As some of you know, i have recently suffered from a burning vagina, which made my sex life literally hell. I had consulted with a doctor who presctibed me an ointment for two weeks. But as things didn't get better I decided to consult with a gynecologist.
I had my appointment.earlier today and for the first time in my life I decided to disclose I am transgender to doctor (apart from.my former endo). This is because the issue is particularly relevant. First he saaid he would never have guessed I was transgender which was rather a compliment. Then he went on.to say "a gynecologist is a medical doctor that specializes in women's reproductive systems, not men's genitalia... unfortunately, you still have an inverted penis it's not a vagina"
I was so shocked that I picked up my handbag and left without saying a word! Now I realise I should have said something. I feel down and depressed at the moment.
Has anyone been through a similar experience?
Ouch. So sorry for your bad experience. I think you leaving is already a very bold and direct statement. I hope you find a more accepting doctor.
Screw them, you have a vagina.
Moni
I'm so sorry you had to experience this.
I'm now at the point where I practice non-disclosure with doctors, too.
If i'm honest.
And I'm going to be, Any doctor in that situation saying something like that, implies they have that job to touch "womans" bits by desire to do so. And thus how and what they consider woman's bits effect their desire to do their job.
otherwise their opinion on what they were working on wouldn't effect them doing the job.
It really irritates me.
Quote from: Ritana on August 17, 2017, 12:56:15 PM
Then he went on.to say "a gynecologist is a medical doctor that specializes in women's reproductive systems, not men's genitalia... unfortunately, you still have an inverted penis it's not a vagina"
If he is part of an organization/HMO/clinic etc report him to the higher-ups.
I have never had that expereince, but before SRS I was advised to line up a local gyn in case there were problems afterwards... My spouse's gyn refused as she said she knew nothing about TS vaginas... But that is a lot less offensive that what that doctor said!!!
He was obviously speaking out of personal prejudice, and as I said if the is a part of practice group he should be reported to them. He should NEVER have spoken that way to you.
- Karen
Hi Ritana
The ignorant live in bliss...
Looks like you came across a bad one, my first instinct is to want to "put him straight" on a couple of points. But then the other part says this Dr has probably had these feeling for some time and what he said is just so full of ignorance. No amount of facts will change this view.
Quote from: Ritana on August 17, 2017, 12:56:15 PM
I was so shocked that I picked up my handbag and left without saying a word! Now I realise I should have said something.
Actually, that sounds to me like a really classy way to handle the situation. He really didn't deserve a response or even a second thought from you.
I want to believe he was talking about the difference in the tissues, yet he should be able to help anyway.
Also, even if I want to believe that... It sounds more like him being a bigot.
I agree with the sentiment of reporting him. In the event he does not have "higher ups" that he reports to, there is always the State Medical Board.
I have had a couple of problems down there and the treatment was exactly the same as a CIS women would have received with a similar condition. One thing that helps is if the doctor is a surgeon. Some women are born without a vagina and the surgery to provide them with one is very similar to ours so the doctors who do surgery should be very familiar with us.
The more I think of this, the more it has to be bigotry. I asked my surgeon about my need for gyn. services. I asked if there were any special skills or training that a doctor would need to provide this service. The answer was no. I think you handled this perfectly. Sorry you experienced a jerk like this.
Moni
Omg Ritana I'm so sorry you went through that. Aside from the satisfaction of telling him what an ass he is I don't know as upbraiding him would have accomplished much; someone that narrow minded is certainly not going to change just because a patient teaches him something. I'd bet that that response was motivated out of anger that he'd not clocked you, i.e. he was reacting to his own ignorance with anger.
This to me is comparable to the nightmare of a sex partner reacting badly to finding out someone is trans after the fact, and equally inexcusable.
So I'm in agreement that your best option is to complain loudly to whatever organizations this idiot belongs to. Of course I don't know if you're living in an area where his behavior would generally be considered excusable -- where I live and especially in the medical practice I go to I can promise you that would be a firing offence.
Most of all hugs and accept my wishes that you may find a doc who will treat you with the compassion we all deserve.
Quote from: Ritana on August 17, 2017, 12:56:15 PM
As some of you know, i have recently suffered from a burning vagina, which made my sex life literally hell. I had consulted with a doctor who presctibed me an ointment for two weeks. But as things didn't get better I decided to consult with a gynecologist.
I had my appointment.earlier today and for the first time in my life I decided to disclose I am transgender to doctor (apart from.my former endo). This is because the issue is particularly relevant. First he he would never have guessed I was transgender which was rather a compliment. Then he went on.to say "a gynecologist is a medical doctor that specializes in women's reproductive systems, not men's genitalia... unfortunately, you still have an inverted penis it's not a vagina"
I was so shocked that I picked up my handbag and left without saying a word! Now I realise I should have said something. I feel down and depressed at the moment.
Has anyone been through a similar experience?
I am sorry you had to go through that. However I see where he's coming from to am extent, I mean it looks the same but your vagina does have some anatomical differences from a ciswomans. That being said I'm not sure what a "male doctor" would do with it, your best bet is just to find a new gyno.
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Quote from: Ritana on August 17, 2017, 12:56:15 PM
I was so shocked that I picked up my handbag and left without saying a word! Now I realise I should have said something. I feel down and depressed at the moment.
What do you wish you had said? Perhaps writing those words down and sharing them here may help you heal.
So sorry that this happened to you. :(
I woke up this morning feeling down and depressed. I think being a ts is curse. Sorry girls!
Quote from: Ritana on August 18, 2017, 05:13:03 AM
I woke up this morning feeling down and depressed. I think being a ts is curse. Sorry girls!
It's not a bed of roses for sure...
- Karen
Sorry you faced this. He was a jerk. I'd also report him to the medical board for saying such a horrible thing. In some states, discrimination against someone because of gender identity for medical services is illegal, and he could be in even more trouble.
Yeah, screw that guy.
Thank hou, girls!
Quote from: Ritana on August 18, 2017, 05:13:03 AM
I woke up this morning feeling down and depressed. I think being a ts is curse. Sorry girls!
Especially when we get down, there are times we all say this, I think. Mourn that experience, get pissed at it, whatever you have to do, then you do what we all do, move on, rise above it. Don't give an idiot the power to take away the good you feel about yourself. Kick his *ss by loving yourself.
Moni
I bet the 'doctor' won't forget to send you a bill for his 'services'...
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Quote from: Ritana on August 18, 2017, 05:13:03 AM
I woke up this morning feeling down and depressed. I think being a ts is curse. Sorry girls!
Oh honey, I am so sorry <hug>. Forget him. He's a loser. No one should be a doctor without compassion for patients. There are so many good people who like you just as you are.
I would punch him
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I totally feel your pain. I have had almost the same experience with a few doctors in Melbourne. Probably one of the worst was a female surgeon i contacted about a labiaplasty about 2 years post op SRS (mine arent that bad but I just wanted to see what my options were). As soon as she knew I was ts, she refused to see me as aparently i don't have labia... go figure....
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Quote from: Ritana on August 18, 2017, 05:13:03 AM
I woke up this morning feeling down and depressed. I think being a ts is curse. Sorry girls!
Maybe so. But being a woman is a gift and a treasure.
Ugh, that is so disgusting. Girl you are beautiful. No matter what he told you, you have a vagina. Vaginas comes in all different, shape, sizes, depth, and even tissues. A gyno specializes in all forms of vaginas, not just CISginas.
PS. I hope you were able to find a proper Gyno.
Definitely should be reported, I wouldn't let him away with that. I never had a dreadful experience like that. But a few years ago I had to visit a gyno as I had a small problem down there and disclosed my history, he was a real gentleman and was amazed and surprised I was trans, and said it was a new medical experience for him as he never treated a trans woman before, I was his first.I don't usually disclose unless it's necessary.
Wow that is so...Ignorant. From what I've read, SRS gives trans women pretty much the same thing cis women have and any gynecologist should be able to work with it.
So sorry this happened to you.
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Thank you, girls. I'm over it now. We have to love ourselves and not expect validation from society.
Hugs,
Ritana
From a medical perspective, and as a former biologist -
what he said might have bothered you, but biologically speaking the epithelium and structure of your vagina is not going to be identical to that of a natal woman's and therefore you are not going to suffer the exact same range of issues they potentially suffer from and that a regular gynecologist is trained to treat. Is it possible for a transwoman to get uterine fibroids in there, for example? I would imagine not - or if they can, they are not going to be of the uterine kind because there is no uterus to originate them. Are the sort of infections one might get there the same and are they treated the same? Is a transwoman as likely to develop cervical cancer on non-cervical epithelium? Transwomen are not going to experience menstruation issues. And so on. Some aspects may be the same for both cis and transwomen but many will not be. Some gyns might never have been advised on any issue relating to transgender women's vaginas. If I were a doctor who had not received this training - and I will be perfectly honest here - I would not be confident in treating you until I got that training or was at least advised on the similarity in ailments between the groups ciswomen and transwomen and efficacy of treatment of the latter via the manner of the former. Otherwise I would be "guessing", possibly putting my trans patient at risk.
Taking offense at this sort of thing is potentially seriously counterproductive - you must acknowledge the medical difference to some degree between oneself and a natal woman for your own safety, and I would expect the gynecologist to do so as well - it's his job. Reporting him or trying to get him fired or some such is only going to deprive other women of a health professional and put the man on the dole. Is that productive?
All these comments wanting him reported, punched etc - how does this help? Was the man actually rude or was he acknowledging his inexperience in the realm of treating transgender individuals, because frankly if I were in your position I'd rather the man did this than treated me without expertise or on an assumption, and then I would try to contact another such professional with more experience or one willing to look into the matter for me. Technically what he stated was correct, if you were born male you do not have uterine and cervical tissue, you have different tissue in there, and what that tissue is is going to depend on where your vagina was sourced from on your body. If I went to a urologist for a check up and they told me they didn't know how to deal with transmen's penises I would understand and appreciate the warning not rage and think about getting them fired. I would if they were abjectly rude and dishonest in their manner but what he stated was not untrue if indeed you had penile inversion as your method of forming your vagina, and perhaps he thought it was the best way he could be upfront about his inexperience. Rather than walking out you perhaps could have asked for his advice on whom to see about your problems and he may have had a recommendation. Each medical professional is different and makes judgements in their own way. Just last week I dealt with one who said he didn't feel qualified to deal with my specific problem and referred me to a medical practice that would. I am glad he did, and didn't go ahead treating me for something he was not confident in dealing with, because he might have screwed up the treatment.
It's going to take some time for the medical field to catch up with both the number of people knowledgeable in our issues and problems and for the list of our specific ailments to be better consolidated because there seems to be an exponential number of trans people coming forward for treatment and very few doctors with specialist knowledge of us. We will have to be patient.
I have no intention of keeping my history from doctors if I require any serious or invasive procedures, as that will only potentially threaten my life if they are unaware of the fact I do or do not have certain organs and requirements relating to my trans condition. To those who suggest never telling your medical professional what your real situation is, I would suggest you are advising people to put themselves in danger. Of course not all visits to the doctor will require disclosure, but to suggest someone never does, especially for a serious/related condition or problem, I think that is highly irresponsible and could potentially lead to the worst.
By all means be irritated if someone has properly disrespected you, but to state medical or biological truth is not disrespectful, nor is it to claim inexperience in an area. Which is what this sounds like it was. If he was truly a bigot I imagine he'd have had much more to say on the matter and thrown in a few actual jibes. As you tell it, it sounds like he complimented you, and made apparent his lack of knowledge or admission of his thinking there was some other specialist you should be seeing rather than him for the treatment. We really ought to be honest with the state of affairs regarding trans treatment - i.e. we need more proactive back and forth between ourselves and doctors and work toward solving the issue, not being offended because they don't know enough yet or aren't quite sure how to deal with us.
I think op is over this now but generally speaking, while a trans woman cannot have all the potential problems a cis woman can, most vaginal problems she could have should be familiar to a gynecologist I think?
Regardless if the doctor says something like "I don't have any experience with this so I'm afraid I may not be qualified to treat you" and maybe refer her to someone it should be perfectly okay, saying "you have an inverted penis" is just rude and not even entirely true.
I imagine if it was a cis woman who was born with MRKH and had vaginoplasty the doctor wouldn't be acting the same.
If a urologist said to me "you don't have a real penis" or "since you don't have an actual penis", that would not be what I wanted to hear but it would be true. I would not have a biological male's penis with all the exact functioning of one.
That said, depending on the issue I went in for he may or may not be able to treat me. If I was going in for some erectile difficulty his ability to help might be very limited. If I was going in for some treatment regards a UTI of the urethra or kidney issues there might well be lots of common ground there and he could help me. It depends on the issue I went in for, doesn't it?
What he said belies his inexperience. In that I wouldn't be offended. I doubt an actual bigot would bother to compliment a transwoman on her femininity, as the doctor did to the OP.
The doctor says he would never have guessed, we don't know if it was actually meant as a compliment.
And the doctor didnt say he personally doesnt have experience with this, he's saying it shouldnt be a gynecologist's job to treat a trans woman, in a patronizing and rude way too. Whose job should it be? Despite some tissue differences it's the same organ with mostly same functions with often same possible problems and diagnostic tools and treatments. If any difference from a natal vagina becomes relevant then work with an SRS surgeon or more experienced gynecologist, but categorically denying trans patients from gynecology is just wrong.
If a doctor says "you dont have a real penis/vagina it is not just hurtful, it doesnt necessarily mean anything.
In a similar situation I would probably just walk out too.
Quote from: xFreya on November 18, 2017, 07:28:37 PM
The doctor says he would never have guessed, we don't know if it was actually meant as a compliment.
And the doctor didnt say he personally doesnt have experience with this, he's saying it shouldnt be a gynecologist's job to treat a trans woman, in a patronizing and rude way too. Whose job should it be? Despite some tissue differences it's the same organ with mostly same functions with often same possible problems and diagnostic tools and treatments. If any difference from a natal vagina becomes relevant then work with an SRS surgeon or more experienced gynecologist, but categorically denying trans patients from gynecology is just wrong.
If a doctor says "you dont have a real penis/vagina it is not just hurtful, it doesnt necessarily mean anything.
In a similar situation I would probably just walk out too.
As unfortunate as it sounds, the gyno was technically correct and whilst some issues will have similar sources and treatments, many of them wont - and some will be completely out of scope for a gyno. And no, they do not have the same function, nor are all the issues actually all the similar. I'd imagine a gyno would have some difficulty in diagnosing lichen sclerosus if it appeared in a neovagina, just as an example..
I know I'm taking an unpopular stance here, but I'm with the gyno.. I won't comment on what they said specifically, as we only have the OP's recount of the event, but he was being factually and medically correct. The OP's emotional response also did her no favours - or the rest of the community for that matter; she's just given the gyno a reason not to become educated on treating trans people.
Quote from: kelly_aus on November 20, 2017, 06:37:13 PM
As unfortunate as it sounds, the gyno was technically correct and whilst some issues will have similar sources and treatments, many of them wont - and some will be completely out of scope for a gyno. And no, they do not have the same function, nor are all the issues actually all the similar. I'd imagine a gyno would have some difficulty in diagnosing lichen sclerosus if it appeared in a neovagina, just as an example..
Many? Really? I think such conditions would be rare...
Most common issues with post-ops are yeast infections, UTI's (my GP prefers all his female patients go to a gyn for those), and vaginal tears...
And for the uncommon ones, what type of doctor would be any better, as well as have the experience with the more common types of vaginal issues a post-op might have?
I had to look up lichen sclerosus.
From the Mayo Clinic website:
Quote
Lichen sclerosus can affect skin anywhere on your body. But it most often involves skin of the vulva, foreskin of the penis or skin around the anus.
So a gyn should be familiar with the condition. even if not inside of a vagina...
We are simply NOT that unique medically if one thinks about it ...
That said, in general we can get by with just GPs... but if I had a vaginal tear I would MUCH rather have a gyn deal with it than a GP.
- Karen
Kelly, Victor I'm sorry ignorance is hardly any excuse for unprofessional and insulting behavior on the part of an MD.
And thank you Viktor, no need to compound the ignorance of this doc by putting forward your incorrect assumptions about the difference between vaginal and penile skin. In fact the only difference in the vaginal lining is that in natal females that skin responds to estrogen and produces some lubrication. It's still skin and it's healthy state is the same, i.e. colonized by microflora consisting of primarily lactobacillus.
Furthermore most gyns would have patients with vaginal agenisis, a condition that most gyns will in fact encounter as it's incidence is about 1:2000 population. Vaginoplasty for these natal women is fundamentally similar to GCS
I'm lucky enough to be treated with respect and compassion by all of the medical professionals I have worked with. That should be a given. MDs aren't in fact minor deities and yes some are ignorant and some are rude. The rudeness reported by the OP remains inexcusable.
As Karen says, we are not that unique,we are fundamentally similar to natal females and deserve to be treated as such.
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 21, 2017, 08:06:33 PM
Kelly, Victor I'm sorry ignorance is hardly any excuse for unprofessional and insulting behavior on the part of an MD.
And thank you Viktor, no need to compound the ignorance of this doc by putting forward your incorrect assumptions about the difference between vaginal and penile skin. In fact the only difference in the vaginal lining is that in natal females that skin responds to estrogen and produces some lubrication. It's still skin and it's healthy state is the same, i.e. colonized by microflora consisting of primarily lactobacillus.
Furthermore most gyns would have patients with vaginal agenisis, a condition that most gyns will in fact encounter as it's incidence is about 1:2000 population. Vaginoplasty for these natal women is fundamentally similar to GCS
I'm lucky enough to be treated with respect and compassion by all of the medical professionals I have worked with. That should be a given. MDs aren't in fact minor deities and yes some are ignorant and some are rude. The rudeness reported by the OP remains inexcusable.
As Karen says, we are not that unique,we are fundamentally similar to natal females and deserve to be treated as such.
I support the view of Kelly and Victor. Stating a medical fact is not an insult. There is no similarity between the female reproduction system and those of male. In the case of transwoman, the male reproductive system is no longer intact except the skin along with some nervous tissues are the only thing left. This fact does not make the transwoman similar to the cis woman, even on the part of the neo vagina, the skin type are different and so is the various complex mechanism associated with it. This does not include the complexity of the cis woman's reproduction system as a whole which to the transwoman are either a void or of a male counterpart which function in different way. Some of the symptoms for both are different, and so the treatment is supposed to be different.
Personally I am not falling for neo vagina (with no disrespect for those who did) but I am considered myself a transwoman. When it involved a medical visit, I don't mind exposing myself as a male in order to receive the correct treatment.
Actually this doctor is wrong. We all start out in the womb as female and as the testosterone affects our body our clit grows and the lips fuse together. So technically we all have the same parts down there. so poop on him and his ugly comment!!!!
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 11:54:03 AM
I support the view of Kelly and Victor. Stating a medical fact is not an insult. There is no similarity between the female reproduction system and those of male.
So medically, how are post-ops THAT different medically from an XX woman who has had a total hysterectomy?
And I any case that MD had no reason to be so rude... to me that means the response was based on prejudice rather than medicine.
- Karen
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 11:54:03 AM
I support the view of Kelly and Victor. Stating a medical fact is not an insult. There is no similarity between the female reproduction system and those of male.
Firstly there are a lot of similarities between female and male reproduction system because they start from the same point and develop differently depending on the presence of testosterone and anti mullerian hormone. Some parts become more different, some more similar.
Anyway a post-op vagina isn't a male organ. with modern techniques labia majora, labia minora, clitoris are all made of their homologues so there is not much difference there. urethra length is same.
Vaginal lining can be made from penile skin, scrotal skin, colon graft and nowadays peritoneal graft. I don't think the doctor even asked about it in this case. While it is different from a healthy cis female's, like stated a few times there are cis women who were born without it and they get vaginoplasty too.
Despite difference in vaginal walls it is still a vagina with possibilities of BV, yeast infections, tears etc (common problems) which wouldn't normally happen to a male?
If there seems to be a problem that wouldn't normally happen to cis woman he can ask/refer to someone else but it should be rare.
So what if there is no cervix and uterus? Less things to worry about for the doctor. There are cis women without them.
There is the prostate which is unlikely to cause problems under female hormone levels but if it did one would go to a urologist I guess.
While I'm interested in biology I'm not a doctor so I might be missing some details. But regardless I can't see who should be more qualified to see a post-op trans woman. If a gynecologist still doesn't feel confident about it they can kindly refer the patient to one with more experience.
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 11:54:03 AM
When it involved a medical visit, I don't mind exposing myself as a male in order to receive the correct treatment.
This would make even less sense outside of reproductive system problems. (treating you as male I mean, unless you are not doing HRT)
Quote from: Karen_A on November 22, 2017, 02:26:26 PM
So medically, how are post-ops THAT different medically from an XX woman who has had a total hysterectomy?
And I any case that MD had no reason to be so rude... to me that means the response was based on prejudice rather than medicine.
- Karen
Post-op women will not have the reproductive system of the xx woman, for example being dependent of hormone treatment, whereas the xx woman can produce own hormone, and treatment would be different for them. Any medical traditions will have different treatment for male and female, this is not an exception to western medicine. Before any treatment can begun, the first thing they must know is the original gender of the patient, in term of xx or xy, regardless of post-op or not, because SRS merely change the cosmetic of the gender organ, and does not bestow the biological mechanism of the xx woman.
I don't think this criteria as a fact being communicated (as an ethical necessity in medicine) to the patient is a form of insult (or rude) just because she is a post-op, unless she valued unethical medical practices that is out to win her respect and trust to spend for a certain treatment (as prevalent in illegal medical practices). Any post-op with such mind-set can become easy victim, hence such negative attitude toward an MD (who do the right thing by telling the fact, except that the fact hurts) should not be encourage.
Quote from: xFreya on November 22, 2017, 03:25:24 PM
Firstly there are a lot of similarities between female and male reproduction system because they start from the same point and develop differently depending on the presence of testosterone and anti mullerian hormone. Some parts become more different, some more similar.
This is only to say that they have the same origin, but develop differently due to the condition of the genes (xx or xy) and hormone is only part of the causes, not all, and as such required a different treatment for them. The saying that the thing start from the same point and develop differently is the same as saying they are similar is flawed. Any small differences required a different medical treatment, and the differences of male and female reproduction system and their treatment is clearly documented in all tradition of medicines. Any competent MD should be aware of them, and it is their responsibility to apply the right treatment to the right patient (male or female), and where it is outside their area of competence, it is their responsibility to make it clear, in various method of expressing it, even if some of the words may be hurtful for some patient.
Quote
Anyway a post-op vagina isn't a male organ. with modern techniques labia majora, labia minora, clitoris are all made of their homologues so there is not much difference there. urethra length is same.
Vaginal lining can be made from penile skin, scrotal skin, colon graft and nowadays peritoneal graft. I don't think the doctor even asked about it in this case. While it is different from a healthy cis female's, like stated a few times there are cis women who were born without it and they get vaginoplasty too.
Despite difference in vaginal walls it is still a vagina with possibilities of BV, yeast infections, tears etc (common problems) which wouldn't normally happen to a male?
1. The current (common) trend for the construction of post-op vagina is of penile skin, although there are better alternative such as using inner skin of mouth and stomach, these procedures are still new and experimental.
2. The upper half of the penile gland being used for the construction of clitoris has no match to the nervous density of a cis female clitoris (the penile gland in unmodified conditioned is also no match in nervous density of the cis female clitoris). Keeping the penile gland and fore-skin intact and unmodified is the only way to remotely simulate a feminine sexual sensation, SRS procedure destroyed nervous tissues at disturbing level, that's why the procedure is considered unethical in medical practices.
3. The neo vagina required completely different maintenance and the associated health care product used are different from those for cis female. A good example is the cis female vagina can absorbed sperm and hormone placed in it, and any toxic substance placed in it can be lethal, the same is not true for a neo vagina.
4. The cis woman's labia majora, and labia minora expand and changed colored, become self lubricated when sexually arosed, the neo vagina, no matter how cosmetically perfect, it has no such function. However, such bodily sexual response is the main cause of attraction for the man.
5. When view from the back, the part between the neo vagina cavity and the anus will collapse due to the absence of support of the inner portion of the penile shaft, whereas in a cis woman, this area is surrounded by strong muscles that can contract the vagina opening. Visually when this part collapse, it become less sexually attractive for the man who view from behind. This may have detrimental effect for anal sex as this part (space) need to be either filled with muscles (as in cis woman) or a penile shaft, but not a collapsed pile of skin where next to the anal cavity is directly the neo vagina cavity. Since there is no support, there is lesser sensation from either anal or neo vagina sex, due to no possibility of contraction with the muscles or in contacting with the inner portion of hardened penile shaft.
Quote
If there seems to be a problem that wouldn't normally happen to cis woman he can ask/refer to someone else but it should be rare.
Only MD familar with SRS experience is the most suitable for such treatment, because SRS procedure create a new condition for the patient that required such special treatment. Otherwise, the patient should only see the MD specialize in his/her birth gender.
Quote
So what if there is no cervix and uterus? Less things to worry about for the doctor. There are cis women without them.
MD specialized in cervix and uterus, may not be familar with male penile skin related problem (especially when the skin is inverted and concealed in a cavity), and the new condition created by the SRS procedure, which is a combination of plastic surgery field and male reproduction system field of specialization.
Quote
There is the prostate which is unlikely to cause problems under female hormone levels but if it did one would go to a urologist I guess.
The problem is we need to go through a diagnostic phase, in order to determine an ailment before the right treatment can be prescribed, this phase will screen the person's birth gender and the right advice and recommendation for the right doctor will be given. The problem with most post-op patient is that they will get emotionally hurt in the process, that is not the fault of modern medical procedure, it just that the patient need to learn the proper attitude for being a post-op in dealing with the medical officers.
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While I'm interested in biology I'm not a doctor so I might be missing some details. But regardless I can't see who should be more qualified to see a post-op trans woman. If a gynecologist still doesn't feel confident about it they can kindly refer the patient to one with more experience.
While they explained the fact and make the recommendation, a post-op patient should learn to differentiate a medical fact from an insult.
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 21, 2017, 08:06:33 PM
And thank you Viktor, no need to compound the ignorance of this doc by putting forward your incorrect assumptions about the difference between vaginal and penile skin. In fact the only difference in the vaginal lining is that in natal females that skin responds to estrogen and produces some lubrication. It's still skin and it's healthy state is the same, i.e. colonized by microflora consisting of primarily lactobacillus.
I am not sure that this is factually correct. It my experience that there is a significant difference between the lining of a female vagina and penile skin. The main one is that while, as you say, penile skin is just skin, the lining of a female vagina is made up of mucosal tissue; much like the inside of your mouth.
Quote from: Complete on November 22, 2017, 09:00:29 PM
I am not sure that this is factually correct. It my experience that there is a significant difference between the lining of a female vagina and penile skin. The main one is that while, as you say, penile skin is just skin, the lining of a female vagina is made up of mucosal tissue; much like the inside of your mouth.
Not according to my surgeon who's training and background is as a urogynecological surgeon. Mucosa *always* exudes moisture in fairly large amounts which vaginal walls only do when blood-engorged during arousal.
Edit -- The only difference as far as I can ascertain between external skin and internal is the presence of a layer called the stratum corneum, aka keratinized skin. I know about this personally because that layer was shed from my vaginal walls between weeks 6-7 post op.
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 22, 2017, 09:05:39 PM
Not according to my surgeon who's training and background is as a urogynecological surgeon. Mucosa *always* exudes moisture in fairly large amounts which vaginal walls only do when blood-engorged during arousal.
Edit -- The only difference as far as I can ascertain between external skin and internal is the presence of a layer called the stratum corneum, aka keratinized skin. I know about this personally because that layer was shed from my vaginal walls between weeks 6-7 post op.
I guess the only way to know for sure is to feel around the inside if an unaroused vagina. I do know that the inside of mine is always wet and gets very, very wet when aroused.
Sure, mine is always damp, but not dripping. Sigmoid colon grafts weep significantly all the time. The keratinized exterior layer of exterior skin is the main barrier to moisture loss.
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 22, 2017, 09:26:45 PM
Sure, mine is always damp, but not dripping. Sigmoid colon grafts weep significantly all the time. The keratinized exterior layer of exterior skin is the main barrier to moisture loss.
I would not say that mine weeps significantly all the time. Only when stimulated, during and after sex. Are you saying you can be penetrated without using lube? That would be great. I wonder if anybody else has that experience.
Also, you might want to reference Jacelyn's comments above.
Nope, not here - tho I check my self lubrication as often as possible. Current technique often (usually) includes using the excess urethra in the neovagina. My doc uses it to line the inner labia. Post op MTF women should also retain the Cowper's glands which create pre ejaculation fluid (the purpose of that is to adjust pH prior to ejaculation)
Again, sigmoid colon graft procedures do provide self lubrication, however as far as I know, that usually also requires use of pads to keep underwear from being wet.
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 22, 2017, 09:45:47 PM
Again, sigmoid colon graft procedures do provide self lubrication, however as far as I know, that usually also requires use of pads to keep underwear from being wet.
Good lord! I never cease to be amazed at the amount of misinformation on these forums. The only time l need
to use a pad is after sex. I usually get a small amount of "drip", probably from my hubby's ejaculation and usually one pad does the trick.
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 07:06:53 PM
Post-op women will not have the reproductive system of the xx woman, for example being dependent of hormone treatment, whereas the xx woman can produce own hormone, and treatment would be different for them.
I hope you realize that what you are saying has little to no bearing when comparing a gg who had a total hysterectomy and a post-op... which is what I asked you about...
A woman that had one in her 20's or 30's or even 40's, would almost certainly be prescribed pretty much the same HRT a post-op takes, as she can no longer produce her own hormones...
Do you know what a total hysterectomy is? Would you tell a gg what had one not to see a gyn as she no longer has a "female reproductive system"?
- Karen
Quote from: Complete on November 22, 2017, 09:00:29 PM
I am not sure that this is factually correct. It my experience that there is a significant difference between the lining of a female vagina and penile skin.
While I have never checked (I over 19 years post-op), I was told that over time the skin adapts to being "inside" and changes because of it. In my case I was rather "small" in that department (unfortunately that was the ONLY small thing about me) so a significant amount of vaginal canal is from scrotal tissue.
What I do know is that I had a nurse practitioner in a busy GYN office do a PAP smear on me and not realize i was not gg. The Gyn told me that when she told the nurse, teh nurse was very surprised... so it can't be THAT different.
- Karen
Quote from: Complete on November 22, 2017, 09:52:51 PM
Good lord! I never cease to be amazed at the amount of misinformation on these forums. The only time l need
to use a pad is after sex. I usually get a small amount of "drip", probably from my hubby's ejaculation and usually one pad does the trick.
Good for you. From chett's website
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Self-lubrication
Standard SRS = come from the secretion of preserved para-urethral gland and cowper's gland.
SRS with colon graft = come from the secretion of mucus gland which varies from small amount of discharge to abundant discharge
If that's misinformation it didn't originate here.
Quote from: Karen_A on November 22, 2017, 10:29:47 PM
I hope you realize that what you are saying has little to no bearing when comparing a gg who had a total hysterectomy and a post-op... which is what I asked you about...
A woman that had one in her 20's or 30's or even 40's, would almost certainly be prescribed pretty much the same HRT a post-op takes, as she can no longer produce her own hormones...
Do you know what a total hysterectomy is? Would you tell a gg what had one not to see a gyn as she no longer has a "female reproductive system"?
- Karen
Karen. I hope you are not arguing that a neovagina is anything like a normal female one. The differences go beyond the abbreviated quote you are using. Please try re-reading Jacelyn's entire post. I think she describes at least 5 or 6 significant differences. As she suggests, would you not prefer competent care from someone who actually understood the structures and reconstruction of male to female genitals to someone inexperienced in such matters?
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 22, 2017, 09:05:39 PM
Not according to my surgeon who's training and background is as a urogynecological surgeon. Mucosa *always* exudes moisture in fairly large amounts which vaginal walls only do when blood-engorged during arousal.
Edit -- The only difference as far as I can ascertain between external skin and internal is the presence of a layer called the stratum corneum, aka keratinized skin. I know about this personally because that layer was shed from my vaginal walls between weeks 6-7 post op.
Vaginal wall of cis woman can be blood-engorged during arousal, no neo vagina can do it, not even with using mucosal tissue taken from the inside of one's mouth or stomach. The mechanism involved with the natural vaginal has a complexity beyond the imagination of the creators of neo vagina.
The skin from the inverted penis has no comparison to it, which is the reason it required a life time of regular maintenance with dilation method, if it can even remotely similar to mucosal tissue, after a period of time as you have assumed that the external skin has shed from your vaginal walls between 6-7 weeks post op, to reveal the internal layer called the stratum corneum, aka keratinized skin as similar to mucosal skin, you would have no need for regular maintenance or dilation. Our community is in need practical facts, not medical theory.
Another thing is the circular muscle surrounding the vagina, this is one critical component that is missing in neo vagina, it is beyond the imagination of cis woman that an intercourse with a neo vagina is matter of purely creating fiction between the surface of of two penile skin of two persons, where there is complete absence of interactive as well as involuntary muscular contraction of the vagina.
Given these major differences, how do you expect a doctor from the woman clinic know about your neo vagina and not confused treatment for those of cis women?
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 22, 2017, 10:46:28 PM
Good for you. From chett's website
If that's misinformation it didn't originate here.
I didn't see where that said anything about wearing a pad all the time. Like l said, "always wet ", except after sex, then abundantly wet.😊😄😃😀😆😆😆😆
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 08:20:40 PM
2. The upper half of the penile grand being used for the construction of clitoris has no match to the nervous density of a cis female clitoris (the penile grand in unmodified conditioned is also no match in nervous density of the cis female clitoris). Keeping the penile grand and fore-skin intact and unmodified is the only way to remotely simulate a feminine sexual sensation, SRS procedure destroyed nervous tissues at disturbing level, that's why the procedure is considered unethical in medical practices.
Wait, what? Are you saying SRS is considered an "unethical medical practice"? Tell me then why most of those that had this surgery report a high rate of sexual satisfaction including orgasm? Have you had this surgery? Speaking from my own experience, I've been completely happy with my own response regardless of the fact of not matching the nervous density of natal females and regardless of the fact I had an older style procedure performed 40 years ago in 1977. In fact, with my older surgical technique, the penile glans and associated nerves and blood supply was used to create a pseudo cervix rather than the clitoris and I have a great deal of sensation inside. I really have no visible clitoris as with in modern procedures as it is rather buried but the lump or bundle of nerves or corpus spongiosum that was used to create it is still highly sensate and can be stimulated alone to climax.
Quote3. The neo vagina required completely different maintenance and the associated health care product used are different from those for cis female. A good example is the cis female vagina can absorbed sperm and hormone placed in it, and any toxic substance placed in it can be lethal, the same is not true for a neo vagina.
Granted the first part of this holds some merit but I'm going to have to contest some of your assertions in the second. Hormones placed in the "neo vagina" can indeed be absorbed into the blood stream and can have direct affect on the tissues involved as well. Ask anyone who has ever used Premarin vaginal cream and the notion that a toxic substance could be inserted into an aftermarket vagina would have no affect is a downright dangerous suggestion.
Quote4. The cis woman's labia majora, and labia minora expand and changed colored, become self lubricated when sexually arosed, the neo vagina, no matter how cosmetically perfect, it has no such function. However, such bodily sexual response is the main cause of attraction for the man.
Indeed, lubrication and getting wet is a sign of sexual arousal but that can be discretely simulated but to suggest engorgement of the clitoris, labia minora and vestibule area is impossible is simply not correct, at least in my case and the surgical techniques that were used. In fact, I've heard of those having revision surgery because this engorgement has been problematic for some extending from the clitoris all the way into the vaginal opening. I definitely "get hard" when aroused due to some retention of the corpus spongiosum and due to blood flow, my whole vulva gets warmer and while not inter vaginally, some natural amount of lubrication or a moistening, probably from the Cowpers glands does happen.
Quote5. ... Since there is no support, there is lesser sensation from either anal or neo vagina sex, due to no possibility of contraction with the muscles or in contacting with the inner portion of hardened penile shaft.
QuoteAnother thing is the circular muscle surrounding the vagina, this is one critical component that is missing in neo vagina, it is beyond the imagination of cis woman that an intercourse with a neo vagina is matter of purely creating fiction between the surface of of two penile skin of two persons, where there is complete absence of interactive as well as involuntary muscular contraction of the vagina.
What? I can't say I understand all of this. Are you saying the muscles connected to the "neo vagina" are incapable of contraction? Ever done kegal exercises? I can definitely contract the muscles at the opening of my vagina enough to be felt by a partner. Maybe I just don't get what you're talking about? Possibly not what you mean but my vaginal opening is surrounded by a ring of muscles extending inside an inch or so and can easily be felt with fingers. At climax, these muscles or whatever the hell is in there definitely spasm rhythmically and involuntarily.
QuoteOnly MD familar with SRS experience is the most suitable for such treatment, because SRS procedure create a new condition for the patient that required such special treatment. Otherwise, the patient should only see the MD specialize in his/her birth gender.
No, preferably an MD should specialize in or have experience with the procedures and conditions specific to those that have had SRS. Saying a post surgical transsexual female should only see a doctors that specializes in their birth gender is quite frankly stupid.
QuoteWhile they explained the fact and make the recommendation, a post-op patient should learn to differentiate a medical fact from an insult.
As well as they should learn to differentiate between medical incompetence, ignorance and flat out insensitivity and bias from a medical practitioner. Yes, our bodies are not the same as natal females and we do retain vestiges of the male reproductive system such as the prostate gland but to suggest we are entirely and wholly different from natal females in all aspects simply isn't entirely accurate either.
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 10:52:23 PM
The skin from the inverted penis has no comparison to it, which is the reason it required a life time of regular maintenance with dilution method, if it can even remotely similar to mucosal tissue, after a period of time as you have assumed that the external skin has shed from your vaginal walls between 6-7 weeks post op, to reveal the internal layer called the stratum corneum, aka keratinized skin as similar to mucosal skin, you would have no need for regular maintenance or dilution. Our community is in need practical facts, not medical theory.
Perhaps some need less practical facts and to listen more closely to those with more actual experience in these matters especially from those long term post surgery? The inside of my vagina is indeed far more mucosal than your comments would tend to believe is possible. Yes, I have to dilate to maintain depth and width if not having regular intercourse and do need to use lubrication for comfort but the inside my vagina does maintain its own moisture, contains the same vaginal flora, taste and smell as a natal female and is equally capable of having yeast infections, etc., which wouldn't happen if it was the dried out cavity as you suggest.
Healthcare from uneducated and inexperienced doctors that aren't familiar with our special bodies and needs is a problem and should we encounter a physician that isn't, ignorance and insensitivity are to be expected and anticipated but while we aren't natal females, we aren't exactly male either and it isn't rocket science especially if we have symptoms or problems that are common with natal women.
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 08:20:40 PM
This is only to say that they have the same origin, but develop differently due to the condition of the genes (xx or xy) and hormone is only part of the causes, not all, and as such required a different treatment for them. The saying that the thing start from the same point and develop differently is the same as saying they are similar is flawed. Any small differences required a different medical treatment, and the differences of male and female reproduction system and their treatment is clearly documented in all tradition of medicines. Any competent MD should be aware of them, and it is their responsibility to apply the right treatment to the right patient (male or female), and where it is outside their area of competence, it is their responsibility to make it clear, in various method of expressing it, even if some of the words may be hurtful for some patient.
After SRY gene on Y chromosome makes undifferentiated gonads into testicles(or not) sexual differentiation is caused by hormones through expression of different genes. That is why if there is no working SRY gene you can get XY female phenotype person. Or you can get an XX male if there is an SRY gene.
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 08:20:40 PM
1. The current (common) trend for the construction of post-op vagina is of penile skin, although there are better alternative such as using inner skin of mouth and stomach, these procedures are still new and experimental.
I think scrotal skin or partly penile partly scrotal skin graft might be more common these days. Regardless all of these are possible what is your point?
Lisa_K said most things I would say so I won't repeat them, but I will just say I experience engorgement and some lubrication during arousal and I can contract the muscles in the vagina too. No offense but it almost sounds like you decided not to get SRS for whatever reason (which is perfectly fine) and are reminding yourself reasons why a "neo vagina" is bad. But a lot of these aren't true or not very relevant here.
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 22, 2017, 08:20:40 PM
Only MD familar with SRS experience is the most suitable for such treatment, because SRS procedure create a new condition for the patient that required such special treatment. Otherwise, the patient should only see the MD specialize in his/her birth gender.
There isn't always an SRS surgeon around. And since "plastic surgery + originally male equipment" is close to natal female genitals, in
most cases a gynecologist is the next best option.
Edit: I decided I don't even want to continue this debate. If I wanted to read and answer to stuff about how SRS is "medically unethical" and how trans women should be categorically denied from gynecological services because they are completely their birth sex, or beautiful things like "an intercourse with a neo vagina is matter of purely creating fiction between the surface of of two penile skin of two persons" I would go to youtube comment section or something, not a trans forum.
Quote from: Lisa_K on November 23, 2017, 02:27:57 AM
Wait, what? Are you saying SRS is considered an "unethical medical practice"? Tell me then why most of those that had this surgery report a high rate of sexual satisfaction including orgasm?
The study on sexual satisfaction of post surgery patients is inconclusive:
"The very high rates of subjective satisfaction and the surgical outcomes indicate that gender reassignment surgery is beneficial. These findings must be interpreted with caution, however, because fewer than half of the questionnaires were returned." c.f. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/
We need to question the standard of treatment that involved SRS:
"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. " c.f. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/
Previously, the law make SRS a necessity for the recognition of desired gender. The new law will make SRS unnecessary and so is the use of transgender as a mental disorder as the reason for SRS:
"The World Health Organisation (WHO) is the principal public health body of the United Nations (UN) and it recently announced it is beginning to take steps to remove being transgender off its classification list of mental and behavioural disorders."
The medical code of ethics is not to harm the patient, SRS is considered unethical since it harm the patient's fertility by destroying the reproductive system, as well as partially destroying the nervous tissues (this is important for a TS) associated with the patient's sexual happiness.
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Have you had this surgery? Speaking from my own experience, I've been completely happy with my own response regardless of the fact of not matching the nervous density of natal females and regardless of the fact I had an older style procedure performed 40 years ago in 1977. In fact, with my older surgical technique, the penile glans and associated nerves and blood supply was used to create a pseudo cervix rather than the clitoris and I have a great deal of sensation inside. I really have no visible clitoris as with in modern procedures as it is rather buried but the lump or bundle of nerves or corpus spongiosum that was used to create it is still highly sensate and can be stimulated alone to climax.
A lot of pre-op are happy too just the way they are and they don't need to go through all the trouble surgery which is not without risks and short comings.
While after surgery, you treasure the remaining parts that were left that contribute to your sensation, but a pre-op will always have their parts untouched, unmodified, and so able to enjoy full sensation without being compromised by the surgery.
The corpus spongiosum should not be removed in its original place, I am more than happy to not have a vagina but enjoy better anal sex with this thing intact (when it gets hard, then the pleasure intensify), and able to show sign of arousal (erection) in the absence of a functioning labia majora, and labia minora, something which I will never get even with surgery (I'd rather have some bodily sign of arousal to show my bf during the erotic moment, than having nothing to show due to the surgery).
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Granted the first part of this holds some merit but I'm going to have to contest some of your assertions in the second. Hormones placed in the "neo vagina" can indeed be absorbed into the blood stream and can have direct affect on the tissues involved as well. Ask anyone who has ever used Premarin vaginal cream and the notion that a toxic substance could be inserted into an aftermarket vagina would have no affect is a downright dangerous suggestion.
Absorbing such medicine is not the purpose of my comparison between the natural and neo vaginal, my focus is daily functionality of the organ, a natural vagina can absorb the sperm of one's partner without needing to clean afterward and sperm is known to be beneficial to the woman's mental health as well as improving the body's immunity. But a neo vagina has no such function and it must be cleansed or risk infestion after a period of time.
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Indeed, lubrication and getting wet is a sign of sexual arousal but that can be discretely simulated but to suggest engorgement of the clitoris, labia minora and vestibule area is impossible is simply not correct, at least in my case and the surgical techniques that were used. In fact, I've heard of those having revision surgery because this engorgement has been problematic for some extending from the clitoris all the way into the vaginal opening. I definitely "get hard" when aroused due to some retention of the corpus spongiosum and due to blood flow, my whole vulva gets warmer and while not inter vaginally, some natural amount of lubrication or a moistening, probably from the Cowpers glands does happen.
You do know that this phenomena is not universally apply to all, and depend on the doctor as well as luck. We should not rely on anything that is based on luck, at least we should not encourage others to take the risk knowing that it exists, that is considered unethical in a medical case.
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What? I can't say I understand all of this. Are you saying the muscles connected to the "neo vagina" are incapable of contraction? Ever done kegal exercises? I can definitely contract the muscles at the opening of my vagina enough to be felt by a partner. Maybe I just don't get what you're talking about? Possibly not what you mean but my vaginal opening is surrounded by a ring of muscles extending inside an inch or so and can easily be felt with fingers. At climax, these muscles or whatever the hell is in there definitely spasm rhythmically and involuntarily.
What you experience is the muscle responsible for the contraction of the anus, since it is linked to the same area, it will have some effect on the neo vagina, but a cis woman's vagina has its own ring of muscles, at least 8 as shown in the picture: https://i1.wp.com/midwiferytraditions.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/pelvic-floor-exercises-4.jpeg?w=400&ssl=1
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No, preferably an MD should specialize in or have experience with the procedures and conditions specific to those that have had SRS. Saying a post surgical transsexual female should only see a doctors that specializes in their birth gender is quite frankly stupid.
Only for area with access to the SRS specialist, otherwise, the only choice is a doctor specializes in male patient.
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As well as they should learn to differentiate between medical incompetence, ignorance and flat out insensitivity and bias from a medical practitioner. Yes, our bodies are not the same as natal females and we do retain vestiges of the male reproductive system such as the prostate gland but to suggest we are entirely and wholly different from natal females in all aspects simply isn't entirely accurate either.
Of course if you are looking for treatment that is not gender related, then simply go to a general doctor or a specialist of that respective field. But I assume that what we discussed here is a gender related health issue.
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Perhaps some need less practical facts and to listen more closely to those with more actual experience in these matters especially from those long term post surgery? The inside of my vagina is indeed far more mucosal than your comments would tend to believe is possible. Yes, I have to dilate to maintain depth and width if not having regular intercourse and do need to use lubrication for comfort but the inside my vagina does maintain its own moisture, contains the same vaginal flora, taste and smell as a natal female and is equally capable of having yeast infections, etc., which wouldn't happen if it was the dried out cavity as you suggest.
No one denial the neo vagina can maintain moisture, but the contributing factor is certainly not of the penile skin but of other gland that is placed there during the SRS procedure. What I am saying is that the neo vagina cannot exhibit sign of sexual arousal that cause the increase of blood to the area and resulted in more increase of secretion than in normal state. I did not suggest it is a dry out cavity but a place where self cleansing cannot occurred and so all waste inside must be cleanse regularly.
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Healthcare from uneducated and inexperienced doctors that aren't familiar with our special bodies and needs is a problem and should we encounter a physician that isn't, ignorance and insensitivity are to be expected and anticipated but while we aren't natal females, we aren't exactly male either and it isn't rocket science especially if we have symptoms or problems that are common with natal women.
We cannot expect others to think and behave what we expect them to. Being defensive only show one's own insecurity and lack of self-confident in being a transwoman. That's the reason a few words is all that is needed to make them lose their manner. Being a transwoman, one's character and mannerism should be that of a woman, not a man that easily react to anger anymore.
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 21, 2017, 08:06:33 PM
Kelly, Victor I'm sorry ignorance is hardly any excuse for unprofessional and insulting behavior on the part of an MD.
And thank you Viktor, no need to compound the ignorance of this doc by putting forward your incorrect assumptions about the difference between vaginal and penile skin. In fact the only difference in the vaginal lining is that in natal females that skin responds to estrogen and produces some lubrication. It's still skin and it's healthy state is the same, i.e. colonized by microflora consisting of primarily lactobacillus.
Incorrect. The skin of a natal female vaginal passage is firstly a mucous membrane, not a cutaneous external epithelium, which penile shaft skin is, whether it be glabrous or not. The presence of hair follicles - whether the skin has had treatment prior to surgery to remove it or not - on the inside of the neovagina is further evidence this is not the same kind of skin; mucosal membranes do not have hair follicles and no laser treatment or any other kind of treatment renders the outer penile skin directly analogous to a vaginal mucous membrane. Nor does prolonged inversion render the outer skin a vaginal mucous membrane.
Vaginal mucous membrane is thinner, non-keratinized squamous tissue, contains a high number of secretory cells, connections to internal muscles and a rich blood supply from vaginal arteries. It is capable of secreting various kinds of mucus of relatively acidic pH and varying in consistency corresponding to ovulation and periods of non-ovulation, which may facilitate or block sperm passage respectively. The elasticity of the vaginal membrane is considerable given it has to stretch to accommodate a child's head.
Vaginas made from colons have more in common with the vaginal mucosa, but even those do not have the same specialized functions of vaginal tissues. All skin is not "just skin". Mucous membrane is immediately more permeable to substances and easier to perforate, which is why most types of medication are strictly divided into those that can be used on outer epithelium only, and those designed to be used on mucosal tissue.
Please, do not assume I don't know jack about this subject. I've been a biology academic and worked in medicine for several years.
Obviously a vagina constructed from penile skin or colon is not necessarily an inadequate structure unless you desire childbirth of course, and I will not imply that it is - but the attributes and capabilities of this skin differ in physiology and pathology particulars.
Quote from: Complete on November 22, 2017, 10:47:44 PM
Karen. I hope you are not arguing that a neovagina is anything like a normal female one. The differences go beyond the abbreviated quote you are using.
What i am saying is that the differences PRACTICALLY are not that significant in terms of most medical care when comparing a gg who has had a total hysterectomy a and post-op.
The times it would matter are rare, and in those cases there is not likely to be an in network doctor that would be better than a good gyn anyway.
I quoted that part of what Jacelyn said for a reason... I asked her about the differences between a post-op and post hysterectomy gg and what she FIRST starts off on is hormone production!!!
To me that says she is likely a militant non-op (at least for herself) and is PRIMARILY justifying her own decision not to have SRS ...something she need not do.
No point in having a discussion about the PRACTICAL aspects of getting medical care and which type of MD is best for a post-op MTF with such a person...
- Karen
Sorry Viktor, I take the word of my surgeon, referenced in one of my posts a few pages back.
You want a relevant experience pissing contest? 35 years split between medical device and pharma, I've been designing devices for 30 years, been in numerous ORs observing and advising surgeons on the use of products I designed. The surgeon who performed my GCS has used technology I developed.
It's a shame someone with 8 -10 years of higher education is not smart enough to understand the ins and outs of science advancements and discoveries. You should not have to retrain them and you were right to walk out.
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 23, 2017, 10:38:18 AM
Sorry Viktor, I take the word of my surgeon, referenced in one of my posts a few pages back.
You want a relevant experience pissing contest? 35 years split between medical device and pharma, I've been designing devices for 30 years, been in numerous ORs observing and advising surgeons on the use of products I designed. The surgeon who performed my GCS has used technology I developed.
And yet you don't seem to know or care about the clear difference of form and function between cutaneous epithelium and mucosal membrane. You would not particularly want
mucosa on the outside of your body because it is not the "just skin" you would need for the job. Hopefully I never have to call on anyone you advised for any skin grafts, eh?
You are the one who has been making the pointed personal remarks here.
Quote from: xFreya on November 23, 2017, 04:33:44 AM
No offense but it almost sounds like you decided not to get SRS for whatever reason (which is perfectly fine) and are reminding yourself reasons why a "neo vagina" is bad. But a lot of these aren't true or not very relevant here.
Edit: I decided I don't even want to continue this debate. If I wanted to read and answer to stuff about how SRS is "medically unethical" and how trans women should be categorically denied from gynecological services because they are completely their birth sex, or beautiful things like "an intercourse with a neo vagina is matter of purely creating fiction between the surface of of two penile skin of two persons" I would go to youtube comment section or something, not a trans forum.
Bravo!
Quote from: Jacelyn on November 23, 2017, 07:26:56 AM
"The very high rates of subjective satisfaction and the surgical outcomes indicate that gender reassignment surgery is beneficial. These findings must be interpreted with caution, however, because fewer than half of the questionnaires were returned." c.f. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/
We need to question the standard of treatment that involved SRS:
"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. " c.f. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/
A half assed study from Germany where they're not particularly known for their great surgical work where most of those sent questionnaires didn't even respond. Ummkay? And the so called Swedish study that Cecilia Dhejne herself said the results have been misinterpreted don't do much to sway my opinion.
Perhaps you should read this well referenced article, a snippet of which is quoted below: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-about-transition-regrets_b_6160626.html)
QuoteSurgical regret is actually very uncommon. Virtually every modern study puts it below 4 percent, and most estimate it to be between 1 and 2 percent (Cohen-Kettenis & Pfafflin 2003, Kuiper & Cohen-Kettenis 1998, Pfafflin & Junge 1998, Smith 2005, Dhejne 2014). In some other recent longitudinal studies, none of the subjects expressed regret over medically transitioning (Krege et al. 2001, De Cuypere et al. 2006).
The rest of what you've written is not really worthy of a response because while it may sound good to you, you really lack the experience to know what the hell you're talking about and half of what you've claimed sounds like anti-trans propaganda. You're certainly entitled to your views and opinions but I don't believe they have much relevance in this discussion.
Quote from: Karen_A on November 23, 2017, 09:18:05 AM
To me that says she is likely a militant non-op (at least for herself) and is PRIMARILY justifying her own decision not to have SRS ...something she need not do.
I got the same impression as well. I have no problems with a person doing whatever works for them but when it comes to telling someone else what their experience is or should be or is proselytizing that their way is somehow superior, then I've got issues.
QuoteNo point in having a discussion about the PRACTICAL aspects of getting medical care and which type of MD is best for a post-op MTF with such a person...
Agreed.
Glad to see we're all still worried about the O/P.... ::)
:police: This topic is locked for cooling down :police: