Are there any benefits of going into hrt other for aesthetic and psychological reasons that outweight the various health concern cons of doing it, like I even consider boob growth more of a con than a pro ?
Hrt with only AAs , or with only progestins , or with SARMs only , or estrogen + AA and SERMs, or low estrogen, etc, which has more benefits inside this context ?
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 12:32:59 AM
Are there any benefits of going into hrt other for aesthetic and psychological reasons that outweight the various health concern cons of doing it, like I even consider boob growth more of a con than a pro ?
Hrt with only AAs , or with only progestins , or with SARMs only , or estrogen + AA and SERMs, or low estrogen, etc, which has more benefits inside this context ?
HRT with AA+estrogen has first a diagnosis benefit: it you can stand it after a month or so, or even feel better, it confirms your medical condition of gender dysphoria. Then, if it is confirmed, you will be feel better continuing HRT.
This is what I did and keep doing, while still living in male mode every day. Breast growth is not so visible after 2 years of low/moderate dose (I am 52). But it depends on your age and morphology.
I've been doing some research and i found some information on risks of cross sex hormones in transfem and transmasc people : http://www.endocrinologistmelbourne.com.au/transgender/ (I find it depressing also bc there's no comparison to cisgender people with natural hormones )
https://www.endocrineweb.com/professional/gender-identity/transgender-hormone-therapy-safe-when-monitored-certain-risks
And idk, I just find it depressing that Trans folks and cis woman go throughout a lot of stuff.
I still don't understand why somebody who is Transfem have hrt if hrt has all these risks, and then you only gain small breasts and some curves, and breasts are not something cool to have , they open a door for a ton of breast disease risk, plus they're small and still are painful and cause pain in the back etc. Idk I tend to weight the physical more Than the psychological, I actually get the social part and the body image part but there's alternatives to taking hormones, so idk if it's a better idea to try hrt if you don't mind the alternatives, I wonder if the hrt has benefits, maybe living more than cis man or else? Would be fantastic.
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 03:09:34 AM
I've been doing some research and i found some information on risks of cross sex hormones in transfem and transmasc people : http://www.endocrinologistmelbourne.com.au/transgender/ (I find it depressing also bc there's no comparison to cisgender people with natural hormones )
https://www.endocrineweb.com/professional/gender-identity/transgender-hormone-therapy-safe-when-monitored-certain-risks
And idk, I just find it depressing that Trans folks and cis woman go throughout a lot of stuff.
I still don't understand why somebody who is Transfem have hrt if hrt has all these risks, and then you only gain small breasts and some curves, and breasts are not something cool to have , they open a door for a ton of breast disease risk, plus they're small and still are painful and cause pain in the back etc. Idk I tend to weight the physical more Than the psychological, I actually get the social part and the body image part but there's alternatives to taking hormones, so idk if it's a better idea to try hrt if you don't mind the alternatives, I wonder if the hrt has benefits, maybe living more than cis man or else? Would be fantastic.
Why would I take HRT? Because the risks are minimal when you have proper monitoring done by a doctor. The risk of breast cancer is about the same as a cis female, possibly lower. Risks of mastitis are virtually none. The risk of other common best issues is no better or worse than cis women. Breast pain happens during growth periods and should diminish when growth is complete. If it doesn't, you should consult your doctor. Overly large breasts can cause back pain, something that can be relieved via a breast reduction.
You say there are alternatives, I wonder what they are, as I'm sure many of us have tried plenty of alternatives. As for benefits, a reduction in gender dysphoria is a common one. Reduction in depression and anxiety is also common - I tried many anti-depressants over the years and none really helped.
Well, yeah the goal is to make one feel alright both psychologically and physically, some people can alleviate their dysphoria with surgeries , prosthetics, clothing and minor body modifications that doesn't seem as dangerously appealing as standard hrt, maybe there's less risky hrt regimens out there ? Maybe they even make you live more than a cis man, that's why I am asking regardless of the aesthetic and psychological part.
Anyway , maybe I feel more safe and comfortable if I wore prosthetics, had permanent hair removal etc and didn't do hrt. The idea of doing hrt to get tiny boobs and curves and stop baldness and constantly be scared of health risks don't seem appealing to me. Idk, I guess even anti balding hormone regimen looks more beneficial as I don't believe there's too much attached to it . Oh well, I'm really unsure on that one, hrt is not conning me yet.
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 03:55:15 AM
Well, yeah the goal is to make one feel alright both psychologically and physically, some people can alleviate their dysphoria with surgeries , prosthetics, clothing and minor body modifications that doesn't seem as dangerously appealing as standard hrt, maybe there's less risky hrt regimens out there ? Maybe they even make you live more than a cis man, that's why I am asking regardless of the aesthetic and psychological part.
Anesthesia has a higher risk of death than HRT, much higher. And for many, prosthetics can make them feel worse.
QuoteAnyway , maybe I feel more safe and comfortable if I wore prosthetics, had permanent hair removal etc and didn't do hrt. The idea of doing hrt to get tiny boobs and curves and stop baldness and constantly be scared of health risks don't seem appealing to me. Idk, I guess even anti balding hormone regimen looks more beneficial as I don't believe there's too much attached to it . Oh well, I'm really unsure on that one, hrt is not conning me yet.
Why ask the question if you've already made up your mind that HRT is some kind of death trap with no real benefits? The risks, while they exist, are very minor, so I'll bow out of the conversation at this point.
I wasn't talking about implants. Sorry I meant the ones drag queens usually use.
I don't know whether or not they're a deadly trap , I know people don't die out of them , Im just researching if they make any benefit for physical health that is worth wasting money on and being constantly concerned about them.
Hello Undead Cat and Welcome to Susan's
This is a support site for Trans*people and you are welcome as long as you follow the Terms off Service as listed below.
I am unsure where your questions are coming from our what your interests are. Maybe you could introduce yourself?
Some of the basic questions about your membership are here:
- Site Terms of Service and rules to live by (http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
- Standard Terms and Definitions (http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)
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OK, my final comment in this thread..
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 04:12:42 AM
I wasn't talking about implants. Sorry I meant the ones drag queens usually use.
So was I.. Not that implants are an option for someone with no breast growth without multiple procedures - so increased anesthesia risk.
QuoteI don't know whether or not they're a deadly trap , I know people don't die out of them , Im just researching if they make any benefit for physical health that is worth wasting money on and being constantly concerned about them.
Physical health is not a reason why trans people take them, we take them for the psychological and aesthetic, if those reasons don't work for you, then hormones are probably not for you - have a chat with a therapist. That said, many find the life is extended due to no longer wanting to commit suicide due to the depression that dysphoria can cause.
Yeah, I see, my problem with my psychological and aesthetic health can be resolved without hrt apparently. Idk, I just wonder if I'm not gonna regret not taking hrt , but still my discomfort can be resolved without it , oh well that's pretty confusing.
oh by the way, I was talking about the prostethics people can buy at the Internet, not surgical prosthetics. Ops.
Quote from: Cindy on July 22, 2017, 04:37:56 AM
Hello Undead Cat and Welcome to Susan's
This is a support site for Trans*people and you are welcome as long as you follow the Terms off Service as listed below.
I am unsure where your questions are coming from our what your interests are. Maybe you could introduce yourself?
Some of the basic questions about your membership are here:
- Site Terms of Service and rules to live by (http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)
- Standard Terms and Definitions (http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html)
- Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar) (http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html.)
- Reputation rules (http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,18960.0.html)
- News posting & quoting guidelines (http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,174951.0.html)
- Photo, avatars, and signature images policy (http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,59974.msg383866.html#msg383866)
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to bother but I divided the topic in 2, in this page I wanted to hear about the transfeminine perspective and in the other about the transmasculine perspective.
I shall combine the topics
I really don't think it's a good idea, it's gonna make a mess. Dx
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 05:01:36 AM
Yeah, I see, my problem with my psychological and aesthetic health can be resolved without hrt apparently. Idk, I just wonder if I'm not gonna regret not taking hrt , but still my discomfort can be resolved without it , oh well that's pretty confusing.
oh by the way, I was talking about the prostethics people can buy at the Internet, not surgical prosthetics. Ops.
I suggest you talk to a gender therapist first and foremost to help you determine how best to deal with your particular situation. It will be far less confusing for you in handling this complex subject. Maybe HRT will be best for you, maybe not. That is best discussed with a gender therapist who can help you explore this issue with expert guidance and tailored to your specific needs.
Swallowing estrogen pills is the most dangerous way to take it and is something I would never consider as the risk is absolutely unnecessary. Spironolactone is also something that's not for me (dehydration and electrolyte problems potentially, with nausea as a common side effect) neither is Cyproterone acetate (Androcur) on any long term basis. I'd like a supplementary progesterone alongside the estrogen. Could be a low dose, but not estrogen alone.
Those would be my conditions for starting HRT.
I'm a believer in trying everything I can beforehand in order to see if I can get a handle on the dysphoria without going to medication, and I think that's something you might be interested in as well from the sounds of it. Any kind of gender expression you can think of.
Ultimately you have to ask yourself how healthy are you really without the hormone replacement. As well as the fact that people like Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger have taken anabolic steroids/TRT for decades and they're alive and kicking still. As long as you don't self medicate megadoses of the stuff, you should be fine.
I'm type1 diabetic, so i already have an endocrinologist. I waa already on low dose meds to protect liver and kidney health. I use estradiol patches, which have little riak of clots. I waa on spiro for a week before she doubled my dose. I've had a history of high potassium, so, after a blood test, she put me on Zoladex. The only side effects I've had are positive. Lack of testosterone can be brutal on the body if there is also a lack of estrogen. It's a balance. These aren't vitamins, and they aren't magical pills. But, the question of "aside from the reasons you take them, why do you take them?" sure seems... Strange. To be polite.
--
"You do realize, this means you get to do character creation & the newbie zone all over again? :D"
Quote from: JMJW on July 22, 2017, 05:48:05 AM
Swallowing estrogen pills is the most dangerous way to take it and is something I would never consider as the risk is absolutely unnecessary. Spironolactone is also something that's not for me (dehydration and electrolyte problems potentially, with nausea as a common side effect) neither is Cyproterone acetate (Androcur) on any long term basis. I'd like a supplementary progesterone alongside the estrogen. Could be a low dose, but not estrogen alone.
Those would be my conditions for starting HRT.
I'm a believer in trying everything I can beforehand in order to see if I can get a handle on the dysphoria without going to medication, and I think that's something you might be interested in as well from the sounds of it. Any kind of gender expression you can think of.
Ultimately you have to ask yourself how healthy are you really without the hormone replacement. As well as the fact that people like Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger have taken anabolic steroids/TRT for decades and they're alive and kicking still. As long as you don't self medicate megadoses of the stuff, you should be fine.
Estrogen scare me , I think anti androgens and progestins alone are safer ? Aren't them ?
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 05:25:06 PM
Estrogen scare me , I think anti androgens and progestins alone are safer ? Aren't them ?
Women seem to survive just fine with estrogen.. And no, antiandrogens and progestins alone are no safer..
Well cis women have a high breast cancer mortality + the cons of having feminine organs
But, I wonder if low estrogen is better or I would be suffering from osteoporosis and fats aging ?
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 05:25:06 PM
Estrogen scare me , I think anti androgens and progestins alone are safer ? Aren't them ?
Under treatment with a skilled doctor, HRT is safe. I have had years of estrogen exposure and constantly return great test results when I get a blood test. If anything, some of the anti androgens can be a bit more risky than estrogen. Spiro for example requires sufficient salt and water intake while restricting potassium. Other anti androgens have other issues but as long as you are aware of the problems and follow the doctors orders, HRT has minimal risk.
You should be aware of the changes they will make to your body and be comfortable with time as undoing them isn't always easy but if the changes HRT will provide is what you need, it can be done safely.
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 06:29:18 PM
Well cis women have a high breast cancer mortality + the cons of having feminine organs
But, I wonder if low estrogen is better or I would be suffering from osteoporosis and fats aging ?
92 per 100,000 is not considered a high mortality rate. And no primary sex hormone, whether it's estrogen or testosterone will lead to osteoporosis, never mind the negative mental effects such a situation can cause.
Also, there are cons to male organs, where would you like me to start? Well, there's prostate cancer - which has a very low survival rate. There's a range of testicular issues.. Cancer of the penis. Phimosis.
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 05:25:06 PM
Estrogen scare me , I think anti androgens and progestins alone are safer ? Aren't them ?
Hell no anti androgens alone isn't safer. Without estrogen or testosterone your bones will grow weak and your entire body will age quick.
Anti androgens are more dangerous than naturally occurring hormones at therapeutic doses.
Quote from: kelly_aus on July 22, 2017, 06:57:07 PM
92 per 100,000 is not considered a high mortality rate. And no primary sex hormone, whether it's estrogen or testosterone will lead to osteoporosis, never mind the negative mental effects such a situation can cause.
Also, there are cons to male organs, where would you like me to start? Well, there's prostate cancer - which has a very low survival rate. There's a range of testicular issues.. Cancer of the penis. Phimosis.
Well, stuff like phimosis people are born with , but I see your point there's penile, prostate, testes cancers... but still I can't think of other deadly stuff or painful that are related to hormones , testicular torsion, phimosis, etc doesn't have to do with hormones.
Anyway , is there evidence that mtfs are less likely to have these problems ? Like is there stuff you guys don't have to worry about that cis guys does ?
Quote from: JMJW on July 22, 2017, 07:23:35 PM
Hell no anti androgens alone isn't safer. Without estrogen or testosterone your bones will grow weak and your entire body will age quick.
Anti androgens are more dangerous than naturally occurring hormones at therapeutic doses.
Weren't cis men prescribed AAs for baldness trendy a while ago ? I thought it was safe.
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 22, 2017, 07:33:49 PM
Weren't cis men prescribed AAs for baldness trendy a while ago ? I thought it was safe.
I don't think they took it long term.
It is relatively safe compared to many other drugs, but a synthetic test blocker is not more safe than naturally occuring hormones. If your fears are centered on the estrogen and not on the blocker than your fear is misplaced.
Oh My God, I had no idea they didn't take it longterm and how dangerous it was .
Afaik trans women have a lot less risk of getting breast cancer compared to cis women. I think that's because we don't get periods. I've read in several places(unrelated to trans people) huge fluctuations of estrogen every month is what increases the risk of breast cancer. I don't remember if that's proven or just a hypothesis, maybe research it if you want.
On the other hand your risk of getting prostate cancer gets very low.
As long as you are doing it safely the risks are quite low.
Thx people for adding up information . 😊
Quote from: xFreya on July 23, 2017, 04:04:19 AM
Afaik trans women have a lot less risk of getting breast cancer compared to cis women. I think that's because we don't get periods. I've read in several places(unrelated to trans people) huge fluctuations of estrogen every month is what increases the risk of breast cancer. I don't remember if that's proven or just a hypothesis, maybe research it if you want.
I wonder also if the age of the breast tissue makes a difference. A 60-year-old cis woman has breasts that are 45-50 years old. A trans woman of the same age has breasts that might only be a few years old.
Quote from: KathyLauren on July 23, 2017, 06:31:48 AM
I wonder also if the age of the breast tissue makes a difference. A 60-year-old cis woman has breasts that are 45-50 years old. A trans woman of the same age has breasts that might only be a few years old.
That's exactly what my endocrinologist told me, breast cancer risk is effectively cumulative.
OP, the risks of testosterone vs estrogen are approximately similar. The emotional benefits to me of being on the correct hormonal balance far outweigh all the downsides I know of as well as the larger risks of surgery, which I'm extremely happy to have gone through.
I think the elephant in your room is that the suicide risk to trans people on the wrong hormones for their brains is far higher than the medical risks.
Personally I don't feel the need for a BA, I'm simply ecstatic that hrt has made my breasts more sensitive and having always appreciated smaller breasts in the feminine form I am quite happy with what I've gotten from 18 months on HRT.
Quote from: KathyLauren on July 23, 2017, 06:31:48 AM
I wonder also if the age of the breast tissue makes a difference. A 60-year-old cis woman has breasts that are 45-50 years old. A trans woman of the same age has breasts that might only be a few years old.
Yes that may be a factor too. I think research should be made comparing trans women who transitioned early and cis women, and maybe cis women who can't get periods for whatever reason, considering progesterone use too.
Not to make anyone worry, but, while it's fairly rare, men can get breast cancer, too.
Yeah, bit were not talking about men, we're talking about transitioning amab's
Quote from: Undead Cat on July 27, 2017, 08:40:25 PM
Yeah, bit were not talking about men, we're talking about transitioning amab's
Makes no difference, the risk remains the same - fairly minimal..
Pick someone who started hrt at teenage, compared to a cis biological girl , what's the difference at all ? I can only think on the genitals, the other stuff remain the same, I think even the risk is the same.
Quote from: Autrement on July 22, 2017, 02:59:34 AM
HRT with AA+estrogen has first a diagnosis benefit: it you can stand it after a month or so, or even feel better, it confirms your medical condition of gender dysphoria.
I don't know that any medical professional would endorse the idea that if someone feels better after starting HRT, this means they have gender dysphoria. WPATH makes it clear that gender dysphoria is a precondition for treatment.
People here assign way too much significance to short term changes in mood. Mood may improve or decline for all kinds of reasons over a month or so. If someone started HRT as a bout of depression was gearing up and the person finds themselves struggling a couple months down the line, does this mean their gender dysphoria was imagined?
Rmaddy, I think this is a very interesting debate. Things should not be oversimplified in black or white. Here are a few additional comments from my experience.
1. Yes I got an official GD dysphoria diagnosis made by a well known gender therapist, Anne Vitale (author of a great book, the Gendered Self), she wrote that her diagnosis is based on my reaction on (I quote her) "anti- androgens and cross-sex hormones. It is well known that Gender Dysphoric males taking anti-androgens and cross- sex hormones experience relieve from distress and anxiety confirming the diagnoses. This differs markedly from cisgender males placed on a similar regimen to counter-act an enlarged prostate, find the experience unwelcome and react with newly acquired agitation and restless anxiety."
2. Yes you can still be depressed with HRT, but if you can stand to have your testosterone levels divided by 30 and feel better about it, it confirms the diagnosis.
3. It makes sense to start with a psychological diagnosis before starting HRT, but confirmation by HRT can then happen.