wrong with research and evidence. They also get very annoyed when they are proved wrong. I have seen counseling and my therapists would disagree with ->-bleeped-<-.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 19, 2017, 10:23:52 AM
That's only a part of it. Being attractive matters in a big way especially if you are female. Unattractive people are treated like second-class citizens. It's harder to find love, get raises/promotions in a job, etc.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but welcome to the women's room.  This is true for all women in western culture, not just those of us who arrived at our femininity the long way around.  This isn't a passing issue, merely a part of living in a culture that treasures beauty far above skills, intelligence, or even humanity.

The problem isn't within us but within this sick culture.  We, like all women, have to find a way to survive within it.

QuoteEvery time I have proved them wrong with research and evidence. They also get very annoyed when they are proved wrong. I have seen counseling and my therapists would disagree with ->-bleeped-<-.

It sounds, oddly enough, like you are putting considerable energy into researching and trying to validate a non-passing state, in spite of appearance.  That speaks to the degree of self-confidence that you project. 

Our self-confidence when we leave the confines or our home and venture out into the world matters far more than meeting this week's standards of beauty.  An utterly gorgeous woman stepping out into the world, who feels insecure and lacks confidence, or is the slightest bit 'off' arbitrary standards, will be clocked, will have her femininity questioned, whether or not she is trans. (Just look at the crazy media stuff about Lady Gaga.)

There are also folks out there with their own mental issues who will clock anyone that doesn't meet their particular standards, and push to extremes.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-mistaken-transgender-harassed-walmart-bathroom-article-1.2638748 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-mistaken-transgender-harassed-walmart-bathroom-article-1.2638748)

We'll get clocked occasionally.  So will ciswomen.  Do what they do, and laugh it off.

I am a woman.

I am a lesbian.

I am transgender.

Nobody else gets to deny me any of these things.  Oh, they may have their opinions, but they don't change me.  I KNOW who I am. 

Have confidence in who you are.  (And carry pepper spray for the persistent crazies...)

I found life was much easier when I stopped worrying about whether I passed or not. I know who and what I am and have the confidence to back that up. I'm not beautiful, at least not by modern societal standards, but I'm happy. Do I get clocked? Yeah, probably, but it's been a very long time since it's happened in a way that I notice.

I now live the boringly normal life of an Aussie lesbian. Yawn. But as I read this thread, I see a recurring theme, even among those with a feminine appearance, that there is a very obvious lack of confidence with some of you - and that's what is: A) getting you clocked and B) is obvious to all who give you more than a fleeting glance.

Confidence is the keystone to passing, irrespective of looks, without confidence in who you are, there is no passing. Or you can just stop worrying about it - but that requires confidence too.

So if you are impassable like me & its all about confidence! How the f##k do I get it can I buy it from some one because that great man in the sky is a calling my name, sisters like me or Louth me  I really do need your help

Quote from: coldHeart on July 19, 2017, 06:35:16 PM
So if you are impassable like me & its all about confidence! How the f##k do I get it can I buy it from some one because that great man in the sky is a calling my name, sisters like me or Louth me  I really do need your help

Where to find confidence? Well, I faked it until one day I realised I wasn't faking it any more.

Quote from: coldHeart on July 19, 2017, 06:35:16 PM
So if you are impassable like me & its all about confidence! How the f##k do I get it can I buy it from some one because that great man in the sky is a calling my name, sisters like me or Louth me  I really do need your help

You cannot buy it honey, but you can grow your own in your little garden. When I am out, any time I was scared of doing something because of insecurity or shame, and I caught myself in being scared, I'll force myself to do it. Once done, it ain't scary anymore and your confidence grows.

I knew I cannot pass since age 16 (maybe that's why I did not seek transition then, or lack of knowledge of medical miracles making it possible). Still, how often you see cis-girls over 6' tall? Whatever, I decided that I won't even look for passability, but rather focus on me looking sexy and confident trans-lady, and not a cross dresser who is ashamed of himself and go deep length to unsuccessfully hide all male traces to the point of suffering from physical self-torture (not that I haven't tried that route first).

As soon as I stopped pretending that I am a cis-female and started presenting myself as a trans-female who knows she's cute but doesn't care if other people approve her, people (regular people on streets and everywhere) started to approve me and give me lots of praise and compliments :))

Or let me put it another way, the less artificially stressed about your vanity you are, the more naturally pleasant and likable person you present yourself in social communication, the easier to other people is to ignore your male traits and accept you as a lady


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I don't care if I am clocked or not.... actually that is not completely true, I do care sometimes. But I used to care that I was getting clocked...all...the....time. but now I care far less about it and just get on with my life. I am still just into my Second year on HRT and living fulltime only a number of months. I try to be confident(fake it till you make it) and  don't appear androgynous. I simply wear what most women of my age and statue would wear.

Anyone making a cursory glance at me would clock me, but I can either live in that miserable hell of Dysphoria or I can be me. I understand our cultures are going to be different but it is very very rare for me to note anyone openly ridiculing me. Whether or not they are doing it behind my back...well...so what, let them.

You have the right to be you and to live an authentic life. No one has the right to decide or try and take that from you.

Quote from: kelly_aus on July 19, 2017, 06:17:09 PM
Confidence is the keystone to passing, irrespective of looks, without confidence in who you are, there is no passing.

While confidence helps with passing , it alone is not sufficient... Those that have too many prominent physical tells WILL get read regardless of confidence level... that goes for voice and manor as well.

30 years ago passing was a lot easier... but with the widespread T* awareness that now exists the physical is bigger a factor than ever...

That said, the consequences of getting read are a Lot less in many places now than they were.


- Karen

Quote from: Karen_A on July 19, 2017, 08:50:45 PM
While confidence helps with passing , it alone is not sufficient... Those that have too many prominent physical tells WILL get read regardless of confidence level... that goes for voice and manor as well.

30 years ago passing was a lot easier... but with the widespread T* awareness that now exists the physical is bigger a factor than ever...

That said, the consequences of getting read are a Lot less in many places now than they were.


- Karen

Based on my own personal experiences and the experiences of others I know personally, I'll disagree. I'm a walking advertisement of physical tells.. And my voice? Don't ask about that. And yet, I've not been run out of the ladies room or had any similar issues. I can only attribute it to owning who I am, it's not my looks that get me in the door.

EDIT: But hey, I've only been living as a woman for 7 years, so maybe I'm just confused.

Quote from: Michelle_P on July 19, 2017, 10:58:21 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but welcome to the women's room.  This is true for all women in western culture, not just those of us who arrived at our femininity the long way around.  This isn't a passing issue, merely a part of living in a culture that treasures beauty far above skills, intelligence, or even humanity.

The problem isn't within us but within this sick culture.  We, like all women, have to find a way to survive within it.

It sounds, oddly enough, like you are putting considerable energy into researching and trying to validate a non-passing state, in spite of appearance.  That speaks to the degree of self-confidence that you project. 

Our self-confidence when we leave the confines or our home and venture out into the world matters far more than meeting this week's standards of beauty.  An utterly gorgeous woman stepping out into the world, who feels insecure and lacks confidence, or is the slightest bit 'off' arbitrary standards, will be clocked, will have her femininity questioned, whether or not she is trans. (Just look at the crazy media stuff about Lady Gaga.)

There are also folks out there with their own mental issues who will clock anyone that doesn't meet their particular standards, and push to extremes.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-mistaken-transgender-harassed-walmart-bathroom-article-1.2638748 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-mistaken-transgender-harassed-walmart-bathroom-article-1.2638748)

We'll get clocked occasionally.  So will ciswomen.  Do what they do, and laugh it off.

I am a woman.

I am a lesbian.

I am transgender.

Nobody else gets to deny me any of these things.  Oh, they may have their opinions, but they don't change me.  I KNOW who I am. 

Have confidence in who you are.  (And carry pepper spray for the persistent crazies...)

On close inspection, anyone can tell I'm male.
My face is still very strong along with my body. The evidence I use to prove people wrong is https://www.humanics-es.com/ADA316646.pdf
Almost all of my measurements fall into the 50%+ percentile in the male category. Genetics screwed me HARD. VERY VERY HARD. Makes me wonder why I even did this in the first place?

Edie: actually it depends on the area of my body. Some get 10-20% male and others get higher. Some are in female range but that is only for girls who are HUGE.

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
So I learned that I really don't pass even after having ffs.
Had a co-worker talked to be about same-sex marriage and asked me when I was going to get married to my bf.
All of that hard work for nothing and now I feel like a failure.

I'm having thoughts of just taking estrogen but going back to living socially as male.
I don't want to but being clocked is severely depressing.

So how do I learn to live as a non-passing trans person?

Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it, and guess what? People treat me fine. People hold doors for me. Life is a mirror, put a sour face forward and you'll get sour faces back. Smile, and the world smiles with you. Best wishes.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 20, 2017, 06:48:32 AM
Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DohRa9lsx0Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DohRa9lsx0Q)

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 20, 2017, 06:48:32 AM
Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it, and guess what? People treat me fine. People hold doors for me. Life is a mirror, put a sour face forward and you'll get sour faces back. Smile, and the world smiles with you. Best wishes.

Hugs, Devlyn

Not where I live. Where I live gender presentation must be on point because if it isn't, you're dicked.

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 11, 2017, 09:05:27 AM
Passing is determined by you not by others. I used to think if strangers look at me funny then I do not pass. If family, friends, and co workers think I dont pass its because they know who you are.

Looks is only one aspect as others have pointed out. Most tg THINK they have some non passing looks that cannot be physically changed. Height, feet, hands, shoulders, face, chest etc. Some features can be changed. Remember there are so many cis females with what you call male features, they dont get upset. Remember over time on hrt you will change shape and your skin texture will soften your look, loss of muscle bulk will make your shoulders feminine. Your face shape looks passable already.

How do you walk, how you act, how you speak, cough, laugh. How you engage a conversation with a male, female, gay etc.These are the non passing aspects that most strangers pick up on, these aspects can be changed by hard work.

Passing is NOT being pretty, its to look female and act female. Are you talking about looking like a hot female? Thats not passing.

Which are all fine and yet people can still tell. It's because of my body and don't say hrt helps because it doesn't. Been on it for almost 5 years and lost no muscle. Can still lift 150+ lbs with no problem and I don't even work out my upper body at all. I have to wear a women's M because of my stupid shoulders and I hate it. Why can't I be a S?

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 20, 2017, 10:42:57 AM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 20, 2017, 06:48:32 AM
Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it, and guess what? People treat me fine. People hold doors for me. Life is a mirror, put a sour face forward and you'll get sour faces back. Smile, and the world smiles with you. Best wishes.

Hugs, Devlyn

Not where I live. Where I live gender presentation must be on point because if it isn't, you're dicked.

Then you should go full male. Easier to pull off. I'm responding to the question you asked, not the side discussion about passing or not.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 11, 2017, 07:58:49 AM
Passing to me is everything. If you pass, people will be less to bother you. People will treat you better.

You're giving other people the power to make or break you.  Don't do that.

If you genuinely want to know how to live the non-passing life, it starts with you being okay with yourself as a trans person.  At some point, you realize that it's pretty cool to be trans and you start to rock it.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 20, 2017, 10:50:44 AM
Which are all fine and yet people can still tell. It's because of my body and don't say hrt helps because it doesn't. Been on it for almost 5 years and lost no muscle. Can still lift 150+ lbs with no problem and I don't even work out my upper body at all. I have to wear a women's M because of my stupid shoulders and I hate it. Why can't I be a S?

Sweetie, I'm an L/XL.  These are sizes that women come in. ::)

Quote from: kelly_aus on July 19, 2017, 09:46:36 PM
Based on my own personal experiences and the experiences of others I know personally, I'll disagree. I'm a walking advertisement of physical tells.. And my voice? Don't ask about that. And yet, I've not been run out of the ladies room or had any similar issues. I can only attribute it to owning who I am, it's not my looks that get me in the door.

EDIT: But hey, I've only been living as a woman for 7 years, so maybe I'm just confused.

I'm sorry, but if you are a walking advertisement of tells then people will be able to read you, regardless of how aware you are of those social cues. It's subconscious, it only takes a cursory glance or hearing the sound of your voice. And I find people, most people actually, will be polite to trans folk nowadays, even if many don't really believe it's a real thing but are past the point of caring. And considering the length some social justice warriors go to claim everything and every little action is transphobic (micro-agressions), even asking questions, I would say most people are actually afraid of talking to an openly trans person, because they feel they have to walk on eggshells to talk to us. Passing does not equate to confidence. Otherwise, how many genetic girls would be clocked because they're insecure? It doesn't make sense to me.

A size M is not too big at all. M is quite normal for women close to or above 5'7 (170cm) tall.  And even short women with very large breasts. I wear S most of the time but some fitting tops have to be M, because they are too tight. I don't feel bad about it at all. How tall are you, Angieisalone? I'm in Europe, though. Don't know if it's different in tha USA.

I agree that confidence is the key. Confidence will not make you 'un-clockable' or more female looking, it will however make others give you respect , and your confidence in being a woman will inspire all cis-women because too many of them lack confidence because they too feel never beautiful enough.

To this day, I will never forget my first encounter with a trans woman in 1989 (a long time ago but she impressed me, I almost wanted to be a woman after I met her). She was easily 6 ft tall, built like a powerlifter and had a voice to match. But she exuded confidence along with warmth and charm. And she commanded respect.  I've never encountered cis-women with this nature.

It took me a while to realise ( being somewhat autistic) that she was trans ( actually my sister who has always been more perceptive, had to explain to me later).

If we as trans people can exude self-confidence of this magnitude ( and it can be practiced and improved over time; just fake it until you make it) in our daily lives, then we will be recognized for who we are. I'm not saying we will suddenly pass, but we will not become victims of abuse. We will be respected because it is obvious that we will take no ->-bleeped-<- and have a right to walk on this earth just like everybody else. We will also help educate cis people that we are really just like everybody else; we will give confidence to younger trans people and pave the way for them to grow up into who they really are.

We can say a lot on this topic. But I will say that confidence is the key. Work on that. Walk tall and look the world straight in the eye.

Quote from: kelly_aus on July 19, 2017, 09:46:36 PM
EDIT: But hey, I've only been living as a woman for 7 years, so maybe I'm just confused.

Been 20 years for me... Sure does not seem that long!

- karen

Quote from: coldHeart on July 19, 2017, 06:35:16 PM
So if you are impassable like me & its all about confidence! How the f##k do I get it can I buy it from some one because that great man in the sky is a calling my name, sisters like me or Louth me  I really do need your help

Sara My Dear Sister!!!

Some heavy duty wisdom is being laid out in this thread!!! Worthy of re-reading to let it soak in my friend!!!

Kelly_aus...

QuoteI found life was much easier when I stopped worrying about whether I passed or not. I know who and what I am and have the confidence to back that up. I'm not beautiful, at least not by modern societal standards, but I'm happy. Do I get clocked? Yeah, probably, but it's been a very long time since it's happened in a way that I notice.

I now live the boringly normal life of an Aussie lesbian. Yawn. But as I read this thread, I see a recurring theme, even among those with a feminine appearance, that there is a very obvious lack of confidence with some of you - and that's what is: A) getting you clocked and B) is obvious to all who give you more than a fleeting glance.

Confidence is the keystone to passing, irrespective of looks, without confidence in who you are, there is no passing. Or you can just stop worrying about it - but that requires confidence too.

Elkie T...

QuoteYou cannot buy it honey, but you can grow your own in your little garden. When I am out, any time I was scared of doing something because of insecurity or shame, and I caught myself in being scared, I'll force myself to do it. Once done, it ain't scary anymore and your confidence grows.

I knew I cannot pass since age 16 (maybe that's why I did not seek transition then, or lack of knowledge of medical miracles making it possible). Still, how often you see cis-girls over 6' tall? Whatever, I decided that I won't even look for passability, but rather focus on me looking sexy and confident trans-lady, and not a cross dresser who is ashamed of himself and go deep length to unsuccessfully hide all male traces to the point of suffering from physical self-torture (not that I haven't tried that route first).

As soon as I stopped pretending that I am a cis-female and started presenting myself as a trans-female who knows she's cute but doesn't care if other people approve her, people (regular people on streets and everywhere) started to approve me and give me lots of praise and compliments :))

Elizabeth K...

QuoteI don't care if I am clocked or not.... actually that is not completely true, I do care sometimes. But I used to care that I was getting clocked...all...the....time. but now I care far less about it and just get on with my life. I am still just into my Second year on HRT and living fulltime only a number of months. I try to be confident(fake it till you make it) and  don't appear androgynous. I simply wear what most women of my age and statue would wear.

Anyone making a cursory glance at me would clock me, but I can either live in that miserable hell of Dysphoria or I can be me. I understand our cultures are going to be different but it is very very rare for me to note anyone openly ridiculing me. Whether or not they are doing it behind my back...well...so what, let them.

You have the right to be you and to live an authentic life. No one has the right to decide or try and take that from you.

Yet more wisdom from Kelly!!!!.... :)

QuoteBased on my own personal experiences and the experiences of others I know personally, I'll disagree. I'm a walking advertisement of physical tells.. And my voice? Don't ask about that. And yet, I've not been run out of the ladies room or had any similar issues. I can only attribute it to owning who I am, it's not my looks that get me in the door.

All of these words speak well to the roadblock you feel stands before you Sara!!! There are ways around the obstacles and there are options!!!... We transition to be ourselves after a lifetime of hiding and I want you to consider deeply the thought that maybe a happy and amazing life can be experienced without passing 100% of the time to 100% of the people....

You walked down the street to your meeting recently without a problem and were so confident and happy in the days that followed... That could be every day of your life and I so hope that you feel somewhere inside that maybe there is the slightest chance that this is true!!!!

With Love and Hope,

Ashley 😀❤️🌻

Ashley my friend
I think my problem with passing is my lack of confidence, I,m about 5.2" tall size 8 small feet big bottom long hair so I,m half way there but I think my make up skills are pretty poor as yet I haven't really done much & besides fingers crossed I might be starting HRT ( privately ) in the next few weeks so I hoping that will make a difference but confidence wise I'm shot to ->-bleeped-<-, I know I will never look like a 18 year old beauty queen but I don't want to stand out like a sore thumb. Sara

Quote from: coldHeart on July 21, 2017, 08:24:43 AM
Ashley my friend
I think my problem with passing is my lack of confidence, I,m about 5.2" tall size 8 small feet big bottom long hair so I,m half way there but I think my make up skills are pretty poor as yet I haven't really done much & besides fingers crossed I might be starting HRT ( privately ) in the next few weeks so I hoping that will make a difference but confidence wise I'm shot to ->-bleeped-<-, I know I will never look like a 18 year old beauty queen but I don't want to stand out like a sore thumb. Sara

Hello Sara!!!

HRT in a few weeks is so wonderful to here!!!... I think it will bring you some peace in your mind as well as the welcome changes to your face and body that will come with time!!!...

Makeup skills come with time as well... Doing it everyday allows you to constantly refine and improve your style and technique..  I was so very rough in the beginning and took a lesson and then just kept working on it.... I think in the beginning it took me about 2.5 hours to do and the results still looked pretty crude... I do it in less than 30 min now and can do a 10 minute job if I need to fly out the door!!!

In the beginning of going out in daily life in public, my approach was much like Elkie's... I would often find myself taking a look at how bad I looked in the rear view mirror of my car before I would head into a store or bank etc... My inner voice would be telling me to leave and not go in but I resolved to never chicken out... It always went okay!... I would go in... Do what I needed to do, and leave... Would I get looks? ... Yes! ...There were some looks but most people didn't care and nothing bad ever happened beyond looks... With this approach over and over... Confidence builds and builds...  and during the time your confidence is building your presentation will be improving as well...makeup, clothes and the changes of HRT will all start to come together a bit more!!!

The whole process can feel like such a leap off a large cliff but all will be well my sister!!! It is indeed a leap of faith .... Faith that we will find what we need ... I think that you will Sara :)

Hugs and Love!!!!

Ashley 😀❤️🌻

A great improvement in makeup skills could come with getting good foundation and other makeup supplies... I once went into Sephora (in male mode!) and told them I occasionally cross dress and need to have a good foundation. Got myself perfectly matched foundation/powder and free makeup with a lesson.

Another time I just went into local Walgreens (female mode this time) and asked young girl working in cosmetics department to help me with building a basic makeup kit. Got all young girls working in that Walgreens (evening shift, no other customers) concilium and advise on their favorite brands and full kit for real cheap with lots of positive vibe. Been going there very often :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey Elkie!...

Yes the girls at Ulta and Sephora were so helpful and really helped me along the way!!! A couple of them became good friends of mine outside the retail environment as well!!!

Hugs!!!

A😀

The whole process can feel like such a leap off a large cliff but all will be well my sister!!! It is indeed a leap of faith .... Faith that we will find what we need ... I think that you will Sara :)

Hugs and Love!!!!

Ashley 😀❤️🌻


Yes it dose feel like a big leap off a cliff trouble is I'm about to hit the bottom, I should be happy for the up coming HRT but my mood is so low I'm not sure if its just a waist of money.
Sara

Quote from: coldHeart on July 21, 2017, 04:29:35 PM
Yes it dose feel like a big leap off a cliff trouble is I'm about to hit the bottom, I should be happy for the up coming HRT but my mood is so low I'm not sure if its just a waist of money.
Sara

Hi Sara, I shouldn't be too dismissive yet.  This week I started HRT and was very pessimistic about the positive effects on mental health that everyone seems to report when starting HRT.  Today (day 3), things seem to have kicked in and I haven't been as happy for years.  I'm sure there are plenty of ups and downs to come but for now I'd say it was money very well spent

C x

Mental health effects experienced in the first few weeks of HRT are almost certainly placebo effect.  That new pain in your nipples on day 10 is real.  The new worldview may also be real, but it isn't from HRT, at least not yet. 

If the effects on me mentally are real or just a placebo when first starting hrt I real don't care I just what to feel better, hopefully my facial features will soften & Some breast growth would be good.
I'm trying to get it in to my thick head all of this will take time but as some of you will know when your right pon the edge of living or not you what it to happen over night, I need to learn to be patient & the have HOPE!.
Yes I have changed my avatar back to the original one, was depressed about the way I looked but hell you've all seen me now & I suppose if you squint I,m not that bad.....
Sara.

Benefits from the placebo effect are not bad.  You feel what you feel and if you feel good, that's awesome.  In general, it feels really good to be doing something new and promising to take care of oneself.  It is more pleasant to be on a clear path than lost in the woods.  The neurohormonal effects will come, but if for whatever reason, you already feel better, celebrate that!

Sara!

I believe you will find that the cost of HRT is worth every penny and then some!!! :)

All will be well my friend... I have great faith in you!!!.... I'm glad you changed your avatar back, the old one was a bit dark .. Okay, very dark!!!...and in no way reflected the hope of things to come!!!!

Onward we go brave sister!!!

Ashley 😀❤️🌻

Quote from: coldHeart on July 21, 2017, 08:24:43 AM

but I think my make up skills are pretty poor  .....

I am not an expert in this by any stretch. The problem I found, is that I tried to do to much and none of what I did  was very good. So I rstopped tring to do so much and came back to a few basics then Have started to add to ithem very slowly. When I think I have got something right and it is working for me I add now ready to add something new.

I started with just getting my foundation and highlighting (basic), eyeliner top and bottom and lipstick. Once I was happy I could do these properly I then added mascara, eyelash curler...the next I will be working on are my eyebrows. They are shaped but need to be filled out a bit and worked on. This is my next area and because I wear glasses you can't see much of my lids anyway so will be adding eyeshadow after that. I have no set time frame. But I am down to about 30 mintues to go to the mascara stage and I am sure at a push it can be faster. But rushing is what always causes me problems

Don't know if any of that is any help but good luck

There are some posts on this thread saying one should not worry about passing, that how you feel about yourself the only thing that really matters...

Well yes and no... Worrying about passing certainly CAN drive one crazy, and I have seem more than a few over the years who worry needlessly... But I have also some seen that see themselves differently than the most of the world does.

IMO it's important to have a REALISTIC idea where one stands in that department regardless of how one feels about oneself, if for no other reason than safety.

But one thing I've seen over the years is that the better one 'passes' teh better one one is accepted as woman even by those who 'know'.

And that affects both one's social and professional life in a lot of ways, even if often subtly.

And I am not even talking about beauty here... GGs live are more strongly affected by how they look then men's lives are, and passing IMO has an order of magnitude effect larger than beauty (or lack of it)

Sure personality, confidence and ability all affect things too but IMO they can never 100% make up for not passing in terms of the textures and opportunities and experiences in one's life.

I understand why some have to not believe that for their emotional survival, I wish I could be like that as I don't pass 100% even after 20 years, but I believe in dealing with what is...

That said I don't worry about getting read most of the time (it only happens occasionally) and just try to live my life, but I know I can't depend on no getting read, and do note the difference in interactions with people who read me or know, and those that don't.

Not all of us can pass close to 100% of time, and that is just a reality we have to deal with REALISTICALLY to make teh best life for ourselves we can.

It is very obvious that very few can objectively judge themselves... To know where you are you need to look to the reactions of others, and sometimes teh difference can be subtle, but IMO it is  important for TSes to develop the skills one needs to know where one really is.

- karen

Quote from: Aurorasky on July 20, 2017, 01:52:15 PM
I'm sorry, but if you are a walking advertisement of tells then people will be able to read you, regardless of how aware you are of those social cues. It's subconscious, it only takes a cursory glance or hearing the sound of your voice. And I find people, most people actually, will be polite to trans folk nowadays, even if many don't really believe it's a real thing but are past the point of caring. And considering the length some social justice warriors go to claim everything and every little action is transphobic (micro-agressions), even asking questions, I would say most people are actually afraid of talking to an openly trans person, because they feel they have to walk on eggshells to talk to us. Passing does not equate to confidence. Otherwise, how many genetic girls would be clocked because they're insecure? It doesn't make sense to me.


A size M is not too big at all. M is quite normal for women close to or above 5'7 (170cm) tall.  And even short women with very large breasts. I wear S most of the time but some fitting tops have to be M, because they are too tight. I don't feel bad about it at all. How tall are you, Angieisalone? I'm in Europe, though. Don't know if it's different in tha USA.

I'm 5'9" which is very tall. All the cis women I know who are my height or taller than me wear XS or S. I feel like a monster in an M

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 23, 2017, 11:53:31 AM
I'm 5'9" which is very tall. All the cis women I know who are my height or taller than me wear XS or S. I feel like a monster in an M

Again, women come in all shapes and sizes.  It's not unusual at all that you compare yourself to cis-women.  We all do that, and we all feel like we don't measure up in one way or another.  You are not a cis-woman.  You are never going to be a cis-woman.  The pathway forward into happiness involves being okay with yourself as a transwoman.

And, sure, it would be nice to never get "clocked', but if you used the word "recognized" instead, would it be quite so bad?

Renae (6'3" by the way)

Quote from: rmaddy on July 23, 2017, 01:40:21 PM
Again, women come in all shapes and sizes.  It's not unusual at all that you compare yourself to cis-women.  We all do that, and we all feel like we don't measure up in one way or another.  You are not a cis-woman.  You are never going to be a cis-woman.  The pathway forward into happiness involves being okay with yourself as a transwoman.

You and I beat the same drum Renae!!!.... Self acceptance is at the very core of making transition "work"

We will always see our imperfections but accepting what we see gives us the keys to the kingdom!!!


Onward we go brave sisters!!!

Ashley :)

Quote from: rmaddy on July 23, 2017, 01:40:21 PM
Again, women come in all shapes and sizes.  It's not unusual at all that you compare yourself to cis-women.  We all do that, and we all feel like we don't measure up in one way or another.  You are not a cis-woman.  You are never going to be a cis-woman.  The pathway forward into happiness involves being okay with yourself as a transwoman.

And, sure, it would be nice to never get "clocked', but if you used the word "recognized" instead, would it be quite so bad?

Renae (6'3" by the way)

While that is true that women get come in all shapes and sizes, if a woman has an inverted triangle or rectangle body type, that is just their genetics giving them the middle finger.
Because of this, i detransitioned socially due to genetics not wanting to be female. Sure I can take hrt and will continue to do so but I will never pass because of my body. Rather present as male than present as fenake with a extremely masculine body that makes NFL players blush.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 24, 2017, 06:01:04 AM
While that is true that women get come in all shapes and sizes, if a woman has an inverted triangle or rectangle body type, that is just their genetics giving them the middle finger.

Yes, and in spite of all those variations, they are still women!

Being a woman is not in the shape of a few ounces of soft tissue, or in the ratio of some bone lengths.

Being a woman, one's gender identification, is something that lives between the ears.  It is a variation in the brain, the connectome, ultimately, in the mind, a concept, and an attitude that puts one on the feminine side of the gender identity continuum.

I am a woman.  I have an unusual history.

I am a lesbian.  Who I love, and how, is important to me.

I am transgender.  That is how I got to this place in my life.

I accept myself.  Heck, I love myself, and I want to make myself better.  That's why I seek medical care.

Quote from: Michelle_P on July 24, 2017, 08:40:12 AM
Yes, and in spite of all those variations, they are still women!

Being a woman is not in the shape of a few ounces of soft tissue, or in the ratio of some bone lengths.

Being a woman, one's gender identification, is something that lives between the ears.  It is a variation in the brain, the connectome, ultimately, in the mind, a concept, and an attitude that puts one on the feminine side of the gender identity continuum.

I am a woman.  I have an unusual history.

I am a lesbian.  Who I love, and how, is important to me.

I am transgender.  That is how I got to this place in my life.

I accept myself.  Heck, I love myself, and I want to make myself better.  That's why I seek medical care.

<removed>
<It is hard to be recognized as a cis woman you> need almost the whole package. Goes by your face, body, mannerisms, etc.
Why do you think some cis women get mistaken for men? Because something nature screwed up hard or they made themselves like that.

Moderator edit: A line was removed as it suggested they know the reasoning behind another member's motivation. Edit made to fit within the parameters of ToS  5& 10.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 24, 2017, 09:00:09 AM

Just because someone identifies as female doesn't mean their female. You need almost the whole package.

I totally disagree.  Good luck with that.

Quote from: rmaddy on July 24, 2017, 09:09:48 AM
I totally disagree.  Good luck with that.

And I disagree with you.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 24, 2017, 06:01:04 AM
Because of this, i detransitioned socially due to genetics not wanting to be female.

I can't say for sure how things will work out for you, but I think the probability is high that eventually you will transition again and bitterly resent teh years you wasted...

I have a body that is MUCH more problematic than yours... and that is why I did not transition until I was 42 (which was 20 years ago)... I thought it was a crazy impossible thing for me, and I was dealing with gender dysphoria in grammar school...

I made myself bury it and try to get on with life... but eventually I got to the point that I could not function without dealing with it... All that lost time made things a lot harder and my life  a lot more complicated...

All that said, from what I can see, IMO you SHOULD be be able to pas as gg with your body and I think YOU just have to believe that is possible... You need to judge where you are by how people react and interact with you instead of judging yourself against unrealistic ideals... If You can't do it now. I suspect it's not because of of the physical... and the rough edges can be taken of by living full time a year or two...

I know you can take this in right now... That's OK ... Just don't forget these words and keep checking how you feel living as male...

You say you prefer that with your body... If that really is OK with you then IMO  you SHOULD STAY THAT WAY NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK!

IMO only those that can't deal with living in their birth sex should transition. Life is a lot simpler that way no matter how one looks.


My 2 cents.
- karen

I went from a 62 year old balding dude to 63 year old woman, a genuine weird old lady. I like to think I mostly pass, but I get called on gender by strangers often enough to know better after over a year of HRT.  Most of the improvement, honestly, is in makeup skills, wardrobe, and deportment (movement and behaviors).
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170724/f0ef43cd0dfc70925d6cf03b56cabf2c.jpg)
None the less, I refuse to go back. I know my identity, who I am, and have accepted myself.

After all those decades of self-denial and trying to pass as male, surrendering to myself, finding self-acceptance and abandoning the tremendous effort to maintain self-loathing and denial, I have found inner peace and happiness.

This is a wonderful thing, and I heartily reject the opinions of others who seek to deny me or drag me down. No one has the right to deny my existence.

Oh, others may seek to socially reject me, or even foolishly legislate me away. They cannot alter my inner convictions. They cannot deny me myself.

That ultimately is what self-acceptance can bring us.

I seek to improve my appearance, and my social acceptance, as a necessity for my own safety while I live in a transphobic culture. That is why I seek FFS, and part of why I seek GCS. (I'd also like my clothes to fit better, and remove my physical gender incongruity.)

Living in a transphobic culture does not mean I need to internalize its transphobia. I seek to alter that through my activism and by living as my authentic self, in full public view in spite of the risks. I'm not foolish about the risks, of course, but I do not hide myself away either.

How do I live a non-passing life?  By living.  It's as simple as that, and as challenging as that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 24, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
And I disagree with you.

Hi Angie,

Yeah, that is a tough call, and it really goes to the heart of whether you consider being female a social role or an immutable and innate signature of gender, or something else.  I consider myself a transsexual female. Not AFAB. I am not equivalent to a cis-gender woman. That is not my life.  That is not how I got here.  That is not who I am.

I do agree that one is less likely to get treated like a female if you don't fit a gender-binary stereotype.  That's not a judgement, that's just the way it is.  Transgenders are a fraction of a percent of the population. We are statistical outliers, by definition. In a perfect world, it would not matter, but no one owes us acceptance. We take this path because we answer to ourselves, and no one else.

Personally, I think you are way too hard on yourself, but all I know of you is your avatar and the pictures you have posted on imgur. I think you look pretty damn good.  We have been around the barn on this many times. You have said your voice is ruined.  Cindy, one of our mods, doesn't even have a larynx anymore. How feminine do you think she must sound now?  Do you think she accepts herself less as a woman because she doesn't have vocal chords? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to believe that social acceptance is the same thing as internal identity. You want validation above all else. What people here have been trying to tell you for dozens and dozens of posts is that no one can give you validation if you don't accept it.

With kindness,

Terri

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 24, 2017, 06:01:04 AM
While that is true that women get come in all shapes and sizes, if a woman has an inverted triangle or rectangle body type, that is just their genetics giving them the middle finger.
Because of this, i detransitioned socially due to genetics not wanting to be female. Sure I can take hrt and will continue to do so but I will never pass because of my body. Rather present as male than present as fenake with a extremely masculine body that makes NFL players blush.

So... I recall having seen your 'before' pictures and thinking, 'Man, what a tiny little dude'. Not to sound like a ****, but you are and were worlds away from making any NFL players blush, let alone any dudes in general.
Hell, I was bigger than you pre-T. You looked terribly out of place as a male but perfectly within the realm of normal/pleasant for a female. You look really good.

But a ton of people have said things similar to what I just said and you seem to want to consistently disregard any positive commentary so I'm not sure why I bothered.
It may have been the NFL player comment. You know those guys are like 6'2" -  6'6"+ and 300+ pounds, right? It would take three of you taped together to even remotely come close.

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on July 24, 2017, 06:49:42 PM
Hi Angie,

Yeah, that is a tough call, and it really goes to the heart of whether you consider being female a social role or an immutable and innate signature of gender, or something else.  I consider myself a transsexual female. Not AFAB. I am not equivalent to a cis-gender woman. That is not my life.  That is not how I got here.  That is not who I am.

I do agree that one is less likely to get treated like a female if you don't fit a gender-binary stereotype.  That's not a judgement, that's just the way it is.  Transgenders are a fraction of a percent of the population. We are statistical outliers, by definition. In a perfect world, it would not matter, but no one owes us acceptance. We take this path because we answer to ourselves, and no one else.

Personally, I think you are way too hard on yourself, but all I know of you is your avatar and the pictures you have posted on imgur. I think you look pretty damn good.  We have been around the barn on this many times. You have said your voice is ruined.  Cindy, one of our mods, doesn't even have a larynx anymore. How feminine do you think she must sound now?  Do you think she accepts herself less as a woman because she doesn't have vocal chords? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to believe that social acceptance is the same thing as internal identity. You want validation above all else. What people here have been trying to tell you for dozens and dozens of posts is that no one can give you validation if you don't accept it.

With kindness,

Terri

I'm around this barn so many times because I feel I don't look female. I feel like andro at best.
My voice is the most important thing. I'm trying to become a teacher and don't want to freak kids out with my voice.

Quote from: Stone Magnum on July 26, 2017, 03:13:40 AM
So... I recall having seen your 'before' pictures and thinking, 'Man, what a tiny little dude'. Not to sound like a ****, but you are and were worlds away from making any NFL players blush, let alone any dudes in general.
Hell, I was bigger than you pre-T. You looked terribly out of place as a male but perfectly within the realm of normal/pleasant for a female. You look really good.

But a ton of people have said things similar to what I just said and you seem to want to consistently disregard any positive commentary so I'm not sure why I bothered.
It may have been the NFL player comment. You know those guys are like 6'2" -  6'6"+ and 300+ pounds, right? It would take three of you taped together to even remotely come close.

But I wasn't referring to weight or height. I'm talking about bone mass/width. For my frame at 5'9, 145lbs, my body is pretty broad. My shoulders are that of NFL Quarterback and that is a problem. I can only die into a women's M because of that and sure you can say a women's M is normal but there are only a few types of women that wear such a size. Those with big bones, athletic, big breasted or heaven set. I look like some athletic person and I don't even work out my torso, just my lower half. It gets annoying when I'm
Asked by people if I used to be a swimmer.

I know I can't shrink my shoulders and it hurts. I feel like a monster around the small
Cis women who can wear such great clothing that I can't because my shoulders won't let me.

I've been reading your posts. From just your avatar picture you look passable. Maybe post some other pictures.  Are you actually getting outed or do you just think you are? Strange looks don't count because there are any number of reasons people give looks. Has anyone ever called you Sir or he? Has anyone called you a man or a ->-bleeped-<- before?
Julia

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 31, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
I know I can't shrink my shoulders and it hurts. I feel like a monster around the small
Cis women who can wear such great clothing that I can't because my shoulders won't let me.

There are things you can do to reduce the appearance of broad shoulders.  The most important rule is not to show your bare shoulders.  Wearing a top with bare shoulders draws the eyes toward your shoulders, which makes your shoulders appear more broad.  Stay away from tank tops, cami's, cold-shoulder tops, sleeveless dresses, or any other style that shows your bare shoulders, unless you're wearing a blazer or cardigan over it.

Instead, wear styles that draw attention away from your shoulders.  You can do this by wearing scoop necks and V-necks, although the latter is better.  Boat neck tops will again draw attention to your shoulders so stay away from those.  And when buying these V-neck tops, always make sure they have a sleeve that covers your shoulders.

The top that you're wearing in your profile photo is exactly the type of clothing you do NOT want to wear when you're trying to draw attention away from your shoulders.  The eyes have nowhere to go except to look at your shoulders and the tattoo there.  :)  Instead wear a V-neck with a nice necklace to draw attention toward your neckline instead.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 31, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
But I wasn't referring to weight or height. I'm talking about bone mass/width. For my frame at 5'9, 145lbs, my body is pretty broad. My shoulders are that of NFL Quarterback and that is a problem. I can only die into a women's M because of that and sure you can say a women's M is normal but there are only a few types of women that wear such a size. Those with big bones, athletic, big breasted or heaven set. I look like some athletic person and I don't even work out my torso, just my lower half. It gets annoying when I'm
Asked by people if I used to be a swimmer.

I know I can't shrink my shoulders and it hurts. I feel like a monster around the small
Cis women who can wear such great clothing that I can't because my shoulders won't let me.

Um... I'm 5'8", 136 lbs, and wear a women's M or L on top.

Pants are a size 4, so the hips are very definitely smaller than the shoulders.  Now, since we are worried about projecting that pesky triangular body shape, and narrowing the shoulders isn't practical, what shall we do?  What shall we do?

Widen the hips!  Or more accurately, alter the visual perception of hip width.  A non-tapered skirt, something like a lawn skirt (retro 50's look for a bonus) can help.  (Ashley, now you know WHY I'm rocking the skirt look!).  Alter the top style!  Cover the shoulders, and show more skin around the neck.  Cap sleeves, or better.  Try a v neck or scoop neck, and avoid tank tops and sleeveless.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170731/ede646b51555ec20fed95c5a196de091.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170731/79203a5730e71c9960c8cb309fe939b3.jpg)
See what that skirt does to hip width visually?

I dunno about big bones or athletics.  I think more along the lines of heaven set, or more accurately 'heaven sent'.  It is what it is, and I'll work it.

And yes, I know I still don't meet the high standards of passing some here hold with.  I haven't had anything beyond HRT yet, and FFS is at least 12-18 months out, if it happens at all.  (This depends on the mood of the government here, alas.  I'll be on a government funded and regulated medical program because of my age, and they get to decide what to cover, Standards of Care be damned.)

Women use careful wardrobe selection all the time to enhance and conceal features so they present their best.  This is just another of the skills we learn as part of socialization, either growing up or in our transition.

Oh, I still wear the skinny jeans out, because I still like how they look and feel, want to mix things up a bit, and really don't give a damn about the pass/fail criteria some folks promote.  I'm sort of cranky that way.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 31, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
For my frame at 5'9, 145lbs, my body is pretty broad. My shoulders are that of NFL Quarterback and that is a problem. I can only die into a women's M because of that and sure you can say a women's M is normal but there are only a few types of women that wear such a size. Those with big bones, athletic, big breasted or heaven set. I look like some athletic person and I don't even work out my torso, just my lower half. It gets annoying when I'm
Asked by people if I used to be a swimmer.

I know I can't shrink my shoulders and it hurts. I feel like a monster around the small
Cis women who can wear such great clothing that I can't because my shoulders won't let me.

My cisgender fiancée is 5'4", 130lbs and wears a women's size medium more often than not because that size fits her shoulders and frame more comfortably. She looks perfectly proportional... just like you do in all the images I've seen.
Take a look around: A ton of women would die to fit into a M. Hell, pre-T, even when I was at my boniest/skinniest (105), I couldn't get into anything smaller than a L in female sizes because of my frame.

Women's sizes are a little ridiculous, anyway, and very brand/style/store dependent.
I wish I had a quarter for every time I heard her say something like "hahahah, I guess I'm an XL at this store. Oh well, it's cute". Someone that's 5'4" and 130lbs isn't an XL in any sense of the word... unless it comes to some brands of women's clothing.

Anyway, yeah... I'm still not buying the shoulder thing. Again, I have seen all your before/after pics that were posted a while ago and your shoulders just... no. Below average for a male, average for a female. I'm sorry that you're struggling with these feelings and I know external reassurance won't necessarily help, but I truly see a normal girl when I look at you.

If you're really struggling with the appearance of your shoulders, Michelle's suggestions are spot-on. Play with your wardrobe a bit and try not to get too tangled up in sizes.

Quote from: Julia1996 on July 31, 2017, 05:16:22 PM
I've been reading your posts. From just your avatar picture you look passable. Maybe post some other pictures.  Are you actually getting outed or do you just think you are? Strange looks don't count because there are any number of reasons people give looks. Has anyone ever called you Sir or he? Has anyone called you a man or a ->-bleeped-<- before?
Julia

Look up kyoryuviolet on ->-bleeped-<- for pics.
I do get misgendered sometimes.

Quote from: Michelle_P on July 31, 2017, 05:31:04 PM
Um... I'm 5'8", 136 lbs, and wear a women's M or L on top.

Pants are a size 4, so the hips are very definitely smaller than the shoulders.  Now, since we are worried about projecting that pesky triangular body shape, and narrowing the shoulders isn't practical, what shall we do?  What shall we do?

Widen the hips!  Or more accurately, alter the visual perception of hip width.  A non-tapered skirt, something like a lawn skirt (retro 50's look for a bonus) can help.  (Ashley, now you know WHY I'm rocking the skirt look!).  Alter the top style!  Cover the shoulders, and show more skin around the neck.  Cap sleeves, or better.  Try a v neck or scoop neck, and avoid tank tops and sleeveless.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170731/ede646b51555ec20fed95c5a196de091.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170731/79203a5730e71c9960c8cb309fe939b3.jpg)
See what that skirt does to hip width visually?

I dunno about big bones or athletics.  I think more along the lines of heaven set, or more accurately 'heaven sent'.  It is what it is, and I'll work it.

And yes, I know I still don't meet the high standards of passing some here hold with.  I haven't had anything beyond HRT yet, and FFS is at least 12-18 months out, if it happens at all.  (This depends on the mood of the government here, alas.  I'll be on a government funded and regulated medical program because of my age, and they get to decide what to cover, Standards of Care be damned.)

Women use careful wardrobe selection all the time to enhance and conceal features so they present their best.  This is just another of the skills we learn as part of socialization, either growing up or in our transition.

Oh, I still wear the skinny jeans out, because I still like how they look and feel, want to mix things up a bit, and really don't give a damn about the pass/fail criteria some folks promote.  I'm sort of cranky that way.

I already dress for my body. Very few items I wear that ever expose my shoulders

Quote from: Stone Magnum on August 01, 2017, 12:49:27 AM
My cisgender fiancée is 5'4", 130lbs and wears a women's size medium more often than not because that size fits her shoulders and frame more comfortably. She looks perfectly proportional... just like you do in all the images I've seen.
Take a look around: A ton of women would die to fit into a M. Hell, pre-T, even when I was at my boniest/skinniest (105), I couldn't get into anything smaller than a L in female sizes because of my frame.

Women's sizes are a little ridiculous, anyway, and very brand/style/store dependent.
I wish I had a quarter for every time I heard her say something like "hahahah, I guess I'm an XL at this store. Oh well, it's cute". Someone that's 5'4" and 130lbs isn't an XL in any sense of the word... unless it comes to some brands of women's clothing.

Anyway, yeah... I'm still not buying

the shoulder thing. Again, I have seen all your before/after pics that were posted a while ago and your shoulders just... no. Below average for a male, average for a female. I'm sorry that you're struggling with these feelings and I know external reassurance won't necessarily help, but I truly see a normal girl when I look at you.

If you're really struggling with the appearance of your shoulders, Michelle's suggestions are spot-on. Play with your wardrobe a bit and try not to get too tangled up in sizes.

If you won't buy it, then look at this photo and you'll understand https://ibb.co/ipDYc5
If my shoulders were average for females, they would be 14", not 17"
http://www.livestrong.com/article/484806-the-average-shoulder-width-for-females/

 ???

The additional picture only serves to reinforce that you have a far less challenging body to transition than most of us.  Maybe a little less time measuring the shoulders and a little more counting one's blessings?  Just sayin'....

Quote from: rmaddy on August 02, 2017, 05:48:27 PM
???

The additional picture only serves to reinforce that you have a far less challenging body to transition than most of us.  Maybe a little less time measuring the shoulders and a little more counting one's blessings?  Just sayin'....

You asked for it. Don't say I didn't warn you. https://ibb.co/jkfoS5

Like to also add: I told ya so.
Don't doubt me cause I will prove you wrong every time.  I told you stone and rmaddy.

Quote from: Angieisalone on August 02, 2017, 07:41:32 PM
You asked for it. Don't say I didn't warn you. https://ibb.co/jkfoS5

Um...  That could be my body.

It doesn't stop me.  I learn how to best dress my frame, and present myself as well as possible.  I like to believe I pass to the casual observer out on the street.  Attitude and movement, body language and poise have far more to do with passing than the ratio of shoulder to hip width.

I mean, come on!  Size 4 pant and a medium/large top?  But those are my sizes.  I try to make it work and get on with living my life.  I love being me, my authentic self, and won't give that up for anyone's arbitrary standards.

Quote from: Michelle_P on August 03, 2017, 05:46:58 PM
Um...  That could be my body.

It doesn't stop me.  I learn how to best dress my frame, and present myself as well as possible.  I like to believe I pass to the casual observer out on the street.  Attitude and movement, body language and poise have far more to do with passing than the ratio of shoulder to hip width.

I mean, come on!  Size 4 pant and a medium/large top?  But those are my sizes.  I try to make it work and get on with living my life.  I love being me, my authentic self, and won't give that up for anyone's arbitrary standards.

I was just proving a point on how bad my body truly is.
I wear a women's M and a size 6 pant

Envy. I wear a size 16 or XL top and my bottom is about 12 or 14 restricted by the waist size. No rear and moderate hips. I have a BMI of about 21 which means everything is in tall sizes and non tall sizes leave a bare midriff. No buying something off the rack as I need a tall shop or mail order. To not plan my clothing purchases a couple of weeks in advance and not be limited by the limited selection of tall sizes.

On the plus side, nobody ever comments that I am an Amazon, possibly because of my size.

I will say we are our own worst critics. you would be surprised that many times we pass. ;D

Angie darling, it seems to me that in your mind somewhere you don't want to pass. No matter what anybody says, you shut them down, they are wrong. I've read this whole thread and don't need to see pictures to realize that in your mind you don't pass and never will. No matter what. Until you dig deep into your own head and find, and deal with the reason you don't want to pass, you will never be able to. Ladies, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm reading. There's been some fantastic advise in this thread. It's kept me from the pit of 'I'm hopeless" tonight. Angie accepts none of it, so???

Quote from: Angieisalone on August 02, 2017, 07:41:32 PM
You asked for it. Don't say I didn't warn you. https://ibb.co/jkfoS5

.... Yep. Looks like a girl to me. A cisgender girl, no less. What am I being warned about?
I hate to break this to you, but you have tiny little shoulders. If you were a male, you'd face endless criticism.

Are you scared of your femininity, perhaps?
I know it can be difficult to truly see the new image in the mirror but you seem to be struggling a good deal.

Quote from: Dani2118 on August 03, 2017, 10:32:40 PM
Angie darling, it seems to me that in your mind somewhere you don't want to pass. No matter what anybody says, you shut them down, they are wrong. I've read this whole thread and don't need to see pictures to realize that in your mind you don't pass and never will. No matter what. Until you dig deep into your own head and find, and deal with the reason you don't want to pass, you will never be able to. Ladies, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm reading. There's been some fantastic advise in this thread. It's kept me from the pit of 'I'm hopeless" tonight. Angie accepts none of it, so???

I agree.  Sad, so sad but true.  Angie is on the brink of living her true self and denies herself that opportunity.  After so many posts she still does not let even one word into her created reality.  It is obviously not a different opinion or honest opinion she seeks.  She seeks confirmation of her opinions and we waste our time telling her otherwise.  And it is all her fear of what others MIGHT THINK.  Sad, so sad.
You can lead a horse to water but can't make her drink.

Quote from: JulieOnHerWay on August 04, 2017, 12:30:56 AM
I agree.  Sad, so sad but true.  Angie is on the brink of living her true self and denies herself that opportunity.  After so many posts she still does not let even one word into her created reality.  It is obviously not a different opinion or honest opinion she seeks.  She seeks confirmation of her opinions and we waste our time telling her otherwise.  And it is all her fear of what others MIGHT THINK.  Sad, so sad.
You can lead a horse to water but can't make her drink.

I agree. I've read her posts and I looked at her pictures. She's very passable and her body looks feminine. But if she refuses to believe that no one can help her. Since this is causing her so much anguish she may want to just detransition and be done with all the stress it's causing her.
Julia

Correct me if im wrong, but the O/P asked for tips on living a non-passing life. She's gotten scarce few because most of you just want to argue about whether she passes or not....without seeing her in person. I took her word for it and offered the best advice I could.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 04, 2017, 03:27:23 PM
Correct me if im wrong, but the O/P asked for tips on living a non-passing life. She's gotten scarce few because most of you just want to argue about whether she passes or not....without seeing her in person. I took her word for it and offered the best advice I could.

Hugs, Devlyn

I've been pointing out that I'm in the same body shape as angieisalone, and I get clocked often enough to know I don't pass beyond casual 'passing on the street', and fail at close inspection there.  Heck, I was full time after a whopping 4 months of HRT and no surgeries, yet I am living my authentic life, socializing as a woman, out in public for hours every day.

What I am seeing is a lack of self-acceptance, and confidence that even without passing, she can live as herself.  Passing under all conditions is not necessary to being your authentic self.  Most folks just don't look at others that closely unless something invites their attention.  Oddly, a lack of self-confidence, a presence that shouts "I don't belong here!" Is one of those things that attracts attention.

I think that angieisalone needs to get past her need to pass 100%, and get to the point where she can accept herself, and just live as her authentic self.  That brings self-acceptance, self-confidence, and oddly enough, will improve her passing.

I know many ciswomen who "don't pass" according to the criteria I see bantered about here, yet they are not hiding in male drab or refusing to socialize.  They don't seem to know that they don't pass, and just go about living their lives as their authentic selves.  I'm pretty sure if someone misgendered them or called them out as trans, they would laugh in their faces (or in one case, drop them with a roundhouse, but Mary is a bit special that way).

It is quite possible to love an authentic life without meeting arbitrary 'passing' criteria. 

Maybe I misread her post, but she gave me the impression that not passing was dangerous where she is. She has been asserting all along that she doesn't pass. I don't consider cajoling her into trying to be the best idea under the circumstances.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on August 04, 2017, 06:13:55 PM
Maybe I misread her post, but she gave me the impression that not passing was dangerous where she is. She has been asserting all along that she doesn't pass. I don't consider cajoling her into trying to be the best idea under the circumstances.

Hugs, Devlyn

I don't see that in any of the first few pages of the thread.  Just workplace stuff where someone who very likely knows she transitioned is misgendering with dumb questions, and similar nonsense.  Stuff I get every day and either blow off or lecture them on.

On safety, I've been assaulted, and posted on that in this thread. (I had worse growing up.)  I refuse to let some creep or crazy dictate how I will live my life.  Oh, I do carry defensive weapons, and am a very good marksman if it comes to that.  At 5'8" 136 lbs, I ain't gonna engage in hand-to-hand on the street,  just evade/defend/evade.

Now excuse me, this non-passing transgender person has to go out and meet some folks for coffee and discuss another speaking engagement.  I'm walking there.  In public.  On the street where I was last attacked. So Not Hiding!

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 20, 2017, 10:42:57 AM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 20, 2017, 06:48:32 AM
Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it, and guess what? People treat me fine. People hold doors for me. Life is a mirror, put a sour face forward and you'll get sour faces back. Smile, and the world smiles with you. Best wishes.

Hugs, Devlyn

Not where I live. Where I live gender presentation must be on point because if it isn't, you're dicked.

"Learning to live a non-passing life."

I've never relay focused on passing, Its not been that important to me, don't get me wrong, It is still important, in so much as it hurts when I'm sir'd.

I relay wish I could help you. But I cant. where I live in the UK, I have things easy, I haven't had much agro. I do get sir'd and I'm sure that one shop keeper does it on purpose. Considering they don't sir the sir in from of me.

Needless to say, I've had people approach me, under the assumption, I'm a man wearing girls clothes to pick up guys, sighs. And I constantly get invited to pride.

Im pressured to enter the womans toilet, even the i literally dont want to. Pre op that's a no no for me. I dont want a pee pee, in me pee space, I aint taking one into someone ellses.

Children ask me, if im a girl or a boy, and some have called me, vicky with the big dicky. And people ask me, if my boobs are real, if i have had the operation yet, and twice now people have pulled my hair believing it to be a wig.

I dont care to pass, susans stopped any attemp of me trying before I even made a single post. Ive seen the trauma Woman cause themself trying to pass. Its not a good place to be mentaly, And i was clear I wasnt going their.

How do I COPE?

The other day, were I work, we have just started a womans bike riding club, fear of rejection prevented me from even thinking about going on it. But two people came up to me, people that know Im trans, and what that means. They came up and asked, "Are you comming" I said isnt it a womans things, and they said "you a woman arn't you?" My internal reaction, "oh yeah thats right"

Im so focussed on being myself, gender gets the back seat.

Moments like this, are what make all the aforementioned negatives worth while.

I hope you can find a balance like this in a none passing life aswell

If the OP actually lives in a place where being non-passing is a constant and immediate danger, then learning to lead a non-passing life starts with learning where they can relocate to for their own safety. We have had a few members from places like the UAE and Dubai in that situation.

Much of the United States is safer, particularly urban areas, often with LGBTQ districts, like the Twin Cities and San Francisco.

Some self-defense preparedness, such as a defense class for women over a couple weekends can be wise as well as a confidence builder.

Learning to live a non-passing life requires some internal changes in self-acceptance and self-confidence, as well as the wisdom to place oneself in a safer environment.

Putting ones energy into finding ways to deny oneself is unlikely to make these internal or external changes, and suggests that the first step is to determine why one focuses on seeking failure rather than success. This is where working with someone else who can be a dispassionate sounding board and can ask clarifying questions can help.

That's why I have been seeing, and continue to see a therapist. I am brutally honest with her and myself, and we have spent over a year digging away all the debris that bound me to seeking failure, and clarified my thinking about what I need to do.

I find that I can harness and redirect the enormous energies I once focused on hiding myself and trying to deny my existence. Now these energies are powerful tools I can harness to push back and alter the world around me.

Look at Devlyn and ButterflyVickster, at Lisa, and many others here. They have learned or are in the process of learning this at some level, and are moving forward into the world.

We have the strength to come out. We have the intelligence to seek assistance.  We have the tools we need to go forth and live our authentic lives. You need to rediscover yours.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Dena on August 03, 2017, 08:56:02 PM
Envy. I wear a size 16 or XL top and my bottom is about 12 or 14 restricted by the waist size. No rear and moderate hips. I have a BMI of about 21 which means everything is in tall sizes and non tall sizes leave a bare midriff. No buying something off the rack as I need a tall shop or mail order. To not plan my clothing purchases a couple of weeks in advance and not be limited by the limited selection of tall sizes.

On the plus side, nobody ever comments that I am an Amazon, possibly because of my size.

You must very tall because those sizes with that bmi doesn't add up unless you're very tall and thin.
I'm shorter than you in smaller sizes and yet have a bigger bmi.

Quote from: Dani2118 on August 03, 2017, 10:32:40 PM
Angie darling, it seems to me that in your mind somewhere you don't want to pass. No matter what anybody says, you shut them down, they are wrong. I've read this whole thread and don't need to see pictures to realize that in your mind you don't pass and never will. No matter what. Until you dig deep into your own head and find, and deal with the reason you don't want to pass, you will never be able to. Ladies, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm reading. There's been some fantastic advise in this thread. It's kept me from the pit of 'I'm hopeless" tonight. Angie accepts none of it, so???

Not the case. I have evidence that proves why I don't pass.

Quote from: Stone Magnum on August 03, 2017, 11:54:44 PM
.... Yep. Looks like a girl to me. A cisgender girl, no less. What am I being warned about?
I hate to break this to you, but you have tiny little shoulders. If you were a male, you'd face endless criticism.

Are you scared of your femininity, perhaps?
I know it can be difficult to truly see the new image in the mirror but you seem to be struggling a good deal.

You clearly didn't read the article I post a few posts. Ack. The average female has 14" shoulders while male is 15". I'm 17", which is far from average.

Quote from: Julia1996 on August 04, 2017, 03:17:18 PM
I agree. I've read her posts and I looked at her pictures. She's very passable and her body looks feminine. But if she refuses to believe that no one can help her. Since this is causing her so much anguish she may want to just detransition and be done with all the stress it's causing her.
Julia

Feminine bodies are meant to be curvy. Not columns/inverted triangles. Now you can say that women also have those body types but society and biology refers to them as masculine.

"Feminine bodies are meant to be curvy. Not columns/inverted triangles. Now you can say that women also have those body types but society and biology refers to them as masculine."

So if your a woman and somebody says, look what manly shoulders you have, you take that as not passing?
So that's the same as saying a cis woman with manly shoulders isn't a woman?

And with pregnancy, does not being able to conceive, stop a woman being a woman?
Does, playing football to a woman, stop them being a woman?

What if you don't like pink? That feminine, does it stop you being a woman if you like blue?

Im asking these questions, because you mentioned masculine, in description of a woman, or be it one characteristic.
Masculine is not man, nor is feminine female. Characteristics of a woman may be masculine, but this does not stop them from being a woman.

For every characteristic, their is a number of variations equivalent to the total number of individuals that have ever lived. Your hair is your hair, it not a mans, or a womans. You have your hair, and if you are a woman, your hair is a womans not matter what it looks like.

Your shoulders may be broad, but if you are a woman, your shoulders are a womans shoulder, and for aslong as your a woman, you characteristics are the characteristics of a woman.

Masculine and feminine are stereotypes, they do not define gender.
And if you tell me your clocked I believe you. I have no reason to doubt you.
Im just trying to understand why, Your focus is on shedding masculinity, and not on expressing the individual woman that only you can be.

Passing by its definition is giving the power to determine whether or not you count as a woman into the hands of someone ells. And even if, in the instance you meet somebody that passes you, the next person might not. Because those two individuals will see two different masculine, and feminine stereotypes, when they think of man and/or woman.

Every single man on this planet will have attributes that dont conform to masculine, and this is the same for woman and femininity.

If you cut out, everything masculine about yourself, then you will be 100% feminine, this is something that nobody on this planet is or ever be. Unless they have surgeries to conform to statistics generated, But those statistics change for every single person who is ever born.

And if you do conform to femininty you will be constantly changing your face, hairstyle, how you sound, how you talk, how you walk, the lengths of your legs, your style of dress, shoes, the activities you participate in, the food you eat eat, and the portions. And this list is just the tip of the iceburg.

And on top of that you will be the only feminine that exists. Stop giving people the power to hurt you. You are a woman no matter what you look act or sound like. And if you go full guy mode, you still a woman doing what she needs to be safe. But their isn't any point in hurting yourself mentally, in trying to stay safe physically. eg, if you will end yourself in guy mode, then risking you life en fem is safer.

I say, think about yourself, what do you need? eg what can you not live without expressing. Exspress those only in the amounts you need. But please, dont try and please everybody, its impossible, and will only hurt you.

Maybe you can clarify what it is that you want.  The title suggests that you are interested in learning to accept that you don't pass.  If this is the case, I'm not sure why we are discussing your measurements and shape.  Learning to live as a non-passing TG generally involves a combination of talk therapy and HRT +/- to get to a place where you can, at the very least, be at peace with your body.  We all look for validation, but the non-passing transperson seeks it primarily from within, whereas the stealth/passer looks externally.  It's up to you, really. 

Two things come out in your posts:  1)  you are grieving not being able to pass, and 2) you are not very open to positive feedback about what, for most trans women, would be an enviable body to work with.  Regarding #1--I totally feel you.  Many of us have been there, and its really a drag to be misgendered all the time.  There are things you can do, but accepting the limitations of your body is part of that.  Regarding #2--girl, you got it easy.

I'm 6'3"  (190cm).  Much of my height is in the torso, so nothing fits.  I weigh 190 lbs on a good day.  My shoulders are 22".  My feet are size 13.  My head is large for a man, with nose and ears to match.

There are plenty of people here willing and ready to talk to you about self-acceptance and letting go of the idea of passing.  We're here for you.  If, on the other hand, you want to gripe about your measurements, you might want to reconsider.

I am not sure what exactly is going on here. Guess I am a little dumb. But if I had a face even remotely like what I see in your (OP) picture I would have no complaints about life. I already have the body in most ways, but my face is hopeless. I have made peace with it in that I live as female only at home. However, I would love to be able to just once in a while go out and be myself. Maybe once a month would be great. Just slip on my skinny jeans, a bra, tight shirt, makeup and a pair of nice heels and I am on my way. For me that would be a dream. But I can understand someone that desires full-time; maybe that is a completely different ball game. I get it. But for me, maybe in the next life...

RMaddy I want to thank you for an excellent post which I find so true on many levels. 

I will admit the back and forth with measurements and bone structure in this thread has caused me to question my own situation in unsettling ways.  I don't think that was the intention, but that is what happened.  RMaddy your post has given me assurances and clarity that I hope will also help others, and I hope will help Angie.

Quote from: Angieisalone on August 05, 2017, 08:30:32 AM
You must very tall because those sizes with that bmi doesn't add up unless you're very tall and thin.
I'm shorter than you in smaller sizes and yet have a bigger bmi.

I am 6'2" with a build like a quarter back with shoulder pads. When the shoulder pad look (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_pads_(fashion)) was it, the first thing I would do with a new blouse was to rip the shoulder pads out. The blouses would fit perfectly and looked like the pads were still in it. When I told my hair dresser this, she asked that I save my shoulder pads and give them to her.  My current weight is about 166 pounds but it tends to drift around depending on how much salt I have consumed.

There is no way I will ever fit "average female norms" so I don't worry about it. I just own it and get on with my life. When you act like you belong, nobody questions you and if they did, my response would depend on how the question was asked. If it's polite, they will get a proper answer. If it was rude, I can dish it out if I want to.

I seems like everyone is getting way to technical with this stuff. If you are a model or in movies then yes all that technical measurements stuff matters but in all honesty like every day life it doesn't matter. guys don't care as much as we think about the things us ladies care about. like sometimes after I'm done at the gym and I'm leaving I get hit on by guys. Looking a hot mess and smelly and yet they still come up to me? or how a had a cold a few months ago I went to the store in my PJs to get medicine and for some stupid reason a guy told me I was cute and asked for my Instagram and Facebook... I like the rest of you use to stress about my feet and shoulders and weight (ok I still stress about my weight sometimes) but these days I don't worry anymore because I know guys don't care that much. try to enjoy your beautiful selves. I see so much opportunity in all of you :)

Quote from: Dena on August 05, 2017, 12:29:11 PM
I am 6'2" with a build like a quarter back with shoulder pads. When the shoulder pad look (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_pads_(fashion)) was it, the first thing I would do with a new blouse was to rip the shoulder pads out. The blouses would fit perfectly and looked like the pads were still in it. When I told my hair dresser this, she asked that I save my shoulder pads and give them to her.  My current weight is about 166 pounds but it tends to drift around depending on how much salt I have consumed.

There is no way I will ever fit "average female norms" so I don't worry about it. I just own it and get on with my life. When you act like you belong, nobody questions you and if they did, my response would depend on how the question was asked. If it's polite, they will get a proper answer. If it was rude, I can dish it out if I want to.

that build is ok in many parts. when I went to the northeast I saw lots of ladies like that and ladies with mustaches and sideburns. Did my best not to stare, ladies come in all shapes and sizes  :)  oh and every single one of those ladies turns out are married or divorced so theirs someone out their for everyone

I agree with Devlyn Marie. And think this thread has really gone off the rails. If the OP says she doesn't pass take her at her word.

This endless -

I don't pass.
Yes you do.
No I don't.

Has become tiresome. If she doesn't think she passes, then she doesn't pass. There's nothing wrong with that! She's the one living a non-passing life.  IMO she would be better advised on how to deal with that.

Quote from: Janes Groove on August 05, 2017, 01:27:28 PM
I agree with Devlyn Marie. And think this thread has really gone off the rails. If the OP says she doesn't pass take her at her word.

This endless -

I don't pass.
Yes you do.
No I don't.

Has become tiresome. If she doesn't think she passes, then she doesn't pass. There's nothing wrong with that! She's the one living a non-passing life.  IMO she would be better advised on how to deal with that.

This ^^^^^^  +1000

Quote from: HoneyStrums on August 05, 2017, 09:22:49 AM
"Feminine bodies are meant to be curvy. Not columns/inverted triangles. Now you can say that women also have those body types but society and biology refers to them as masculine."

So if your a woman and somebody says, look what manly shoulders you have, you take that as not passing?
So that's the same as saying a cis woman with manly shoulders isn't a woman?

And with pregnancy, does not being able to conceive, stop a woman being a woman?
Does, playing football to a woman, stop them being a woman?

What if you don't like pink? That feminine, does it stop you being a woman if you like blue?

Im asking these questions, because you mentioned masculine, in description of a woman, or be it one characteristic.
Masculine is not man, nor is feminine female. Characteristics of a woman may be masculine, but this does not stop them from being a woman.

For every characteristic, their is a number of variations equivalent to the total number of individuals that have ever lived. Your hair is your hair, it not a mans, or a womans. You have your hair, and if you are a woman, your hair is a womans not matter what it looks like.

Your shoulders may be broad, but if you are a woman, your shoulders are a womans shoulder, and for aslong as your a woman, you characteristics are the characteristics of a woman.

Masculine and feminine are stereotypes, they do not define gender.
And if you tell me your clocked I believe you. I have no reason to doubt you.
Im just trying to understand why, Your focus is on shedding masculinity, and not on expressing the individual woman that only you can be.

Passing by its definition is giving the power to determine whether or not you count as a woman into the hands of someone ells. And even if, in the instance you meet somebody that passes you, the next person might not. Because those two individuals will see two different masculine, and feminine stereotypes, when they think of man and/or woman.

Every single man on this planet will have attributes that dont conform to masculine, and this is the same for woman and femininity.

If you cut out, everything masculine about yourself, then you will be 100% feminine, this is something that nobody on this planet is or ever be. Unless they have surgeries to conform to statistics generated, But those statistics change for every single person who is ever born.

And if you do conform to femininty you will be constantly changing your face, hairstyle, how you sound, how you talk, how you walk, the lengths of your legs, your style of dress, shoes, the activities you participate in, the food you eat eat, and the portions. And this list is just the tip of the iceburg.

And on top of that you will be the only feminine that exists. Stop giving people the power to hurt you. You are a woman no matter what you look act or sound like. And if you go full guy mode, you still a woman doing what she needs to be safe. But their isn't any point in hurting yourself mentally, in trying to stay safe physically. eg, if you will end yourself in guy mode, then risking you life en fem is safer.

I say, think about yourself, what do you need? eg what can you not live without expressing. Exspress those only in the amounts you need. But please, dont try and please everybody, its impossible, and will only hurt you.

Just because someone claims to of a gender doesn't mean they are of that gender. Being a woman is looks, body, mannerisms and language. Do you honestly think someone with a big bushy beard is a woman if they claim to be one?

Quote from: rmaddy on August 05, 2017, 10:48:24 AM
Maybe you can clarify what it is that you want.  The title suggests that you are interested in learning to accept that you don't pass.  If this is the case, I'm not sure why we are discussing your measurements and shape.  Learning to live as a non-passing TG generally involves a combination of talk therapy and HRT +/- to get to a place where you can, at the very least, be at peace with your body.  We all look for validation, but the non-passing transperson seeks it primarily from within, whereas the stealth/passer looks externally.  It's up to you, really. 

Two things come out in your posts:  1)  you are grieving not being able to pass, and 2) you are not very open to positive feedback about what, for most trans women, would be an enviable body to work with.  Regarding #1--I totally feel you.  Many of us have been there, and its really a drag to be misgendered all the time.  There are things you can do, but accepting the limitations of your body is part of that.  Regarding #2--girl, you got it easy.

I'm 6'3"  (190cm).  Much of my height is in the torso, so nothing fits.  I weigh 190 lbs on a good day.  My shoulders are 22".  My feet are size 13.  My head is large for a man, with nose and ears to match.

There are plenty of people here willing and ready to talk to you about self-acceptance and letting go of the idea of passing.  We're here for you.  If, on the other hand, you want to gripe about your measurements, you might want to reconsider.

Just to learn how to live as someone who doesn't pass and while I rarely ever get clocked doesn't mean I pass. Passing is more then just not getting clocked.

Quote from: Janes Groove on August 05, 2017, 01:27:28 PM
I agree with Devlyn Marie. And think this thread has really gone off the rails. If the OP says she doesn't pass take her at her word.

This endless -

I don't pass.
Yes you do.
No I don't.

Has become tiresome. If she doesn't think she passes, then she doesn't pass. There's nothing wrong with that! She's the one living a non-passing life.  IMO she would be better advised on how to deal with that.

People here are too sweet and often don't critique people. They think everyone here passes.

A couple of thoughts on passing

Who decides if you pass or not?

How do you know if you have passed?

Doesn't passing require Context? by that I mean. If I go about my daily business and do not detect anyone staring or making fun of me, if I am gendered correctly and my name is used. I am treated as any other woman in the place...did I just pass? 

Topic Locked.

Angie I am sick of your negativity and constant whinging. It is doing you no good and it is no good for others.

People have tried to help you but you are just interested in wallowing in your self inflicted misery.

That will be enough of it on the Forum.

Cindy
Forum Admin