At what age did you start HRT? What difficulties did you face? Any tips etc?
Unless people where I live got very polite (unlikely :) )I don't get clocked on street or in short interactions. (although I feel I look unusual to some people maybe I'm being paranoid) I plan to return to university(in a few months) after mostly staying at home for a few years and I feel like my voice and some facial features will out me in longer term. I probably wouldn't face anything too terrible but I'd rather be seen as any other woman. Is it possible? I will have FFS anyway for my forehead and nose but that's probably in a year.. Maybe I should get a fringe or something :)
I'm 22 and been on HRT for 1.5 years by the way.
Oh and one thing that might be to my advantage is that most people in my country aren't used to the idea of trans people in their normal daily lives.
I started my HRT when I was 36 and I don't have ffs either. Some of my classmates have no clue until I told them, neither did some of my friends.
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There are 80 staff in my workplace and none of them know I'm trans, neither do the parents of any of the kids I teach or any of my neighbours. Only my friends know because I tell them and I've not had FFS. If there's one thing I've found that helps massively it's the voice. If you can nail a feminine voice you're sorted. My HRT journey is long and complicated but I'm 23 and been on a low dose for 5 years then recently started upping it to a good level.
Many women have some masculine features. It's even considered attractive. Mostly I look at women my own age and many of them develop more masculine features as they age.
I think a lot of us come into this not just wanting to be the women we are inside, but wanting to be truly beautiful. That's a much harder hurdle and many cis women get there the same way we do. Surgery. Make the changes that make you happy. Don't let someone else tell you what you should or shouldn't do to your own body.
And that unfamiliarity thing? Definitely! Stealth is becoming much harder in areas educated about us.
:
April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!
Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.
They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!
Think outside the voice box!
I understand cis women have some masculine features too but if multiple things add up people might suspect, even for a cis woman. Or maybe 50 people have no clue but one person will figure it out and start gossiping. I should improve or hide some features and hope for the best.
Quote from: SashaGrace on August 04, 2017, 10:36:23 AM
There are 80 staff in my workplace and none of them know I'm trans, neither do the parents of any of the kids I teach or any of my neighbours. Only my friends know because I tell them and I've not had FFS. If there's one thing I've found that helps massively it's the voice. If you can nail a feminine voice you're sorted. My HRT journey is long and complicated but I'm 23 and been on a low dose for 5 years then recently started upping it to a good level.
My voice is probably passable but not too feminine. And there is always more tricky stuff like couching, sneezing, talking louder when necessary etc. I guess there's still some time to improve. :)
I started HRT over 3½ years ago at age 43. I haven't had any surgeries yet and no one knows unless I tell them and I'm also over 6'5". Even when I had a mammogram last October, the technician could not believe I was trans. She saw the HRT on my chart (but missed the transgender part I had written on my intake papers) and asked when my last period was and after I told her I don't have periods because of no ovaries or uterus she asked when I had a hysterectomy.
I feel like I won the genetic lottery, but there are some that need FFS, but many who do not. Voice and mannerisms also a huge factor and are just an important as the physical parts.
Sure... I'm 31 years old, on HRT for about 20 months now. I got my passing privilege after 6 months into HRT and have enjoyed it ever since. No FFS, nor do I plan on getting any.
Better yet, I'm getting lots of male attention, depending a bit on what I'm wearing and the amount of legs/cleavage I show.... Things also improved massively since I was post-op, somehow it changed how I radiate and men have started reacting even better!
In any case, being hot and passable while not having FFS is very possible :D
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on August 04, 2017, 11:27:00 AM
I started HRT over 3½ years ago at age 43. I haven't had any surgeries yet and no one knows unless I tell them and I'm also over 6'5". Even when I had a mammogram last October, the technician could not believe I was trans. She saw the HRT on my chart (but missed the transgender part I had written on my intake papers) and asked when my last period was and after I told her I don't have periods because of no ovaries or uterus she asked when I had a hysterectomy.
I feel like I won the genetic lottery, but there are some that need FFS, but many who do not. Voice and mannerisms also a huge factor and are just an important as the physical parts.
Oh I had a lot of similar experiences. Most recently the nurse asked me whether or not I was pregnant before a pre-op X-Ray for my SRS in Thailand. For a woman who had to go through male puberty I'm doing ok too. :) I am more worried about people figuring it out in time.
Do you girls think a masculine forehead is a big "tell"? There is a lot variation for most things but I feel like it's quite rare for cis women to have a masculine forehead.
Began HRT in very early preteens. I am now in later years, but never encountered problems because I had no FFS. Most of the girls I have known did not have any either, while some opted for silicone facial enhancement (which I would tell anyone not to do). I have been married for quite some time so I do not get out in the world for 'dating', but I've always had highly visible jobs where much interaction with people across all professions, genders and age is necessary -- and still no problems other than simply vanity issues like the beginnings of slight crows feet, smile lines, etc... the usual stuff. I'm all for FFS though, if you want it and can afford it and if you feel it will make things easier for you.
I seem to get by without FFS. I'm almost 62 and full time for going on 2 years and becoming more and more stealth as time goes on. I look at myself and feel that some people must suspect but no one says anything. So either everyone is very nice or there are things other than my face that help me pass.
Actually I believe it has a lot to do with attitude and voice training is a must. If you can get those 2 things down then some may suspect but they won't know for sure unless you tell and I don't tell.
I started HRT when I was 56 been on it a little over two years. I started a new job a year ago after I changed my name and gender on my documents. I have not had any surgeries and I am stealth at work, hard to believe from my picture I know. I think my age helps but I think the key factor is my demeanor. Confidence and attitude go along way.
Steph
Quote from: Charley on August 04, 2017, 12:59:44 PM
Actually I believe it has a lot to do with attitude and voice training is a must. If you can get those 2 things down then some may suspect but they won't know for sure unless you tell and I don't tell.
That makes sense, ty. :)
Quote from: Dee Marshall on August 04, 2017, 10:38:55 AM
Many women have some masculine features. It's even considered attractive. Mostly I look at women my own age and many of them develop more masculine features as they age.
However, you rarely look at a cis women and can't tell it's a woman. It does happen, but it's not that common.
Some of the cues are very subtle. But it's not hard for humans to determine someone's sex by looking at their face. We are sexually dimorphic. So we evolved to recognize these features.
I can't pass even with makeup unless it's dark and people see me from a distance. Lol.
I should be getting FFS early next year. [emoji3]
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I still get the same paranoia. 😊 Mostly because I get stared at a lot and I have no idea why. No matter what it's ma'am or miss so I too often wonder what's going on. Why the stares if I am not being clocked? Are they just being incredibly nice?
Anyway, it matters less and less even if it is disconcerting.
Voice and attitude. Voice is above all when you are speaking but... how many people see us in a day's time that we never speak to? There are lots of resources for voice and the attitude is just too much to go into without a great deal of time to do it.
It's more than posture or the way we walk. It's a way of fitting to the space available. Men tend to be where they are at and we fit into the empty spots. Sometime I watch large groups of people and it looks to me like someone is pouring two different size balls into a barrel. The larger balls settle in and the small ones fill in around them. I know that sounds stupid but that is the attitude. Lol 😆 Not that one thing but hundreds of tiny things just like that. In my opinion we have to view it as intangible not a thing to improve or acquire but a mindset that will slowly take over as we go along. ! IF ! We follow the examples of the other women who have been doing it their whole life.
I think for me it is other women that make me think that I pass mostly. Whether it's settling in on the seat next to me in the waiting room, a few simple comments as we are looking at the same thing in the grocery store or like happened to me at lunch today. Two young mothers at the table next to us, 5 children total. The smallest is acting up as they are getting ready to leave, the next oldest that can barely walk starts to show me what she has been coloring in her book. The mother looks at me like, "Is that okay?" I just nodded. She kinda gave me a grateful smile and continued to get all the sticky stuff off of a wriggling baby. It's just a comfort level that goes both ways that makes me think that maybe I do pass, and people are just staring because I am funny looking or something.
That is what I think transition was about for me, that attitude, the internal and not external. I didn't even know that was what I was looking for, that sense of belonging.
Lol, My 2 cents anyway. 😉
Michelle
I started hrt when I was17. I'm 19 now and I pass 100% . I have never had ffs. I thought I needed it but my Dr, my dad and the people here said I didn't need it. It seems like something miraculous but ffs doesn't mean you are guaranteed beauty. Only a more feminine face. It's a totally brutal surgery. If you don't really need it it seems like a lot of pain to endure that you don't need to go through.
Julia
Quote from: Julia1996 on August 04, 2017, 04:55:17 PM
I started hrt when I was17. I'm 19 now and I pass 100% . I have never had ffs. I thought I needed it but my Dr, my dad and the people here said I didn't need it. It seems like something miraculous but ffs doesn't mean you are guaranteed beauty. Only a more feminine face. It's a totally brutal surgery. If you don't really need it it seems like a lot of pain to endure that you don't need to go through.
Julia
I want to undo the damage male puberty did to my face so I'll have a few procedures eventually for my own dysphoria, even if I'm not getting clocked. But all these posts give me hope that I can stay stealth before that too. :)
Quote from: xFreya on August 04, 2017, 11:50:22 AM
Do you girls think a masculine forehead is a big "tell"? There is a lot variation for most things but I feel like it's quite rare for cis women to have a masculine forehead.
it is. this is one of the first thing i look at when looking at other womans. Supraorbital ridge bone and hairline. Sure.. there are cis woman with badlness but its not common and cis gender hairline is built differently than male. This is why i had forehead type 1 surgery last year and that i am getting hair transplant surgery in 3 week to create illusion of a smaller forehead/face and to have a female hairline shape.
I only had the nose corrected as it had a hump on it and the passages were restricted. I suspect my jaw is a bit on the strong side and I have a male brow but hair has covered much of the problem. It seems to be good enough because I am getting ma'am by strangers.
Quote from: Legit on August 04, 2017, 05:37:35 PM
it is. this is one of the first thing i look at when looking at other womans. Supraorbital ridge bone and hairline. Sure.. there are cis woman with badlness but its not common and cis gender hairline is built differently than male. This is why i had forehead type 1 surgery last year and that i am getting hair transplant surgery in 3 week to create illusion of a smaller forehead/face and to have a female hairline shape.
My hairline is feminine since I started young but not young enough to avoid brow bossing. It's my biggest concern tbh.
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on August 04, 2017, 11:27:00 AMI feel like I won the genetic lottery, but there are some that need FFS, but many who do not. Voice and mannerisms also a huge factor and are just an important as the physical parts.
Quote from: SashaGrace on August 04, 2017, 10:36:23 AMIf there's one thing I've found that helps massively it's the voice. If you can nail a feminine voice you're sorted.
A really good voice can reverse a clocking!
It's funny to see a stranger stumbling over themselves to apologize after an inadvertent misgendering. (And which shows how people
really think about misgendering.)
Quote from: xFreya on August 04, 2017, 11:50:22 AM
Do you girls think a masculine forehead is a big "tell"? There is a lot variation for most things but I feel like it's quite rare for cis women to have a masculine forehead.
It's a very striking feature, and I rarely see it, maybe 1 in 200 women (if not more) -- and I see a lot of different women day in and day out with my job.
In the women I've seen brow bossing, though, that was the only "masculine" feature to be found. It's not a tell in of itself. I still gendered these women as women because everything else was obvious.
But it's so rare for any of us to only have brow bossing to worry about.
I do think correcting brow bossing has the biggest effect on facial perception.
Quote from: FinallyMichelle on August 04, 2017, 03:33:04 PMI still get the same paranoia. 😊 Mostly because I get stared at a lot and I have no idea why. No matter what it's ma'am or miss so I too often wonder what's going on. Why the stares if I am not being clocked? Are they just being incredibly nice?
Before I had facial surgery, I noticed something very similar. I passed well enough before it, mind you, mainly because of my voice (and having long hair, kept since I turned 18), but there was always a "lag" time in interacting with someone new, as if part of their subconscious mind needed extra time to resolve the ambiguity of my features.
That "delay" completely disappeared after facial surgery.
Quote from: Charley on August 04, 2017, 12:59:44 PMActually I believe it has a lot to do with attitude and voice training is a must. If you can get those 2 things down then some may suspect but they won't know for sure unless you tell and I don't tell.
This is what it takes for long-term non-disclosure, given a baseline of passability.
Quote from: FinallyMichelle on August 04, 2017, 03:33:04 PMIn my opinion we have to view it as intangible not a thing to improve or acquire but a mindset that will slowly take over as we go along. ! IF ! We follow the examples of the other women who have been doing it their whole life.
This is what "transsexing" really is.
I started hormones when I was 20. I think the biggest problem I had was myself. Had I wanted to be a cute anime girld, I would be very sad and dissappointed now. Thanks the gods I came to accept the big, androgynous girl which fits my body better. I'd suggest you do the same. Instead of having an ideal image of the perfect girl that you may or may not achieve (which happens to a lot of cis girls also) be open to everything, find what suits you best and what will get the most of what you have. This is probably one of the reasons for not even considering FFS.
Voice is a big part, but don't worry about your pitch. I speak in a rather low voice for a female, but nobody has ever expressed any suspicion that I was trans. The important things for me are modulation and resonance, the first is how much you vary your tone or pitch while you speak, and the second is wich part of your body vibrates when you voice comes out. Look up for voice exercices in the internet if you haven't yet. It can take some time to discover the correct technique.
Remember you can always hide or disguise the features you don't like or think that will get you clocked. For example you can disguise your forehead with a haircut, like a fringe. I don't know how your nose is, but there can be something to do to take attention away from it.
Personally, I don't live stealth, I just don't tell if I'm not asked. Unless I consider someone important in my life.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on August 04, 2017, 09:29:46 PM
It's a very striking feature, and I rarely see it, maybe 1 in 200 women (if not more) -- and I see a lot of different women day in and day out with my job.
In the women I've seen brow bossing, though, that was the only "masculine" feature to be found. It's not a tell in of itself. I still gendered these women as women because everything else was obvious.
But it's so rare for any of us to only have brow bossing to worry about.
I do think correcting brow bossing has the biggest effect on facial perception.
My mom always points out that cis women can have this or that. But if I have like 2-3 masculine or androgynous features in addition to brow bossing I believe people will suspect, even if they don't realize what's wrong at first.
Quote
Before I had facial surgery, I noticed something very similar. I passed well enough before it, mind you, mainly because of my voice (and having long hair, kept since I turned 18), but there was always a "lag" time in interacting with someone new, as if part of their subconscious mind needed extra time to resolve the ambiguity of my features.
That "delay" completely disappeared after facial surgery.
This is what I'm hoping. :)
Quote from: Lady Lisandra on August 04, 2017, 09:58:52 PM
I started hormones when I was 20. I think the biggest problem I had was myself. Had I wanted to be a cute anime girld, I would be very sad and dissappointed now. Thanks the gods I came to accept the big, androgynous girl which fits my body better. I'd suggest you do the same. Instead of having an ideal image of the perfect girl that you may or may not achieve (which happens to a lot of cis girls also) be open to everything, find what suits you best and what will get the most of what you have. This is probably one of the reasons for not even considering FFS.
Voice is a big part, but don't worry about your pitch. I speak in a rather low voice for a female, but nobody has ever expressed any suspicion that I was trans. The important things for me are modulation and resonance, the first is how much you vary your tone or pitch while you speak, and the second is wich part of your body vibrates when you voice comes out. Look up for voice exercices in the internet if you haven't yet. It can take some time to discover the correct technique.
Remember you can always hide or disguise the features you don't like or think that will get you clocked. For example you can disguise your forehead with a haircut, like a fringe. I don't know how your nose is, but there can be something to do to take attention away from it.
Personally, I don't live stealth, I just don't tell if I'm not asked. Unless I consider someone important in my life.
I just want a more feminine version of my own face, what it could have been.
I can get a fringe as a temporary solution but I'm not sure if it will work for my face. ???
I've been trying to improve my voice for a loong time but I'm stuck in a point where it's just passable but not the kinda good that would reverse a clocking. My starting point was gender ambigous anyway I don't know why I can't improve more.
Hey xFreya! Really interesting topic, kuddos :) but first, I think we gotta define what stealth is. Is it living without being asked about your previous history, because nobody can "tell" you ever were any other way? Or rather nobody in your life knowing about your past? Or something in between?
I think to be completely stealth depends more on narrative than just passing. I started HRT at 18, I was always light built, had a fatty face and a really high voice (which gave me real trouble but now it's blessing). My parents didn't support me until I was 19 and managed to change my name, as I was working as girl but without my name changed. It's a tough situation, your boss has to be really understanding not to tell anyone. Anyhow, somehow I was able to get my documents changed so I am now studying nursing. My policy is not to tell anyone, unless I'm asked. The thing is I'm never asked. Really, things have the meaning and importance we give them.
Honestly, I just wanted to carry on life without having to explain my existence to people, which is what I was always doing before HRT. I feel like being open about this would really be another cage I would get stuck in. That's the last thing I want now. To me, this change was really organic. With the exception of some close friends and my family, I don't talk about it. And even if people know, I still don't talk about it. As an example, since my parents are paying for SRS and BA, I offered myself to help in their small company. Most of the people there knew me since little. The first day I entered there since HRT was this Thursday. I acted natural and like I had always acted (helps that I have been feminine always) and smiled at everybody. It was really nice, actually. I learned a lot about the company and interacted with people and conversed with women who thought I didn't remembre them but I did :) and asked about their kids. I got mostly compliments.
To sum up, things do have the meaning we give to them. I don't give much importance to transition because it will be done soon and I did this to be able to live life as whole not get stuck in another closet. I just want to grow as a person, find hobbies and expand my abilities.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on August 04, 2017, 09:29:46 PM
It's a very striking feature, and I rarely see it, maybe 1 in 200 women (if not more) -- and I see a lot of different women day in and day out with my job.
In the women I've seen brow bossing, though, that was the only "masculine" feature to be found. It's not a tell in of itself. I still gendered these women as women because everything else was obvious.
But it's so rare for any of us to only have brow bossing to worry about.
I do think correcting brow bossing has the biggest effect on facial perception.
Side note: Sophia, this is really true. It's a striking feature. I definitely have slight brow bossing :( and a mediterrean nose I want to get rid of. This is what mostly concerns me, as I pass now even with those features but as I age that may not hold true anymore. I don't know!! There's no lag for people to gender me. And even those who know say nobody else would know, unless told. However, this feature makes me dysphoric and it's all too common in trans women. I can't really get a fringe as that will really emphasize my nose. But I have big eyes I love and I think brow bossing downplays my eyes.
Quote from: Aurorasky on August 05, 2017, 04:48:43 AM
Hey xFreya! Really interestinbg topic, kuddos :) but first, I think we gotta define what stealth is. Is it living without being asked about your previous history, because nobody can "tell" you ever were any other way? Or rather nobody in your life knowing about your past? Or something in between?
I think the first one. My relatives, some friends of my mother and some old friends know already. But I don't want it to come up with new people, unless they are really close maybe. Most people will see me differently if it does. Even the sympathetic or indifferent people, unless they are educated about it. And I can't educate everyone. Like you I want to focus on different things. I don't want to have to explain my story and science of these to people so they can maybe see me as who I am. :)