Ok folks, this is one of those times I don't quite have the words, so bear with me.
What do you think are the psychological effects of growing up in the opposite gender body?
As opposed to growing up cisgendered?
And let's just keep it real here. We are the same as cisgendered men and women and yet not...
In the sense we have experienced things they have not.
So what do you think growing up in the opposite gender body and the opposite gender role does to the psyche?
OPTIMISTS NEED NOT REPLY
Well, we feel less secure in general, probably, as we have to justify ourselves on a daily basis since who we are doesn't just match our genitals. A cisgendered person never has to explain why he/she feels male/female.
Effects included stress, isolation, feeling different from everyone else, misunderstood, traumatic... It wasn't fun at all growing up gender variant.
y2g
Psychological confusion, depression, inverted gender roles; also the need to place the other gender (in my case it was girls and women because I was a boy/guy) on a pedestal because you are close to that which you consider your ideal in this life; psychological confusion, keeping all to myself.
Wing Walker
Hi, Nero,
I have missed your 'deep question' posts when I have dropped in lately. Nice to see another.
First, pretty much all of the above. I particularly liked the need to place the other gender (in my case it was girls and women because I was a boy/guy) on a pedestal because you are close to that which you consider your ideal in this life.... That was an especially good, and true, one, Wing Walker.
I always found the shame and the guilt over the difference between who I am and who others thought I was was maybe the most excruciating part. That and the sneaking, or sometimes really open and intense, feeling that I was hiding myself in a lie and was a coward to do so. *Whew* But, I was also very well aware that to present just the people I loved and who I felt deeply loved me with who I was proved a couple of times to be dangerous for my physical and emotional well-being. I was intensely afraid to present others with that.
Actually, I know things appear to be changing, and not necessarily with the speed of glaciation, and many younger TSes are blessed with supportive and understanding parents, ... actually, I wouldn't wish transsexuality on people I otherwise despise. It often seemed too harsh of a life. Especially regarding MTF life.
There was no one. I think a major boon for FTMs is that they often have spent a great deal of time in and are seen and respected as a valuable part of the lesbian community. Not everyone is like that, I know, but I think that acceptance among lesbians for men is greater than acceptance of gays for women.
Of course, the reverse is definitely true as well. I think many MTFs would rather die than be among gay males. But, I think still that just being part of some community is a big advantage for some TSes today. An advantage that many of us didn't have not so very long ago.
Nichole
Hmmmm, I think two soundtracks played endlessly in my head, smashing everything like an elephant in a china shop:
1) OMG, can anyone tell? Is it showing? Am I doing something to give it away?
Total paranoia and self-consciousness that people could tell I was insane and shameful, that some word, gesture, movement would give me away. I became quite the empath because of it, since I spent a lifetime trying to read people's thoughts to see if they were figuring me out. I'd notice every glance, hear every whisper. My self-consciousness was paralyzing, since NO MOVE was the only safe move.
2) I don't deserve...
Fill in the blank with anything, it didn't matter. I was a deceitful, sick, insane and shameful person and didn't belong in "normal" society, so I didn't deserve any of it's membership perks either. I'd been dropped into a club I didn't belong in, didn't deserve anything good that happened to me, and sooner or later people were going to figure me out and throw me out into the cold. Having a mother who's routine scolding for everything from spilt milk to poor grades was, "You should be ashamed of yourself" really didn't help much either. Repeat #1.
~Kate~
I believe it does tremendous damage. I have been on anti-anxiety drugs and anti-depressants since I was very young, ten or eleven and somehow my body (or perhaps my mind) has gotten used to these medications, for I have developed a chemical imbalance. If I stop my meds, I'm OK for a month or so and then sink into depression once again.
I mean, if you think about it, nowadays there's nothing (no reason whatsoever) for me to be depressed. I'm post-op, living a life that finally makes sense; I lead a very successful life (career wise), and love has touched my heart lately ;), but even so, if I discontinue my meds, depression will become "my friend" again. About a year ago, I underwent a few tests and they found out that I have a chemical imbalance (or at least that's the only answer they could come up with), so I must be on medication for life. What can I say? life is never perfect! ::)
tink :icon_chick:
Hmmm interesting question Nero :D
I'll follow the rest of the trend here:
Isolation
Social Awkwardness
Deep Depression
Despair
Envy
Hate
Jealously
Anxiety
Paranoia
Hold that in all your life and I think anyone would go crazy.
Do I need to elaborate on any or do most people understand?
Quote from: Tink on November 26, 2007, 07:05:20 PM
but even so, if I discontinue my meds, depression will become "my friend" again. About a year ago, I underwent a few tests and they found out that I have a chemical imbalance (or at least that's the only answer they could come up with), so I must be on medication for life. What can I say? life is never perfect! ::)
tink :icon_chick:
Tink,
Can I ask What type of tests did they do?
Alice
Well, I underwent a computerized tomography (CT scan of the brain) along with dopamine and serotonin tests while I was on my meds and six weeks after I discontinued them (on purpose for such tests) and basically I was "observed" by my psychiatrist and this is the diagnosis she gave me.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: redfish on November 26, 2007, 07:21:02 PM
I think you get broken as a person
Now I can relate to that. I broke big time and have been seing my doctors ever since
Quote from: shanetastic on November 26, 2007, 07:10:22 PM
Hmmm interesting question Nero :D
I'll follow the rest of the trend here:
Isolation
Social Awkwardness
Deep Depression
Despair
Envy
Hate
Jealously
Anxiety
Paranoia
Hold that in all your life and I think anyone would go crazy.
Do I need to elaborate on any or do most people understand?
I have had many of those things as a broken person. People often avoid me since as they can not relate to my experience.
Alice
Oh where to start....the effects are far reaching.
It has made me confused. I still don't know who I really am, I know I exist and that I get through life, but that's about it. It really hit me a couple weeks ago when someone at work asked me what I like to do for fun, and I couldn't really come up with an answer, so I quickly made one up and found a reason to walk away.
It has made me awkward. I don't feel like anyone understands me, and I hardly expect them to when I barely understand myself. I feel like I can relate to other's feelings, but not experiences, even if I should be able to.
It makes me embarrassed for existing. I'm ashamed of being something I'm not, and depressed by continuing to not be me. I constantly fear rejection, and never expect to be accepted. As a result, there was a period in my life where I just stopped trying to do anything, because trying meant possibly failing or being rejected. I lost my job, I lost my friends, and I nearly lost my family.
It made me feel worthless and inept. Though I'm doing better with this now, until recently I've felt like I could never do anything right and never deserved to have or do anything. I would beat myself up mentally and physically over any imperfection or mistake.
I say I've never really been suicidal, but that is only part true. I didn't exactly want to end my life, but I did want to just stop living. I was afraid if I tried to kill myself that I wouldn't succeed, and living through that would be even more painful. I don't mean to be completely pathetic, but during adolescence, fear of screwing up my own death is mostly what kept me alive.
It has made me lonely. The few friends I do have only know the fake me, the real me constantly feels alone.
It has made me repress most of my childhood memories, and they have only recently been coming back. Memories of my own self expression, and of the consequences. I would still rather not remember the consequences.
The more I think about my problems, the more I'm able to tie them back to being forced to not truly be myself. Someday I'll get all of this behind me, looking forward to that keeps me going.
Re: What does growing up in the opposite gender body do to the psyche?
it pulverizes it to almost nothingness.
For me there is an effect of having borderline dual personality. I had to *blend* so completely that I very nearly created another personality in myself. There are a lot of things that I have done in my life that were not even close to my personality and were usually far beyond the norm for my supposed gender. A sort of over compensation if you will. Because of this I am fighting to let go of desires, feelings and reactions that were never mine to start with. They all belonged to "him".
it squishes it into a space smaller than it can possibly fit, with the edges all raw, inflamed, and bleeding. from this cramped space, you look out at the world, and and you hate it, and you hate yourself in it, so that you have a conundrum: which do you hate more? the world, or yourself? it is this momentary confusion that saves you, because, Look: everyone is confused! especially the ones who don't think they're confused. you spin around twenty times and finally you say i can't do this anymore, whatever happens, come what may, i'm going to be myself. then you look around, and, well, the world is still full of hate! but you don't hate yourself anymore. now you find that it's really no more effort, really, to be your own friend rather than your own worst enemy. you take a breath, and you think, this living thing might not be so bad, after all.
Quote from: Kate on November 26, 2007, 06:44:26 PM
Hmmmm, I think two soundtracks played endlessly in my head, smashing everything like an elephant in a china shop:
1) OMG, can anyone tell? Is it showing? Am I doing something to give it away?
Total paranoia and self-consciousness that people could tell I was insane and shameful, that some word, gesture, movement would give me away. I became quite the empath because of it, since I spent a lifetime trying to read people's thoughts to see if they were figuring me out. I'd notice every glance, hear every whisper. My self-consciousness was paralyzing, since NO MOVE was the only safe move.
~Kate~
I relate more to Kate's 1st soundtrack than to her second. Add to that the joy of loneliness, depression, and severe alienation, and you have entered into hell.
I know this all builds or breaks a persons character, however, as to the psyche itself, I'm not sure. From my own experience, I believe the damage is reversible, and remember, my experience includes starting my life witnessing a terrible crime. i can't say that I am 100 percent well. There may be issues that are not uncovered until some future experience reveals them for me.
I'm pretty sure the answer really depends upon the individual. Some people will suffer and recover. Some people will stay broken. I need to believe that the majority will heal.
I'm not sure this is what you are looking for, but I hope it's on topic.
Rebis
it makes you hate yourself more than anyone can imagine.
it makes you a risk taker
it makes you drink
I can relate to so much that has been said.
For me, I felt so foreign and constantly berrated myself for not being like all the other girls. I knew I wasn't one of them, and yet I obviously was. I really tried for a long time to be normal. I studied other girls trying to figure out what to do. I just wanted to be normal so everyone wouldn't hate me so much.
I can relate to both of Kate's answer's, especially the parts which I paraphrase as:
Paralysis and
Worthlessness.
Envy is an interesting one. Every day, we are virtually pickled with ads and images targeted to women. Rather than filter these as background noise, these messages get amplified and translated into unease, a kind of envy and back to worthlessness.
Great thread!
CeeCee
Quote from: Nero on November 26, 2007, 11:42:41 PM
I can relate to so much that has been said.
For me, I felt so foreign and constantly berrated myself for not being like all the other girls. I knew I wasn't one of them, and yet I obviously was. I really tried for a long time to be normal. I studied other girls trying to figure out what to do. I just wanted to be normal so everyone wouldn't hate me so much.
The same goes for boys, Nero. Be different and be ostracized at best. No matter what I did, I was not a baseball card collector. I never played Little League baseball. I didn't play sandlot football. I could not name the roster of the 1960 New York Yankees. I caught hell. Study their behaviour as I did, I could not follow their lead. It was not in me.
Little girls have no place for little boys of any kind.
Wing Walker
Hi all.
So much here that has been said that I can identify with. Well to make it as brief as I can I spent twenty five years of my life drinking alcoholically, trying to hide behind a bottle, so that I wouldn't have to face the truth. I heard someone mention being empathic, I was already an empath for as far back as I can remember as a child. But then the GID, or desire to be a girl just became so overwhelmingly intense that I began to have notions of suicide. So now I had this female persona who resided within me side by side with the empathy. Feeling everyones psychic energy, yes. And because I was able to do that with other people I thought other people could do the same with me. "Paranoya" you wanna bet, big time. When I finally put the cork back on the bottle my psychiatrist was able to diagnose me having by-polar disorder.
After getting on the meds to stabilize my by-polar disorder, then I found myself getting even more sensitive to peoples energy but by this time I knew that there wasn't any other people or very few if there was any that could read me the same way, unless I made it very obvious to them to read me. Soon after this the GID set in and finally 8 years ago I discovered what the word transsexual meant. So back to my shrink I went and I was sent to the the Clark Institute in Toronto for evaluation and a couple months later I was on estrogen and Spironolactone and I was on my way to transitioning to be that whom is my inner-self. I followed the transition to it's completion, or least ways, as far as I could take it in the physical.
I faltered many times on my journey to become Cindy and the fear I went through I came near quiting a couple of times. But I put to much blood sweat and tears, not to mention money, to be Cindy. So I said to myself there ain't no way I am backing away from being Cindy now. But bonus was that Cindy is so much more me then I ever was as the other persona. But I can also identify with what I have read thus far about androgyne. I believe I was for a good many years, quite possibly I still am. But I have kind of become attached to Cindy, She has such a great capacity to love and care for others. If I have it my way I will dies being a care giver.
Cindy
Quote from: Nero on November 26, 2007, 11:42:41 PM
I can relate to so much that has been said.
For me, I felt so foreign and constantly berrated myself for not being like all the other girls. I knew I wasn't one of them, and yet I obviously was. I really tried for a long time to be normal. I studied other girls trying to figure out what to do. I just wanted to be normal so everyone wouldn't hate me so much.
Just out of curiosity, how does seeing 'the perfect man' in ads affect you?
I bring this up because someone pointed out that looking at all the perfect women is painful for us. I don't think I've heard FtM's speak much of feeling bad because of advertisements and movies. Maybe you guys don't give a damned.
Do the words chronic trauma adequately express it?
Perhaps we should concentrate on the positive rather than on the negative. The mere fact that we are posting here means that we are alive despite the pain and sorrows of GID. Sometimes I feel like a wounded soldier, without an arm or a leg, burnt beyond recognition, with very deep scars that perhaps will never fade, but I'm alive and the war is over...
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on November 27, 2007, 05:43:48 PM
Perhaps we should concentrate on the positive rather than on the negative. The mere fact that we are posting here is that we are alive despite the pain and sorrows of GID. Sometimes I feel like a wounded soldier, without an arm or a leg, with very deep and scars that perhaps will never fade, but I'm alive and the war is over...
tink :icon_chick:
You can't, Tink. Nero said no optimists allowed. That's why I haven't posted :) I think there's good as well as bad, and I prefer to concentrate on the good.
Dennis
Oh well, I'm sure Nero will cut me some slack! (I hope)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on November 27, 2007, 05:47:43 PM
Oh well, I'm sure Nero will cut me some slack! (I hope)
tink :icon_chick:
Only for the Faery Queen.
Quote from: Dennis on November 27, 2007, 05:45:02 PM
You can't, Tink. Nero said no optimists allowed. That's why I haven't posted :) I think there's good as well as bad, and I prefer to concentrate on the good.
Dennis
You can share. Share whatever effects you feel it has had on your psyche - good or bad. (Just go easy on the 'there are people starving in China, quadripeligics, we're so fortunate' kind of thing. That's all.) If you feel there's good effects of growing up trans, I'd be interested in hearing it.
Hehe, I've never been a "there are children starving in China" kind of optimist. I think it's given me an awareness of sexism that most men don't have, having never experienced being treated as a woman. Most men are walking on eggshells around the concept of sexism, because they just aren't conscious of its pervasiveness.
I think, too, it's given me the ability to talk to women without being intimidated. They're not quite as mysterious as many men think (which doesn't mean I can actually understand them or anything).
And, for me, it means that I'm not as insecure in my masculinity as a lot of bio men are, especially guys my height. I haven't had it pounded in to me from an early age that if you don't follow certain behavioural rules, you're gay or feminine. And, having been thought of as both gay and female, I don't really care if someone wants to think I am. I know who I am. I went through a lot of angst and trouble to get to be who I am. If someone wants to criticize me or thinks they're insulting me by calling me any of that, they can sod off.
Dennis
I like what you said Dennis, but why does the journey have to be so rough?
Quote from: Rebis on November 27, 2007, 07:02:57 PM
I like what you said Dennis, but why does the journey have to be so rough?
Why? Why? Why? Why are we on this journey at all? Everything I believed in has been crushed because of this. I thought this was a simple world with male and female people.
Alice
Quote from: Alice on November 27, 2007, 07:09:22 PM
Quote from: Rebis on November 27, 2007, 07:02:57 PM
I like what you said Dennis, but why does the journey have to be so rough?
Why? Why? Why? Why are we on this journey at all? Everything I believed in has been crushed because of this. I thought this was a simple world with male and female people.
Alice
Why not?
I think that's the question we need to ask more often of ourselves. "Why not me."
I spent a long time asking why me? Why is it so difficult to be me. A few years ago a young man told me.
"Mom, this came to you because you have the courage and strength to live through it and be better because of it. You show people it can be done. You show them that this is real, not just some made-up stuff that people do to get away from things. Your Goddess chose you, because She knew that this would not kill you. Because She knew that most people never have to do it, just the stronger ones."
I cried and cried. He moved me, deeply. Perhaps more than anyone else ever has. I still hold on to that. Are there children starving in China? *smile*
Children starve everywhere. So do adults.
GID gave me reason to discover "who I REALLY am." As the boy said, most people don't have that advantage. For us, it's a requirement to live. For us, it can keep us from starving.
For me its been a lifetime of waiting for the next major episode of depression and withdrawl and I'm tired of it all.
For me it was to admit defeat and then surrender to the GID and just follow my instincts. I didn't do it because I wanted to be this or that gender, by this time there was only one way to go, then I just followed that way. Everything else fell together easy after that, and I love who I am.
Cindy
I love who I am now too. But I really would have enjoyed liking myself 20 years ago. :)
I believe the problem is less with us than it is with the world around us squeezing us as though we're rats in the grip of a python.
Knowing it could have been better doesn't help, though.
The eyes of some have begun to open but there are still to many people with small minds who are so close sighted they can't see beyond there noses. Oh and then you have the ones with a bad case paranoia and then those with prejudice in their heart, hate and fear go together quite well, especially those who fear the unknown or anything that looks strange to them. The Bible thumpers, ya it ain't no wonder we were so late doing what we needed to do Rebis hon. At least in the past decade there has been growing number of places to go get information. Even though there are more people that are open minded today, there are still those that could be detrimental to ones health. I am a care giver, I give what I can to help those who need it and that is my way to bring some order of peace at least to some in the community where I live here.
Cindy
On the positive side, my journey across gender has offered insight and understanding that I couldn't have achieved in any other way. That is indeed a blessing and I hope to find ways to use these tremendous gifts to help make this world a better place.
zythyra