Do we eventually have our doses reduced as we approach our golden years? Are the levels less important after the feminizing or masculinizing effects have taken place? I'm getting old, I have to worry about this stuff! :laugh:
Hugs, Devlyn
I've know transwomen in their 70's and 80's take doses higher than what is typically prescribed for menopausal women and do quite fine on them. Studies suggest this isn't a problem as long as the estrogen is bio-identical and is taken non-orally.
Yep, sublingual, transdermal or injected all bypass most concerns for putting a higher load on the liver.
Absence of hormones causes far more health problems than HRT so unless you have very specific contraindications hrt will be a net positive
Thanks, Kay and Sadie. I guess what I meant to ask is do hormone levels drop as people age, and do we try to mimic that in our systems?
Hugs, Devlyn
My daughter asked the same thing.
If we did, at your, my age we would see effectively no transition, afaik post menopause the ovaries produce no estrogen. The downsides are osteoporosis, decreased healing times (I've upped my estrogen dose to double normal during GCS recovery to improve healing capacity, E levels around 350. The main reason I'll be going back to my normal dose once I'm done healing will be to spend less $ in estradiol.
Alright Dev,
That'll be enough of that "I'm getting old" nonsense. You are younger than I am and younger than a lot of us on this here forum. We don't need, nor will we put up with such negative talk from you youngin. Now do as you are supposed to and go discuss it with your doctor.
Yes, yes, I know I'm in denial and I like it that way.
Hugs,
Laurie
I had a similar thought pop into my head regarding aging (though thankfully I'm still a bit away from that, I like to think ahead.)
My doctor said that while some changes of HRT are permanent, some may not be, and that if I stopped taking hormones, some things like body fat and body hair reduction would reverse. If this is true, then am I destined to be taking hormones until the day I die, rather than cis women who go through menopause?
Quote from: Laurie on July 06, 2017, 09:19:22 AM
Alright Dev,
That'll be enough of that "I'm getting old" nonsense. You are younger than I am and younger than a lot of us on this here forum. We don't need, nor will we put up with such negative talk from you youngin. Now do as you are supposed to and go discuss it with your doctor.
Yes, yes, I know I'm in denial and I like it that way.
Hugs,
Laurie
Wow, Denali, you sure do get around! Also, your autocorrect is acting up again.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 06, 2017, 10:20:00 AM
Wow, Denali, you sure do get around! Also, your autocorrect is acting up again.
Hugs, Devlyn
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) *sigh*
At least you didn't run away this time.
SMACK!! Behave young lady.
Hugs,
Laurie
Hi Devlyn,
I am tagging into this thread because I too am interested in the responses. I am only 69 years of age so won't be "older" for another decade or two but I should at least prepare for the eventuallity. Surgery is scheduled in 68 more days and I am very concerned about maintaining bone density with the changes to my hormone balance. It is an issue that I will bring up with my OB/GEN next month.
Anne
Our levels ought to be those of a teenage girl during transition. So, subtract 50 years from my chronological age, and that is the level I think they should be shooting for. I successfully urged my doc to increase my E dosage on my latest checkup. I hope she will continue that 50-year differential indefinitely. So, when I am 100, i'll be fine with them starting to reduce my dose.
Exactly why I asked. Grannies in perpetual puberty seems a cultural oddity. I think I'd prefer to eventually taper back to what a senior could expect for levels. Great discussion so far. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Studies in cismen with advanced prostate cancer (risk is increased due to age and cancer), aged 49-91 yrs old, have shown that high estradiol levels (mean, 500-600 pg/ml, up to around 1,000), taken transdermally, did not lead to increased cardiovascular or thromboembolic complications. There was actually normalization of clotting.
In women with advanced breast cancer and aged 40-92 yrs old, despite VERY high doses of oral bio-identical estradiol and levels of estradiol around 2,500 pg/ml, there was only one incidence of thrombosis in more than 50 women, follow-up 6-22 months.
Food for thought...
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 05, 2017, 07:42:25 PM
Do we eventually have our doses reduced as we approach our golden years? Are the levels less important after the feminizing or masculinizing effects have taken place? I'm getting old, I have to worry about this stuff! :laugh:
Hugs, Devlyn
Asked my doctor this very question shortly after post op. I'm 62 and asked where I should be keeping my E levels as I get older. Her answer was as long as my blood work keeps coming back normal, stay where I am now, 600 pg/ml.
I guess I am one of the few on the site that can provide a data point. After surgery, I was reduced to a quarter dosage with the thought that I no longer required a transition dosage. As I was on Premarin at the time, I suspect my blood levels were very low and my development almost stopped. I have been back on pills for a little over a year and I am on a half dosage. My levels are currently around 50 pg/ml 24 hours after my last dose and while this is in the menopause range, it's sufficient to provide development. I am seeing fat movement to my legs and my breast ache and have lost size off my waist. My NP has indicated that a full dosage isn't needed by somebody who is older and is post surgical. I am making progress but it seems like I am on the slow boat of development. :(
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 05, 2017, 07:42:25 PM
Do we eventually have our doses reduced as we approach our golden years? Are the levels less important after the feminizing or masculinizing effects have taken place? I'm getting old, I have to worry about this stuff! :laugh:
Hugs, Devlyn
Devlyn I've been fooling death since my four open heart surgeries. If you have thrombosis and are susceptible to strokes then you need to be somewhat vigilant. Otherwise don't worry. Live.
Do not fret....when your time has come and gone, you will be the very last to know. ;)
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 06, 2017, 07:43:27 AM
Thanks, Kay and Sadie. I guess what I meant to ask is do hormone levels drop as people age, and do we try to mimic that in our systems?
Hugs, Devlyn
If we try to mimic age related hormone levels, then expect to look your age. Estradiol is very safe at any age and it does give us a more youthful appearance.
From what I've seen here estrogen seems to be like a fountain of youth. I would totally take the largest dose I could safely if I was old. Sure I would still be old but if you don't look old then it doesn't count. I'm just saying.
Julia
If there was an actual fountain of youth, I wouldn't drink from it. It looks like I'm in the minority with that opinion, though.
Hugs, Devlyn
If it is deemed safe, why not?
It may be safe to stay in puberty until your deathbed, but it's not anything I'm interested in. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Why not if it improves your quality of life? I'm just curious. Let me know if I'm being annoying ;D
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 08, 2017, 09:09:36 AM
It may be safe to stay in puberty until your deathbed, but it's not anything I'm interested in. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
I'm a bit confused. You say "stay in puberty until your deathbed." Since most of the changes we are looking for happen in a few years (certainly less than a decade), do we stay on the same, high doses straight through, or wouldn't we go on a lower maintenance level since there's no further changes being worked for? Kind of like regular puberty for cis folks?
Quote from: KayXo on July 08, 2017, 09:12:59 AM
Why not if it improves your quality of life? I'm just curious. Let me know if I'm being annoying ;D
I see, you want me to be the one that starts a flame war in my own thread. :laugh: I'm up for the challenge. :)
I feel the teenage girl effects. I understand they're a natural thing, and part of developing into a woman, or in my case a genderfluid person with a female presentation. Once the hormones have done their job and pushed me to Tanner 4 or 5, I have no further need for teenage hormone levels, and I would prefer an age appropriate dose. Again, after the magic has happened.
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: SaintAlia on July 08, 2017, 09:42:02 AM
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 08, 2017, 09:09:36 AM
It may be safe to stay in puberty until your deathbed, but it's not anything I'm interested in. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
I'm a bit confused. You say "stay in puberty until your deathbed." Since most of the changes we are looking for happen in a few years (certainly less than a decade), do we stay on the same, high doses straight through, or wouldn't we go on a lower maintenance level since there's no further changes being worked for? Kind of like regular puberty for cis folks?
That's my point right there. You hit it right on the head.
Hugs, Devlyn
Yes....I was always concerned of the "downsides" to HRT and particularly Estogen in particular. But with the advent of 17B Bio-Identical Estrogen's and with their profile in respect to parenteral, patch, sublingual or even gel deliveries, I'm beginning to see the upside to sticking with this protocol and mainting these numbers till the end. We don't have ovaries or uterus's so we're much less inclined to deal with the cancers Cis Women seem to have to concern themselves with. When you consider that Blood clotting is a non-issue with these kinds of application, why would I ever give up on the stuff? I feel better, look younger, think more clearly, have more energy, am more mentally focused and balanced than I have ever been. For us as TS Women, it may just be the Holy Grail and the Fountain of Youth. At this point in my life, it's difficult for me to imagine stopping...ever. I don't know a post menopausal woman that doesn't lament the loses she experienced after her body quit making copious amounts of E. I'm not talking about headaches, cramps or menstruation...I mean the other stuff. And again, since I experience none of that hellish trifecta I just mentioned, what's in it for me to set myself up for Menopause? I'm not a cis-woman and I don't have her co-morbid issues from HRT. Someone share the downside with me.
We just Lost Aleshia Brevard. (RIP) One of our earliest pioneers. She lived a healthy fascinating life and lived to be 79 years of age. A loss, for sure, but a successful life to be celebrate!. And she looked fantastic to the end. .........
sign me up!!
Personally, I hope to gradually reduce my estrogen until I'm "menopausal," eventually, because of precisely the "grannies in perpetual puberty" thing. If I have ill effects from it, I will of course reconsider, but I already feel weird being so out of step with my age peers. Once feminizing is fully finished - which I think is probably already the case - I'm on E just for the mental effects and to stave off menopause, and that means I have the same choices a cis woman does about where to go from there.
(I'm also on menopausal doses already, because I was very responsive to a low dose, so it's equally possible for me to claim to be on routine HRT the way some cis women do. There's no particular urgency to this experiment.)
Quote from: Jenna Marie on July 08, 2017, 03:06:46 PM
There's no particular urgency to this experiment.)
I can appreciate YOU feel that way....but that idea is completely antithetical to my tact on this journey. We all have different agenda's plans and hopes.
Oh..... and as to being a granny on E, if I can look 40 at 70 and maintain friendships with people of that age and mindset because I appear as their peers??? Absolutely, all the better. I don't want to be sitting around with older people discussing my bowels, bladder, knees, prescriptions, doctors ...yadda, yadda, yadda, ..........ever!
Jentay, sure, we're all different. :) Though the "experiment" I was referring to was tapering off of HRT, to be clear. I remember feeling tremendous urgency when I first started! (But I'm coming up on 8 years on HRT and 7 years post-transition, so to be honest, I rarely even think about trans issues anymore, at least when I'm not on trans sites. I also learned to be careful what I wished for when I was a C cup by 3 months on HRT... urgency or not, that actually messed up my planned time to come out!)
Quote from: Jenna Marie on July 08, 2017, 03:26:24 PM
I was a C cup by 3 months on HRT... urgency or not, that actually messed up my planned time to come out!)
L.O.L. I should have such issues, Jenna! The titty fairy has decided against visiting me. I will have to make a trip to the titty store.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 08, 2017, 08:59:20 AM
If there was an actual fountain of youth, I wouldn't drink from it. It looks like I'm in the minority with that opinion, though.
Hugs, Devlyn
There is such a fountain. It is diet and exercise. The hormones don't hurt either.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
Quote from: jentay1367 on July 08, 2017, 03:14:18 PM
I can appreciate YOU feel that way....but that idea is completely antithetical to my tact on this journey. We all have different agenda's plans and hopes.
Oh..... and as to being a granny on E, if I can look 40 at 70 and maintain friendships with people of that age and mindset because I appear as their peers??? Absolutely, all the better. I don't want to be sitting around with older people discussing my bowels, bladder, knees, prescriptions, doctors ...yadda, yadda, yadda, ..........ever!
For most people I know that doesn't start in their 70's but rather in their mid 50's.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
Quote from: Deborah on July 08, 2017, 04:03:58 PM
For most people I know that doesn't start in their 70's but rather in their mid 50's.
Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote
Yeah...they usually discuss these things over a meal of KFC or McDonalds and muse with one another as to why their health is so crappy.... ::)
This thread seems to be wandering a bit but I could use some help understanding either longer term effects or dosage effects of estradiol.
I have found delightful changes to my body, adding some curves, softening features and I love the growth of my girls. But the biggest benefit to me has been the head stuff. The emotional feelings, the ability to feel and to cry, the feelings of empathy.....all these things that were so foreign to me in my old self. I have been on hrt for just over a year and I am continuing to see the physical changes but those should level off at some point in the future and lowering dosages should not have a major change or reduction on my old body. But what about the head stuff, the extreme joy and appreciation of whimsy and the ability to FEEL and to cry. I see older cis women losing the appreciation of the magic of life. I went through 67 years of getting by, coping and NOT feeling. Will the magic go away if I went to menopausal dosages? This is something so important to me that I am really afraid of losing it.
Anne
Thanks for joining in, Anne.
Quote from: Anne Blake on July 08, 2017, 05:07:13 PM
This thread seems to be wandering a bit but I could use some help understanding either longer term effects or dosage effects of estradiol.
I have found delightful changes to my body, adding some curves, softening features and I love the growth of my girls. But the biggest benefit to me has been the head stuff. The emotional feelings, the ability to feel and to cry, the feelings of empathy.....all these things that were so foreign to me in my old self. I have been on hrt for just over a year and I am continuing to see the physical changes but those should level off at some point in the future and lowering dosages should not have a major change or reduction on my old body. But what about the head stuff, the extreme joy and appreciation of whimsy and the ability to FEEL and to cry. I see older cis women losing the appreciation of the magic of life. I went through 67 years of getting by, coping and NOT feeling. Will the magic go away if I went to menopausal dosages? This is something so important to me that I am really afraid of losing it.
Anne
Yeah, I'm sure Godwin's Law will come into play sooner (probably) than later. :laugh:
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Anne Blake on July 08, 2017, 05:07:13 PM
This thread seems to be wandering a bit but I could use some help understanding either longer term effects or dosage effects of estradiol.
I have found delightful changes to my body, adding some curves, softening features and I love the growth of my girls. But the biggest benefit to me has been the head stuff. The emotional feelings, the ability to feel and to cry, the feelings of empathy.....all these things that were so foreign to me in my old self. I have been on hrt for just over a year and I am continuing to see the physical changes but those should level off at some point in the future and lowering dosages should not have a major change or reduction on my old body. But what about the head stuff, the extreme joy and appreciation of whimsy and the ability to FEEL and to cry. I see older cis women losing the appreciation of the magic of life. I went through 67 years of getting by, coping and NOT feeling. Will the magic go away if I went to menopausal dosages? This is something so important to me that I am really afraid of losing it.
Anne
Curious question, huh? I mean, I look at the avg. 70 year old woman that never engaged in HRT regimen and a good deal of them are broken. Certainly not all...but a good many. Overweight, cellulite, lose skin, brittle nails, dry hair, Joint problems, heart problems, brittle bones .....and it goes on and on. Why would it be any different for us if we chose to maintain the post menopausal levels of estrogen? I'd be interested to hear some other opinions as well. Men of a certain age take Testosterone and HGH. Often this causes damage to their kidneys and heart. But that is testosterone and when it doesn't do those things, these men often look and feel years younger than their chronological age. Th new 17b estrogen's have a profile that make it look as though you'd be crazy as a TS woman not to continue taking them. Natal women have to concern themselves with various cancers, but this doesn't appear to be the case for TS Women.
I so agree with Anne. It's sort of like the Merlin effect - we start aging backwards now. Not quite but almost. The mental and emotional enhancements are worth any long term side effects.
And FWIW I feel like even though I'm not socially transitioned (yet?), there's at least some reward at the end of my rainbow for having spent 50 years doing time as a man. I would, however, like to dump the Spiro at some point and maybe get an Orchidectomy.
Now as far as the inciter-in-chief (Devlyn) I was going to quote the bar scene from The Big Lebowski where Walter is spouting about a certain party at least having an ethos...not a good idea.