I've seen both sides to the argument - Intersex people saying that being trans is different from being interesex, but I've also heard trans people make good points: ->-bleeped-<- has been categorized by some medical practitioners as an intersex disorder, a mixture of a brain-body switch and hormones present during fetal stage that didn't fully develop, along with the fact that transgender individuals undergoing transition fit the loose definition of intersex - Having physical qualities from both sexes. I would normally class the two as completely separate things, but I started wondering this question again after I did research and learned that transmales often have a mixture of both genitals, even a clit that can get fully erect.
Please forgive me if I've accidently said anything that might be offensive or incorrect, I'm still trying my hardest to learn. What do you think, and why?
Quote from: kuudos on August 30, 2017, 04:52:45 PMWhat do you think, and why?
duh No!!! Why? I despise ""professional opinions"" ?
If anything we're "non-binary", "uni-sex"???
Who would know better? I suspect You and/or I.
Ever read what the Bible has to say????
(ps: i also suspect someone with 4 posts can't post "surveys")
Your Welcome
Quote from: kuudos on August 30, 2017, 04:52:45 PM
I've seen both sides to the argument ... I would normally class the two as completely separate things, but I started wondering this question again ... What do you think, and why?
I claim no expertise in labels but I subscribe that the two labels are generally different but there can be those who experience both... i.e., a trans individual who has an intersex condition. I personally think it's best to view them as different things despite any connections discovered in some cases.
Possibly helpful...
- What is intersex? (http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex)
- What's the difference between being transgender or transsexual and having an intersex condition? (http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender)
- From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex) ...
Quote"... However, current studies do not support a statistical correlation between genetic intersex traits and transsexual persons.[105][106] ... Intersex can therefore be contrasted with transgender,[107] which describes the condition in which one's gender identity does not match one's assigned sex. ..."
As with all labeling systems, it really depends on whose dictionary you use... find one person with a different definition and you'll find agreement/disagreement.
Words can have very specific meanings when describing medical diagnoses, and slightly less so in general usage describing social distinctions. For individual people, words mean to you whatever they mean. Transphobic people may toss out things like "trans women are not REAL women," without offering an explicit definition of what a "woman" is in their opinion other than "born without a penis." Are they incorrect? Well, according to their definition of "woman," no, but that's THEIR definition.
My understanding of "intersex" is one thing if used as a medical term, but more expansive and fluid if being used by someone to describe their own identity. In general, if someone is claiming a label like "intersex." unless you are a clinician charged with their care, and maybe even then, I would defer to their own assessment.
A good rule of thumb regarding labels is that they are best used as "descriptive," rather than "prescriptive," That is, one ought not determine "oh, I am transgender, and therefore I ought to do..." Rather, find a label that seems to describe you as you are, and to find others identifying similarly. Share experiences and learn from each other. Talk with others identifying differently, maybe discover some new facets of yourself you hadn't seen before.
Erin
I would not say they are both the same thing. However, some people with intersex conditions may transition and be trans as well. There are plenty of intersex people that do not want HRT or surgery in my order to conform to any binary definition, and there are many trans people that refuse to accept any intersex diagnosis, if one exists.
They are not the same thing, but can lead people down similar paths so generally they get lumped in the same communities.
Quote from: Lady Sarah on August 30, 2017, 10:29:45 PM
I would not say they are both the same thing. However, some people with intersex conditions may transition and be trans as well. There are plenty of intersex people that do not want HRT or surgery in my order to conform to any binary definition, and there are many trans people that refuse to accept any intersex diagnosis, if one exists.
At first I thought I was crazy with my transgender. Until I research about Transgender and Transexual and I think I fit in this category then intersex.
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Quote from: Lady Sarah on August 30, 2017, 10:29:45 PM
I would not say they are both the same thing. However, some people with intersex conditions may transition and be trans as well. There are plenty of intersex people that do not want HRT or surgery in my order to conform to any binary definition, and there are many trans people that refuse to accept any intersex diagnosis, if one exists.
I knew I had to 'transition' before I knew I was intersexed.. so you can be both. I don't claim to be trans however, I claim to be female with some mishaps present at birth :)
Quote from: Doreen on November 07, 2017, 10:10:16 AM
I knew I had to 'transition' before I knew I was intersexed.. so you can be both. I don't claim to be trans however, I claim to be female with some mishaps present at birth :)
I also claim to be female because most of the form don't have third gender. Recently I got a phone call survey about my recent visit to my health care provider, and she asked about sex and I said no to Male, Female but yes to Transgender M2F. I just realized how easy I labeled myself as Transgender.
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No not all transgender people are intersex and not all intersex people are transgender. I am both I have female organs inside of me but I was AMAB as I have male parts as well. I have alway felt female and when I went to the Doctors I found out with after alot of tests.
That really brings up the question of what defines intersex.
Some people are more obvious like if they have complete AIS or if they have some of both sex organs found. Another is when they are born sexually ambiguous. What else defines a person?
I feel like I am somewhere in the realm of intersex. Yes I most definately have a transgender wired brain. What makes me think I am somehow intersex? That is a good question.
What is weird about me could be symptoms of an endocrine disrupter likely DES. Or it could be I may carry one of the mild AR mutation. I don't know about my specific gene as that test is $1000.00. I did get the chromosome test and I know that I do not have any trisomy chromosome condition. But I still have abnormalities. My skeletal bone/joint shapes are ideal for female humans. The position and scale of my pelvic bones is female, as are my knee joint pivot angles and elbows. I have a split penile raphe and what was an unfused perennial raphe. So my exterior genitals are a symtom of either low or partially blocked DHT as the genital folds require DHT to form the male shapes. Could also be a mild AIS symtom. My bone shapes are indicative of either low or blocked testosterone very early in development as the shape of these bones is formed somewhere between 7-12 weeks.
I really still have more questions than answers about my own body. The only thing I know for certain is how I feel and think.
So again we have the question, what defines intersex?
Some people who are diagnosed as intersex have symptoms that could be the result of gene mutation to the AR gene or even one of several others. Their symptoms could also be caused by an external endocrine disrupter. Many times the basic cause can be similar to the cause a person's brain is wired opposite their birth assigned gender.
I think the test name that you are looking for is karyotype.
And Intersex People whose characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex. Some intersex traits are not always visible at birth; some babies may be born with ambiguous genitals, while others may have ambiguous internal organs (testes and ovaries) as well as intersex is a term that refers to someone whose anatomy or genetics at birth—the X and Y chromosomes that are usually XX for women and XY for men—do not correspond to the typical expectations for either sex.
The site contains two definitions of intersexuality which can be found here (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html) and here (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Intersexuality). It can take many form and while the definition is somewhat general, it can be clearly diagnosed with a proper medical examination.
Quote from: Dena on November 07, 2017, 09:01:16 PM
The site contains two definitions of intersexuality which can be found here (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,54369.0.html) and here (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Intersexuality). It can take many form and while the definition is somewhat general, it can be clearly diagnosed with a proper medical examination.
This discussion had been an education to all of us.
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Well as far as the definition of intersex, the medical definition leaves the term kind of open for discussion still. Since it includes congenital disorders of "morphic" or "dimorphism", it could include the brain wiring as modern technology along with research gets further along.
Japanese researchers published a study claiming they can clinically diagnose a treansgender person by MRI imaging the shape and size of the rear portion of the corpus collosum. If this study if found to be repeatable by others, then the idea of transgender being a type of intersex condition could be valid based on the definition of it being congenital morphic incongruence.
However some people born intersex feel including "transgender" as a type of intersex trait diminishes the struggle they go through especially those born with ambiguous or not fully formed genetalia. I can understand their point.
Sex and gender are two different things. Are transgender people intersex? No.
But I presume you are talking about transsexual people. So, are transsexual people intersex? No.
I strongly believe that intersex is condition one is born with. It is sex marker, along with male and female. Whereas the word transsexual is not a sex marker, it only indicates that a person underwent sex change. And if someone transitions, e.g. ftm, then they are male, not intersex.
Quote from: jordn on November 08, 2017, 06:22:37 AM
Sex and gender are two different things. Are transgender people intersex? No.
But I presume you are talking about transsexual people. So, are transsexual people intersex? No.
I strongly believe that intersex is condition one is born with. It is sex marker, along with male and female. Whereas the word transsexual is not a sex marker, it only indicates that a person underwent sex change. And if someone transitions, e.g. ftm, then they are male, not intersex.
So your take is that intersex includes only those conditions linked to the sexual organs in one manner or another? I can see that being a clearly defining line then. Otherwise if the broad term "morphic" is used without limiting to the reproductive organs specifically, the definition of Intersex become far more of a grey area.
When looking up insurance law in my home state I found the law defined intersex as being related to the sex organs not congruent with the assigned sex, ambiguous genetalia, or a genetic abnormality.
I really don't know.
I mean I am sitting right now in panties and a bra. I need the bra. Jesus H. Christ. I look down and all I see is about an inch or maybe and inch and a half so how the hell can I be a man.
I took the bra off and I have boobs. A cups but still boobs. I grew these boobs during puberty but something else has never grown. I look like a 5 year old down there. If I let the "bush" grow, the hair will hide it totally. OMG. I hate hair other than on my head. 8)
Do I think I am intersexed? I really don't know. I have boobs that came in during puberty and other things did not grow.
"INTERSEXED" Sexed being the key word. Being trans is not about sex. Sex we all feel eventually but IDENDTITY especially self IDENTITY is something you should be focused on even if outside of societal norms. You are you and only you can define who and what you are.
The traditional meaning of intersex did not take into account the sexual dimorphism of the brain (as reflected in the size of the BSTc and INAH3) which are similar in natal and transsexual women, and in natal and transsexual men. If you agree that the human brain is an essential part of human sexual reproductive function, it's illogical to exclude it from the definition of intersex.
I consider myself to be intersex because I was born with both male and female parts (male genitals and a female brain). In other words, I was born neither completely male, nor completely female. I also consider myself to be a transsexual woman because I've transformed my male body to be as consistent as possible with my female brain.
The reason I am so positive of being intersex is because of the rapid and remarkable changes that occurred physically, but more importantly mentally, when I changed my sex hormone balance. The testosterone that my body (testes) was producing had a chronic, deleterious effect on my mental state. At least half of my gender dysphoria vanished when the body chemistry incompatibilities were corrected.
I'm not saying that all transgender people are intersex by this expanded definition of intersex There are other factors that cause ->-bleeped-<-, not all of which are pre-natal. But just as an intersex person with ambiguous genitalia can be transgender by having their genitals normalized in conflict with their innate gender identity, so too can someone whose genitals are not ambiguous be transgender if their innate gender identity is in conflict with their genitals. Both are congenital aberrations that may or may not require medical treatment depending on the severity of the incongruity.
Actually I hate the term sex. How about Intergendered? Sex to me is an act of pleasure. Gender on the other hand is a form of identity either self or in society. OMG I like sex but what I got does not identify who and what I am. I may be called a "chick with a dick" but I am still a woman. I am a she male because I am a female with the body of a male even with the boobs which the medical term is gynecomastia but that term does no offend me either.
So intersex? No. Not so much as intergender. But in general human minds are small and they somehow relate gender to sex. Oh I love sex but I am a woman with a penis. That small thing does not define who I am though.
So I really don't know. Being Inter means you travel across lines so maybe. Probably not in a medical sense ever but, maybe.
This is super complicated, but I think eventually ->-bleeped-<- will fall under the intersex category. It's been said that the human brain is the largest sexual organ in the body. So one could argue that if the gender of the brain doesn't match the physical gender at the time of birth, then by definition you have an intersex condition. The issue is there is no clear difference on what a male of female brain looks like even thought there are some ideals [ur=https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/l]here[/url].
My surgeon informed me that when she got in there that I was indeed intersex in that my genitals were not fully formed and there was some scar tissue from either tucking (which she doubted) or there was surgery there a long time ago. There was also scar tissue from surgery of my bowel and the first questioned she asked me after surgery is whether or not I had surgery in those places. I told her to the best of my knowledge that I did not, but when I was 6 years old I remember having a bloody rectum and having to put medicine there. My mother denied any of this and I could tell she was lying about it. (She uses a certain phrase when she lies and doesn't realize that she does it.) This memory has come up with my therapist and we explored it through EMDR, but nothing come out as far as being sexually molested or anything like that. I also do know that my mother was exposed to DES and that most likely I just stopped developing as male at some point and developed female later on, which we do know the brain develops (11-24 weeks) after the genitals (7 weeks) do.
The thing is where does the line get drawn on what is an intersex condition. If I can be classified as intersex with genitals not fully formed then who is to say that this would also apply with the development of gender in the brain. One thing is for sure, even though it's only been 9 days since my GCS. Every feels like where is should be now more than ever. Peeing still feels different since it was one way for so many years, but everything else just feels right now. My mind matches my genitals more now that ever before in my life.
I'm enjoying this discussion, and want to expand on my personal experience. I think it is valuable and possibly helpful to others.
Most people do not distinguish between sex and gender. Gaining acceptance as transgender people is a matter of breaking down this view. The way I see it, sex is biological and deterministic, whereas gender is social and relative. A large part of the transgender movement is pushing society to stop conflating sex and gender. I think that makes sense. In the absence of other people, gender is meaningless, but one's physical body is real and consequential.
I was born intersex. That is, I was born, from a biological standpoint, neither completely male, nor completely female. I consider the sexual differentiation of the brain as important as the sexual differentiation of the genitals when assessing an intersex condition. My diagnosis of intersexuality came very late in life, which is sometimes the case for intersex people. Being intersex had real impact on my life, much of it negative. Four years ago, I learned that the cause of my psychological distress was due to being intersex, and I began steps to alleviate the symptoms.
Up to that point, I identified as a boy/man. Using today's terminology, I was a cisgender male. I had no conscious sense of being a girl/woman. I had no desire to change genders. I didn't habitually cross-dress. I accepted the expectations of the male gender that I was assigned at birth. I didn't put on an act to fool people. Frankly, I thought the way I felt was the way all males felt. Looking back, there were plenty of clues telling me otherwise, but I dismissed them as being aberrations, personal peculiarities, and sometimes frightening perversions.
My dysphoria which began during puberty had nothing to do with gender identity. It was purely a physiological consequence of having been born with a brain that was not adequately masculinized in the later stages of my mother's pregnancy. Then, in my teens, my brain was subjected to high normal male levels of testosterone. It was then that I began experiencing stress, anxiety and depression, and it only got worse with the passage of time.
When coping strategies eventually failed, and my search for answers suggested that my symptoms might be due to my brain having developed without adequate neurological androgen receptors, I decided to put the theory to the test. I started HRT. When my total T level dropped below 100 ng/dl, the improvement in mental health was remarkable. I had never experienced such clarity and peace of mind. When I came off HRT, and my former chemistry was restored, mental anxiety and depression returned full force. I had confirmed that my brain could not function smoothly without estrogen. I resumed HRT and began what would evolve into a complete gender transition.
Today, you could say that I am transgender because I changed my gender identity from man to woman. I present full-time as a woman. It's how I see myself today, and how society sees me. But beyond that, you could say that I'm transsexual because I changed my sexual identity (not sexual orientation) from male to female. I physically transformed my bodily sex from male to female. Being physically female makes life easier, of course, but the main reason I endured the trauma and expense of surgical alternation of my body was to reconcile it with my own internal self image as a woman. It was the second half of my gender dysphoria -- that awful sense of being trapped in the wrong body.
Given the diversity of the transgender community, I'm not for a minute saying that other transgender people are intersex. But for me, it's the only thing that makes sense. I grew up in a normal, intact family, never subjected to sexual abuse, did well in school, had a successful career, got married, and raised children. I was a traditional conformist if ever there was one. What intersex means to me as a transsexual woman is that the reason for my needing to transition genders and transform my physical being was due to a congenital birth defect. Knowing that is somehow comforting to me. It was my fate. I don't blame myself or anyone else.
Quote from: Sydney_NYC on November 11, 2017, 01:40:36 PM
This is super complicated, but I think eventually ->-bleeped-<- will fall under the intersex category. It's been said that the human brain is the largest sexual organ in the body. So one could argue that if the gender of the brain doesn't match the physical gender at the time of birth, then by definition you have an intersex condition. The issue is there is no clear difference on what a male of female brain looks like even thought there are some ideals [ur=https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/l]here[/url].
My surgeon informed me that when she got in there that I was indeed intersex in that my genitals were not fully formed and there was some scar tissue from either tucking (which she doubted) or there was surgery there a long time ago. There was also scar tissue from surgery of my bowel and the first questioned she asked me after surgery is whether or not I had surgery in those places. I told her to the best of my knowledge that I did not, but when I was 6 years old I remember having a bloody rectum and having to put medicine there. My mother denied any of this and I could tell she was lying about it. (She uses a certain phrase when she lies and doesn't realize that she does it.) This memory has come up with my therapist and we explored it through EMDR, but nothing come out as far as being sexually molested or anything like that. I also do know that my mother was exposed to DES and that most likely I just stopped developing as male at some point and developed female later on, which we do know the brain develops (11-24 weeks) after the genitals (7 weeks) do.
The thing is where does the line get drawn on what is an intersex condition. If I can be classified as intersex with genitals not fully formed then who is to say that this would also apply with the development of gender in the brain. One thing is for sure, even though it's only been 9 days since my GCS. Every feels like where is should be now more than ever. Peeing still feels different since it was one way for so many years, but everything else just feels right now. My mind matches my genitals more now that ever before in my life.
Yeah Sydney. I really don't know. I can Use DES but I really can't either. I man my junk is the size of a five year old boys and hasn't grown since I was 5. I did grow boobs in puberty though. A cups and noticeable.
Intersexed? I am looking down right now and "it" is less than one inch long. :embarrassed: It almost looks like an XL Clitoris.
I am a trans woman. I don't want nor need any excuses. Whatever happened in the womb just happened. Nothing will change the fact that I am a trans woman though. I don't know what happened that made me trans or don't even care. I am just sort of thankful of it. That sounds messed up but I know both minds so that is a good thing right???
Quote from: Jenntrans on November 13, 2017, 04:09:55 PM
Yeah Sydney. I really don't know. I can Use DES but I really can't either. I man my junk is the size of a five year old boys and hasn't grown since I was 5. I did grow boobs in puberty though. A cups and noticeable.
Intersexed? I am looking down right now and "it" is less than one inch long. :embarrassed: It almost looks like an XL Clitoris.
I am a trans woman. I don't want nor need any excuses. Whatever happened in the womb just happened. Nothing will change the fact that I am a trans woman though. I don't know what happened that made me trans or don't even care. I am just sort of thankful of it. That sounds messed up but I know both minds so that is a good thing right???
It all good.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify my being transgender with DES or intersex, I am what I am and that's it and at the end of the day it doesn't change anything. I'm just saying there is a collation between transgender being classified as an intersex condition. Perhaps transgender is in itself one thing under the intersex umbrella if the gender of the brain does not match the gender assigned at birth.
All that matters now is that I've transitioned completely and now I begin living life the gender I should have lived all along.
I've always leaned toward thinking that transgender is typically an intersex condition of the brain, and also that it's likely many people who identify as transgender may fall into the intersex category without ever realizing or recieving the diagnosis.
While I could be wrong, I've often thought that if transgender were understood as a type of intersex with a physically inborn component then then transgender people would be seen with more validity by society as a whole
Quote from: extraaction on November 14, 2017, 09:09:59 AM
I've always leaned toward thinking that transgender is typically an intersex condition of the brain, and also that it's likely many people who identify as transgender may fall into the intersex category without ever realizing or recieving the diagnosis.
While I could be wrong, I've often thought that if transgender were understood as a type of intersex with a physically inborn component then then transgender people would be seen with more validity by society as a whole
Around the world, many Intersex babies won't be recognized as people, due to how many cultures view us. Making ->-bleeped-<- some sort of Intersex condition, isn't going to make things any better. Many of us have had our bodies violated, mostly after birth.
Here is the qeustion, why do you care?
Quote from: AlexISAlex on January 06, 2018, 01:34:12 AM
Here is the qeustion, why do you care?
Many of us struggle to know ourselves. It's been the challenge of my life, and I'm only beginning to understand why I am as I am. My first serious attempt to answer that question took place while I was in college. I had access to virtually everything written about human sexuality at the university where I studied. What I learned from the experts of that day was more hurtful than helpful. Being told you have a psychological disorder is a horrible burden to bear at any age.
The view that ->-bleeped-<- is some form of mental derangement/delusion continues today across a broad spectrum of the general population. Even the so called experts don't agree on the causes of ->-bleeped-<-. To further the confusion, the term transgender has come to include all forms of gender variant behavior, including forms that most likely are psychological in origin which only serves to reinforce the mindset that all transgender people suffer from a mental disorder.
It was somewhat comforting for me to learn that I was born partly female. I'm talking sex, not gender. My brain was not sufficiently masculinized during fetal development. Knowing that my condition resulted from biological processes that neither I nor anyone else had control over, takes away the shame and the guilt of being trans. I am but another variation in the sexual development of human beings in utero.
Why do I identify as intersex? Because as I understand the biology, the incomplete formation of the genitals and the incomplete masculinization of the brain are caused by the same hormonal forces, only separated on the gestation timeline. Intersex is about sex, not gender. My situation was not so much about gender identity as it was about the physiological incompatibility of my body and brain, the physical symptoms of which were eliminated by HRT. Gender transition and genital surgery followed as a consequence of HRT. They were never primary motivations during my lifetime.
I understand the reluctance of intersex people to expand the definition of intersexuality to include those with body-brain incompatibility. I understand the stigma that intersex people have to endure. I just wish that people could understand that having genitals that don't reflect your gender identity, whether they are ambiguously formed, surgically mutilated in childhood, or normal looking, have similar consequences on the mental health and well-being of the individual.
The problem with not recognizing mind-body incongruity as type of intersex condition is that people like me (and particularly children) have to fight for proper medical treatment by overcoming the widespread perception that their condition is a mental rather than a physical health issue.
while not all intersex people are transgender (many will identify as intersex/nonbinary), i think it is important that we acknowledge transgender as a type of intersex condition. just because the external parts may not be visibly intersex doesn't mean there is not a physical/biological component. "transgender" is something that happens internally--in the brain--rather than externally, but it is not a "mental disorder", and recognizing this fact is critical to getting adequate healthcare and treatment.
edit; i think the poster above me said all this much more clearly and eloquently
Quote from: kuudos on August 30, 2017, 04:52:45 PM
I've seen both sides to the argument - Intersex people saying that being trans is different from being interesex, but I've also heard trans people make good points: ->-bleeped-<- has been categorized by some medical practitioners as an intersex disorder, a mixture of a brain-body switch and hormones present during fetal stage that didn't fully develop, along with the fact that transgender individuals undergoing transition fit the loose definition of intersex - Having physical qualities from both sexes. I would normally class the two as completely separate things, but I started wondering this question again after I did research and learned that transmales often have a mixture of both genitals, even a clit that can get fully erect.
There's a popular, but incorrect, belief that whether you develop as male or female depends on whether you have XY or XX chromosomes. In fact, all the X and Y chromosomes do is, about 6 weeks into your embryonic development, cause you to develop either ovaries or testicles. Everything from that point onwards is driven by hormones. More specifically, if you have functional testicles churning out their usual complement of hormones (and your body is able to respond to those hormones), you'll develop as male. Otherwise you'll develop as female instead. Whether your chromosomes are XX or XY doesn't make any difference. This is easily demonstrated by a condition called Swyer's Syndrome, in which the testicles of a genetically male fetus fail to develop.
Here's an example of one such person:
https://www.interfaceproject.org/ali-von-klan/
as you can see, despite being genetically male, she both looks and behaves just like any normal woman would. She was born with female genitals, and has all the female internal reproductive organs too (apart from ovaries). With the appropriate hormone treatment to mature her uterus and with eggs implanted via donor IVF, she could even fall pregnant and give birth. That's how important testicular hormones are in determining sex!
There's a condition called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS), which also produces people who are genetically male but developmentally female, and who both look and behave like women. With CAIS, the testicles do actually develop as normal and produce their hormones like they should, however the condition involves a mutation that renders that person completely unresponsive to the androgenic hormones the testicles produce, so all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. As with Swyer's syndrome, the result is a person who appears female at birth, looks and behaves like a girl while growing up, and often doesn't even discover until her teenage years that she's unusual in any way. This allows us to narrow things down even further and say that it's mainly testosterone and a hormone derived from it called dihydrotestosterone (or DHT), that causes a person to develop as male. Without those hormones, you develop as female instead, even if you have XY chromosomes.
(https://i.imgur.com/hq5SoYW.png)
This is a diagram taken from an endocrinology textbook, showing the key events in male genital development. You can see how nearly all the important stuff takes place from week 7 to week 12 after conception, the only further development taking place after that point is enlargement of the penis and testicular descent.
If the testicular hormone production of a genetically male baby goes wrong between week 7 and week 12, that person will be born with hypospadias, or in really severe cases the scrotum will be split and have a cavity in the middle. If their testicular hormone production goes wrong from week 13 onwards, there won't be much physical evidence of it apart from possibly undescended testicles and/or a penis that's shorter than normal. The medical definition of intersex is based around genitals, so under that definition, intersex people are those who had something go wrong with their hormones between week 7 and 12 after conception.
However, it's not just the genitals that differ between the sexes. There are important differences in the brain as well, that drive most of the differences between adult men's and women's social and sexual behaviour (and your inner sense of whether you're a man or a woman). As with the genitals, those brain differences are driven by the presence or absence of testicular hormones. We know this because, among other things, scientists have produced female animals with male brains and male behaviour, just by exposing them to externally administered testosterone at the appropriate stage in their prenatal development. Exposing female fetuses to testosterone early in their development mainly affects their genitals; later in development it mainly affects the sex of their brain and their subsequent adult behaviour.
So, intersex isn't just something that can affect the genitals. It can affect the brain as well, and there's increasing scientific evidence that being transgender is caused by a form of intersex affecting the brain.
Unfortunately, none of this seems to have filtered through to the world of medicine, where doctors have happily been treating pregnant women with hormones of various kinds ever since the 1940s (when it first became possible to mass produce hormones for use as medicines). Due to differences in the way fetal metabolism works, at least two hormones that saw substantial use during pregnancy in the 1950s and 60s, ethisterone and norethisterone, turned out to be potent testosterone mimics in unborn babies. From 1940 to about 1980, an estrogen called diethystilbestrol (or DES), that acts as a powerful chemical castration agent in adult men, was extensively used in pregnancy too.
Considering the importance of testicular hormones (particularly testosterone) in determining whether you develop as male or female, exposing unborn babies to these drugs is an obvious recipe for disaster, and is likely to result in people who've partly developed as the wrong sex. Most of the exposure to these and other drugs given to prevent miscarriages tends to happen after the critical week 7 to week 12 period for genital development has ended, so you'd expect the result to be people who physically appear to be their genetic sex, but whose brain is the opposite sex or a mixture of male and female. That's what appears to have happened with DES, and I think it's happened with ethisterone and norethisterone too (although hardly anyone knows about these two drugs, since unlike DES there was no cancer scare and never any activist movement associated with them).
WOW, very interesting.
There is also an article directly in the Susan's ne s section with additional research on DES: https://www.susans.org/2018/01/02/des-exposure-intersex-development-males/
Follow the link to the original research... contains the same graphic!
HughE, have you seen any information on the skeletal change timeline?
I have searched for such information but it seems not readily available. Doctors tell me things in the bones like shape of the joints is prenatal but I have not seen where in the developmental timeline hormones effect these changes.
To be specific the joint profiles I know to look for as gender specific are the knee, elbows (to a lesser extent), and the sacroiliac joint profiles.
In the adult skeleton these are readily apparent but looking closely things like knee angles are visually different in children as is the pelvic width as the sacrum is already wider in pre-pubecienct younger kids.
The skeletal differences mainly arise as a result of the different hormones present in boys and girls as they go through puberty.
If you're a natal male but have lower than normal male levels of testosterone during childhood and puberty, it leads to you developing long, slender limbs and other skeletal proportions that are more like what you'd typically get in a woman rather than a man. This type of body structure is known as "eunuchoid habitus", and these are some of the characteristics associated with it:
* long, slender arms and legs
* feminine looking facial features
* legs significantly longer than the height of your upper body
* an armspan more than 3cm greater than your height
* sparse or very fine body hair
* a female pubic hair pattern (like an upside down triangle and confined to the pubic area)
* an inability to build upper body muscle
* gynecomastica
* a female carrying angle
* a female digit ratio
(in my case, I don't know if they apply more generally)
* small, high arched feet
* long, luxuriant eyelashes
* clear, acne free skin as a teenager
From what the medical literature says, it's the pubertal hormone surge that causes the differences between male and female skeletal proportions to arise, but you're right, I have noticed that you can already see the skeletal differences starting to develop in children well before they reach puberty. Although sex hormone production is quite low during childhood, maybe there's still enough of them being produced in children to have some effect on skeletal development. Or maybe there's some other factor in addition to sex hormones. I don't think genetics (XX vs XY) has anything to do with it though, because XY women (e.g. Swyer's Syndrome, or Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) all seem to have female skeletal proportions.
I know most literature discusses those pubescent affected differences. The only thing I have to go on is a couple of doctors and a couple of PAs who all said the joint profiles are specifically prenatal as that is when the bone shapes themselves form. Everything after birth is bone growth but not shape.
When the subject of being trans comes up several medical professionals have shown some interest in the subject. So I have asked them if they wanted to see the 3d images of my CT scan. Medical people especially the newer generation seem really interested in the subject. So far they have all given my scans the confused look and a long "huh that's really interesting". One suggested I should show them to a physical therapist or radiologist and see what they think. As internists, they tend to say that they studied skeletal features early in med school but it's not their specialty.
Some of what I know in regards to adolescent growth matches alot of what you list. Girls are shorter overall because female hormones come in a years or so before males start. This triggers the beginning of calcification of the long bone growth plates. Male hormones also have effects in puberty increasing other bone sizes as well as skull bone growth of the mandible, brow ridge, cheek bone zygomatic arch increasing in length beyond the ear canal entry, larger muscle attachment ridges all over the skull, ect.
What doctors all say is prenatal is bone joint end profiles. The knees are so much different that companies now make gender specific artificial knees. These angles match the normally wider female pelvis so to make a person have straight lower legs. Young girls all show a markedly visable knock knee before puberty. Their sacrums are wider at a young age. The joint profile of the sacrum to ilium is very different between girls and boys. If examined closely even a young person shows these differences in a CT scan. Females have a sacrum that is approx 3* the width of the base of the spine where males are approximately 2* the total spine base width.
Quote from: natalie.ashlyne on November 07, 2017, 07:44:56 PM
No not all transgender people are intersex and not all intersex people are transgender. I am both I have female organs inside of me but I was AMAB as I have male parts as well. I have alway felt female and when I went to the Doctors I found out with after alot of tests.
Just out of curiosity, what was your final diagnosis? I have 3 leading ones so far. The most prevelant is gonadal dysgenesis with mullerian structures intact (Swyers with a bonus).. the others are pseudohermaphroditism and partial androgen insensitivity. Personally I just think I got screwed but who's keeping score. Been having non stop daily cramps for months and they can't seem to figure out why (ammenorhea). Hopefully soon. I have no internal male parts, had reassigned external stuff (somewhat ambiguous, but still erring on the amab side).. and the mullerian stuff (look it up, its good for you) :)
I can relate to all this, in fact could write a book but will try to keep it short. Well after 10 years, 25 doctors and more tests then I can count I have one conclusion I firmly feel the Doctors do not care to,anyway in my case first was born in 1948 and 98% sure I was exposed to DES, which has resulted in "Form of variation of moasic kleinfelter syndrome". I was prescribed T for nearly 3 years and all that happened was my T levels went down my E levels increased but the osteoporosis excelerated, it was awful which came down to "partial androgen insensativity syndrome" and" hypogonadism" another doctor called it "an endrocain disruptor disorder" and finally another agreed with the others plus added "vanishing twin syndrome". I am blessed with general overall good health except for a spine which is a disaaster;I am now into my 5th year of estrogen and all blood work has stabilized, the osteoporosis has reversed (DEXA scans do not lie)but still disabled from the damage done. I guess I am both trans (have felt that way since age 5 or 6) and intersex. I thank you all for posting it has been great help to me to know I am not alone if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask as there is much more then room he will permit, my prayers are with and for us all.
Quote from: DeidraDee on January 10, 2018, 04:57:20 AM
I can relate to all this, in fact could write a book but will try to keep it short. Well after 10 years, 25 doctors and more tests then I can count I have one conclusion I firmly feel the Doctors do not care to,anyway in my case first was born in 1948 and 98% sure I was exposed to DES, which has resulted in "Form of variation of moasic kleinfelter syndrome". I was prescribed T for nearly 3 years and all that happened was my T levels went down my E levels increased but the osteoporosis excelerated, it was awful which came down to "partial androgen insensativity syndrome" and" hypogonadism" another doctor called it "an endrocain disruptor disorder" and finally another agreed with the others plus added "vanishing twin syndrome". I am blessed with general overall good health except for a spine which is a disaaster;I am now into my 5th year of estrogen and all blood work has stabilized, the osteoporosis has reversed (DEXA scans do not lie)but still disabled from the damage done. I guess I am both trans (have felt that way since age 5 or 6) and intersex. I thank you all for posting it has been great help to me to know I am not alone if anyone has any questions please feel free to ask as there is much more then room he will permit, my prayers are with and for us all.
I specifically asked my mother if she used DES or any form of hormones when i was born, a question she flatly denies... then again I was born while father was in prison, she was lonely, and she's blatantly lied about so many things in the past its to the point I don't believe anything she sayd. I do know I was given alleged 'allergy shots' around when I was 10 and experienced a tremendous growth spurt (literally a foot I grew) when I turned 11. However, my voice didn't deepen and I did not develop any pubic hair. There is something bad that happened, I know it... but getting her to admit is, good luck. She wasn't shocked at all when I showed her I had no testosterone at all when I turned 21, but I DID have estrogen being produced. She just calmly suggested I get on testosterone therapy or take herbal testosterone. The world is full of people that will mislead you intentionally... she made an occupation out of it in my opinion. She will admit to having calcium problems when I was born, and she got in a bad car accident too when she was pregnant with me.. she stated she was under terrible stress in that time (which I don't doubt); That's all I have been able to get her to admit.
I consider myself intersex for me I feel most of my suffering comes from being intersex not transgender. That's just a symptom of the issue. I have xx/xy chimerism but only like less than 10% of my genome is actually xy. Which is my problem. As a result I believe my brain has a more male genotype but much my body is xx (I still have xy karyotype in my body other than my brain like in my saliva). So I have always felt like I was male like I should have a male body in other words my twin brother but instead have a body like a female the twin sister. That results in me being intersex. It's rare though most intersex people identify with the gender they were assigned. For me the way my cells are distributed is just a matter of bad luck. At the end of the day it's the way I was born and the way GOD made me. I can't say I'd rather have died off completely. It's better to exist than not exist at all. Chimerism is when twins fuse together. It just happens I seem to be more my twin brother mentally and probably others ways I'm not aware of and reproductively and physically mostly my twin sister. So of course that's going to make for some issues. But nothing I can't work through.
Whether the cells within it are XX or XY cells doesn't appear to have any bearing on the sex of your brain. That depends on whether there were low or high levels of androgens present when it was forming.
I started out thinking I must have XX/XY chimerism because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I got to find out more about how the biology of sexual development works, the conclusion I eventually reached is that my genes are ordinary XY genes, and I would have been a completely typical male, except something happened partway through my prenatal development that temporarily shut down my testosterone production, so that the early stages of the process of building the permanent structure of my brain took place with little or no testosterone present (whereas the later stages took place with normal male levels of testosterone). I think that's what produced my brain, where the more evolutionarily ancient parts (controlling stuff like instinctive behaviour and body language) seem to be female, whereas the more evolutionarily advanced parts (that control things like language and conscious thought) are male.
You can see how XX vs XY has little if any bearing on whether you have a male or female brain, by looking at XY women (e.g. who have Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or Swyer's Syndrome, two conditions that cause people who are genetically male to develop as female). They universally seem to be feminine women, not just in the way they look but in the way they behave too. Often they don't even find out about their condition until they're teenagers.
Here's some examples on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiXVO5sEci0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vDVUPjBJiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iOMsNaF-Js
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9OKI8spk0
As you can see, they're all normal looking women with typical female personalities and behaviour. It's not just their bodies that are female, but their brains are as well. That's despite all the cells in their bodies being genetically male (XY).
yeah I think that because in the case of androgen insensitivity syndrome they are immune to testosterone so are their brains so that's self explanatory then with swyer's syndrome they don't an sry gene to function as male. In my case I have indeed at least functioning sry gene proteins etc... The thing is most of my genome is xx and the rest is xy 9% or so. My body isn't immune to testosterone it just has a very little of what it's working with generally speaking. But I do produce a lot of testosterone for a female
Quote from: HughE on January 15, 2018, 04:05:03 PM
Whether the cells within it are XX or XY cells doesn't appear to have any bearing on the sex of your brain. That depends on whether there were low or high levels of androgens present when it was forming.
I started out thinking I must have XX/XY chimerism because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I got to find out more about how the biology of sexual development works, the conclusion I eventually reached is that my genes are ordinary XY genes, and I would have been a completely typical male, except something happened partway through my prenatal development that temporarily shut down my testosterone production, so that the early stages of the process of building the permanent structure of my brain took place with little or no testosterone present (whereas the later stages took place with normal male levels of testosterone). I think that's what produced my brain, where the more evolutionarily ancient parts (controlling stuff like instinctive behaviour and body language) seem to be female, whereas the more evolutionarily advanced parts (that control things like language and conscious thought) are male.
You can see how XX vs XY has little if any bearing on whether you have a male or female brain, by looking at XY women (e.g. who have Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or Swyer's Syndrome, two conditions that cause people who are genetically male to develop as female). They universally seem to be feminine women, not just in the way they look but in the way they behave too. Often they don't even find out about their condition until they're teenagers.
Here's some examples on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiXVO5sEci0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vDVUPjBJiM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iOMsNaF-Js
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9OKI8spk0
As you can see, they're all normal looking women with typical female personalities and behaviour. It's not just their bodies that are female, but their brains are as well. That's despite all the cells in their bodies being genetically male (XY).
transgender seems like a neurological case of intersex as I unederstand it
Quote from: dmj23 on January 15, 2018, 08:02:00 PM
yeah I think that because in the case of androgen insensitivity syndrome they are immune to testosterone so are their brains so that's self explanatory then with swyer's syndrome they don't an sry gene to function as male. In my case I have indeed at least functioning sry gene proteins etc... The thing is most of my genome is xx and the rest is xy 9% or so. My body isn't immune to testosterone it just has a very little of what it's working with generally speaking. But I do produce a lot of testosterone for a female
Supposedly the majority of people with Swyer's have a missing SRY gene, however no matter what causes it, if testicular dysgenesis occurs, then a genetically male fetus will develop as female. XYSuz (one of the ladies in those videos) has Frazier syndrome, which, although it prevents the testicles from developing, is caused by a mutation on chromosome 10 I think, so has nothing to do with the X or Y chromosomes. Her Y chromosome is completely normal, but nonetheless she's developed as female.
Whether you're XX or XY has no bearing on which sex you develop as. That appears to be entirely dependent on hormones. It's just that the vast majority of XX people develop ovaries and XY people testicles, and the vast majority of the time those organs function as they should throughout prenatal development, so we have the illusion that XX = female and XY = male. In fact, it's XX = ovaries (most of the time), and XY = testicles (most of the time). Everything else is down to hormones.
Quote from: HughE on January 17, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
Supposedly the majority of people with Swyer's have a missing SRY gene, however no matter what causes it, if testicular dysgenesis occurs, then a genetically male fetus will develop as female. XYSuz (one of the ladies in those videos) has Frazier syndrome, which, although it prevents the testicles from developing, is caused by a mutation on chromosome 10 I think, so has nothing to do with the X or Y chromosomes. Her Y chromosome is completely normal, but nonetheless she's developed as female.
Whether you're XX or XY has no bearing on which sex you develop as. That appears to be entirely dependent on hormones. It's just that the vast majority of XX people develop ovaries and XY people testicles, and the vast majority of the time those organs function as they should throughout prenatal development, so we have the illusion that XX = female and XY = male. In fact, it's XX = ovaries (most of the time), and XY = testicles (most of the time). Everything else is down to hormones.
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fraser-syndrome/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_syndrome
It doesn't show anything on fraser syndrome about developing as female so I am not sure how much I believe that.
In my case it hasn't been that at all I have ovaries and xx chromosomes. And I know a case where the people with cais identified as male not female
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272
But like I said I think for me for whatever reason I knew I was male before any diagnosis I just didn't understand how and that was confusing to the point that I rather hide it than actually be open about it. So no in some cases some people do identify as male despite the disorder it just depends on the person. I think there's a connection in my case with having xx/xy karyotype and having a male identity. I think it has to do with having sry genes that are functioning considering one part of one's body could be predominantly one genotypes and another part the other genotype. Chimerism though is hard to understand then swyer syndrome or complete androgen insensitivity syndrome is. But imo I feel it has affected my gender identity. Because given if the lesser contributing member had a full genotype of its own and survived that person would be a regular man. And I would be a regular female 100%. Rather than female in some parts and male in other parts. You see someone with swyer syndrome or cais function as female as a whole as they are. While someone with chimerism xx/xy will have some parts that are xx and other parts that are xy. And the two genotype contributing would be fully functioning members of the opposite sex had they survived early in the pregnancy etc....
Quote from: dmj23 on January 17, 2018, 09:35:12 PM
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fraser-syndrome/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_syndrome
It doesn't show anything on fraser syndrome about developing as female so I am not sure how much I believe that.
In my case it hasn't been that at all I have ovaries and xx chromosomes. And I know a case where the people with cais identified as male not female
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272
But like I said I think for me for whatever reason I knew I was male before any diagnosis I just didn't understand how and that was confusing to the point that I rather hide it than actually be open about it. So no in some cases some people do identify as male despite the disorder it just depends on the person. I think there's a connection in my case with having xx/xy karyotype and having a male identity.
Not all swyers have missing sry genes ... just look it up by google Because the SRY gene is on the Y chromosome, Swyer syndrome caused by SRY gene mutations is described as having a Y-linked inheritance pattern. When Swyer syndrome is associated with an MAP3K1 or NR5A1 gene mutation, the condition is also usually caused by a new mutation. from https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome Sometimes there are mutations, double copies, insertions, deletions, etc.. of the genome on the SRY too.
There are also cases of swyer where they may not have been born completely female genitals, or they might have a functioning uterus, or they might not.. or might have a vaginal dimple, or a fully formed vagina, etc.. etc..
I was diagnosed as gonadal dysgenesis with mullerian structures intact, yet that's not my full story either because the endocrinologist stated I had a form of partial androgen sensitivity based on my hormonal studies.. which itself isn't accurate because then I'd actually have testosterone. Its a huge mess
Intersexed to me basically means something didn't quite go right at birth.. and that's ok. Most of us things didn't go 'right' at birth or else we wouldn't be questioning this now would we :) :)
In the end its not whatever diagnosis or genes or whatever that tells you who you are. YOU tell you who you are. A diagnosis helps to understand health complications & long term risks though. Its all a voyage of discovery.
I know but not every condition is the same swyer syndrome like I said is one person with some mutation that affects the sry from being affective. My situation is different. I have a form of chimerism xx/xy like I said before chimerism is hard to understand for some and is not at all like cais or swyer syndrome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/46,_XX/46,XY
As you can see the cause for xx/xy is different from the conditions you are mentioning. It affects people on varying levels. So no one really knows what it can't or can affect.
I have a I guess mild form of this condition that's what my doctor suggested and that's what I was referencing since I am not one with swyer syndrome or cais. I was born female in appearance at birth but identify as male and have close to 10% xy genotype.
Quote from: Doreen on January 17, 2018, 09:44:10 PM
Not all swyers have missing sry genes ... just look it up by google Because the SRY gene is on the Y chromosome, Swyer syndrome caused by SRY gene mutations is described as having a Y-linked inheritance pattern. When Swyer syndrome is associated with an MAP3K1 or NR5A1 gene mutation, the condition is also usually caused by a new mutation. from https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome
There are also cases of swyer where they may not have been born completely female genitals, or they might have a functioning uterus, or they might not.. or might have a vaginal dimple, or a fully formed vagina, etc.. etc..
I was diagnosed as gonadal dysgenesis with mullerian structures intact, yet that's not my full story either because the endocrinologist stated I had a form of partial androgen sensitivity based on my hormonal studies.. which itself isn't accurate because then I'd actually have testosterone. Its a huge mess
Intersexed to me basically means something didn't quite go right at birth.. and that's ok. Most of us things didn't go 'right' at birth or else we wouldn't be questioning this now would we :) :)
In the end its not whatever diagnosis or genes or whatever that tells you who you are. YOU tell you who you are. A diagnosis helps to understand health complications & long term risks though. Its all a voyage of discovery.
For me at birth everything was fine and in this sense the same can be said for someone with cais or swyer syndrome because many people if not most people with an intersex condition don't have ambiguous genitalia.
For me my diagnosis shed light on myself because in many ways I don't feel trans and so for me I thought I was just crazy but then I realized what really happened which was really fulfilling to be aware of. Plus I always have issues with my cycles which has a lot to do with the physical health of my situation
Quote from: dmj23 on January 17, 2018, 09:35:12 PM
https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/fraser-syndrome/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_syndrome
It doesn't show anything on fraser syndrome about developing as female so I am not sure how much I believe that.
It's Frasier syndrome, not Fraser syndrome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier_syndrome
Quote
In my case it hasn't been that at all I have ovaries and xx chromosomes. And I know a case where the people with cais identified as male not female
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272
In nature, there's exceptions to every rule. Maybe that person is a chimera, with their somatic cells all containing the CAIS mutation, but the cell line that gave rise to their brain having a functional androgen receptor gene, with the result that their body didn't masculinize but their brain did. Maybe there's some other explanation. In any case, that person is an exception. The vast majority of the thousands of CAIS women worldwide have feminine mannerisms, behaviour etc, and a female gender identity, as those YouTube videos show. If the Y chromosome gave you a male brain, then most CAIS women would behave like men and have a male gender identity. According to the scientific literature, CAIS women seem to almost universally be feminine women with a female gender identity (like the ones you see on YouTube).
Compare what happens with CAIS with what happened to David Reimer for instance. After his penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision, he was given a female body through surgery while he was still an infant. He'd had had a normal male prenatal development though, with androgen exposure while his brain was developing. Despite looking like a girl and being raised as female, he never fitted in as female, and ended up reverting to living as a man as soon as he was old enough to do so.
Confirming that it's hormones and not genes that determine both your physical sex and the sex of your brain, experiments have also been conducted on animals, where female fetuses were exposed to testosterone during their prenatal development. These experiments show that just administering testosterone to the pregnant mother can cause a female fetus to undergo physical male development (if the exposure occurs early in the pregnancy), or develop a male brain (if the exposure occurs during the later stages of the pregnancy). In fish, you can even cause complete sex reversal by exposing newly hatched fish fry to the appropriate hormones.
I've been trying to find scientific research showing that the Y chromosome can influence your brain's sex independently of hormones, but there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence that it can. It all seems to be down to hormones.
XX/XY chimerism can be a cause of intersex, but the way it does it is through you developing ovotestis, or gonads containing a mixture of ovarian and testicular cells. This can lead to you having hormone levels that are intermediate between male and female during the time your prenatal development is taking place. So again, it's down to hormones, not genes.
Quote from: HughE on January 20, 2018, 09:48:30 AM
It's Frasier syndrome, not Fraser syndrome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier_syndrome
In nature, there's exceptions to every rule. Maybe that person is a chimera, with their somatic cells all containing the CAIS mutation, but the cell line that gave rise to their brain having a functional androgen receptor gene, with the result that their body didn't masculinize but their brain did. Maybe there's some other explanation. In any case, that person is an exception. The vast majority of the thousands of CAIS women worldwide have feminine mannerisms, behaviour etc, and a female gender identity, as those YouTube videos show. If the Y chromosome gave you a male brain, then most CAIS women would behave like men and have a male gender identity. According to the scientific literature, CAIS women seem to almost universally be feminine women with a female gender identity (like the ones you see on YouTube).
Compare what happens with CAIS with what happened to David Reimer for instance. After his penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision, he was given a female body through surgery while he was still an infant. He'd had had a normal male prenatal development though, with androgen exposure while his brain was developing. Despite looking like a girl and being raised as female, he never fitted in as female, and ended up reverting to living as a man as soon as he was old enough to do so.
Confirming that it's hormones and not genes that determine both your physical sex and the sex of your brain, experiments have also been conducted on animals, where female fetuses were exposed to testosterone during their prenatal development. These experiments show that just administering testosterone to the pregnant mother can cause a female fetus to undergo physical male development (if the exposure occurs early in the pregnancy), or develop a male brain (if the exposure occurs during the later stages of the pregnancy). In fish, you can even cause complete sex reversal by exposing newly hatched fish fry to the appropriate hormones.
I've been trying to find scientific research showing that the Y chromosome can influence your brain's sex independently of hormones, but there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence that it can. It all seems to be down to hormones.
XX/XY chimerism can be a cause of intersex, but the way it does it is through you developing ovotestis, or gonads containing a mixture of ovarian and testicular cells. This can lead to you having hormone levels that are intermediate between male and female during the time your prenatal development is taking place. So again, it's down to hormones, not genes.
no not true. I don't have ovotestes. And having xx/xy chimerism actually makes you intersex no matter what your hormone levels are. I was told this specifically by my doctor. And honestly I had my levels checked and they're from what the gynecologist said within range.
And like I said I knew I was really male before any test showed this. There's obviously a correlation between the two. That's my experience and for you to act like that's not my experience is just the same as someone to discount your experience.
As far as cais women they aren't men. Clearly. Their genetic make up is female. Yeah I said it their genetic make up is female. Reason I said this and am saying it now is because women with cais have a genetic make up that makes them develop as female because of their genetic make up therefore their brains will function the same. Their y isn't a male y chromosome that's why it doesn't function like male y chromosomes do. They don't even have body hair and have very high pitch voices. And they have hips narrow shoulders etc.... Now as for me my y does function like a male y functions as I do have functioning sry genes and androgen receptors etc... Only difference with me and another male is I have less cells to make up a full male genotype. Had I had a full xy genotype and I'd be a 24 year old biological man fully xy with a fraternal sister who was full xx. This is why I have masculine traits like narrow hips and broad shoulders and a deeper voice and hirsutism etc... Because unlike women with cais I can process androgen despite having ovaries I do have more T than the average ciswoman does even naturally. So like I said before don't compare me to someone who's ar is impaired. Because mine is fine. That's not what makes me intersex. Of course things are going to be different depending on what condition you have.I don't have testicles or ovotestes or high t or gonoadal streaks. But yes I am still intersex as there are many other intersex conditions out there. Maybe you should look them up before telling me how or who and what I should be and act like. Do you see that you've become what some people speak against in this community? Seriously?
btw stop deducing women to their genitals. And implying women with cais are really men. That makes me uncomfortable. Women with cais if left alone function like women do without medical intervention. And they go through a typical puberty that women do they're even shaped like women are. The only difference is they're bigger than women in their families. They don't even grow body hair it's clear they're more feminine than women who are not intersex. Especially since these women can not receive any androgen. You can't compare a faab person with hirsutism and a male habitus body to someone like that because of course clearly one person has more symptoms that are in common with men and more likely will identify with them than someone who outwardly shows they have no exposure to androgen. So that would actually apply to non intersex faab people as well. I remember hearing from one woman with cais that she can go a month without a shower and not stink because her body did not mature in this manner because she can't process androgen. Lastly a male fetus imo does not turn female if they have no androgens a woman's body isn't just having a vagina. There's a whole thing called puberty too for females as well.
Also I don't think it has to do with androgen invitro completely for everyone. I've seen articles about the digit ratio showing what possibly was the environment prenatally and guess what? I saw quite a lot of transwomen with the same digit ratio I have and I identify as male and have the expected ratio men have so does my mom and she isn't a man. I don't think that's what determines who's male or female. I think it's something naturally ingrained in you.
Also when I say for myself I identify as male I mean physically. I don't see masculine and feminine as a real thing. As in all realness it's made up. Men in the middle east wear dresses yet no one says they are feminine. The massai women in Kenya shave their heads no one says they are masculine. It's all about culture and social norms. And I really don't think anyone's born with cultural customs. I think we are raised with them and then realize which side takes up what and then identifies with it. Taking up their cultural custom is just a move to belong and fit in. So I don't think natural women or men with or without a condition are set up to do any set of things because it's all around culture. I know being intersex did not make me gravitate to wearing pants maybe not even influence my favorite colors. But I do think it influence feelings innately. That's something that couldn't be ignored and can't be overlooked
Quote from: HughE on January 20, 2018, 09:48:30 AM
It's Frasier syndrome, not Fraser syndrome.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier_syndrome
In nature, there's exceptions to every rule. Maybe that person is a chimera, with their somatic cells all containing the CAIS mutation, but the cell line that gave rise to their brain having a functional androgen receptor gene, with the result that their body didn't masculinize but their brain did. Maybe there's some other explanation. In any case, that person is an exception. The vast majority of the thousands of CAIS women worldwide have feminine mannerisms, behaviour etc, and a female gender identity, as those YouTube videos show. If the Y chromosome gave you a male brain, then most CAIS women would behave like men and have a male gender identity. According to the scientific literature, CAIS women seem to almost universally be feminine women with a female gender identity (like the ones you see on YouTube).
Compare what happens with CAIS with what happened to David Reimer for instance. After his penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision, he was given a female body through surgery while he was still an infant. He'd had had a normal male prenatal development though, with androgen exposure while his brain was developing. Despite looking like a girl and being raised as female, he never fitted in as female, and ended up reverting to living as a man as soon as he was old enough to do so.
Confirming that it's hormones and not genes that determine both your physical sex and the sex of your brain, experiments have also been conducted on animals, where female fetuses were exposed to testosterone during their prenatal development. These experiments show that just administering testosterone to the pregnant mother can cause a female fetus to undergo physical male development (if the exposure occurs early in the pregnancy), or develop a male brain (if the exposure occurs during the later stages of the pregnancy). In fish, you can even cause complete sex reversal by exposing newly hatched fish fry to the appropriate hormones.
I've been trying to find scientific research showing that the Y chromosome can influence your brain's sex independently of hormones, but there doesn't appear to be any solid evidence that it can. It all seems to be down to hormones.
XX/XY chimerism can be a cause of intersex, but the way it does it is through you developing ovotestis, or gonads containing a mixture of ovarian and testicular cells. This can lead to you having hormone levels that are intermediate between male and female during the time your prenatal development is taking place. So again, it's down to hormones, not genes.
djm23
I agree that social gender roles are socially created. However somewhere deep in our brains there are gender specific instincts wired in. I'm not sure even how to explain it but having lived a life experiencing the fact that my instincts, my wants, do not match my social role I was expected to be. When I speak of instinctual wants I do not mean anything logical. It is something deep in the operating system of my brain. It involves many aspects from what I can tell about myself. How I think in general is very different than men in any observed group I have known. The way guys interact with each other is always sort of foreign in a way however being involved in female social groups is mentally enthralling and leaves me with a pleasant feeling. I don't get that from male social groups. I always feel unable to properly join with their socializing. The best I could ever do is try to copy the way they talk about things and try to blend in. Its always an uncomfortable effort of a sort. It reminds me of seeing groups at work meetings. When there is one or two women trying to join in a male dominated conversation the women tend to stand back after a bit and just back away. The things guys talk about don't appeal to most women's minds. I have always found myself in similar spots. Then there are those more basic instincts. For me they have always been disjointed. I feel wants like any normal woman but have the attraction to physical females. Its really hard to reconcile these instincts in a relationship. Its also why I was alone for nearly a decade avoiding relationships. I've discussed much of this with my therapist. She commented that many women would understand what I was saying about these wants.
There are some very distinct differences between how men and women normally think. These are not learned, they are simply based on how the thoughts get processed in those specific neural networks. The "average" male and female brain have many differently wired segments that are hormonally affected prenatally, that much is known fact. The more I look into myself and the more I observe about the genders, the more I see correlations based on brain structure to be evident and observable in the behavior of most cisgender people and most transgender people.
Then of course there are those caught more in the middle. Here's the interesting thing, I can accept the reality they experience but I can't really understand it as I am very binary. So as most cis people cant understand the transgender experience, I cannot truly understand the non-binary experience.
Quote from: dmj23 on January 20, 2018, 01:55:32 PM
no not true. I don't have ovotestes. And having xx/xy chimerism actually makes you intersex no matter what your hormone levels are. I was told this specifically by my doctor. And honestly I had my levels checked and they're from what the gynecologist said within range.
Doctors often tell you things are "in range", when actually they're well outside the normal range for someone of your age and sex. Most doctors are clueless when it comes to hormone replacement and obscure intersex conditions, but rather than admit this, they'll make stuff up to placate you and make you go away.
Although it certainly can be a cause of intersex, there are XX/XY chimeras who are not intersex. Here's a couple of examples:
"A healthy, female chimera with 46,XX/46,XY karyotype."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19344081
"46,XX/46,XY chimerism in a phenotypically normal man."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6575956
There are probably many other XX/XY chimeras who are completely phenotypically normal men or women, and live their entire lives none the wiser. People usually only get karyotyped if they're born with ambiguous genitalia, or as part of fertility testing. That's mainly going to pick up the ones who are intersex, so it leads to a false impression that being composed of a mixture of genetically male and female cells always leads to intersex. Quite often it doesn't. Intersex only occurs when both XX and XY cells have got into the germ cell line. If the germ cell line is entirely composed of just XX or just XY cells, you end up with ordinary ovaries or testicles, and you develop as a completely typical man or woman.
I used to think I must be a chimera myself, because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I found out more about how the process of sexual development takes place, I realised that something must have happened around week 16 of my prenatal development (which is when the process of building the permanent structure of the brain first gets underway), that massively disrupted my endocrine system so that, for a few weeks, I stopped producing any testosterone. Then my testosterone production recovered so that I had normal male levels of testosterone for the remainder of my prenatal development. It's given me a brain where a lot of the most primal, evolutionarily ancient stuff is female (hormone control, body language, instinctive social behaviour), whereas the more evolutionarily advanced stuff (e.g. language and conscious thought) is male.
Although I haven't been karyotyped, I can virtually guarantee it would come back ordinary XY.
I look physically feminized (I have a "eunuchoid" body structure, similar to what often happens with Klinefelter's syndrome), however I have secondary, not primary, hypogonadism, which rules out Klinefelter's. All the other conventional causes of intersex are quite rare, and they all tend to act throughout the pregnancy, whereas what seems to have happened to me is a period of massive hormone disruption in an otherwise normal pregnancy. When I found out that natal males whose mothers were given DES often had very similar social problems as teenagers to those I experienced, and often end up with hypogonadism and the eunuchoid body structure as well, it became obvious what had happened.
Quote
As far as cais women they aren't men. Clearly. Their genetic make up is female. Yeah I said it their genetic make up is female. Reason I said this and am saying it now is because women with cais have a genetic make up that makes them develop as female because of their genetic make up therefore their brains will function the same. Their y isn't a male y chromosome that's why it doesn't function like male y chromosomes do.
Believe it or not, the Y chromosome in people with CAIS is completely normal and fully functioning. Furthermore, it does what it does in the XY people who develop as male, which is to cause testicles to develop around 6 weeks after conception, and to start churning out testosterone. The sole difference between people with CAIS and the genetically male people who develop as male, is that CAIS women have a mutation to their gene for the androgen receptor, which prevents them from responding to testosterone and other androgenic hormones. As a result, all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. That one single difference results in a person who is, to all intents and purposes (aside from being infertile), a woman.
Yeah the way I think is indeed different from the way women think I was just saying in my experience to me there is no feminine or masculine things to me because it depends on the people. My dysphoria comes from my physique generally not on whether I wear pants or not because I feel like a person without a body generally it probably is true too. But yeah that's my experience as far as being intersex and transgender
Quote from: josie76 on January 21, 2018, 08:33:40 AM
djm23
I agree that social gender roles are socially created. However somewhere deep in our brains there are gender specific instincts wired in. I'm not sure even how to explain it but having lived a life experiencing the fact that my instincts, my wants, do not match my social role I was expected to be. When I speak of instinctual wants I do not mean anything logical. It is something deep in the operating system of my brain. It involves many aspects from what I can tell about myself. How I think in general is very different than men in any observed group I have known. The way guys interact with each other is always sort of foreign in a way however being involved in female social groups is mentally enthralling and leaves me with a pleasant feeling. I don't get that from male social groups. I always feel unable to properly join with their socializing. The best I could ever do is try to copy the way they talk about things and try to blend in. Its always an uncomfortable effort of a sort. It reminds me of seeing groups at work meetings. When there is one or two women trying to join in a male dominated conversation the women tend to stand back after a bit and just back away. The things guys talk about don't appeal to most women's minds. I have always found myself in similar spots. Then there are those more basic instincts. For me they have always been disjointed. I feel wants like any normal woman but have the attraction to physical females. Its really hard to reconcile these instincts in a relationship. Its also why I was alone for nearly a decade avoiding relationships. I've discussed much of this with my therapist. She commented that many women would understand what I was saying about these wants.
There are some very distinct differences between how men and women normally think. These are not learned, they are simply based on how the thoughts get processed in those specific neural networks. The "average" male and female brain have many differently wired segments that are hormonally affected prenatally, that much is known fact. The more I look into myself and the more I observe about the genders, the more I see correlations based on brain structure to be evident and observable in the behavior of most cisgender people and most transgender people.
Then of course there are those caught more in the middle. Here's the interesting thing, I can accept the reality they experience but I can't really understand it as I am very binary. So as most cis people cant understand the transgender experience, I cannot truly understand the non-binary experience.
I didn't say the y chromosome was not functional. I said in combination with their whole genotype they are female. Clearly it is their genes that make them female. My genotype does not make me female.
Yeah intersex does not mean you have to have some type of ambiguous genitalia it means you have some kind of ambiguity sexually in either chromosomes or elsewhere like xxy swyer syndrome. They are fully female but have xxy karyotypes. Same thing with me I am fully female have cycles etc but I have xy chromosomes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorders_of_sex_development
\
first one on conditions
Quote from: HughE on January 21, 2018, 12:57:05 PM
Doctors often tell you things are "in range", when actually they're well outside the normal range for someone of your age and sex. Most doctors are clueless when it comes to hormone replacement and obscure intersex conditions, but rather than admit this, they'll make stuff up to placate you and make you go away.
Although it certainly can be a cause of intersex, there are XX/XY chimeras who are not intersex. Here's a couple of examples:
"A healthy, female chimera with 46,XX/46,XY karyotype."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19344081
"46,XX/46,XY chimerism in a phenotypically normal man."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6575956
There are probably many other XX/XY chimeras who are completely phenotypically normal men or women, and live their entire lives none the wiser. People usually only get karyotyped if they're born with ambiguous genitalia, or as part of fertility testing. That's mainly going to pick up the ones who are intersex, so it leads to a false impression that being composed of a mixture of genetically male and female cells always leads to intersex. Quite often it doesn't. Intersex only occurs when both XX and XY cells have got into the germ cell line. If the germ cell line is entirely composed of just XX or just XY cells, you end up with ordinary ovaries or testicles, and you develop as a completely typical man or woman.
I used to think I must be a chimera myself, because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I found out more about how the process of sexual development takes place, I realised that something must have happened around week 16 of my prenatal development (which is when the process of building the permanent structure of the brain first gets underway), that massively disrupted my endocrine system so that, for a few weeks, I stopped producing any testosterone. Then my testosterone production recovered so that I had normal male levels of testosterone for the remainder of my prenatal development. It's given me a brain where a lot of the most primal, evolutionarily ancient stuff is female (hormone control, body language, instinctive social behaviour), whereas the more evolutionarily advanced stuff (e.g. language and conscious thought) is male.
Although I haven't been karyotyped, I can virtually guarantee it would come back ordinary XY.
I look physically feminized (I have a "eunuchoid" body structure, similar to what often happens with Klinefelter's syndrome), however I have secondary, not primary, hypogonadism, which rules out Klinefelter's. All the other conventional causes of intersex are quite rare, and they all tend to act throughout the pregnancy, whereas what seems to have happened to me is a period of massive hormone disruption in an otherwise normal pregnancy. When I found out that natal males whose mothers were given DES often had very similar social problems as teenagers to those I experienced, and often end up with hypogonadism and the eunuchoid body structure as well, it became obvious what had happened. Believe it or not, the Y chromosome in people with CAIS is completely normal and fully functioning. Furthermore, it does what it does in the XY people who develop as male, which is to cause testicles to develop around 6 weeks after conception, and to start churning out testosterone. The sole difference between people with CAIS and the genetically male people who develop as male, is that CAIS women have a mutation to their gene for the androgen receptor, which prevents them from responding to testosterone and other androgenic hormones. As a result, all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. That one single difference results in a person who is, to all intents and purposes (aside from being infertile), a woman.
Quote from: HughE on January 21, 2018, 12:57:05 PM
Doctors often tell you things are "in range", when actually they're well outside the normal range for someone of your age and sex. Most doctors are clueless when it comes to hormone replacement and obscure intersex conditions, but rather than admit this, they'll make stuff up to placate you and make you go away.
Although it certainly can be a cause of intersex, there are XX/XY chimeras who are not intersex. Here's a couple of examples:
"A healthy, female chimera with 46,XX/46,XY karyotype."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19344081
"46,XX/46,XY chimerism in a phenotypically normal man."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6575956
There are probably many other XX/XY chimeras who are completely phenotypically normal men or women, and live their entire lives none the wiser. People usually only get karyotyped if they're born with ambiguous genitalia, or as part of fertility testing. That's mainly going to pick up the ones who are intersex, so it leads to a false impression that being composed of a mixture of genetically male and female cells always leads to intersex. Quite often it doesn't. Intersex only occurs when both XX and XY cells have got into the germ cell line. If the germ cell line is entirely composed of just XX or just XY cells, you end up with ordinary ovaries or testicles, and you develop as a completely typical man or woman.
I used to think I must be a chimera myself, because my inner sense of being partly male and partly female is so strong. However, as I found out more about how the process of sexual development takes place, I realised that something must have happened around week 16 of my prenatal development (which is when the process of building the permanent structure of the brain first gets underway), that massively disrupted my endocrine system so that, for a few weeks, I stopped producing any testosterone. Then my testosterone production recovered so that I had normal male levels of testosterone for the remainder of my prenatal development. It's given me a brain where a lot of the most primal, evolutionarily ancient stuff is female (hormone control, body language, instinctive social behaviour), whereas the more evolutionarily advanced stuff (e.g. language and conscious thought) is male.
Although I haven't been karyotyped, I can virtually guarantee it would come back ordinary XY.
I look physically feminized (I have a "eunuchoid" body structure, similar to what often happens with Klinefelter's syndrome), however I have secondary, not primary, hypogonadism, which rules out Klinefelter's. All the other conventional causes of intersex are quite rare, and they all tend to act throughout the pregnancy, whereas what seems to have happened to me is a period of massive hormone disruption in an otherwise normal pregnancy. When I found out that natal males whose mothers were given DES often had very similar social problems as teenagers to those I experienced, and often end up with hypogonadism and the eunuchoid body structure as well, it became obvious what had happened. Believe it or not, the Y chromosome in people with CAIS is completely normal and fully functioning. Furthermore, it does what it does in the XY people who develop as male, which is to cause testicles to develop around 6 weeks after conception, and to start churning out testosterone. The sole difference between people with CAIS and the genetically male people who develop as male, is that CAIS women have a mutation to their gene for the androgen receptor, which prevents them from responding to testosterone and other androgenic hormones. As a result, all their development takes place as if those hormones weren't there. That one single difference results in a person who is, to all intents and purposes (aside from being infertile), a woman.
but yeah you need to look up what intersex means it doesn't just apply to ambiguous genitalia. Andas much as you don't want to believe it I am intersex because I have xy karyotype.
Quote from: dmj23 on January 21, 2018, 03:55:09 PM
but yeah you need to look up what intersex means it doesn't just apply to ambiguous genitalia. Andas much as you don't want to believe it I am intersex because I have xy karyotype.
I did the karyotype test (basic one) and came back XY. However I also had no internal male structures (as I've mentioned before). Pretty sure that makes me some funky brand of intersexed. What they initially diagnosed is probably accurate, but I'm not holding my breath till I see the geneticist in april.
The results from the lab suggested looking into AIS or Swyers as an explanation for my chromosomes. FYI there are also varying degrees of Swyers, not all are born 100% female outside either. "ambiguous genitals" applies to many conditions. .. even non ambiguous can still be intersexed and STILL be xy. For instance if you had a penis, scrotum, 2 testes.. but had no internal male parts you'd be intersexed. If you had labia, vaginal canal, but no uterus/fallopian tubes..walaa intersexed
Basically intersexed is having anything anatomically or chromosomal not 100% xy male xx female. That leaves a ton of wiggle room inbetween.
Quote from: Doreen on January 21, 2018, 05:37:17 PM
I did the karyotype test (basic one) and came back XY. However I also had no internal male structures (as I've mentioned before). Pretty sure that makes me some funky brand of intersexed. What they initially diagnosed is probably accurate, but I'm not holding my breath till I see the geneticist in april.
The results from the lab suggested looking into AIS or Swyers as an explanation for my chromosomes. FYI there are also varying degrees of Swyers, not all are born 100% female outside either. "ambiguous genitals" applies to many conditions. .. even non ambiguous can still be intersexed and STILL be xy. For instance if you had a penis, scrotum, 2 testes.. but had no internal male parts you'd be intersexed. If you had labia, vaginal canal, but no uterus/fallopian tubes..walaa intersexed
Basically intersexed is having anything anatomically or chromosomal not 100% xy male xx female. That leaves a ton of wiggle room inbetween.
Yeah I agree with you. Obviously you are intersex. But I am intersex as well because close to 10% of my genotype is xy. And I have xx chromosomes. xx/xy will always go under the umbrella of intersex because you're not completely one thing. I honestly think intersex people end up intersex much of the time due to their chromosomes and genetics. Like swyer syndrome usually something inactivate the sry proteins so they can't develop male completely. Same with androgen receptors and ais. But some intersex conditions are purely hormonal or due to lack of one or the other sex organ. So not always the case. In my situation the thing that makes me intersex is my genotypes.
Quote from: dmj23 on January 22, 2018, 12:58:03 PM
Yeah I agree with you. Obviously you are intersex. But I am intersex as well because close to 10% of my genotype is xy. And I have xx chromosomes. xx/xy will always go under the umbrella of intersex because you're not completely one thing. I honestly think intersex people end up intersex much of the time due to their chromosomes and genetics. Like swyer syndrome usually something inactivate the sry proteins so they can't develop male completely. Same with androgen receptors and ais. But some intersex conditions are purely hormonal or due to lack of one or the other sex organ. So not always the case. In my situation the thing that makes me intersex is my genotypes.
I agree with you.. though there is definitely something screwy going on with my genes.. but really I don't want to say anything for certain until I see the geneticist. I just know what the scans have said at this time really and that alone is what they've used to plop me with not 1, not 2, but 4 different Intersexed diagnosis lol. Obviously not all are right. One is though.
Quote from: Doreen on January 22, 2018, 10:28:57 PM
I agree with you.. though there is definitely something screwy going on with my genes.. but really I don't want to say anything for certain until I see the geneticist. I just know what the scans have said at this time really and that alone is what they've used to plop me with not 1, not 2, but 4 different Intersexed diagnosis lol. Obviously not all are right. One is though.
yeah when I got my referral for the geneticist she sent a diagnosis xy female. That's it. But when I talked to sanders he said it was likely a form of chimerism or mosaicism. I only had two but I am waiting on seeing a geneticist too. In fact I have to go tm
You know I won't get spiritual or anything pertaining to that here. I also won't use psychological studies either here.
All I have is just one question. Who are you? I can't answer that other than for myself nor any scientist either.
Who we are is deeper rooted than the body and science whether it is peer supported or not.
But only you know who you are and never be persuaded by society and that includes science, biology, neurology, psychiatry or psychology.
You don't need excuses or proof. The proof is within you. Society and medicine is not you. YOU are you and that is all you need to be the true you. Yes I am a DES baby but I am so much more than what my mom was given to not miscarriage me. Nature allowed me to live and Evolution is natural. How many DES babies were miscarried?
I don't need a reason. Hell the only reason I need is that I Am. I am who I am and that is all I am. I would love to have an excuse though to be such a bitch but that too is on me. >:-) :embarrassed:
We tend to see life as the human body but... what is life is beyond the human body? what if life were more about human consciousness outside the human body? Does anyone really think their ethereal body will walk the streets of heaven? You know the streets paved with Gold where gold is no more important as clay in bricks or tar and gravel?
Maybe being trans is a wake up call to start thinking bigger in the scheme of things. Yes it sux and I ama poster girl of that but.. Who the hell am I? I am nothing. I am no one. I am just me and that is all. I am just me. I could care less about changing society because indeed it is changing now and I can't even speed it along as a whole but just in my own little world and I am doing that as much as I can benevolently. yet I refuse to be a victim too so....
So am I intersexed? I really don't know the sex I like is different than my organs of copulation. Hell women have laughed at my penis size but men have actually like it because it proved more or less that I was not a "->-bleeped-<-" because it never got hard while turned on. I am not normal as a guy. but I am a "normal" ->-bleeped-<- though. And no I have never had HRT. ??? :embarrassed: :-\
I grew small boobs during puberty yet something else never grew while turned on. I tried but it never gave nothing other than an explosion in my mind and squirted clear. I have tried straight girls that I have lied to and though maybe something would happen but all they did was laugh and part of the reason why I had to go to a different school. It sux but one of the cards we have been dealt but don't throw those cards away just yet though.... When we meet guys or girls and upfront then they love us for us and then we can enjoy the relationship in whole. That relationship may or may not last and that is always true when you are young. It is true if you are older even.
So intersexed, DES, Psychological, or whatever else, I don't care. Science can break down love within neurology and psychology but I people feel live between one another that science can't explain there are just some things that science can't explain.
So we really need a scientific excuse? Yes there are some but how about just being an individual free to choose to be true to who you are that may defy science, biology, psychology and even nature itself in a physical sense?
LOL Lady GaGa made millions on the single Born This Way yet I will tell you all for free, you are who you are and the way I put it is timeless and even part of the human condition. Born means taking your first breath as a physical human. But there may be possibly so much more to that.
So make your own mind's up. Does consciousness survive outside the human body or does it develop within the human brain? Make up your own mind. As for me I really don't know and probably never will while breathing.
But any study, can you really legitimize the human condition? We are people and not labels or groups. some may be OK with it and some not but who cares. I don't need an excuse. All I need is a middle finger to stick up. ;D
Quote from: Jenntrans on January 30, 2018, 02:58:43 PM
You know I won't get spiritual or anything pertaining to that here. I also won't use psychological studies either here.
All I have is just one question. Who are you? I can't answer that other than for myself nor any scientist either.
Who we are is deeper rooted than the body and science whether it is peer supported or not.
But only you know who you are and never be persuaded by society and that includes science, biology, neurology, psychiatry or psychology.
You don't need excuses or proof. The proof is within you. Society and medicine is not you. YOU are you and that is all you need to be the true you. Yes I am a DES baby but I am so much more than what my mom was given to not miscarriage me. Nature allowed me to live and Evolution is natural. How many DES babies were miscarried?
I don't need a reason. Hell the only reason I need is that I Am. I am who I am and that is all I am. I would love to have an excuse though to be such a bitch but that too is on me. >:-) :embarrassed:
We tend to see life as the human body but... what is life is beyond the human body? what if life were more about human consciousness outside the human body? Does anyone really think their ethereal body will walk the streets of heaven? You know the streets paved with Gold where gold is no more important as clay in bricks or tar and gravel?
Maybe being trans is a wake up call to start thinking bigger in the scheme of things. Yes it sux and I ama poster girl of that but.. Who the hell am I? I am nothing. I am no one. I am just me and that is all. I am just me. I could care less about changing society because indeed it is changing now and I can't even speed it along as a whole but just in my own little world and I am doing that as much as I can benevolently. yet I refuse to be a victim too so....
So am I intersexed? I really don't know the sex I like is different than my organs of copulation. Hell women have laughed at my penis size but men have actually like it because it proved more or less that I was not a "->-bleeped-<-" because it never got hard while turned on. I am not normal as a guy. but I am a "normal" ->-bleeped-<- though. And no I have never had HRT. ??? :embarrassed: :-\
I grew small boobs during puberty yet something else never grew while turned on. I tried but it never gave nothing other than an explosion in my mind and squirted clear. I have tried straight girls that I have lied to and though maybe something would happen but all they did was laugh and part of the reason why I had to go to a different school. It sux but one of the cards we have been dealt but don't throw those cards away just yet though.... When we meet guys or girls and upfront then they love us for us and then we can enjoy the relationship in whole. That relationship may or may not last and that is always true when you are young. It is true if you are older even.
So intersexed, DES, Psychological, or whatever else, I don't care. Science can break down love within neurology and psychology but I people feel live between one another that science can't explain there are just some things that science can't explain.
So we really need a scientific excuse? Yes there are some but how about just being an individual free to choose to be true to who you are that may defy science, biology, psychology and even nature itself in a physical sense?
LOL Lady GaGa made millions on the single Born This Way yet I will tell you all for free, you are who you are and the way I put it is timeless and even part of the human condition. Born means taking your first breath as a physical human. But there may be possibly so much more to that.
So make your own mind's up. Does consciousness survive outside the human body or does it develop within the human brain? Make up your own mind. As for me I really don't know and probably never will while breathing.
But any study, can you really legitimize the human condition? We are people and not labels or groups. some may be OK with it and some not but who cares. I don't need an excuse. All I need is a middle finger to stick up. ;D
Well I have a few very specific reasons for wanting to know.. in particular an organ males do not possessed identified on an ultrasound, and constant aches in that area.
Other than that, of course, I think you are ultimately how you identify, for better or worse. Mine has more to do with specific medical ailments than matters of theology or philosophy. However, thats fun to get into to at times :) Even if they found out I was completely trans (though I still am not buying it, too many medical mysteries and mishaps in development)... I'd accept it and live life.
I don't need a reason but the thing is I have gone to transgender support groups and I never fit well with that. Theonly thing I fit with trans as a kid for example is thinking at a later age I should probably have male parts and I always prefered playing with my male peers more even when I tried with girls they didn't really like it. For me it has always been self awareness and I never knew what that was for a long time
Symptoms of GD in children may include any of the following: disgust at their own genitalia, social isolation from their peers, anxiety, loneliness and depression.
Adults with GD are at increased risk for stress, isolation, anxiety, depression, poor self-esteem and suicide
Gender dysphoria behaviours in children can include:
•insisting they're of the opposite sex
•disliking or refusing to wear clothes that are typically worn by their sex and wanting to wear clothes typically worn by the opposite sex
•disliking or refusing to take part in activities and games that are typically associated with their sex, and wanting to take part in activities and games typically associated with the opposite sex
•preferring to play with children of the opposite biological sex
•disliking or refusing to pass urine as other members of their biological sex usually do – for example, a boy may want to sit down to pass urine and a girl may want to stand up
•insisting or hoping their genitals will change – for example, a boy may say he wants to be rid of his penis, and a girl may want to grow a penis
•feeling extreme distress at the physical changes of puberty
Children with gender dysphoria may display some, or all, of these behaviours. However, in many cases, behaviours such as these are just a part of childhood and don't necessarily mean your child has gender dysphoria.
For example, many girls behave in a way that can be described as "tomboyish", which is often seen as part of normal female development. It's also not uncommon for boys to roleplay as girls and to dress up in their mother's or sister's clothes. This is usually just a phase.
Most children who behave in these ways don't have gender dysphoria and don't become transsexuals. Only in rare cases does the behaviour persist into the teenage years and adulthood.
thout doubt that your gender identity is at odds with your biological sex
•comfortable only when in the gender role of your preferred gender identity
•a strong desire to hide or be rid of the physical signs of your sex, such as breasts, body hair or muscle definition
•a strong dislike for – and a strong desire to change or be rid of – the genitalia of your biological sex
the symptoms for me are not like this completely I don't want to kill myself because I live as a female. But I've always had a nagging sense that I am not really in the right sex basically. And most of my issues are not roles but my body clothing are just styles to me
Quote from: Jenntrans on January 30, 2018, 02:58:43 PM
You know I won't get spiritual or anything pertaining to that here. I also won't use psychological studies either here.
All I have is just one question. Who are you? I can't answer that other than for myself nor any scientist either.
Who we are is deeper rooted than the body and science whether it is peer supported or not.
But only you know who you are and never be persuaded by society and that includes science, biology, neurology, psychiatry or psychology.
You don't need excuses or proof. The proof is within you. Society and medicine is not you. YOU are you and that is all you need to be the true you. Yes I am a DES baby but I am so much more than what my mom was given to not miscarriage me. Nature allowed me to live and Evolution is natural. How many DES babies were miscarried?
I don't need a reason. Hell the only reason I need is that I Am. I am who I am and that is all I am. I would love to have an excuse though to be such a bitch but that too is on me. >:-) :embarrassed:
We tend to see life as the human body but... what is life is beyond the human body? what if life were more about human consciousness outside the human body? Does anyone really think their ethereal body will walk the streets of heaven? You know the streets paved with Gold where gold is no more important as clay in bricks or tar and gravel?
Maybe being trans is a wake up call to start thinking bigger in the scheme of things. Yes it sux and I ama poster girl of that but.. Who the hell am I? I am nothing. I am no one. I am just me and that is all. I am just me. I could care less about changing society because indeed it is changing now and I can't even speed it along as a whole but just in my own little world and I am doing that as much as I can benevolently. yet I refuse to be a victim too so....
So am I intersexed? I really don't know the sex I like is different than my organs of copulation. Hell women have laughed at my penis size but men have actually like it because it proved more or less that I was not a "->-bleeped-<-" because it never got hard while turned on. I am not normal as a guy. but I am a "normal" ->-bleeped-<- though. And no I have never had HRT. ??? :embarrassed: :-\
I grew small boobs during puberty yet something else never grew while turned on. I tried but it never gave nothing other than an explosion in my mind and squirted clear. I have tried straight girls that I have lied to and though maybe something would happen but all they did was laugh and part of the reason why I had to go to a different school. It sux but one of the cards we have been dealt but don't throw those cards away just yet though.... When we meet guys or girls and upfront then they love us for us and then we can enjoy the relationship in whole. That relationship may or may not last and that is always true when you are young. It is true if you are older even.
So intersexed, DES, Psychological, or whatever else, I don't care. Science can break down love within neurology and psychology but I people feel live between one another that science can't explain there are just some things that science can't explain.
So we really need a scientific excuse? Yes there are some but how about just being an individual free to choose to be true to who you are that may defy science, biology, psychology and even nature itself in a physical sense?
LOL Lady GaGa made millions on the single Born This Way yet I will tell you all for free, you are who you are and the way I put it is timeless and even part of the human condition. Born means taking your first breath as a physical human. But there may be possibly so much more to that.
So make your own mind's up. Does consciousness survive outside the human body or does it develop within the human brain? Make up your own mind. As for me I really don't know and probably never will while breathing.
But any study, can you really legitimize the human condition? We are people and not labels or groups. some may be OK with it and some not but who cares. I don't need an excuse. All I need is a middle finger to stick up. ;D
Quote from: Doreen on January 30, 2018, 11:21:01 PM
Well I have a few very specific reasons for wanting to know.. in particular an organ males do not possessed identified on an ultrasound, and constant aches in that area.
Other than that, of course, I think you are ultimately how you identify, for better or worse. Mine has more to do with specific medical ailments than matters of theology or philosophy. However, thats fun to get into to at times :) Even if they found out I was completely trans (though I still am not buying it, too many medical mysteries and mishaps in development)... I'd accept it and live life.
In particular if you have constant ache and an abnormality where there should not be one then you need to talk with a doctor.
Hun. Most trans women do not ache in certain areas constantly. If you are hurting then go see a doctor. Even constant aches in a specific area may be of health concerns. Look I grew small boobs during puberty and something else never grew. Hell I can be hotter than hell and it never gets "stiff". It has been the same way throughout my sexual life. Gay guys I have been with asked me if I was not turned on and women that I have been with asked me the same thing. They seemed to feel offended even though I am so turned on and hot and ready. My "junk" don't work. When I orgasm it only come out clear. I have seen multiple doctors about it and got told sometimes it is natural. Yeah it may be on HRT but I am not on HRT. I got told that it just sometimes happens and then went to an endo.
But I have been through all the test and the scans up to MRIs and so on. No anomalies and just trans and different. There is nothing there that should not be there and I am somewhat healthy but just get turned on differently and it don't show. If I do get a "stiffy" it lasts for a few seconds and less than a minute but I am still turned on and hot for whoever. I am a trans woman so if someone wanted a gay man then I am not their match. If a woman wanted a man that is feminine then I ain't the match either. Oh I do orgasm but not like everyone else. It just leaks a little and feels so good and feels like an orgasm but just more comes out and don't shoot and it is all clear.
So with that last part said, I have never done HRT so what is wrong with me? I have seen different doctors and I am all normal so what is wrong with me? A lot of guys turn me on and some girls but nothing gets hard. I just get hot. And yes I masturbate like everyone else but it never gets hard and what comes out is just clear. It feels good though but not normal. It is so hard to tell a total stranger that you masturbate.
But any abnormalities or anomalies in an ultra sound needs to be looked into further.
As long as you are OK we can get into all kinds of debates, arguments, trouble or whatever else. But always get a second opinion. An ultra sound will not show what an MRI will.
I choose to embrace my intersex identity, because it's the only label that fit me over the course of my life. To me intersex is a congenital condition that exists from birth on. I didn't need to know I was intersex. I just was.
I prefer not to identify as transgender. It's a broadly defined term to describe anyone whose gender behavior or appearance doesn't conform to the social conventions associated with a person's sex for whatever reason. It doesn't distinguish my circumstances from others who identify as transgender. For me, the issue wasn't gender identity as much as it was sexual identity (not sexual attraction). My sexual identity is a mixture of both male and female physical characteristics -- that is, intersex.
In my view sexual identity is multi-dimensional. It has six key attributes:
1) Genetic sex (XX or XY chromosomes)
2) Gonadal sex (ovaries or testes)
3) Genital sex (vagina or penis)
4) Somatic sex (feminine or masculine features)
5) Hormonal sex (testosterone/estrogen ratio)
6) Brain sex (masculinized or unmasculinized)
If one or more of these attributes are misaligned, you're intersex. Traditionally, only the first five attributes were considered in diagnosing an intersex condition. The inability to easily diagnose misaligned brain sex is what excludes it from consideration in diagnosing an intersex condition. I think that's a mistake.
There is a reliable diagnostic test for the presence of an intersex brain: cross-sex hormones. Testosterone was toxic to my female brain. Correcting my sex hormone concentrations had an immediate ameliorative effect on reducing my gender dysphoria, a clear indication that my brain was never completely masculinized. HRT was followed by surgical alternation of my body to correct my somatic, gonadal, and genital sex characteristics to physically complete my sexual identity to be as female as possible.
At this point my gender dysphoria is gone. I identify as a woman. Still, biologically I'm intersex. Physically I will always be part male and part female, even if what's left of my maleness is invisible. My chromosomes are still XY, and I'll always have a prostate gland. But these remnants of masculinity are insignificant compared to the female attributes that now define me. Medically I'm intersex; I always was, and always will be, but socially and legally I am female. I've done as much as I can to correct nature's mistake.
Quote from: Dayta on August 30, 2017, 09:33:24 PM
A good rule of thumb regarding labels is that they are best used as "descriptive," rather than "prescriptive," That is, one ought not determine "oh, I am transgender, and therefore I ought to do..." Rather, find a label that seems to describe you as you are, and to find others identifying similarly.
Erin
Yeah, I am a trans woman definitely. Like, it would be incorrect to say that that is not the basis of why i want to transition and my motivation for changing my presentation. At the same time, i have never had dysphoria with my male self. I did have a bit of a disconnect with my sexuality in that it was never as fulfilling as my female sexuality is. But there are bits of me like my beard that I don't hate.
As i get more comfortable being a woman, my masculine side will fade into the background i think. I feel like a gradient. Starting a boy and slowly coming to terms with the woman I am now. I feel the best way to describe this is bigender. The psychological definition of trans was something like an umbrella term for people "having experiences outside of ones assigned gender," or the like. So I know I fall into that.
I think the need to rigidly define a transperson was what kept me from realizing that I am trans for a long time. Thats why it felt like coming home, because it was something I wanted for awhile but didnt have the words to understand. I think it's an inherent thing to being trans, since our experiences are so varied and diverse. Science will always grapple with defining what it essentially an question of the spirit.
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Quote from: Jenntrans on March 12, 2018, 04:01:26 PM
In particular if you have constant ache and an abnormality where there should not be one then you need to talk with a doctor.
Hun. Most trans women do not ache in certain areas constantly. If you are hurting then go see a doctor. Even constant aches in a specific area may be of health concerns. Look I grew small boobs during puberty and something else never grew. Hell I can be hotter than hell and it never gets "stiff". It has been the same way throughout my sexual life. Gay guys I have been with asked me if I was not turned on and women that I have been with asked me the same thing. They seemed to feel offended even though I am so turned on and hot and ready. My "junk" don't work. When I orgasm it only come out clear. I have seen multiple doctors about it and got told sometimes it is natural. Yeah it may be on HRT but I am not on HRT. I got told that it just sometimes happens and then went to an endo.
But I have been through all the test and the scans up to MRIs and so on. No anomalies and just trans and different. There is nothing there that should not be there and I am somewhat healthy but just get turned on differently and it don't show. If I do get a "stiffy" it lasts for a few seconds and less than a minute but I am still turned on and hot for whoever. I am a trans woman so if someone wanted a gay man then I am not their match. If a woman wanted a man that is feminine then I ain't the match either. Oh I do orgasm but not like everyone else. It just leaks a little and feels so good and feels like an orgasm but just more comes out and don't shoot and it is all clear.
So with that last part said, I have never done HRT so what is wrong with me? I have seen different doctors and I am all normal so what is wrong with me? A lot of guys turn me on and some girls but nothing gets hard. I just get hot. And yes I masturbate like everyone else but it never gets hard and what comes out is just clear. It feels good though but not normal. It is so hard to tell a total stranger that you masturbate.
But any abnormalities or anomalies in an ultra sound needs to be looked into further.
As long as you are OK we can get into all kinds of debates, arguments, trouble or whatever else. But always get a second opinion. An ultra sound will not show what an MRI will.
Oh I've spoken to doctors a plenty. ANd I finally just noticed your response lol. The ultrasound, MRI, Pelvic Laparoscopy, Abdominal CT scan, blood work... and now an exhaustive karotype search by a geneticist. Ya they all know something is unusual.. and noone can agree what it is apparently.
The geneticist seems pretty convinced I have xx / xy mosaichism... he might have something to it as my blood type has changed throughout the years. We'll see in about 2-3 months.
But yes, to answer your response... if you have pains of unknown origins see a doc... you are 100% correct.
Quote from: Clara Kay on April 28, 2018, 11:09:23 PM
I choose to embrace my intersex identity, because it's the only label that fit me over the course of my life. To me intersex is a congenital condition that exists from birth on. I didn't need to know I was intersex. I just was.
I prefer not to identify as transgender. It's a broadly defined term to describe anyone whose gender behavior or appearance doesn't conform to the social conventions associated with a person's sex for whatever reason. It doesn't distinguish my circumstances from others who identify as transgender. For me, the issue wasn't gender identity as much as it was sexual identity (not sexual attraction). My sexual identity is a mixture of both male and female physical characteristics -- that is, intersex.
In my view sexual identity is multi-dimensional. It has six key attributes:
1) Genetic sex (XX or XY chromosomes)
2) Gonadal sex (ovaries or testes)
3) Genital sex (vagina or penis)
4) Somatic sex (feminine or masculine features)
5) Hormonal sex (testosterone/estrogen ratio)
6) Brain sex (masculinized or unmasculinized)
If one or more of these attributes are misaligned, you're intersex. Traditionally, only the first five attributes were considered in diagnosing an intersex condition. The inability to easily diagnose misaligned brain sex is what excludes it from consideration in diagnosing an intersex condition. I think that's a mistake.
There is a reliable diagnostic test for the presence of an intersex brain: cross-sex hormones. Testosterone was toxic to my female brain. Correcting my sex hormone concentrations had an immediate ameliorative effect on reducing my gender dysphoria, a clear indication that my brain was never completely masculinized. HRT was followed by surgical alternation of my body to correct my somatic, gonadal, and genital sex characteristics to physically complete my sexual identity to be as female as possible.
At this point my gender dysphoria is gone. I identify as a woman. Still, biologically I'm intersex. Physically I will always be part male and part female, even if what's left of my maleness is invisible. My chromosomes are still XY, and I'll always have a prostate gland. But these remnants of masculinity are insignificant compared to the female attributes that now define me. Medically I'm intersex; I always was, and always will be, but socially and legally I am female. I've done as much as I can to correct nature's mistake.
Thank you for your response in this too... I agree that intersexed isn't always (same with trans) readily identified well. The thing you say about the prostate really strikes a core. Multiple examinations stated no prostate... except the MRI in which case it was in the wrong part of the body, too large, BPH -, and a pediatric radiologist is who thought I had one... nevermind the fact no urethra passed through it. GAH! Didn't these people take basic anatomy & physiology? IT was grilled into us in nursing class. The pelvic laparoscopy would have been the most accurate assessment except the ob/gyn doing it saw nothing..nothing at all. They have a word for that.. wolffian/mullerian agenesis. Except I have both kidneys. Its all so frustrating.
Anyways.. fun times.
This recent study adds credence to the notion that transsexuality is a type of intersex (between the sexes) condition. It is possible using brain imaging methods to diagnose the sexual misalignment of body and brain as the underlying cause of gender dysphoria as experienced by transsexual people.
https://www.inverse.com/article/45115-transgender-youth-brain-activity (https://www.inverse.com/article/45115-transgender-youth-brain-activity)