Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The Uninvited Dilemma is a 1991 book based on in-depth interviews with 75 transsexuals, conversations with another 25, and also conversations with loved ones, colleagues, etc.  At one point the author has this to say:

QuoteChapter 9
fabric of mind
THE WARP AND WOOF
Herrica was thirty years old when I interviewed her.  In her mid-twenties she discovered a shocking reality. "I read an article in a pornographic magazine about transsexualism when I was about twenty-six. I had never heard of transsexualism, or Christine Jorgensen before. I went into a state of disattachment with my surroundings, and said to myself, 'Hey! This is what I am!' It literally devastated me for two years. I thought I knew myself so well, this discovery completely destroyed my self-image. I didn't want the problems I could envision, and to be considered weird and perverse. I became very depressed, and ended up quitting my job."
It seems hard to believe, in this day and age, someone could reach the age of twenty-six, yet have no inkling he or she might be a transsexual, particularly someone as bright and as well-educated as Herrica is. When I asked her about this and pointed out that she must have had some feelings in the past which might have made her suspicious, she told me that she did have some feelings and desires at an early age that she might want to be a female; but she just dismissed them, put them in her "Herrica is different " bin and really did not give them further thought.
Although over eighty—five percent of the transsexuals I interviewed had some form of gender discomfort before they ever started school, many of them did not recognize that discomfort as transsexualism until much later in life. Bob told me, "Even though I read about Christine Jorgenson, I didn't really relate it to myself. When I finally did, it felt like my head was taken out of a vise." Edward: "When I did finally find out about transsexualism, it was like finding a missing link, or the musical chord I had been searching for. I was ecstatic to find out I could define myself and do something about my condition. I was walking on air." Kitty: "I knew about transsexualism since I was thirteen or fourteen. I always thought it was shameful. I tried for many years to find a way around it and to fight my feelings. No matter what I did, though (including trying to get in the service), my feelings just didn't change." Karen: "I knew about transsexualism as I was growing up, but wasn't sure it related to me. It took me a couple of years of psychotherapy to discover I was, in fact, a transsexual. I really didn't discover it until I was in my early thirties."

If we could be like the proverbial fly on the wall in the office of a therapist who specializes in treating persons with gender problems, the remarks of Bob, Edward, Kitty, and Karen would become very familiar indeed. Having feelings and recognizing the significance of those feelings do not necessarily go hand in hand. Helping persons sort out their feelings, recognize what those feelings may mean, learning to feel okay about having those feelings without a tremendous burden of guilt, and figuring out ways to cope with their lives within the limitations of their feelings is probably an ideal formula for beneficial therapy. Many transsexuals seek out therapy without having the slightest idea they are transsexuals. They just recognize that all is not well in their lives and are searching for answers.

This matches my experience completely.  I crossdressed a bit as a young teen, until I couldn't fit into my Mom's clothes anymore, and the next 30 years were just life, albeit not exactly conventional - I took up the hobby of playing music in a big way, and never went into any long term relationships.  I remembered dressing up as a youngster but didn't do anything about it - I only had real privacy for about 5 years, and was mortally afraid of ever shopping for women's clothes anyway, a roadblock I only overcame last fall.  Not once did I think there was something askew about my body or gender - I just didn't look into mirrors any more than necessary, had no interest in my personal appearance, actively disliked having my picture taken, preferred the company of women for some reason, crossed my legs and used my hands when I spoke, smiled a lot, dislike macho in any form...but I was just another guy.  I've always been happy, mind; but I always felt something about me just wasn't right.

Now I find myself wanting more than anything to have a feminine body, and to be a woman and recognized as such by society.  Each day I look forward to taking more HRT and hoping breast buds will pop up, spending an inordinate amount of time shaving everywhere, and paying for electrolysis on my face.  I wear women's clothes as much as possible, and fantasize about what life full time would be like.  Absolutely none of this was on my mind a year ago.

Did you spend a lot of your life just being a bit off for some reason, like this?

Sounds awfully familiar.  I told a nun, when asked what I had prayed for, that i asked God to make me a girl.  *THWACK*  I learned quickly as a small child not to express what I was.  I experimented with cross-dressing in my early teens, was caught and run through a form of conversion therapy, testosterone injections and counseling by a local religious leader to avoid my sinful ways.

I had heard of Christine Jorgensen.  I read Vidal's "Myra Breckinridge" which scared the heck out of me with how Myra/Myron ended up.  Nope.  Do Not Want. 

I suppressed until my early 30s, when while interviewing a trans woman for a job on my team, I caught myself thinking "She's so brave.  I wish I could do that."  Outed to myself by my own subconscious, I resolved to keep her locked up to protect my wife and young children.

30 years later, age 62, the dysphoria, anxiety, and depression were so bad I nearly committed suicide.  With the pills counted out and the car engine hacked to send exhaust into the passenger compartment, I called a hotline as a last ditch effort, was talked down, went into therapy, and came here.

Hi Lucy,

  Umm do I raise my hand or what?  I grew up wishing I had been born a girl like my 5 sisters. I umm borrowed their clothes and dressed in them. Throughout  growing up I found ways to obtain girl's clothes to wear. As an adult I was able to work up the courage to buy my own using various excuses to do so. My wife was made aware of proclivity. She tolerated it at best. As you can imagine this behavior caused me much shame and guilt over the years I came to accept my crossdressing as something I could not stop and had to do. But never did I think I was more than a crossdresser. It wasn'y until this last November after coming across the term Gender Dysphoria and researching it that I finally understood why I crossdressed and what I am. With this knowledge I gave into my long held secret desire to become a woman and started HRT in December. That was the easy part. I also of necessity had to begin the process of accepting that I was much more than a crossdresser, I have to accept that I am a transwoman. I have been able to accept it some but it's still a work in progress to shed my male thought processes and attitudes and learn how to be and accept that I am a woman.

Hugs,
   Laurie

Same here ladies.

My situation was a little different. When I was a teenager, I was living in Minnesota in the 1960's. The University of Minnesota was doing transgender research and surgeries. The news media sensationalized the University's work. When I attended U of M, I did a term paper on transgender issues. What I learned from University sources was that the surgery techniques were primitive and the psychological understanding of gender dysphoria was terribly wrong. They said it was caused by learned behavior.

OK, if gender dysphoria is learned, then I can tough it out and unlearn my feelings that I had for years.

WRONG

My feelings never went away. Now, 50 years later with a lifetime of conflicted feelings and other physical health problems, I decided to take control of my life and address my health issues one at a time.

So, here I am at age 67, fully transitioned and I have never been more happy and completely satisfied with my life. My only regret is not transitioning sooner, but that is another story.

I've read a story much like Michelle's, about a person's chance encounter with a TS that stopped them in their tracks.  Others have commented on how many CD's accounts of what they do and how they feel sound completely TS; Deidre McCloskey is one example of someone who thought of themselves purely as a crossdresser for decades, until they met some CDs in the flesh and realized she didn't have much in common with them beyond clothing and makeup.  She describes all this in her book Crossing.

Herrica from my excerpt is just me.  I wonder how many people like us are out there who just carry on having absolutely no idea what's up.  I keep wondering what this transsexual impulse has replaced, too.  Nothing?  A bunch of inhibitions?

Yup.

Except there were some noticeable cracks of light into the darkness of my closet.

When I was in my 20s I was always thinking how much better and easier dating would be if I were the girl instead of the guy.
When I watched The Crying Game in the early 90s, seeing a positive portrayal of a beautiful transgender woman on the screen for the first time ever, and thinking all the next day that this is what I want and need to do.
When the internet was invented and I started cross dressing again, hanging out at Tgirl sites, and dreaming of taking female hormones.
When when I smoked pot for a couple of months, 2 years before I came out and started my first attempts at learning femme voice.

Denial is a very powerful thing.

My story is strange. Everything about my life has been strange and dysfunctional non-stop. I don't understand too many things and it got so bad that I have almost no contact now with family. So much untreated bi-polar, mental illness, alcohol, drugs, illicit sex and all around bad behavior. Yet, I am the white sheep of the family. I never drank, did drugs, misbehaved, etc. but I know if I ever did "come out" I would instantly be that bad one. Simply because my "condition" will be the least understood. Crazy...

I grew up a soft little blond boy in a prison of crazy dark, bulked-up he-men. I NEVER fit in. Ever. I seriously tried. Never succeeded. Hell growing up. How I survived, I don't know. And I never did much crossdressing till I left home. Got married to a crazy girl (I knew no other kind) and made several futile attempts to grow long hair, shave my legs, etc. In a hard, crazy Baptist atmosphere it was impossible. Divorced after 10 yrs and then...my female mind took over. All makes sense now. Always a struggle to get here. And now I am closeted after 15 mo HRT and always will be. New big breasts must now be hidden all day. A new kind of stress. I live with it. Facts of my life....

I am still in my early 20s. However, for a very long long time i supressed any female feelings or anything feminine. Denial is  a strong thing, and can even come up at the worst of times. I didnt know i had dysphoria even when i did many years ago. I knew i wasnt happy with being male, but didnt realize that made me trans. I was in such denial for, well, all my life

Hi Lucy :)

I never really thought about how I should be my whole life as I never fit in... I wasn't really one of the guys but I wasn't a girl either.  As long as I can remember I always preferred to be friends with girls over boys and became distressed later in grade school when the girls would generally not associate with boys because boys were gross and such and I remember thinking I wished I was a girl and hated being a boy.  As I got older and became attracted to girls I followed the gender role that matched my sex but always looked at girls and thought it would be incredible to be a girl and wished I had their body and their life but always just chocked it up to my sexual attraction. I never really tried to cross-dress as I just haven't really had the opportunity but I do look at the clothes a lot.

It never dawned on me that something could be wrong I just kept moving forward in life in that same old gender/sexual role, I joined the Navy and got married and over the years I even had children.  But deep down I wasn't happy and after I retired I just let myself go... my weight shot up over 100 pounds (and I was heavy to begin with) I quit caring how I dressed or what people thought about me and then about 4 years ago I found out I was Diabetic and just decided I really didn't care if I lived or died.  I never really felt I needed to make a suicide plan but I was actively trying to kill myself with my lack of effort to take care of myself.

Like you I hate seeing myself either in mirrors or pictures and have gone so far as to destroy just about every picture of me that was ever been taken because I hate seeing me that much.  Everyone thinks I'm just this happy guy and in some ways they are right I usually take a positive approach to everything and I smile and joke around all the time but when I see women I feel like I'm missing out on something that could be so much greater something I should have had in the first place. 

A couple years ago I heard about how transgender people could take hormones and have sex changes and it was like a door opened I wanted to know more and soon I wanted to do it... now I think about it every day and every time I see a woman I think that could be me.  There is so much to overcome... my wife hates transwomen, what would coming to do to my kid, I would probably lose my marriage, I would probably lose my job, I will have to start over in life, I have to get my health under control... ok that last one sound easy compared to the rest.

I'm pre-everything and have a lot to overcome before I can get there but it has given me something to work towards and compelled me to make a plan and start working on getting my life in order and to prepare myself for all the worst outcomes in hopes of getting the best outcome.

Yeah, like Emily I never really had a clue to connect the dots between how I felt overall every day, and my mostly repressed ideas of my real gender identity.  I didn't even have these terms available to me.

I honestly thought everyone had that persistent flat effect, living a life of, well, watching paint dry, punctuated by sadness, anxiety, and the occasional inexplicable panic or outburst.  I just thought I was worse at living than most, weaker than most. 

Now that I've gotten treatment, and have discovered that the amazing euphoria I felt after I had been on HRT a while wasn't really euphoria, just feeling like everyone else feels, I have realized that I spent almost a half century living with every deepening depression and anxiety linked to my suppressed gender identity and dysphoria.

Sometimes I feel like I was such a fool, putting my trying to avoid making others uncomfortable ahead of my own well-being.  I still led a pretty good life, raised a nice family, and accomplished much. We can't change that past, though.

All we can really do is pick the best path forward from the present, trying to improve ourselves and the world as we are to what we will be.

Took me 40 years or so to figure it out.  I did the dreaming, fantasizing, and wishing to be a woman bit on and off for years.  Finally gave in, and I'm glad I did, I'm now a much better person than who I was.

I was about 4 or 5. I'm 59 now. I've gone through phases of suppressing it since at the time there wasn't anything I could do about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So now for a different view...

None of this made any sense to me or had any sort of a label or even words to describe. I just grew up this way and turned out to be a girl. I was very atypical in all aspects but never gave much thought about what it could all mean. I had been taken to many doctors because I was so outwardly different and was having social problems because of it but that usually just ended up with my folks being told I was "probably gay". This doctor part started in 1965 when I was ten years old.

I never thought I was gay and as I got older, wasn't really interested in boys or girls but I knew something was "wrong with me" because I wasn't the least bit anything like other boys and had always seen myself through the perspective of being a girl. Even at 15 when I came out to my mother for the first time since I was very young and had all the things I was trying then say suppressed, neither I nor my folks still knew what was going on. During one of her supportive "it's okay if you are gay" talks, I flatly said "I am not gay, I'm a girl and always have been and always will be".

Her reply was something like "we've always known who you were and were just waiting for you to say it". WTF? We, or at least I still didn't understand or know what I was or what I had to do or what any of this meant. Sure, I and everybody knew who Christine Jorgensen was but I didn't grasp the similarity to my situation. To me, she was just some famous guy that was in the Army and had a sex change and I just grew up being a girl. I couldn't see how she applied to my life  as I unconsciously and progressively moved beyond the middle of androgyny all the while becoming more horrified at the thought of being any more physically masculine.

By the time I was 16, strangers were gendering me as a female which made going to school as some kind of alien boy freak morbidly distressing as well as dangerous. Much due to my parents hard work, they found a specialist they wanted to take me to and it wasn't until then when I was 17 that transsexual entered the conversation for the first time. Okay, I guess if that's what I had to be to get things sorted out,then that's what I was? I started hormones in the summer of 1972 before my senior year of high school. Although there was little perceptual difference or much change involved, I completed officially transitioning immediately after I graduated.

To be honest, I've still never figured this out nor do I really care to or give it an explanation or label. If the point of this thread is to talk about suppressed feelings and denial and then some sort of awakening, I never had that opportunity or that burden.

I am another one for whom the story is eerily familiar.  All my life, I felt I didn't fit in.  I wanted to be a girl when I was as young as  seven years old.  I cross-dressed in my mother's clothes in my early teens.  I always felt an attraction to the feminine and asked my mother to teach me to bake and to knit.  I dreamed about being a woman.

And yet, I never connected the dots for a long time.  I even wondered if I was a transsexual (the word transgender wasn't in circulation back then) and talked myself out of it.  I didn't really want to be a woman, I just thought I did!   ::)  It is hard, in hindsight, to believe the power of my denial.

Finally, at age 60, I encountered a transgender person in real life, not making a big splash or drawing attention to herself or being hassled, just getting on with her life with a bit of dignity and class.  That led me to google up Susan's Place, and here I am, two years later.

Lisa, I think your story really supports the idea of the gender spectrum.  I went to an all boys Catholic High School starting in 1972 and there were 2 boys in particular out of a freshman class of about 500 who were obviously very different in terms of being very, very feminine and unable to hide it.  One boy had a pretty hard time. The other was kind of protected by his friends.  I remember once seeing him at the college swimming pool on the campus we shared with the college.  He was wearing a woman's 2 piece swimming suit, without the bra top.  I remember thinking at the time, "How the heck is he getting away with this?" I was quite shocked.  My experience of Catholic school was more like a Lord of the Flies kind of scenario.  I think his parents probably made all the difference for him.

My mom never created a safe space to come out to her.  She was always threatening me with sending me to military school and telling me to be a man-boy.  She hated sissies.  She totally abandoned me when I came out to her as gay when I was 36.

Any kind of story is welcome, Lisa.  I'm specifically fascinated by ones about how people can just have no inkling of exactly what's bothering them until they stumble across the concept of transexuality, you match up with that for sure, albeit from the opposite perspective of the rest of us, I think.  That you couldn't relate to Jorgeson is quite something, that you were so certain of your gender identity that the simple fact of how you were assigned at birth had no bearing on it is remarkable.

I had a bit of a shock in the last few days with a pinched nerve in my shoulder freaking me out with pseudo stroke symptoms - turns out it's nothing of the sort.  Had happened before, too.  Took me mind off dysphoria for a bit, but now I once again am repelled by all this body hair.  That was quick...

Despite cross dressing (in private) since I was 15, it took until I was around 30 to realize it. It still took me another 12 years of fear & depression to actually do something about it. I think one of the biggest reasons it didn't click, despite the cross dressing, was a subconscious distrust of women due to the childhood trauma of my mother trying to kill me (and my sister) at age 11.
One of the things that made me realize the truth was in fact working with a transgender woman. She didn't pass very well, so everyone in the office knew. They were polite to her in person, but made jokes behind her back. Seeing that treatment is one of the reasons why I was scared to transition.

When I was about 5 me and my friend Greg and my sister Kelly were playing in the back yard. It was summer, a hot day. Greg said it's hot lets take off our shirts! His came right off, kellys came right off and Greg hollered, girls cant take their shirts off! Mine was slow coming off, and when he said that mine came off but went right back on. that when I knew I was a girl to. Having a sister help me so much, I could play with her toys and hang around her friends. But I hit that stage where that didn't work anymore. What really did me in was an argument my parents had one night when I was 7. It was the worst one they ever had[and they had bad ones, cops and all].It was so traumatic I had PTSD. 'If that's adults are like don't want to grow up'. In a lot of ways I didn't. I didn't know what PTSD was until the 80's and the Viet-Nam vets were allover T.V. I had heard about Transsexuals and sex changes, but was in survival mode. So no transition for me.                                                                                                                                           There's something that nobody says that I think a lot of do that we don't realize or recognize. Most CIS gender women have an empathy for others, willing to put others first. And I think we do that to, we are women at heart! We know what we need to do, but we don't. Because we know how much it will hurt others we delay, and then it turns into years and denial and then decades. You try to be all the man you can. Then you hit the wall. I had put my dream in a box and buried it in my  soul.                                                                                                                                                                      Now 40 yrs. later a near death medical event dug up my dream, I hit the wall. My medical event killed my testicles, and without them I cant sustain my false manliness any longer. So now I'm transitioning whether I like it or not. I'm built female except for the obvious parts so being a 'man' has always been hard. Now I have to be me, and I've never been happier! Scared but HAPPY! What I'm getting at is a lot of us know when we're young that we're different, sometimes we even know we are girls. But we don't know what to do or which to go, or we just need someone to tell us that our S.O.'s will be OK, 'they'll live', do what you need to do. Sometimes look back and dream about that nurse or [Shhh... housewife!] that I wanted to be. So when you run across that "girly-boy" or somebody that's questioning, give them that nudge in the right direction, you just might save their life.

Quote from: Janes Groove on July 31, 2017, 11:28:39 AM
Lisa, I think your story really supports the idea of the gender spectrum.

I'm not sure I know what you mean and am probably misunderstanding? When I think of the spectrum of gender beyond the binary, it brings to mind those that fall in between the two extremes. I never learned how to boy or be masculine. Oh, no doubt I knew what the rules were as unquestionably I was reminded of them sometimes violently but they just never applied to me or fit who I was.

Quote from: Lucy Ross on July 31, 2017, 05:44:51 PM
Any kind of story is welcome, Lisa.  I'm specifically fascinated by ones about how people can just have no inkling of exactly what's bothering them until they stumble across the concept of transexuality, you match up with that for sure, albeit from the opposite perspective of the rest of us, I think.  That you couldn't relate to Jorgeson is quite something, that you were so certain of your gender identity that the simple fact of how you were assigned at birth had no bearing on it is remarkable.

There were a lot of things I didn't understand as a kid. I knew I was supposed to be a boy and act like one but none of that ever clicked with me and it was confusing because that's not what I felt myself to be. I had no real concept of a gender identity but just knew I was more like girls than I was any boy and this was something that just came through in my personality, manner, friends and play as something apparent to everyone. There was no hiding or pretending and this came with repercussions throughout my childhood and early adolescence . The feelings I had didn't bother me. I was just me and have been just me my entire life. It was the feedback I got from the rest of the world for being me that was problematic.

Who I am became less of an issue for me socially after I got out of high school and was able to drop the imposed constraints of and false pretense of even being a boy but I was so bad at it anyway that living completely as a girl was the only thing that made sense. Even my parents thought so and this was in 1973 when such things were practically unheard of so there must have been some pretty strong evidence for them to be convinced I was on the right path. There wasn't really any sort of decision about this or great OMG moment of revelation about what I was or what it was called, it's just who I grew up to be. It sounds pretty ludicrous when I think about it but since I've lived my entire adult life as a woman from the time I was a teenager, I don't think about it that much unless I'm browsing through and posting on these forums.

In recent years with all the media attention and awareness, it's kind of hard to ignore that all this trans business is a part of my history too even though I've never been a part of the trans community and as strange as it sounds, this is all kind of new to me

Reading back through this thread is painful and unsettling as it is insightful in several different ways. First the obvious: The years of denial and suppression of that voice clawing at the back of your mind and the resulting turmoil and chaos when the beast finally finds its way out is heartbreaking but yet those with stories of survival and resolution are inspiring. Then next comes my own feelings about how the commonalities and shared experiences that creates a bond between you all is one of the things that makes me feel othered or like somewhat of an outsider.

Emotionally, I can empathize as I've had my own share of trials and tribulations from being this way but I simply have a hard time imagining what a complete and total flustercluck dealing with this later in life must be. I don't think I would have ever had the strength to do what some of you go through or been up to the challenges of potentially losing so much and making such drastic changes.

What is it about people with lives like mine that makes us different? It has to be more than just a compassionate and understanding family environment , doesn't it? I don't think my life would have been any different than it was if I was from the wrong family and had I not had the opportunities that I did, I know I would have died rather than grow up to be a man.  Is this just weakness or is it something else? Is there no difference other than a matter of timing?

These are the kinds of things I wonder about now.

As I understand it. The spectrum includes the 2 extremes.

I wanted to be like my sister so bad that when I was 10 (1964) I asked my mother if she could start calling me Michelle, she was very sweet about it but basically said "don't be silly" so I just stayed hiding in Boy mode forever, our small farming town had zero awareness and even I didn't understand what was going on.
As I grew up I always had more female than male friends as I just seemed to fit into their friend circles better, can't tell you how many times I heard "you're not like the other guys, you understand girls"

Of course things are better now and I still don't have male friends to run around with...doesn't bother me ar all really.

I worked out who and what I was at 12 - thanks Carlotta. But it was 1987 and there was no way I was coming out then.

I spent most of high school trying to fit in and failing miserably. In the last 2 years of HS I just kind of gave up trying to fit in and started being a little more me.. I came out as a gay guy (lol) and lived as a femme gay guy until I was 35 and could no longer lie to the world about who I was.

One of the thing I find interesting/odd is that many of us who are classed as "late transitioners" are often assumed to have had no clue about ourselves, which often isn't the truth.

Hi Kelly,

The party line from my reading of books/websites would be that late transitioners' dysphoria isn't so severe that they can't attempt to cope or overcome their transgender impulses.  I've rarely come across accounts of people who never considered themselves TS but turned out to be so later on, which was why I started this thread.

I have seen a few big threads here wondering why people delay transitioning at all, I'd imagine mostly started up by younger people who don't realize how difficult it was to learn about transgender issues until very recently, never mind do anything about it.  Is that who you had in mind?

Quote from: Lucy Ross on August 02, 2017, 09:04:53 PM
Hi Kelly,

The party line from my reading of books/websites would be that late transitioners' dysphoria isn't so severe that they can't attempt to cope or overcome their transgender impulses.  I've rarely come across accounts of people who never considered themselves TS but turned out to be so later on, which was why I started this thread.

I delayed transition until I was no longer able to - I'd also reached a point in life where I had no real reasons not to.  There are a not insignificant number of us who transition only as an alternative to suicide.

QuoteI have seen a few big threads here wondering why people delay transitioning at all, I'd imagine mostly started up by younger people who don't realize how difficult it was to learn about transgender issues until very recently, never mind do anything about it.  Is that who you had in mind?

The only reason I had any clue about trans people in 1987 was due to a colourful Australian trans woman named Carlotta (Carol Spencer) and while she was a popular person back then, it wasn't the era to be a trans kid. School would have been hell.. Society would have been hell.

QuoteI delayed transition until I was no longer able to - I'd also reached a point in life where I had no real reasons not to.  There are a not insignificant number of us who transition only as an alternative to suicide.

This 😢

I've read a lot of the TG publications of the 80s/90s - Tapestry, Ladylike, etc.  The wholly arbitrary ways people would find out about things is remarkable.

Many had real eye openers by happening across these publications, too.  Later BBS systems bridged gaps, or 1-900 numbers - telephone chat services. 

I was a teen in the late 80s, very much on my own in a not exactly liberal town.  Just dressing a bit androgynous and the macho kids would have pummeled you into a hospital room, I bet.

Quote from: Lucy Ross on August 02, 2017, 09:04:53 PM
I have seen a few big threads here wondering why people delay transitioning at all, I'd imagine mostly started up by younger people who don't realize how difficult it was to learn about transgender issues until very recently, never mind do anything about it.

Okay, I get it that I am an anomaly and somewhat of an outlier but I can't say I'm completely on board with this statement. I had no knowledge or information about any of this and had no clue what I was doing or where I was going when I crossed the line between boy and girl. It was just some sort of organic progression and I did end up in hospital and out of school for nearly a month for simply existing when I was 15 in what was very much a hate crime. Contrary to popular opinion, care and information was available if one was dedicated to finding it. I started hormones in 1972 as a seventeen year old and was able to have SRS in 1977. It gets me when people think this was impossible or didn't happen in the past.

Granted, things are a lot easier today than they were but I have to take the claims that people didn't know about this or that it was just too hard in the 80's and 90's with a grain of salt.

Quote from: Lisa_K on August 03, 2017, 02:30:54 AM
Okay, I get it that I am an anomaly and somewhat of an outlier but I can't say I'm completely on board with this statement. I had no knowledge or information about any of this and had no clue what I was doing or where I was going when I crossed the line between boy and girl. It was just some sort of organic progression and I did end up in hospital and out of school for nearly a month for simply existing when I was 15 in what was very much a hate crime. Contrary to popular opinion, care and information was available if one was dedicated to finding it. I started hormones in 1972 as a seventeen year old and was able to have SRS in 1977. It gets me when people think this was impossible or didn't happen in the past.

Granted, things are a lot easier today than they were but I have to take the claims that people didn't know about this or that it was just too hard in the 80's and 90's with a grain of salt.

I am a bit similar, but different, if that makes sense. Yes, I grew up a complete anomaly in my family simply because of my "strange" body shape and manner of thinking and seeing the world. I simply could never understand anything that was happening around me or to me. Unfortunately I had a father who was terribly embarrassed by his girly boy and was determined to "make a man out of him -- even if it killed him." I was forced to keep my hair very, very short and military-like throughout my youth and to wear very baggy clothes to hide my slender, girly shape. He worked very hard to change my attitude, manners and personality, if that makes sense.

For some odd genetic reason, my legs were/are very long in proportion to my whole body which gave me a really "leggy" and feminine stature. The unwanted nicknames and insults never stopped. You can guess. I did have low-grade hate crimes (of a sort) committed against me in school which I never understood. With my short scrubby hair and long legs I NEVER fit in any group. I guess I never got over the experience. I no longer talk to many family members who seemed to enjoy the torture those long years ago. Now as an older adult I look back and wonder with the same questions. Could I have found help with my situation? A counselor? A teacher? Certainly not in my cultic, hateful church.

After my divorce, I started wearing skinny jeans and colorful shirts and letting my hair grow a bit which angered my father (and church "friends"). I quit giving damns around this time and left the church. Now I am "going to hell" and everyone is "praying for me." Soon enough my father died and I felt free. Now after HRT, my appearance is markedly more feminine, so I guess he failed to make me a man. But I feel so much more whole, and calm. What the future holds I can't say. So many of my relatives and old friends have not seen me in years, so what they might think of me now.......I don't care any more.....

I guess I gave up trying to figure out life. It just never seemed to work for me. I am mentally much tougher now. I do have a small number of friends who accept me. That's good. I am thankful for that and a few other things. There are things to be thankful for....

I did not realize that I was TS.. Growing up I felt like I did not fit and i was a little shy and I never really had friends. In my teenage years I experimented with cross dressing, i would wear pantyhose and later a little skirt in private.. I never connected the two until much later.

I began cross dressing seriously at the age of 19, that means dressing fully up, including breast forms, makeup etc. Then I embraced my girly side, I just wanted to improve my girl self.. I grew my hair (I did not want to wear a wig), I started shaving my legs, got my ears pierced.. When I embraced the girl inside me, everything changed, the shy boy became an outgoing woman that fitted in and actually had friends. I was finally me.. so therapy quickly determined HRT was the best cause for me. Now almost 10 years later... I am a well adjusted woman, with a close circle of friends, who just loves life.

I'm another one. 

Short summary of the story... 

I didn't really have any perception of a problem as a young child until getting to about 2nd grade.  As soon as I was immersed in the usual playground culture, I realized I had far greater affinity for and personality similarity to the girls.  Moreover, I was not particularly athletic and had no interest in competition or sports.  To my advantage given this situation, I was substantially physically larger and taller than my peers so I was able to avoid the taunting if not outright abuse that  is common in this setting.  Around this time, I began to realize my interest in things feminine and female clothing.  Like many, I discovered that the clothing of the opposite sex was really nice, prettier and more fun than boy clothing leading to a lifelong cycle of secretive. cross
dressing. 

Puberty was difficult and I did not date much until college.  In college my one intense relationship was with a wonderful woman whom in retrospect I am fairly certain was a yet to be self
discovered lesbian while I was a yet to be self discovered MTF TG.  Northern of us reallynew why but there was ever increasing strife between us and we separated not to ever speak again.  I wonder if she ever figured out the nature of the problem. 

I went on to graduate education, met my wife of over 30 years, had 2 kids, lived the standard cis heterosexual family life.  Through this, the cross dressing was intermittent but persisted through the years.  Since college, I've been wearing bikini style Jockey  "man parties" but over the past few years quietly switched to the nearly identical womens' version of the same style, unnoticed by my wife.  I've gradually tended to use several generally thought of as womens' cosmetic items but again below the threshold of being obvious. I don't dress androgenously but have no problem wearing pink and pastel colors. 

The cross dressing has persisted and over the last 3 years or so went into an accelerated phase of frequent episodes when my wife was been out of town on business or family duties.  Surprisingly, I did not really consciously consider that I might be TG despite all this history and in retrospect obvious signs and overt evidence.  I found myself reading everything I could about cross dressing and transgender phenomena in an attempt to convince myself this was just some odd fetish.  I found it rapidly more and more difficult to deny that this was not a fetish, that I had all the features of what Anne Virale, author of "The Gendered Self" describes as a "group 3" TG .  In fact, the example she offers in the book could almost literally describe me.  I was shocked; frantic I search for and found a very competent therapist who has helped me immensely. 

I started therapy just under a year ago at age 59.  Also, I joined Susans.org almost one year ago to the day. 

Am l TG?  Yes.  How long did it take me to figure it all out given decades of denial and rationalization? Nearly 60 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Lisa_K on August 01, 2017, 05:49:57 PM

Emotionally, I can empathize as I've had my own share of trials and tribulations from being this way but I simply have a hard time imagining what a complete and total flustercluck dealing with this later in life must be.

It certainly can be that.  I do envy the extent to which you have never seemed to have to figure out your gender identity, but I think we are all variants of the same thing, whether that thing is defined so narrowly as "transwomen" or as broadly as "human".

You mentioned that," I've rarely come across accounts of people who never considered themselves TS but turned out to be so later on". Well, I guess that I fall into that realm of rarity. While I never really fit into either gender, I just thought that it was me being a broken person. I had always prided myself of being observant and critically knowledgeable of the world around me (became an engineer for my career), I never had a clue about why I never fit in. I just became very good at coping and surviving. There was never a trace of cross dressing experimentation or any awareness of gender disconnect until a random playtime experience with my wife of 33 years when I was 67.......and the lights came on. All those days of surviving turned into actual joy. Since that day it has been a steady and fairly rapid pursuit of becoming fully me. GCS is 27 days out.

I knew I had been born wrong when I was 4. When I was old enough to know what transgender was and that they could do surgery to fix it I knew I wanted it. I never even tried to act male. That's beyond my ability and I would have totally failed at it even if I had tried.
Julia

Quote from: Julia1996 on August 16, 2017, 01:21:44 PM
I knew I had been born wrong when I was 4. When I was old enough to know what transgender was and that they could do surgery to fix it I knew I wanted it. I never even tried to act male. That's beyond my ability and I would have totally failed at it even if I had tried.
Julia

Some of this might be generational.  "Back in my day" (Oh God, I said it), one could reliably expect to be beat up or worse for crossing the boundaries of gender.  Today, not so much.

Quote from: rmaddy on August 16, 2017, 03:22:35 PM
Some of this might be generational.  "Back in my day" (Oh God, I said it), one could reliably expect to be beat up or worse for crossing the boundaries of gender.  Today, not so much.

Uhm, this sounds more like denial. Julia is like 19, right? I am 20. I was beaten up as a kid. I didn't try to hide my femininity, it's just who I am. How can onde hide natural mannerisms to the point of no one ever have a clue you're different and proceed to live as an adult male. Even if I tried, I wouldn't be able to do "convincingly".

Quote from: rmaddy on August 16, 2017, 03:22:35 PM
Some of this might be generational.  "Back in my day" (Oh God, I said it), one could reliably expect to be beat up or worse for crossing the boundaries of gender.  Today, not so much.

I know. I've heard how boys who were "different" were treated in the 50s-90s. Way back in the 50s and 60s I heard that you could get arrested for wearing women's clothes or even be thrown in the nut house. That's so sad and so messed up!  I'm very thankful my family was accepting and never tried to force male behavior on me. Life would have been quite horrible for me if they had.
Julia

Quote from: rmaddy on August 16, 2017, 03:22:35 PM
Some of this might be generational.  "Back in my day" (Oh God, I said it), one could reliably expect to be beat up or worse for crossing the boundaries of gender.

I can personally attest to the fact that this was all too true. "Back in my day" for me started in 1960 when kindergarten came as a very rude awakening. Seen as gender atypical from the very start, being mocked, ridiculed, ostracized and physically bullied seemed like just a natural part of life and these things only became more prevalent and more serious as I got older to the point I was nearly killed in high school.

I had no real concept of "crossing the boundaries of gender" except by the negative and hostile feedback received from others. I didn't really get it. I was just was who I was and didn't really understand why it was such a big deal to the other kids in school. My parents made suggestions of things I could do to try and fit in better but I was incapable of faking it and not just being myself and the way I naturally was. I was shuffled from school to school and from therapist to therapist trying to help with the social problems that seemed to follow me wherever I went. I didn't have any problems being me, who else could I have been but others certainly did. Alluding to my earlier post, the notion that trans kids didn't exist "back in the day" or that we all hid until we got older is simply not true. Granted, we suffered the consequences of the ignorance of the day but for some of us, there was no other choice.

Quote from: Aurorasky on August 16, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
Uhm, this sounds more like denial. Julia is like 19, right? I am 20. I was beaten up as a kid. I didn't try to hide my femininity, it's just who I am. How can one hide natural mannerisms to the point of no one ever have a clue you're different and proceed to live as an adult male. Even if I tried, I wouldn't be able to do "convincingly".

Let's face it, some of us are different from birth and we seem to be in the minority in places like this. Like Julia and Aurora, I couldn't and never did hide who I was. How could I? Why should I have had to and even if I could have, no one that knew me would have bought it anyway. All I can say is thank goodness that my folks were intuitive and perceptive enough to let me be who I was and did everything they could to help and support me in an era when such things were completely unheard of.

I agree with Lisa. I think for some of us it's more like a biological force rather than just a desire or longing. My dad was not all surprised to find out I was trans. In fact he outed me rather than me coming out. He just asked me if I wanted to be a girl. He said it was ok if I did but that I needed to get started and get it out of the way. My older brother wasn't surprised either. My dad told me even when I was very young I was very feminine.  He said at first he did try to "correct" me and would tell me boys didn't do this or boys didn't do that. He said not only would I not listen to him but that after he said something like that I would totally ignore him and not speak to him for a while after. He said he just gave up. My grandpa was a lot more vocal about my feminine behavior and telling me to act like a boy. Because of that I couldn't stand him and wanted absolutely nothing to do with him. My grandma and my other set of grandparents were fine with me so I liked them. At the holidays and family get togethers I totally ignored my one grandpa. His presents were always very "boy" things and my dad said I would put them in the trash can. And once my grandparents gave me this Christmas suit when I was 6. It was a little boys suit for sure. I threw it in the fireplace, and yes there was a fire going. I didn't find out until years later that the way I acted towards my grandpa really hurt him. My dad told him why I didn't like him and to stop it. I guess he listened because I really don't remember not liking him. I do know when I was older that I got spiteful and mean if someone criticized me for being feminine or tried to tell me I should act like a boy. I would make sure to be even more feminine just out of spite.

I would pitch such a fit when my dad took me to get my hair cut that he gave up when I was about 8 years old. I also had a fit if someone tried to dress me in boy clothes.  I would only wear clothes that could be for either a boy or girl and in colors I liked. Everyone knew to only give me gender neutral gifts for Christmas and my birthday. My childhood was full of stuff like that. I have never been able to relate to male behavior or activities. I am very lucky to have a accepting family. But even so it was not easy growing up. I have albinism and I was very small for a boy so I already had 2 strikes against me. From the time I started middle school all the way to the end of high school I was the school "->-bleeped-<-". I was teased and called all kinds of ugly names. I was never actually beaten thank god but I was assaulted.  I was tripped and constantly having my books knocked out of my arms.  I had a boy tell me I was the size of a Smurf so I should look like one and he threw a cup of blue food color in my face. And once I had 2 boys hold me down and spray something like liquid plastic in my hair which was like wax when it dried. My dad had to cut it out along with all my hair. And twice I had boys pull down my pants. Once to see if I really had a dick and once to see if my pubes were as white as my hair.

I was actually a very mean person at that time. I was extremely jealous of not just girls, but pretty much everyone because they were normal. Even my own brother. I still feel bad about how mean I was to him at times. My brother is very loving and accepting of me but I was jealous that he had normal skin and eyecolor and because he was cis and was popular and had lots of friends. I think a lot of us get jealous of cis people at times.

I had planned for transition like a year before I did it. I was afraid my dad might throw me out for being trans. It seems silly now but I didn't know what would happen. My dad is a exmarine and now a cop. Not the type of guy you would think would be accepting of this. So I took cosmetology while I was still in high school. I wanted to be able to support myself in case things with my family did go bad. Plus transitioning wouldn't be much of an issue in that industry.

Yes my transition was easier than it is for some people but even when you transition young it's still hard and painful emotionally.  For me there was no choice but to transition. I have never known how to be male. If I had been born in like the 60s I would have found a way to transition because that's all I could do except for suicide. For some of us I think transitioning young is the only choice.
Julia

Yeah, not until I was about 34. I knew something was up but I had never been exposed to transgender things before, or cared to look into it - I had no frame of reference. To be honest, I used to think it was all a joke.

The penny dropped when I started cross dressing compulsively after work - then on my doc's insistence - began to talk things through with therapists. A lot of other people spotted me long before I did!

Yeah....there were signs when I was little.  It wasn't very well known at the time.  I have pictures of me, in positions that are more often associated with little girls.  My mom told me about my potty training and my absolute refusal to stand.  I carried my school books like the girls did for a long time.  For me, I repressed all of this, and tried to be the boy I was told I was.  Then I never told anyone my thoughts, and dreams.  I just tried to fit in, well as much as an introverted bookworm gamer geek can fit in. 

Quote from: Aurorasky on August 16, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
Uhm, this sounds more like denial. Julia is like 19, right? I am 20. I was beaten up as a kid. I didn't try to hide my femininity, it's just who I am. How can onde hide natural mannerisms to the point of no one ever have a clue you're different and proceed to live as an adult male. Even if I tried, I wouldn't be able to do "convincingly".

There does seem to be a cohort of transgender folk whose identity is solid from a very young age.  There are also those of us for which it has been a work in progress.  At the end of the day, we're both trans, and we have to figure out how to deal.

Quote from: rmaddy on August 16, 2017, 11:30:26 PM
There does seem to be a cohort of transgender folk whose identity is solid from a very young age.  There are also those of us for which it has been a work in progress.  At the end of the day, we're both trans, and we have to figure out how to deal.

True to some degree but those of us that were never seen as "normal" boys, transitioned as teenagers and have never lived as or had lives as men have a very different experience. Dealing with this as a kid living under their parent's roof and rules and having their support is something else that makes a huge difference.

Yes, we're all trans but most of the folks here are worlds apart from my experience to the extent it is very difficult to to even marginally relate. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in the stories of others but I just don't get it. Perhaps it is my own shortcoming for failing to understand how someone can live half their life before dealing with this when it was something so fundamental and crucial to even my continued existence that I would have never made it much beyond 15 without getting straightened out.

Quote from: Lisa_K on August 17, 2017, 12:14:56 AM
Yes, we're all trans but most of the folks here are worlds apart from my experience to the extent it is very difficult to to even marginally relate. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in the stories of others but I just don't get it.

Coming from the other side of the tracks, I find it hard to understand how somebody can 'know' who they are at age 4,5 or 6 ... when we are just taking our first steps into self-discovery!

The question of identity was a long journey for me and it is ongoing. I don't regret how long it took - all of my life experience gave me the strength of character I needed to push through transition without caring about the opinions of strangers. All in all it has been a smooth ride ... because I was emotionally prepared.

It's one of those things we will have to agree to disagree about. What does it mean to truly know something ... what standard is acceptable for us? It's very personal!

Lisa_K, maybe you're just braver than some. Maybe the circumstances around you made it easier, there was someone you could count on, like a mom or aunt. It's hard to say. For myself, an early transition was not an option at home. I got beat by my dad once for putting on my sister's panties when I was about 5. It wasn't just a spanking, it was "vindictive". Beat the ->-bleeped-<- out of me I guess.

That led to the repression and the ever present task of trying to be a man. The entire way to now was filled with signs of ->-bleeped-<-. Yet, living the macho life, it was a lot of, "I can't, the sergeant will suspect", "I can't, the other bikers will know". So for myself, I ran headlong into manhood and it became a self-sustaining trap. God, I wish I was like you, young now, living in a home where it could be okay, where I could cry in my mom's lap and she'd help me be happy. 

Wow, just re-read that. Sounds kinda dismal.

Well, I am sure this topic can be triggering. One thing I don't like about ts community is how many are always trying to blame others and the circumstances for their own problems and shortcomings. I can understand that's hard to be this way, but if you stay in a victim's role, you won't ever be fulfilled or happy. And blaming society saying how bad it is or it was isn't doing us any favors, it just makes society hate us even more. I see it everywhere in trans blogs and writings.

Fact is there's always goingvto be bad, rotten people who will make fun of you regardless. Then there's going to be people who are ignorant about this, who may or not be open to learning about us. Finally, there are good people will accept regardless of how well they understand. It's for these people that it's worth striving for our path. If you didn't transition younger but wanted to, that's on you honey and it was your decision if you think of. It's one thing to have unsupportive families and communities until one is able to reach 18 and make their own lives, but at a certain point you will have your own life and nothing's stopping you from transition. Being able to wait 40 years means you were comfortable living as male, which shouldn't be viewed negatively but it is what it is.

My parents did NOT support me. I was beaten up and harassed as a young kid and taken as a hermaphrodite at times. However, I managed to transition at 18. How? Working my ass off, accepting jobs most people wouldn't, saving, etc. But even a unsupportive fsmily comes around, mine did. If you won't try, you won't know but again the responsibility of that decision is yours only.

I guess you're lucky nothing was able to repress it inside of you.

Lol, Do people feel superior or more trans, more a girl because they did it this way and others didn't? 😊 They were brave enough to be themselves and others were not? They learned what others did not? Really?

I was 44 when I started, if that makes every other transsexual girl more or better or whatever, okay. I guess that is something I have to live with. I tried to be normal, if that makes me weak so be it.

You lived your life true to yourself and that is a good thing, I wish I would have done the same. If wishes were fishes we would all live in the sea. There is no going back. I am also a little envious of those who had mother's and fathers. Something else that just is what it is.

I am more than ready to accept inferiority to everyone, that's on me. If someone tries to push their superiority on me, that just makes me sad.

Sheesh, I had a question to ask and then I read the turn this thread took. When will I ever learn to keep my mouth shut? 😊 Just wanted to say that, maybe, how awesome we are is not always helpful. Maybe throwing it in the face of those that didn't quite live up to that can be hurtful.

Michelle

Do not tell me I was comfortable. Please, don't tell me who I am.

Different roads, different priorities ...

Being trans wasn't the central issue in my life before and nowadays it is really just a footnote. When the time was right to do something about it, I did. Now life goes on ...

Quote from: Zoetrope on August 17, 2017, 02:00:44 AM
Coming from the other side of the tracks, I find it hard to understand how somebody can 'know' who they are at age 4,5 or 6 ... when we are just taking our first steps into self-discovery!

It's one of those things we will have to agree to disagree about. What does it mean to truly know something ... what standard is acceptable for us? It's very personal!

I don't understand what it is we have to disagree about unless you're trying to tell my my own mind? When you started kindergarten or 1st grade, didn't you know what you were then? Haven't 99.4% of people figured out what gender they are by the time they are 6 or 7 and for most folks, doesn't that stay stable and consistent throughout their lives? Go ask 500 3rd graders if they're boys or girls and see how few question or have the least bit of doubt of what they are. Gender is the foundation cornerstone of personality and identity as any child development book will tell you. I just happened to know that I wasn't a boy. What's so hard to understand about that and what is there to debate or disagree about unless you're suggesting I was too young to know which is a pretty common theme among anti-trans detractors and the poorly informed.

Quote from: amandam on August 17, 2017, 02:08:31 AM
Lisa_K, maybe you're just braver than some. Maybe the circumstances around you made it easier, there was someone you could count on, like a mom or aunt. It's hard to say... God, I wish I was like you, young now, living in a home where it could be okay, where I could cry in my mom's lap and she'd help me be happy.

There was nothing brave involved in this at all with maybe the exception of facing all the crap in school that I did. As far as a supportive home environment, I was encouraged toward masculinity and given every opportunity to express that but it was never forced after my parents divorced when I was six. Before then was a different story. It was also very obvious this inclination was ill suited to my personality and who I was, what I wanted to do, what I wanted to play with and who my friends were. It didn't take a rocket scientist to pick up on my vibe and one of the reasons, against all conventions of the early 1960's I was able to grow my hair out after the 2nd grade because I was so damned miserable and why I had dolls and Barbies and tea party sets and EZ Bake ovens growing up. Locking me in a cage or beating the crap out of me wouldn't have made any difference in who or how I was. Nothing could have or ever has.

As a very young child, my exclamations about being a girl were suppressed, often times physically or with other punishment and all that taught me was that I couldn't talk about it but that didn't stop me from acting the way I naturally was which was never perceived by anyone as being anything like a "normal boy". As I got older, my personality, looks and innate, un-practiced femininity branded me as a queer fairy homo ->-bleeped-<- resulting in a few incidents of extreme violence and terror beyond the routine harassment and bullying. It wasn't until I was nearly beaten to death when I was 15 that I was again able to say the words out loud to someone else that "I am a girl". As I posted before, my mother's response was that she had always known who I was and was just waiting to hear me say it. With all cards on the table, things changed significantly for me after that.

I never had any doubts or questioned any of this. There was never some long process of self-discovery and awareness. I had always been aware and painfully so. What I didn't understand was why I had to have a boy's body. That took longer to figure out and I still can't say I have it figured out completely other than it was just some fluke of nature. I spent most of my childhood thinking I was a mistake or broken.

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on August 17, 2017, 03:18:58 AM
Lol, Do people feel superior or more trans, more a girl because they did it this way and others didn't?  They were brave enough to be themselves and others were not? They learned what others did not? Really?

... I am more than ready to accept inferiority to everyone, that's on me. If someone tries to push their superiority on me, that just makes me sad.

And now we've come full circle. People wishing they had a life like mine thinking things were so much easier for me which can come across as jealousy or envy or develops into it if history is any indication while others are projecting their illusions of superiority on me when I've done nothing to insinuate such a thing. This is so typical of the things that most trans kids hear and why most avoid communities like this one like the plague.

My intentions in posting my thoughts and story in this thread wasn't to throw my differences in anyone's face, to be hurtful or somehow claim my experience was better than anyone else's and I apologize for interrupting your little party with a different perspective. The point was not to be better or "more trans" (Jeezus!) just that some of us have a very different narrative and a different life experience. Not that I would have wanted things to be any different in the way I grew up because I did have advantages and the opportunity to just be myself but how do you all think coming at me with attitude makes me feel? Amazed at how tribal we all are for one thing which has only reinforced for me that in spite of some of our similarities, we are all very much not the same. Again, not better. Just different. Just as some of you have a hard time imagining what it would have been like to have walked in my shoes, I have an equally hard time imagining what it would be like to walk in yours. In fact personally, I can't even fathom ever being a man. I would have much rather have died than to have grown up and tried to be one.

Quote from: amandam on August 17, 2017, 02:58:26 AM
I guess you're lucky nothing was able to repress it inside of you.

Lucky to be beaten up? Lucky to be harassed, excluded, and have an unsupportive family? Lol, classy. I don't get it. It seems people here think being a feminine child who knows is lucky but this couldn't be further from the truth, as evidenced by Lisa K's post. Also, can we take note of how you rationalized why you didn't transitioned back then because of this or that struggle, but when I talked about mine you dismissed it entirely and called me lucky?

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on August 17, 2017, 03:21:55 AM
Do not tell me I was comfortable. Please, don't tell me who I am.

I wasn't talking about you but now that we are at it. Yes, you were comfortable in the same way someone who stays in a relationship they're not happy with is comfortable with it. Otherwise, they wouldn't stay.

And there again comes the "oohhh you younger transitioners are so lucky, you shouldn't feel superior to us". I know not everyone here thinks like this but some do for sure. It's amazing how we are always presented as the gold standard for proof gender identity is innate but only if presented by you guys and interpretated by you. If we talk about our experiences and how they differ from yours, we are told we are divisive, with a superiority complex when the only thing we are doing is explain our experiences, which differ from yours and can't be be put together that easily. Take notice of how every younger transitioner here was dismissed. I understand that maybe Julia and I are younger and still have a lot to experience, but Lisa K is in the same age group as most of you guys and transitioned back in the 70s and it's still like her words don't count. I know others who transitioned back then, it wasn't unheard of, more difficult, but not impossible.

Quote from: Lisa_K on August 17, 2017, 05:41:03 AM
I don't understand what it is we have to disagree about unless you're trying to tell my my own mind? When you started kindergarten or 1st grade, didn't you know what you were then? Haven't 99.4% of people figured out what gender they are by the time they are 6 or 7 and for most folks, doesn't that stay stable and consistent throughout their lives?

No - I wouldn't tell you what to believe - but it is not my personal belief that a person can have a fully formed concept of their gender and identity after one year of kindergarten.

At that stage we have yet to experience the flux of hormones and puberty, we have yet to learn beyond the very basics what gender means in society, and we have yet to experience much of life. I don't think preferring this item of clothing over that, or this toy over another, is a solid indicator of gender identity.

So on this point we will have to agree to disagree :~)

Quote from: Zoetrope on August 17, 2017, 06:16:47 AM

At that stage we have yet to experience the flux of hormones and puberty, we have yet to learn beyond the very basics what gender means in society, and we have yet to experience much of life.

Puberty was the time that I first noticed that something was "wrong" [emoji848] of course, and because I never shared my thoughts and concerns with anyone I decided to 'man up' with varying degrees of success. Approaching 40, I no longer have the energy or motivation for this charade...

Quote from: Zoetrope on August 17, 2017, 06:16:47 AM
No - I wouldn't tell you what to believe - but it is not my personal belief that a person can have a fully formed concept of their gender and identity after one year of kindergarten.

At that stage we have yet to experience the flux of hormones and puberty, we have yet to learn beyond the very basics what gender means in society, and we have yet to experience much of life. I don't think preferring this item of clothing over that, or this toy over another, is a solid indicator of gender identity.

So on this point we will have to agree to disagree :~)

I don't agree with this. I believe a person can know their gender identity at a very young age. I knew at age 4. No, I didn't know I was trans or what trans was but I knew I wasn't a boy and refused to act like one. If my father had been a hateful dick and had beat me for acting feminine I'm sure I wouldn't have done half the things I did but it wouldn't have changed how I felt. It worries me when people say you can't know your gender identity when you're young. Look at the number of trans kids that transition before puberty. Their parents face a lot of criticism from people who say that. It makes things harder for them to let their children be who they are . Children know what gender they are at a very young age.

No-one said people who transition early are better or more trans than others. It's true that supportive parents make a huge difference. But even with parental support it's still not a cakewalk or all roses.  One thing you have to understand it that transitioning young means dealing with the abuse of other kids at school. We all know how cruel and evil kids can be to each other. I think Aurora was upset because she felt like what she went through was being dismissed and not acknowledged. This happens a lot with young transitioners. The one time I attended a support group meeting a lot of the women just totally dismissed me. I had one woman tell me I was 19 years old and had transitioned so I didn't know what it really meant to be transgender. Really??

No one is saying that late transitioners are less trans or not valid. But because of our experiences we can't really relate to those who do transition later. For me a woman who has lived a successful male life, been in the military, etc, is a totally alien concept for me. And I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying anyone who did is less trans or less female. It's just that I can't understand it because it's something far beyond my ability to have ever done. And no one is saying late transitioners were not brave enough to have transitioned young.  Transitioning late takes a lot of courage as well.

We are all trans and we all have different experiences. All of us can learn from each other no matter at what age we transition.

 :police:
Wholesome discussion is fine but once we start into belittling and one-up-transship it becomes an issue.

Calm down please.

Hey Cindy 😊 Been waiting for someone to step in. Sorry for the dissenting, no more from me.

Weeellllll.... Okay, one more from me. I am not jealous, I didn't realize what I said might be interpreted that way.

I would never want to be dismissive of those who transition young. I think that it is amazing and I enjoy the stories even when they are not always happy stories. Our stories were just written by different people.

My point was to say that our stories being so different does not make all other stories less true or valid. That saying some things without actually knowing the other stories can be hurtful. Admittedly I started with a bit of attitude.  :embarrassed:

I did make a choice to try to be normal. As a child it was fear of the orphanage. As a teen I tried again to be myself. The time in the hospital then institution I was completely alone, abandoned, like I had ceased to exist to my family made me once again to chose to be normal. 😃 What's really funny is that I am now explaining to people on both sides of the trans issue that when given a choice in my life, with only a few exceptions, I chose to be normal. Or try to be normal at any rate. I only gave in when there were no other options. I don't know what that makes me and I suppose it doesn't matter really.

I was terrified of giving in. As much as I needed it, I couldn't. And no, it was not comfortable in any way, it was hell. To the point were I had stopped praying to be a girl, that I would be a girl in my next life or any of that. I was begging for it to be over. No more lives, no do overs just let it end forever. Life was for people, real people, not for me. I was never comfortable being a male, but I was terrified of the consequences if I wasn't.

Like I said, I don't know what that makes me. Where I may be on the gender spectrum.

Anyway tired of crying. I did not mean to hurt, just open some eyes and give perspective maybe.
Laters.
Michelle

I started reading this thread last night and was going to tell my story this morning, but the thread got kinda mean and unfriendly.  This just makes the repression come back for me.  I am planning to go to my first support group meeting this week.  I'm afraid there will be an us vs them feeling in there after seeing what happened here.  Are support groups like this?  I've been very private about transitioning until recently, now feel the need for support, but don't want to feel bad about myself after attending.

Quote from: Bari Jo on August 17, 2017, 09:42:19 AM
I started reading this thread last night and was going to tell my story this morning, but the thread got kinda mean and unfriendly.  This just makes the repression come back for me.  I am planning to go to my first support group meeting this week.  I'm afraid there will be an us vs them feeling in there after seeing what happened here.  Are support groups like this?  I've been very private about transitioning until recently, now feel the need for support, but don't want to feel bad about myself after attending.

I don't think so. From what others have told me a support group is usually moderated and being mean to each other is not tolerated.  I think I just happened to go to a bad one.
Julia

I got angry because someone said I didnt transition when young because I was comfortable being a man. That has never been true n sometimes has been a living hell. Then u put up examples of your life n say you overcame it so what was my problem. I was admiring your strength n was jealous of your self-awareness. Now I just think u r a bully.

We've all had different paths we have had to follow over time. These were largely dictated by what our culture or social environment directed or restricted us to.

I'm old, so even though I expressed that I thought I should be a girl at age 6, that was considered wrong and I was punished. I learned to hide, was caught at age 15 and treated, testosterone injections and counseling by a religious authority, a form of conversion therapy. (ECT and aversion therapy were rejected as too expensive)  This was the Standard of Care at the time.

The experience taught me to repress and remain hidden for decades. I finally had a suicide attempt and breakdown, and came out last year.

I hope the younger transitioners can understand why I waited so long. Sheer fear of non acceptance and another round of conditioning was there even while my rational mind knew a safe transition was possible, and I had a family to protect.

Transition has cost me dearly, but o did finally do it, and have enjoyed the happiest year of my adult life so far.

None of us are "more trans than thou". We all have different experiences and need to follow our own paths. We all live out our own stories as we seek our authentic selves.

This is a support site. Please, please try to support one another.


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Our best data shows that gender identity begins to crystallize at about age 2, and is well formed by age 6 for most people. There's actual research behind this, and this years Gender Spectrum conference covered this in the annual review of the current state of scientific research on gender.

I don't have the paper in my phone, sorry, but it can be obtained through the conference web site. Google is your friend.


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I don't think I am being mean or unsupportive in having a different point of view.

My approach to the question is philosophical. I don't see how it is possible to 'know' something, without fully understanding what it means - especially something like gender or identity, which has meanings on an interpersonal and societal level, as well as on an internalized level.

It's not even a trans-specific situation. Look at all the adult cis people who are still trying to figure out what it means to be a man ... what it means to be a woman ... what their place is ... as they sift through all the social data and conflicting norms out there ...

To each their own opinion!

This is such a difficult concept of gender identity.  I do agree that some people can be mature for their age, and some not so.  Also, it can be a struggle when your family thinks you are one way, yet society thinks you are another.  I for one didn't know about gender identity.  I was naive.  However my parents knew early on that I was basically being a girl.  I'd cross dress, cook, sew, am an artist.  My sisters didn't even want to do that stuff.  I was offered repeatedly by my parents to take hormones to become a girl.  Then offered again, just to delay puberty so I could decide later when I was older.  All that talk scared me so much I went with what society expected.  That gave me thirty years of denial, repression and pain till I'm deciding on my own to change.  So did I know at that age?  Maybe, but societal influence is strong.  I'll tell you and I think I can speak for all the girls that are transitioning late in life.  We are jealous of the young that transitioned early, oh so jealous.  That can translate to pain, hurt feelings, etc when questioned why we didn't overcome before.  Believe me, the pain is there, and it only becomes worse.

Anyway, rant off.  I hope you youngins are accepting of the rest of us.  We are already isolated, but are trying to do what's right for us.

With that I'll go to a support group and find out its all roses.  Here's hoping!

Roses grow best in fresh stinky manure!

Quote from: Zoetrope on August 17, 2017, 05:55:42 PM
I don't think I am being mean or unsupportive in having a different point of view.

My approach to the question is philosophical. I don't see how it is possible to 'know' something, without fully understanding what it means - especially something like gender or identity, which has meanings on an interpersonal and societal level, as well as on an internalized level.

It's not even a trans-specific situation. Look at all the adult cis people who are still trying to figure out what it means to be a man ... what it means to be a woman ... what their place is ... as they sift through all the social data and conflicting norms out there ...

To each their own opinion!

I knew early on like kindergarten. It was not my choice but rather it was predetermined. I knew at seven I liked wearing my sisters costumes. She was so pretty and being the middle kid I felt left out. By the time I was thirteen I was dressing several days a week. By 18 I was praying to somehow snap fingers and convert. Because at the time that was about the only way you were going to get a sex change. Around this time I found a girl I liked a lot, we got married but I could not give her the love and affection she deserved because I was always dreaming of being someone else. I had defects and later my latent heart disease became a problem. By now I was dressing 4-5 times a week while my new wife was at work I stopped for awhile to raise the kids. Last year I started really questioning. I had been to therapy about six different times but could never state why I was actually there. I came clean and with the therapist and we came to the conclusion I was born this way. Further research explained that my mother may have been administered DES (synthetic female hormones) at rates 3000 to 5000 times the amount in a birth control pill. From about week eight of gestation to the end of pregnancy these massive amounts  fueled the development of my brain. There it was I was a boy with a girly brain. I like cooking, I have no muscles, never have, I suck at math, I like decorating, not that into sports except baseball. So very non aggressive. I cried a lot. Had my feelings hurt often, teased in the locker room. Was miserable but had no answers. Surgery was not a widely known possibility. As luck would have it I stumbled upon Susans and I confessed my confusion and did not think I could do anything about it. Then Dena replied and gave me hope. That was about 15 months ago. Yesterday was my one year anniversary on hormone therapy. The way i feel now is the way I should have felt all life long. When I started hormones I felt I was being reacquainted with my past. If  I could have surgery I surely would. I feel I have to make up for lost time but it has always something I did in private but I knew I was not just a crossdresser, I just knew there was reasoning behind it.

Sure, we receive plenty of confirmation of our gender during our teenage years, adolescence and even later on, as we progress through life and our experiences accumulate - I certainly won't dispute that!

But how can we 'just know' at age 6 or younger, when we have only just begun to learn what gender means - or who we even are for that matter? That is my question ...

In my case I didn't just know anything at age 6. We didn't have the language or concepts. I did know that as little kids got bigger we would change. I hoped that I would change, and be a girl. All I knew was that I had a little bump of tissue that girls didn't have, and maybe it would shrink away or fall off as I grew.

A few yardsticks broken across my wrist convinced me to not talk about this, and some of what I heard on the playground back in 1959 told me my dream wouldn't be happening. I still had the discomfort and sense that something was wrong, and it got worse when I was about 13.

At 15 I was caught dressing, grounded (no more bus rides into SF and friendly queens), taken to see doctors who just talked and never examined me, and eventually got regular "vitamin shots, so you'll grow up right", as Dad said. The parish priest counseled me, and the pedophiles at the all-male high school raped me.

Pretty routine childhood, really. I don't see how it could possibly have affected the possibility of my coming out. [emoji849]

Life was different 50 years ago. Being us, trying to come out, could be dangerous. Things started to improve in the 1970s with the Benjamin Protocols and various improvements, and old ideas in psychotherapy falling by the wayside.

I may have hit some worst case conditions, but it kept me in hiding too long. I'm doing better now and fighting hard to ensure it never happens to anyone else. 


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Quote from: DawnOday on August 17, 2017, 08:55:11 PMI like cooking, I have no muscles, never have, I suck at math, I like decorating, not that into sports except baseball. So very non aggressive. I cried a lot. Had my feelings hurt often, teased in the locker room.

I'm not sure what anything on this list has to do with gender.   ???

Lol, well said rmaddy :~)

I might add, I know a handful of cross-dressers who routinely raided their mother's wardrobe throughout childhood - yet they identify solidly as male. For them, dressing up is a kink ... something to break up their alpha-businessman lives ... it isn't an indicator of their gender.

What we do / what he have done rarely tells the full story of who we are!

Quote from: Zoetrope on August 18, 2017, 01:53:00 AM
No - I wouldn't tell you what to believe - but it is not my personal belief that a person can have a fully formed concept of their gender and identity after one year of kindergarten.

Being an only child that grew up on a rural Ohio farm, I didn't really understand that I wasn't a girl or what was different about being a boy until I started kindergarten and had to segregate into the boy's line, etc. Then it became all too depressingly clear that what I knew in my heart to be true wasn't exactly seen the same way by others. I had no concept of "gender" or even the foggiest clue about "identity" but I knew for certain I was not the same as other boys regardless of what I looked like. To me, I was just one of the girls with short hair and different clothes and what  body parts I had hadn't even come into the picture at that point until I figured out those were the things that made me not a girl. Fully formed, conceptualized or identified or not, I knew in my spirit and soul that I was meant to be born a girl. How did I know this? I have absolutely no idea, I just did and always have. It isn't something I have questioned that has always been a constant.

You've mentioned it has taken a lifetime for you to question and figure these things out and it seems impossible for you to believe someone has always known from a young age. By the same token, I find it hard to believe it takes someone being an adult before what they are comes into question or becomes a problem. This is NOT meant to be derogatory but If indeed one's sense of their own gender comes into focus between 2 and 4 years old, how is it that it takes someone 30, 40 or 50 years with a wife and kids before it becomes an issue? Being a boy/man or girl/woman to me seems pretty fundamental to one's life, it sure was to mine and for those folks that have had cross gender ideation since childhood and didn't do anything about it, all I can wonder is why or how they didn't if it was really that important to them? 

I'm familiar with all the reasons. Unsupportive parents, incompatible environments, social pressures, fears of being different, ridicule, shame, religion, confusion, it couldn't be done or was too hard in the past and the list goes on and on, etc., etc. Intellectually I can understand these things and have a certain degree of empathy for those that struggle with these things later in life and my point in this discussion is not to diminish or demean anyone else's experience or feelings but when someone tells me I was too young to know my own, that I was mistaken or don't know what I'm talking about, how can that not put me on the defensive? In my earliest and only memories, I've always known myself to be a girl and nothing else. This is indisputable whether others believe it or not. My actions, interests, manner, interactions and friendships have reflected this completely my entire life. Think what you will about this. I know where I've been. Although transgender and transition weren't the words we used in my family back then, I began actively transitioning 47 years ago, started hormones 45 years ago at 17, had surgery 40 years ago at 22 and have had a lifetime lived as a woman from my teenage years to reflect on all this. That gender identity I had at 5 or 6 has remained solid and consistent for me as it will be for my forever. There's hardly room for anyone to disagree with this.

QuoteAt that stage we have yet to experience the flux of hormones and puberty, we have yet to learn beyond the very basics what gender means in society, and we have yet to experience much of life. I don't think preferring this item of clothing over that, or this toy over another, is a solid indicator of gender identity.

Granted, clothes and toys don't mean much but you've got to concede that these expressions can be at least a fair indicator of what's going on inside especially when these expressions are noticeably atypical to the point of causing social disruption. Also, discounting the lives and existence of pre-pubescent transgender children won't win you many friends among that demographic or their parents. Coming from that background I can say that your belief that a person can't really know what gender they are until puberty and the influences of sexuality come into the picture is simply inaccurate. All this influx of hormones did for me was make me suicidally depressed, further alienated me from my own physicality and only exacerbated the pain of who I was and how I was seen by others which by that point was completely androgynous and queer, which was to say the least, not very popular in the 1960's. This was the most distressing time in my life, not something that reinforced having a male gender identity in any respects. Quite the contrary, in fact. It only strengthened my resolve that things were fundamentally wrong and needed to be fixed.

QuoteSure, we receive plenty of confirmation of our gender during our teenage years, adolescence and even later on, as we progress through life and our experiences accumulate - I certainly won't dispute that!

But how can we 'just know' at age 6 or younger, when we have only just begun to learn what gender means - or who we even are for that matter? That is my question ...

Haven't non-trans people figured these things out by then? Did they need to understand the sociological implications of gender or have their entire lives and identity figured out? Didn't the things Michelle_P posted about the formation and establishment of gender identity mean anything to you or is that just rubbish because you believe it can't be true?

In spite of the odds or what you believe possible I have always known myself to be a girl in heart and mind. Never in any of my memories have I believed myself to be anything else and this was something far more than just internalized feelings. My parents had been taking me to psychiatrists from the time I was ten years old because my distress was palpable and when I did declare at fifteen that I was going to live the rest of my life as a girl why there was no resistance or surprise. What I was had always been obvious and yes, even as a six year old.

Just as I am expected to understand how others have experienced and dealt with their own transness even though it doesn't all make sense to me and seems foreign because it is so different from what I've been through, I'd appreciate the same level respect for my own experiences and feelings however different from your own they may be.

Let's all hold hands now and sing Kumbaya or something.

 :police:

I shall say again to be respectful and to read ToS. This site is welcoming to all gender diverse people and I will not have disparaging remarks made about anyone.

I shall also point out that what is culturally normal now, particularly in progressive, welcoming socio-economic environments is not and was not in anyway accepted in other environments.

We do have current members in certain countries who have been forced into mental institutions (and worse) for coming out as TG. Be glad that you live where you are.

It is also very well known and researched that gender identity forms at an early age but can however remain fluid throughout adolescence. This is a major problem in the diagnosis and treatment of young transgender people.

Repression of gender identity by such tortures that Michelle and others of her age group went through was sadly common. The bravery of women such as her should be carved into our own wall of remembrance and be thankful that you never went through such treatment.

Please be considerate in your ongoing discussion as I am looking at this thread and how people are expressing themselves closely and with sadness and flashbacks.

Cindy
Forum Admin.

That's a very long response Lisa_K ... so I think I will cut to the chase ...

People have different roads, different priorities in life, different personal meanings for things, and any honest academic knows all studies are open to critique.

I'll stick to my guns and believe what feels true to me, keep questioning things which don't add up, and I want everybody to have the freedom to do the same!

My story in a tiny bit more detail ... hope this makes it a little easier to understand!

I had been cross-dressing on and off from my late teens, and it escalated in my early 30s. Things got to the stage where I was living a double life ... I felt relaxed and free with my expression as Zoe ... and in my daily working life I was counting down the hours to go home, feeling stuffed inside a box.

This began affecting my relationships and my happiness in general. I still didn't have a concept that I was transgender, because I hadn't been exposed to it before, and I didn't know about the options. It was off my radar and I simply thought I was a high-strung cross-dresser.

It was when I opened up and began talking to my doc and my peers that I learned I wasn't alone. Lots of other people have been on my road too. When I learned about the option to transition, that was when the choice came. It wasn't an easy choice and it cost me a lot ... but at least I am myself now and I have peace.

So there you go ... you don't need to 'always know' you are transgender ... for transition to be a really positive move.

Quote from: Zoetrope on August 18, 2017, 04:35:22 AM
My story in a tiny bit more detail ... hope this makes it a little easier to understand!

I had been cross-dressing on and off from my late teens, and it escalated in my early 30s. Things got to the stage where I was living a double life ... I felt relaxed and free with my expression as Zoe ... and in my daily working life I was counting down the hours to go home, feeling stuffed inside a box.

This began affecting my relationships and my happiness in general. I still didn't have a concept that I was transgender, because I hadn't been exposed to it before, and I didn't know about the options. It was off my radar and I simply thought I was a high-strung cross-dresser.

It was when I opened up and began talking to my doc and my peers that I learned I wasn't alone. Lots of other people have been on my road too. When I learned about the option to transition, that was when the choice came. It wasn't an easy choice and it cost me a lot ... but at least I am myself now and I have peace.

So there you go ... you don't need to 'always know' you are transgender ... for transition to be a really positive move.

My gosh, your story is nearly identical to me:
As a kid, I crossdressed, but didn't know why. Through my 20's, 30's I would dress once a year. Dressing wasn't important, and only until I met with a gender therapist and she asked me what role clothes played, did I learn that I wasn't "just" a cross dresser. I learned what transgender meant, and that transition was a real thing.
It's been 10 years since the therapy, so hard to believe how far I've come. Transition wise, I have nothing to accomplish...just living life to the fullest.

Hi all,

Not here to confuse anyone. I can certainly understand both sides of this discussion. I am just here to add my experiences fairly truncated. I am one of the older members that did not "Know" when I was young. Not entirely true, I knew something was wrong. I just could not pinpoint it. I think a large part of the "older transitioners" will get what I'm about to write. I just want others to try to understand this is what it was like for many of us.

I never understood the segregating of boys and girls when it started to happen. In the same way that I never understood what all the plastic vegetables in kindergarten were for(really, if you don't remember/experience this- in our toy cubbies were plastic corn, carrots, lettuce and cabbage). You could throw and catch them, you could pretend to eat them but they looked like they were still growing. I lived in an area where we would have planted seeds and grown things in class. What was the point? Why pretend to pick or grow them? Why separate us?

I think that was the last time I felt normal. I did try on clothing, habitually. This is around 7 or 8. Not driven by a sexual motivation(took me about 42 years to figure/remember that). I was caught. It was made very dirty and clear that boys do not wear those things. That didn't make sense either but I wanted to fit. I wanted to be what my Mom and Dad wanted. I wanted to be a good boy. I wanted to be happy.

I was not abused. I was not terribly punished(outside of the self imposed guilt that was established by these rules). By all recollections of myself and others I was seen as a delightfully smart little boy with cute cheeks and a tendency to be very serious. I smiled and enjoyed friends and games when I could. I just did not fit in. In the "WASP" ish culture where I grew up , there were no words for what I felt.  I knew all along, that I did not fit but faked it. I guess I had heard of a few of the sex changes, but with the way the news covered that sort of thing, it was sexualized, and seen as a freak show. Normal people didn't do that. So, while I was fascinated by this (and had been since then), I couldn't be one of "those". I was a good ....boy. Sometimes I was a "pervert" but I couldn't let anyone else know or see that. I just had to try harder.

Everything I described continued like this through college. I had a few girl friends. I had a little physical intimacy but nothing seemed genuine. I ended up dating my best friend. We dated a long time and got married. She once caught me with some of her things in the first year or so of marriage. I hated myself so much and did not want to lose my best friend and wanted to pull that memory of sight from her brain. Oh, and please God, don't let her tell anyone. She didn't, she almost forgot all about this. She has loved and supported me through our times together. She is my best friend.

Sooner or later another decade or two passed. I had created a shell, puppet or avatar that was me. That is who the world interacted with. I still didn't "Know I was a girl". Toward the end of my forties, my wife really wanted me to go to a therapist. She could see the dark, terrible place I had entered and I had lost pretty much all of my fun.  We had three daughters at this point. I was responsible to my family. Of the three siblings in my family, my wife and I were the only stable relationship of either side of the family.

Raising kids is exhausting for both parents(I can barely imagine how single parents do this). I pulled my puppet around me tighter and made adjustments to be a father. When no one was around, I would dress, write dialogues to myself and increase my guilt and feelings of being self loathing and worthlessness. Now I was afraid of people finding out I was a phony and undeserving of anything good. My kids are pretty brilliant(as a parent you think I have to say that but they really seem to be-maybe that's just biology talking). After dressing, or hiding notes to myself, I would break down without crying(was not able to cry till I turned 50 and started therapy). I had become very good at maintaining what felt like an empty shell. I still didn't "know". I just knew I was sometimes a pervert. I disconnected most genuine feelings and went through the motions and wasted much of my life just marking time.

At 50 I read some more articles about trans people and cross dressers.  I wanted to end this life but knew my insurance would not pay if any one found out it was a suicide. I hated myself for being a coward. I also wanted to get my girls through college. I was an empty shell spinning in circles logically and emotionally while time did not wait for me to figure it out. I had never been to a therapist. However, I finally believed what I had read of other's experiences. I was a pervert and a cross dresser. I went and asked how to cure this....

For younger folks who realized at an early age, this may seem pathetic and sad. I won't argue. I have done very good work in my job. I am proud of my children. Especially the one who just came out as non-binary. Something she has been exploring since before they knew about me. When I grew up, what you were born as is what you were. Each year, I began to close off more, drink and self medicate more and figure ways to make it look like an accident.

The older I get, the less I can push it down. If you push it down here, it starts popping out there. It's like taking "goop" in both hands. Try to squeeze it as hard as you can without any coming out....

Now, every step I take. Strips away the puppet. I started feeling things which was almost a disaster. However, I am seeing glimpses of me. I never recognized myself in a mirror. I just saw the puppet. Now his strings are finally being cut.

I hope that helps some of you understand.

With warmth,

Jacqueline

Jacqueline, thank you for that.  Your story almost perfectly describes mine (though no kids for me). 

It is all too common for us to grow up knowing that something was "not right" about us without knowing what.  And by calling it "not right" (i.e. wrong), as we did, you can see how we created our own barriers to finding out what it was about.  Whatever it was, we grew up wanting to be rid of it, wanting to be "right" like everyone else.  We tried so hard to push it away from us.  So hard.  But, of course, you can't.

Though I can't ever know it from my own experience, I understand how others could have known their true identities from the earliest age.  God, how I envy them!  To have grown up free to be myself...  Oh well, maybe in my next life.

You can't turn back the clock, so I am going to sieze what's left of this life and make the most of it.

Jacqueline, I, and I'm sure many others in the over 40 group get it.  Have you read Anne Vitale's work she posts on her website?  When I read her description of what she's coined Group 3, I just started laughing.  I fit at least 80% of what she described there.

Thanks ladies.

I wanted to add something that I was in a rush and forgot to add here.

I think there two root problems that explains the misunderstanding of these older and younger transitioning people(and much of the rest of the world -yup I'm gonna win a Nobel). It is a combination of experience, which includes how one grew up and with what beliefs, disbeliefs and rebellion happens from there. The second is our personalities and how we are able to communicate. Meyers Briggs if you will. Then one more element (ok now she's adding more ingredients), how much we can empathize. Not sympathize. You don't have to like the choices and reasons people have for things. However, are you compassionate enough to see why that is their choice, argument, perspective,...

For a while, and truth be told, even sometimes now. I do feel sorry for myself and the time and potentials I lost. That is not a healthy place to stay. When I came to my big moment of choices it came down to do I want to live a bitter, angry resentful life till I cut it short or do I want to live and feel. Both joy and pain(what I meant in the other post about feeling is that once I started feeling again, while I was depressed before, I wasn't connected. Now I can become despondent) and be able to see light and smile and point out when people have done a great job or need help. Not to mention empathize when folks need it.

K. I'm rambling now. Sorry.

Thanks if you read these long rambling posts. If you did not experience what I did growing up and don't understand.... try what I am suggesting. Imagine you are me when reading my previous post. If you  make it personal it is easier to understand. No one can truly walk in someone another's shoes(well, I often wear his shoes at work still but more often Jacqui's) but we can be on a similar path and see the same markers and what might have taken place.

Finally. Realizing is one thing, knowing is another. It's a long tough road whether you start when you are 4 and finish by 18 or start at whatever decade and continue.

With warmth,

Jacqueline

As to whether we 'know' we're girls or boys when we're young isn't the point. When we are girls in a boys body it's the world around us by which we see ourselves, like a mirror. Other people treat us like the boy we look like, but it feels off to us. Some us feel this more than others and some of us have different circumstances so that it doesn't become apparent that we're 'that' different for a much longer time. My first indication that I was a girl was my friend saying 'take off your shirt, it's hot out here. My sister did first[she was4]and he yelled 'you cant do that your a girl', to this day I cant go without my shirt on! Later that summer a bunch of us boys were playing around one of them called another one a sissy boy and calling that for three days. That stuck in my soul because to me I was the ultimate sissy, and that was the moment that my 'girl' started going underground and becoming my secret that no one could ever know.       All the information I got from school, T.V., the people around me was that people like me were mentally defective or perverts. I never felt like a pervert or mentally defective, but was terrified they would think I was if they found who I thought I was. We learned about puberty when I was about 13 and 14 and that terrified me too. I learned what it was going to do 'to' me, not 'for' me. And I couldn't stop any of it. I wanted to die. Even with all of that baggage on me I've always been proud to be female even if I didn't look like it! But I have noticed something over these many years, people subconsciously treat me like a woman[it's usually not good], and have any of you been treated subconsciously like women?    So, we 'can' know very early that we're girls but not all of us will. For some it's just an itch in your mind that you just scratch and ignore until you finally have the great revelation 'Oh that's what's wrong with me' 

When all the replies are averaged out, you've painted a perfect picture of me.   With respect  Rae Anne

Quote from: Dani2118 on August 19, 2017, 11:06:31 PM
But I have noticed something over these many years, people subconsciously treat me like a woman[it's usually not good], and have any of you been treated subconsciously like women?    So, we 'can' know very early that we're girls but not all of us will. For some it's just an itch in your mind that you just scratch and ignore until you finally have the great revelation 'Oh that's what's wrong with me'

I have written about this before! I can recall many times when, because of my girly appearance and build, I would be instructed by a boy/man nearby to 'step aside' when something 'manly' needed to be done like moving a piece of furniture or lifting something. I was never taken seriously whenever the subject matter concerned anything masculine. I was expected to remain quiet, or if I did make the mistake of giving my opinion (or just simply speaking up) I would notice the smirks and attitudes. I tried for many years to fit into the culture but I just couldn't. I hated my feminine body for years in spite of wishing to be a girl. Now after 16 months HRT I just don't give a damn....

Quote from: Shellie Hart on August 21, 2017, 11:38:12 AM
I have written about this before! I can recall many times when, because of my girly appearance and build, I would be instructed by a boy/man nearby to 'step aside' when something 'manly' needed to be done like moving a piece of furniture or lifting something. I was never taken seriously whenever the subject matter concerned anything masculine. I was expected to remain quiet, or if I did make the mistake of giving my opinion (or just simply speaking up) I would notice the smirks and attitudes. I tried for many years to fit into the culture but I just couldn't. I hated my feminine body for years in spite of wishing to be a girl. Now after 16 months HRT I just don't give a damn....

I have never been treated like a guy. It certainly didn't bother me but I always noticed it before I transitioned.  It happens to a greater extent now, but guys have always talked down to me about anything that's considered masculine. As if I was just to stupid and empty headed to understand without a very slow, detailed explanation.  Even my dad and brother did that and sometimes still do. Being really small for a boy and feminine guys seemed to have an attitude like, " I know you're a boy, but you're not really. You aren't worthy of being called a boy."  Actually that was probably helpful to me and I didn't realize it. I had guys at school say all kinds of stuff to me, knock my books out of my arms, throw food at me, etc. But I was never hit or beat up. I found out from my brother that a lot of guys won't hit or beat up someone who's much smaller than they are and basically considered helpless. Supposedly it violates the "guy code" or something.
Guys are just weird. They act as if it's some big privilege to be a guy and other guys have to prove they are "worthy" to be included in the "group". It's actually like really sad. I knew some small kind of nerdy guys in school. They desperately wanted to be included with the "cool" guys but were never allowed to.
Julia

I've never had any uber male friends.  When I'd run into one I'd just groan, hope and pray they don't start in about the big game, etc.   ???  The whole sparring contest thing is so dumb.  Well, a really close friend of mine is actually macho big time, but we have a common bond in music that makes it all irrelevant.  He's really talented and funny too, a true individual.  Completely disinterested in mainstream male stuff as well. 

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on August 17, 2017, 09:21:40 AM
I was terrified of giving in. As much as I needed it, I couldn't. And no, it was not comfortable in any way, it was hell. To the point were I had stopped praying to be a girl, that I would be a girl in my next life or any of that. I was begging for it to be over. No more lives, no do overs just let it end forever. Life was for people, real people, not for me. I was never comfortable being a male, but I was terrified of the consequences if I wasn't.

I can relate to all of this so much right now.



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Quote from: Dani2118 on August 19, 2017, 11:06:31 PMBut I have noticed something over these many years, people subconsciously treat me like a woman[it's usually not good], and have any of you been treated subconsciously like women?

Wow. I have felt that from my uncles and aunts, one uncle specifically. Like they're usually more affectionate to me than they are to their other male nephews. Always thought that was just in my head until now.


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I started relatively younger compared to a lot of you, just this year a few days shy of 24. But I often feel like I was robbed of actually experiencing a childhood and a teenhood I could enjoy. I was a very shy kid, depressed and suicidal. As far as I knew at those ages, transgender was a term for drag queens, I would even make fun of trans women with my cousins thinking it was the most bizarre thing. I didn't know anything. It's sickening how society ingrains gender binary into our heads at such a young age. Even with all of that, quietly in the back of my mind I always felt different and always played with the girls and left the boys alone. It was just a mess. One day we will get to a point where gender identity will be accepted for it's fluidity as easy as knowing the answer to 1 + 1.

Wow, so many stories!

I have no idea where I fit because I feel like I fit in both camps. It's weird. I don't know how weird, but probably really really weird. I have no idea why but I've been having this desire to tell my story somewhere for years, but I'm too afraid to do it. Once I start the whole thing will probably come out and that's going to end up being novel length. It's too complicated and embarrassingly insane and I can't see why anyone would want to read that *bleep* anyway.

The short version is that the first time I encountered my genitals in a personal way an accidental convergence of imagination and ignorance led me to sincerely believe that this thing between my legs i had always assumed would just fall off eventually was in fact some kind of massive evil worm that had laid eggs in me that would one day hatch out millions of worms to eat me from the inside out. I spent like a month in mortal terror of my dick. Then repressed the hell out of it to survive.

I was a pretty normal kid in terms of gender, I think. I liked legos and airplanes and origami, and playing house as well. My oldest friend swears I used to try to play dress-up her and my sister and get them to put make-up on me all the time but I don't remember that at all, which is pretty odd for me.

I knew I was trans at the age of eight, the moment I first saw my aunt. It was not welcome news. My father is particularly homo/transphobic and we were involved in a very conservative religious cult of some sort as well, so things got weird fast. Weirder than you probably think, actually (there were extenuating factors). So realizing I was the same meant I was going to become an "abomination unto the lord" and go to hell. It felt like doom or fate, I don't know, but I locked myself in the bathroom that day and began to pray like I never had before. For whatever reason the thing that worried me the most about going to hell was the idea that in my path towards becoming an abomination I would be dragging down a lot of other innocent people into hell with me. The only thing I could think to do was kill myself, but I didn't want to die and I didn't want to go to hell. But right then if I'd had a sign that said I'd be forgiven for it I was convinced I'd do it without hesitation. But I never got a sign, and so I figured maybe I could avoid it by totally ignoring that other face I kept seeing in the mirror and living a super godly life.

I managed to repress the idea, and remain in denial even as i began cross dressing after I moved out on my own, but I think I had very severe GD and it came out in another way that tortured me every day of my life and got much stronger every time I had to do anything masculine. But I was totally unable to really do anything feminine because of the situation, so I lived in this kind of depressive hell, particularly once puberty started and I couldn't recognize myself at all. I didn't want to be a girl in the slightest because I felt I needed a certain amount of power to survive.

Definitely not, except, you know, always. Except it was always about body and it never even occurred to me that it had anything at all to do with gender or sex even as i'd be pining away, wishing I were like one girl or other. But to me everyone was just another people.

I remember the first time someone pointed out my bulge, and how bad I wanted to hide under a rock. I was too large to tuck, so long shirts were the thing. I went from homeschool to highschool and everyone seemed to think I was gay. It made zero sense to me, but it just never stopped. In retrospect I think it was my body language, because trying to act like a male always made me feel like a stone golem and I'd forget to do it at times.

Over and over I'd hear people talking about how they felt like men and it just made zero sense to me. I kept thinking that maybe when i grew a beard, or pubic hair, or whatever masculine milestone was next, THEN I'd feel like a man and get it. Meanwhile, the backstreet boys in my headphones. Meanwhile, puberty had brought with it an aversion to being touched that just kept growing until one day my mom hugged me from behind and it messed with me so bad I almost socked her on reflex. Nothing felt right, and the more I got the things I thought I wanted the more I felt like something was wrong. I thought I knew what that something was, and it was a lot more impossible than becoming a girl so I had to just stay alive.

Couldn't take it any more at 16. Decided to end it, but mom is kind of psychic and forces me to go with her to church on that day. I realize how much pain I'd cause them, and so i promised id never do it and then mostly dreamed of death for the next eight years. I got into drugs, nothing specific and never became addicted to anything except not feeling like me. I always held down a job or went to school until it was too much torture to stay and then i'd make some drastic change. I changed my major four times, my college once, moved something like 23 times in ten years, and had sixteen jobs. I only felt okay-ish during transition periods.

at 19 I gave up on religion. It wasn't working and too many people were contradicting each other with the same passages.

At 28, I learn for the first time that my body actually can respond to touch... if I'm touched like a female. I don't want this to be the answer, but I've always known it's true.

It took me three more years and developing some unknown and supposedly incurable chronic illness to finally realize that if I didn't at least try HRT I might not live long anyway. I was just losing the will to live. Not eating. Life just hurt too much.

So I start a week ago, and it improved life better than any medication I've tried in the first hour. I'm 31, totally broke, nowhere near as disabled, and finally feeling like I've got a reason to live. The future feels like it actually exists, and like there's time in between now and dying. I have absolutely no idea how I'm going to afford FFS, but I think I will, somehow. Doing my own electro.

So I'm kind of both early and late onset. The crippling sense that my body was WRONG just pummeled me every day, but I was so trapped by all this fear in so many opposing directions that I couldn't even let myself think about it.

Quote from: Lexira on August 31, 2017, 07:50:09 AM
I knew I was trans at the age of eight, the moment I first saw my aunt. It was not welcome news. My father is particularly homo/transphobic and we were involved in a very conservative religious cult of some sort as well, so things got weird fast. Weirder than you probably think, actually (there were extenuating factors). So realizing I was the same meant I was going to become an "abomination unto the lord" and go to hell. It felt like doom or fate, I don't know, but I locked myself in the bathroom that day and began to pray like I never had before. For whatever reason the thing that worried me the most about going to hell was the idea that in my path towards becoming an abomination I would be dragging down a lot of other innocent people into hell with me. The only thing I could think to do was kill myself, but I didn't want to die and I didn't want to go to hell. But right then if I'd had a sign that said I'd be forgiven for it I was convinced I'd do it without hesitation. But I never got a sign, and so I figured maybe I could avoid it by totally ignoring that other face I kept seeing in the mirror and living a super godly life.

At 28, I learn for the first time that my body actually can respond to touch... if I'm touched like a female. I don't want this to be the answer, but I've always known it's true.

It took me three more years and developing some unknown and supposedly incurable chronic illness to finally realize that if I didn't at least try HRT I might not live long anyway. I was just losing the will to live. Not eating. Life just hurt too much.

So I'm kind of both early and late onset. The crippling sense that my body was WRONG just pummeled me every day, but I was so trapped by all this fear in so many opposing directions that I couldn't even let myself think about it.

A lot of this was/is me. I also grew up in an extreme cult where I was required to keep my hair very short and wear baggy clothes and the girls had to wear only dresses -- no "evil" pants. My father had no idea the damage he did when he kept accusing me of "wanting to be a girl" because of my personality and body shape (very long and womanly legs and small torso). I wanted to grow long hair but he refused. Hellish. Suicide was my companion for many years. Sometimes still is.

I tried to be a good fundamentalist Baptist for so long, but the insane hypocrisy I dealt with in the churches was too much. I had to get out. Today, many of them are "praying for me" because of my life changes. Going to hell? I don't see it. I am not a hypocrite like they are.

Strangely, in sex I was turned on by touch. I was taught that is the way women are turned on. Men are turned on by sight and touching the female form. I get it. But I was different.

So much more to say.....

It is difficult to figure out. Some figure it out when they are very young. I am not that old but even the time you are figuring things out life just happens. If the circumstances were different I would also be different.

The question for me is if transition is the right way forward. That is not easy and comes with it's own difficulties. I have been trying to figure things out since I am 5. 

Quote from: Shellie Hart on August 31, 2017, 11:41:35 AM
A lot of this was/is me. I also grew up in an extreme cult where I was required to keep my hair very short and wear baggy clothes and the girls had to wear only dresses -- no "evil" pants. My father had no idea the damage he did when he kept accusing me of "wanting to be a girl" because of my personality and body shape (very long and womanly legs and small torso). I wanted to grow long hair but he refused. Hellish. Suicide was my companion for many years. Sometimes still is.

I tried to be a good fundamentalist Baptist for so long, but the insane hypocrisy I dealt with in the churches was too much. I had to get out. Today, many of them are "praying for me" because of my life changes. Going to hell? I don't see it. I am not a hypocrite like they are.

Strangely, in sex I was turned on by touch. I was taught that is the way women are turned on. Men are turned on by sight and touching the female form. I get it. But I was different.

So much more to say.....

Yeah, exactly.

Want to chat a bit about cult life via PM? It would be super sweet to compare experiences in a more in-depth kind of way without also derailing the thread.