I haven't started hrt but am in the process. What I'm wanting to know is. Will male ego go away with hrt. I'm def transgender but I struggle with macho type thoughts and being competitive you know male ego type stuffg. And i hate it. Will this type of stuff naturally go away with hrt?
I'm finding it to be more habit, now. So when i recognize it it's easier to shutdown since there's no emotion behind it
--
"You do realize, this means you get to do character creation & the newbie zone all over again? :D"
You can't medicate away male privilege/ego. You need to talk/think it through. Estrogen might impact your level of initiative/aggression, but the rest is up to you.
So it's something you ladies had to work on letting go of?
Yep. Trained in, trained out.
Dang I thought that was something the her would knock it right out of me lol.. well I guess it's something I shouldn't start working on. At least it's some change I can make while waiting on her I'm always looking for ways I can build myself
I'm lucky in that I rarely play the one upmanship game.
I find it silly and facile.
Has E made me less likely than that?
Maybe. If someone starts bragging I find I simply dont care about it.
Quote from: Randy1980 on August 01, 2017, 10:33:42 PMDang I thought that was something the her would knock it right out of me lol.. well I guess it's something I shouldn't start working on. At least it's some change I can make while waiting on her I'm always looking for ways I can build myself
HRT may help with the process, especially if you're aware of it (like Ripley kicking the Alien out of the airlock).
Having an ego isn't a problem -- well, anymore than it is for any other person on the planet. But what makes "the male ego" so toxic in today's culture is that it is rarely accompanied by empathy, with a selfless concern for other people. In my experience, estrogen and progesterone and anti-androgens really helped to unlock my own empathy, because they unlocked my emotions. And, I dunno, it's so much easier to empathize when I can actually
feel without inhibition.
I think it's also interesting that so many of the world's religions have some form of ego death either in their practice or their mythology. Following a spiritual path (take your pick) might help with your endeavor, Randy. Then again, transition itself is a spiritual path, so that might be redundant.
If you like to read in an academic style, I'd highly recommend
Women's Ways of Knowing and
You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation, more as jumping off points for wrapping our heads around this than as some kind of edict for how to behave.
I saw in myself the male ego macho BS stuff was just one of the many tactics I employed to be a chameleon and able to blend in with guys. As was said earlier you essentially "Train" yourself so it is your reflexive reaction to the events around you.
It wasn't untill I started putting in the hard work work to heal myself from the inside and begin to shed the Shame & Guilt of who and what I am, to accept that I am trans, did I give myself permission to try, on occasion, just to be Me. To react as I sort of always wanted to react and to not do what I thought some guy should react like.
Quote from: Randy1980 on August 01, 2017, 10:23:34 PM
I haven't started hrt but am in the process. What I'm wanting to know is. Will male ego go away with hrt. I'm def transgender but I struggle with macho type thoughts and being competitive you know male ego type stuffg. And i hate it. Will this type of stuff naturally go away with hrt?
I have found that after 6 months or so that I felt different. Don't look for some switch to suddenly turn off on the macho thoughts. You have to be motivated to want to change your thought process,first of all. The hormones brought about an assess to emotion that wasn't there before. I used to say I see emotion in black and white. After HRT I see them in vivid color. I have lost a lot of the need to compete to be funny or have some great idea that say my older brothers didn't have. I no longer have that need. Also, I got more comfortable listening to others. If you get a great kick out of the competitions in your life, you will have to decide what to allow to fade away and what to allow in. In my opinion, the mellowness is so much better than the need to be the winner. Good luck.
Moni
Quote from: Sophia Sage on August 02, 2017, 07:22:48 AM
HRT may help with the process, especially if you're aware of it (like Ripley kicking the Alien out of the airlock).
Having an ego isn't a problem -- well, anymore than it is for any other person on the planet.
Well, kinda sorta...
Male
ego isn't the problem. Male
privilege is the problem. Those raised male have been socialized in different ways than those raised female. Talking out of turn, taking credit for the ideas of others, talking down to women, "mansplaining", etc are behaviors that, regardless of the level of ego, people raised as male have been encouraged to adopt.
I fully agree that HRT broadens one's emotional range. Having a broader emotional range doesn't always result in less privileged behavior...in fact it is often quite the opposite. Fueled by more emotion, the person of privilege feels even more compelled to assert themselves when they should be settling into a group and actively considering the input of others. We all know trans women who have become miserable women and/or people who make other women miserable because they haven't forgotten the ingrained habit of acting as if they know more than they do.
This sort of thing takes work--real work, and left undone will "out" a trans woman as much as her appearance.
Yeah I'm not some outward matcho show off or anything it's more matcho thoughts my male side telling me to stop and putting shameful thoughts in my head about everything telling me to man up I think the hrt will help but I agree I need to work on excepting myself for who and what I really am.. I need to realize that I'm not a man I never was even though I faked it very well I'm a woman and it's ok to be a woman and act like one.. thank you all for the advice
I used to work in a call center and I noticed men had a really hard time saying "I'm sorry" to the customers. Even tho it's pretty much a requirement of the job to say that early and often. Which women do easily. When I was a young man I had a much harder time saying "I'm sorry." Most men didn't last very long at the job.
I was pre-HRT then, so no I don't think HRT will help much with that.
Oh dear. I am younger then you and i still had that issue. See, i wasnt super macho naturally. But at I young age i knew i had to be among the boys and not question it. I patterened my beleifs, actions, behaviours and stuff from men and only men. Boy, was that a mistake. Years and years and years of trying to be every type of man under the sun I came to the conclusion that putting myself under the male umbrella was what was causing me greif. However even then I had realized that tho acting and livng as male myself was a huge bummer, just about everything i learned and beelived from about age 8 was from some male. Shedding both those behaviors and acts are super hard. Today, I am at my most feminine point and even remembering those times bother me, but they still pop into my head. It was real difficukt in 2014 when the dysphoira was hard but spent years not even acknowldhing that girl inside. Or well, not allowing her time to breath anways. She made her presence known
I struggle with this as well. Often I am not even conscious of it. It was learned and rewarded behavior from when I was growing up. I am starting to catch myself now that I pay attention to it. Its like anger and aggression were my go to emotions, because I was not "allowed" to have any others.
If it makes you feel any better, I have known plenty of aggressive and competitive women, especially at one facility I worked at where most of my coworkers were nurses. Some of them could get very nasty with one another at times. The last job I worked at, my boss was a woman, and would often tell us to pull our panties up and get on with the job, she was incredibly aggressive, competitive, and much more of a "man" than I ever was.
These ladies had estrogen coursing through their bloodstream for years, and it did not change them. I've always been on the passive side, hate competition, want to live in a world that is united in peace, etc, etc, and am not on HRT. I've seen them get in fights, stand up to others, where as I am the sort of person that will likely cry in direct confrontation, I really don't think it is a gender thing. It is just how gender roles are traditionally seen.
What I am saying is, you can be competitive and be a woman. I don't see any conflict here. :)
Well I guess I'm lucky I never experienced this. In fact I didn't even know there was such thing until recently since I've seen those 2 words together often.
Quote from: zamber74 on August 02, 2017, 10:50:10 AM
What I am saying is, you can be competitive and be a woman. I don't see any conflict here. :)
True, but society treats competitive/competent women differently.
Men show initiative. Women are pushy.
Men show passion when they speak. Women are shrill.
Men speak their mind. Women are bitchy.
Men rise above the pack. Women don't work well with a team.
Here's another example:
Nowadays, I have no problem saying to people, "I can't help you move that, I'm not strong enough."
I'm not sure it is ego, being stereotypical or what, but i have changed considerably. Less competitive but not completely so, less worried about possessiveness, less fear of not having power and being in control, more willing to let others lead in some situations etc.
I hate my male ego, in the past I would go psycho when ever I was in a conflict with another male to the point where people would not go near me, now I realize it was just the pure anger & frustration of being a trans person & trying to hide it.
Slowly & surely I am teaching myself just to walk away from these things because it is not me.
While I never had a huge male ego, what takes the edge off it is being treated like a second class citizen. You quickly learn to let the guy with the ego have is way while you silently get the job done. Sooner or latter the guy with the ego trips up and because there was so much ego to contend with, they start looking for somebody who can get the job done without the ego. This is why I am the last employee of our drastically downsized company.
I agree with what Robyn said.
Over the last four years I too have changed considerably. In my working life I was always highly competitive with an enormous drive to succeed. That drive and competitiveness has almost gone. I haven't tried not too be so, but these days I find it much easier being the submissive one in working and business relationships. In fact I never these days butt in on conversations and always seem to seek out other's opinions. Interestingly in the rare occasion I have to present in male mode, most people that knew the "old" me find it very disconcerting. In fact they tell me I can by quite different in negotiating contracts. Like Robyn, I am much less worried about possessiveness and I am no longer the slightest bit worried about not having power and being in control. In fact I revel now in the position where others (especially men) can take the lead in general day to day conversations and decisions. These days I love being driven by a man (or another woman) and being in a daydream whilst the world slips by. Sometimes though it can catch me out, like recently I was flying in Business Class on a long haul BA flight and the woman sitting next to me (I was in male mode!) said that she was amazed that I was the first man she had ever met that was interested in Womans magazines and that I seemed to be "devouring the fashion and make-up pages in Vogue and Elle magazines. I almost blurted out - but I am a woman!
I recently lost an arm wrestling match to a cis dude and I was hell annoyed! I doubt the ego will ever go!
Quote from: rmaddy on August 02, 2017, 10:26:43 AM
Male ego isn't the problem. Male privilege is the problem. Those raised male have been socialized in different ways than those raised female. Talking out of turn, taking credit for the ideas of others, talking down to women, "mansplaining", etc are behaviors that, regardless of the level of ego, people raised as male have been encouraged to adopt.
I've seen women doing these exact same things. It's people - regardless of their sex - running roughshod over others because they can and because they feel nothing negative when they do. My own mother is most egotistical and overbearing person I know and the men (and women) around her in her professional life walk on eggshells with her because they don't want an earful. She openly mocks who she sees as stupid and 'beneath her' and has recently decided her lack of empathy is a fact for which she is not responsible. The idea this is some specifically male privilege or ego problem is incorrect.
Anyone who spends time with groups of women will soon spot the female equivalent of this in their midst.
If someone has a problem with an overbearing ego, whatever gender they are, that is something they are going to have to deal with themselves. Hormones alone aren't going to completely remove a personality trait or habit that has grown in someone. The mental "reward" pathways of such behavior may well be altered by hormones though, resulting in a reduced inclination to do it. It really depends on the reason for doing it. Some people get pleasure from dominating others. Some do it for the material rewards it might bring. Others do it because if they don't someone else will do it to them. Some people do it to create conflict just so they can feel something, anything.
Quote from: Viktor on September 14, 2017, 07:13:19 AM
I've seen women doing these exact same things. It's people - regardless of their sex - running roughshod over others because they can and because they feel nothing negative when they do. My own mother is most egotistical and overbearing person I know and the men (and women) around her in her professional life walk on eggshells with her because they don't want an earful. She openly mocks who she sees as stupid and 'beneath her' and has recently decided her lack of empathy is a fact for which she is not responsible. The idea this is some specifically male privilege or ego problem is incorrect.
Anyone who spends time with groups of women will soon spot the female equivalent of this in their midst.
Analogue? Sure. Equivalent? No. Men and women exist on spectra of social aggressiveness/passivity or dominance/submission, but if you think the distribution along those spectra is identical or even similar, I don't think you're paying attention.
For me it isn't ego, it being competitive. This has been evident when my wife and I do 10K races. She says her boobs and butt slow her up. I'm equaling out the odds with my transition.
Lol, Jessica
I've found that since it's neither part of female culture nor is it expected or welcome, it was quite easy and quite the pleasure to set it aside. If you plan on investing yourself in female culture and building friendships, macho nonsense, brinkmanship and alpha behavior is probably not going to be too welcome in most of your social circles.
Quote from: rmaddy on September 14, 2017, 11:28:52 AM
Analogue? Sure. Equivalent? No. Men and women exist on spectra of social aggressiveness/passivity or dominance/submission, but if you think the distribution along those spectra is identical or even similar, I don't think you're paying attention.
By equivalent I mean female equivalent of "alpha behavior" within their own group. Obviously not absolutely identical to male behavior.
Although I've seen violent women. Lived with them. Safe to say those ones were not behaving normally and had mental problems. Even so, I'm inclined to think there's ego and then there's pathological ego or pathological dominance, and that can occur in either sex.
Quote from: Viktor on September 14, 2017, 08:59:10 PM
By equivalent I mean female equivalent of "alpha behavior" within their own group. Obviously not absolutely identical to male behavior.
Although I've seen violent women. Lived with them. Safe to say those ones were not behaving normally and had mental problems. Even so, I'm inclined to think there's ego and then there's pathological ego or pathological dominance, and that can occur in either sex.
Of course. The difference is that even the sweetest, most-lovable teddy bear of a guy was raised in a society which rewarded him for speaking out, paid him 42% more than his female counterparts, thought him more capable as a potential employee, could imagine him as President, went to a high school that had a "soccer" team and a "women's soccer" team, and decided that his spouse should take his name. This is why I made the distinction that male ego wasn't the problem--you are correct in saying that women can have big egos too--
male privilege is the problem. Our otherwise huggable, amiable mensch doesn't even realize that he has it most of the time, let alone understand how it affects those around him.
By that same token there exists female privilege many women don't realize they have, and believe it or not certain kinds of toxic femininity a person can exert on others as well.
Good afternoon,
No, because your soul did not changed. You may become more caring though, but not a huge change. I have not changed much.
Regards,
Tsukiyoarts
I'm sorry, my what?
Quote from: rmaddy on September 16, 2017, 11:36:58 AM
I'm sorry, my what?
English isn't tsuki's first language.
Something happened and I lost my reply but Ill try again..;'
This is a fascinating discussion, and there have been many good reasoned responses so ill change that with my wittering's ;D
I've never had an issue with my male Ego as I don't think I have ever had much of one, with Alpha type brothers and father I never got the chance to develop one. I have always been more collaborative than competitive, and even now I'm not really changing my general out look on things. I do stuff and sometimes get rewarded, I don't have to be first or the best, but often are, as my judgements are more thought out and solid rather than quick actions and decisions done in order to improve my standing somewhere.
I have never got a buzz out of making someone feel worse than me, and actually prefer to help people achieve what they are truly capable of.
However, the subject is will it ever go. I think not completely, but possibly the best thing you could do is find a way to recognise when it starts to ramp up, and take actions, maybe walk away, or divert the conversation etc. Mind you I do have a female ego, especially when I have done my makeup well (I have a cataract in one eye they wont operate on yet so it generally goes wonky) and can look at myself as I see myself in my minds eye, if you know what I mean. Other than that I do get a boost out of helping, and advising where necessary.
None of us are perfect, but step back from yourself some time and look at how you are interacting with people around you, and if you see something that doesn't sit well with you, do something about it. If your Ego is causing others issues, you maybe need to recognise this and do something about it.
Anyway that's my meanderings, not exactly to point but maybe helpful.
p.s. I stand back from myself and usually howl in laughter at the messes and mistakes I make but don't see at the time...
Hugz
Katie :angel:
Quote from: rmaddy on September 16, 2017, 11:36:58 AM
I'm sorry, my what?
Haha sorry. English indeed is not my first language. Although I do not have a specific religion anymore, I did said soul. I could also had used essence, personality, individuality, etc. You body may change, your personality may change to a small degree; but basing on me and some others (I do not have more data about it), someone who is negative towards life, will remain mostly negative; who is positive regarding life, will remain mostly positive, and so on.
If my writing is still flawed enough to not be understood, just call me, and I will try saying with other words. I do need to pratice this, and shifting my learning to japanese from english due to needs is not helping haha.
Humorously,
Tsukiyoarts
Quote from: RobynD on August 02, 2017, 06:21:21 PM
I'm not sure it is ego, being stereotypical or what, but i have changed considerably. Less competitive but not completely so, less worried about possessiveness, less fear of not having power and being in control, more willing to let others lead in some situations etc.
Great post, I'm not sure it's ego ether, I see it in my hubby, he just likes being in control, but not in a ''bad way'' he likes making decisions and ''showing leadership'' and being the ''man of the house'' I just let him at it, and it takes the pressure off me, we'll sit down and discuss everything, but the final decision will be made by him, if I was still a guy maybe I would be that way, but I'm not, I'm less stressed, I much prefer being a relaxed woman than a stressed out guy.
Quote from: pretty pauline on September 16, 2017, 03:50:30 PM
Great post, I'm not sure it's ego ether, I see it in my hubby, he just likes being in control, but not in a ''bad way'' he likes making decisions and ''showing leadership'' and being the ''man of the house'' I just let him at it, and it takes the pressure off me, we'll sit down and discuss everything, but the final decision will be made by him, if I was still a guy maybe I would be that way, but I'm not, I'm less stressed, I much prefer being a relaxed woman than a stressed out guy.
I relate to this post even though my partner is female. It used to be I wanted control over everything. I only now know how annoying I must have been. Now, she makes 90 % of the decisions and I am more comfortable with this. It took a while for her to get used to it. She likes it though.
Monica
Pretty- I so agree , part of me ejects cis male authority in my relationship but I wont be walked over ever . Its our life so make sure ty make the best of it,
luv n Hugz
Katie
While leading Boeing Engineers in DCAC, I learned dealing with egos is the biggest obstacle for success. Mostly it was males who said. "We never did that before" It turned a two year project in to five years and then we more or less abandoned the Billion dollar project. because each facility wanted their piece of the pie. If I could have worked exclusively with women it would have been a lot smoother.
Quote from: Katie Again on September 16, 2017, 05:56:02 PM
Pretty- I so agree , part of me ejects cis male authority in my relationship but I wont be walked over ever . Its our life so make sure ty make the best of it,
luv n Hugz
Katie
I do make the best of it Katie, it's been a very interesting discussion. They say ''opposites attract'' my husband is a very masculine, macho, alpha male and very proud of his manliness with a forest of hair on his chest, something I could never be and not want to be. Although 95% of decisions are and will be made by him, I still get my way on somethings I really want by flashing my eyelashes and using my feminine charm. He is very much a man's man but a gentleman that has always and completely accepted me as a woman
Quote from: tsukiyoarts on September 16, 2017, 03:44:51 PM
Haha sorry. English indeed is not my first language. Although I do not have a specific religion anymore, I did said soul. I could also had used essence, personality, individuality, etc.
Apologies. I was going for the sarcastic punchline. Based on your response, your English was more than sufficient to grasp the punch line. Cheers!