If you had a choice between being born trans with no possible way to do anything about it - no possible way to get HRT, have surgery, or pass. And do-it-yourself-surgery were physically impossible (it is for ftms).
OR
Being born a normal cisgendered member of your birth sex...
Which would you choose?
Cisgender obviously! I cant imagine anyone picking the first alternative, more so if there's no possible way to fix the mistake.
Quote from: Nero on December 04, 2007, 03:56:50 PM
If you had a choice between being born trans with no possible way to do anything about it - no possible way to get HRT, have surgery, or pass. And do-it-yourself-surgery were physically impossible (it is for ftms).
OR
Being born a normal cisgendered member of your birth sex...
Which would you choose?
Hmmm.. both options give me the creeps! I am not a man, so I can't even conceive being a cisgender male. That option is out of the question and is making me sick to my stomach!
Now, being TS with no possibility to transition in any form is even scarier and makes
me feel rather nauseated as well.
So my answer: I would rather stay in the "beyond" where all the souls are before they are born. Honestly, I would prefer not to be born then!
tink :icon_chick:
I suspect that what I would do is what so many of my fore-mothers did before this age of technology: live as a woman anyhow.
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 04, 2007, 09:33:25 PM
I suspect that what I would do is what so many of my fore-mothers did before this age of technology: live as a woman anyhow.
Exactly. Many of us transition fully expecting we'll never pass as it is anyway. Yet we do it. We do what we can, what we have to do.
I'd explore every option, try every possibility, knock down every barrier, go around every obstacle... anything I possibly could do to be
True.
For me, peace wasn't found by
Getting There. I found peace by TRYING. By knowing that I'm doing everything I can to make this happen, and that in the end, I didn't let my fears defeat me. Whether I "make it" or not, I'll die now someday without regrets, knowing that I've lived my truth to the best of my ability.
~Kate~
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 04, 2007, 09:33:25 PM
I suspect that what I would do is what so many of my fore-mothers did before this age of technology: live as a woman anyhow.
Quote from: Kate on December 04, 2007, 10:21:20 PM
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 04, 2007, 09:33:25 PM
I suspect that what I would do is what so many of my fore-mothers did before this age of technology: live as a woman anyhow.
Exactly. Many of us transition fully expecting we'll never pass as it is anyway. Yet we do it. We do what we can, what we have to do.
I'd explore every option, try every possibility, knock down every barrier, go around every obstacle... anything I possibly could do to be True.
For me, peace wasn't found by Getting There. I found peace by TRYING. By knowing that I'm doing everything I can to make this happen, and that in the end, I didn't let my fears defeat me. Whether I "make it" or not, I'll die now someday without regrets, knowing that I've lived my truth to the best of my ability.
~Kate~
But how?
How could you live as a woman anyhow? I dress a man, walk like a man, am a man, and yet... No one else sees it. The only people who don't 'ma'am' me are those who know my situation. I suppose I could go for a legal name change, but what would be the point? The world doesn't see a man. The world sees a butch woman.
So how can one live as their true gender anyhow?
yep. If I'm lucky to look like a dude w/o T. maybe. but dressin like a dude aint enough. I wanna see my facial hair. wanna see my flat chest. dont wanna see any breasts there. I wanna see a d#ck or somethin' that looks like it. I dont wanna hide in my own body or in my clothes. I wanna be a regular dude. take my shirt off whenever I want. kiss my girl w/o strange looks from other ppl. If I dont look like a dude to other ppl. nobody will see me as a dude. so I cant call it "transition". dunno. everybody's different. but it wont work for me. can't answer ur question bro. :(
Quote from: Chris on December 04, 2007, 11:44:37 PM
yep. If I'm lucky to look like a dude w/o T. maybe. but dressin like a dude aint enough. I wanna see my facial hair. wanna see my flat chest. dont wanna see any breasts there. I wanna see a d#ck or somethin' that looks like it. I dont wanna hide in my own body or in my clothes. I wanna be a regular dude. take my shirt off whenever I want. kiss my girl w/o strange looks from other ppl. If I dont look like a dude to other ppl. nobody will see me as a dude. so I cant call it "transition". dunno. everybody's different. but it wont work for me. can't answer ur question bro. :(
Yeah. That's why I don't see how anyone could still live as themselves without at least passing. Sure, you can live as yourself, just be yourself, but if you're not yourself to the rest the world...
I couldn't imagine being a woman... its so foreign to me. I would rather be me, even if I could never pass. I lived with that for 25 years. I'd rather be trans than "normal".
Wish I had the link, Nero. Saw an article a few years ago that recounted the arrest of a 'man' in England in the 15th or 16th century. London. he was arrested for being the wife of another man and in all respects 'looked' as if he were a woman. Married or a few years, in fact. It has been done.
What about the 'woman' during the USA Civil War who took her brother's place and served in the southern army for a couple of years and appeared to be a male?
Sometimes, sweetie, ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.
Quote from: Nichole W. on December 05, 2007, 12:37:25 AM
Wish I had the link, Nero. Saw an article a few years ago that recounted the arrest of a 'man' in England in the 15th or 16th century. London. he was arrested for being the wife of another man and in all respects 'looked' as if he were a woman. Married or a few years, in fact. It has been done.
What about the 'woman' during the USA Civil War who took her brother's place and served in the southern army for a couple of years and appeared to be a male?
Sometimes, sweetie, ya just gotta do what ya gotta do.
Yeah, but they apparently passed well enough as their respective genders...
Quote from: Nero on December 05, 2007, 12:30:54 AM
Quote from: Chris on December 04, 2007, 11:44:37 PM
yep. If I'm lucky to look like a dude w/o T. maybe. but dressin like a dude aint enough. I wanna see my facial hair. wanna see my flat chest. dont wanna see any breasts there. I wanna see a d#ck or somethin' that looks like it. I dont wanna hide in my own body or in my clothes. I wanna be a regular dude. take my shirt off whenever I want. kiss my girl w/o strange looks from other ppl. If I dont look like a dude to other ppl. nobody will see me as a dude. so I cant call it "transition". dunno. everybody's different. but it wont work for me. can't answer ur question bro. :(
Yeah. That's why I don't see how anyone could still live as themselves without at least passing. Sure, you can live as yourself, just be yourself, but if you're not yourself to the rest the world...
That's exactly it, Nero. I know the situation you're in and I know comfort would be best to give, but if the outside world doesn't see you as who you are, the pain continues. I wish I could say it in a way that didn't feel so bad.
Dennis
Quote from: Dennis on December 05, 2007, 01:25:20 AM
Yeah. That's why I don't see how anyone could still live as themselves without at least passing. Sure, you can live as yourself, just be yourself, but if you're not yourself to the rest the world...
I agree, it is a package deal. If people don't see me as a female, then I'm just "shouting into the wind." BUT...
Consider that I don't pass with 99% of the people I encounter during a typical day, since all of my friends, family, neighbors and most of my coworkers know of my past. And yet, I'm still treated as Kate, and allowed most of the privileges that come with being a woman.
Also, many people go through a phase early-on in transition when they're presenting as their target sex, yet being read constantly. And many of them will tell you that people often go by your Truth, rather than your Fact; that is, they'll treat you as the sex you're projecting, ignoring the biology underneath, simply because it's the
Right Thing To Do.
I still can't explain why I was never questioned, never sirred, never stared at when I started all this. Now maybe I got lucky and actually passed back then, I don't know. But I also think people don't pay much attention, and make very quick snap decisions about which sex to treat you as. They don't want to be bothered with figuring out how to treat you, so as long as you make it obvious for them, they go along with it.
Unfortunately though, that's probably easier for M2Fs since women can use so many "accessories" to project themselves, including hair, feminine clothing, jewelry, makeup, etc. Anyone showing up in a skirt, breasts and makeup is obviously at least *trying* to get the point across that they're a woman, even if they're obviously male. But I'm not sure what F2Ms can do to show that they're men...
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on December 05, 2007, 08:32:54 AM
Unfortunately though, that's probably easier for M2Fs since women can use so many "accessories" to project themselves, including hair, feminine clothing, jewelry, makeup, etc. Anyone showing up in a skirt, breasts and makeup is obviously at least *trying* to get the point across that they're a woman, even if they're obviously male. But I'm not sure what F2Ms can do to show that they're men...
~Kate~
Yeah, you're probably right. Everything you could do about presentation as a man (hair, clothes, etc) is done by tons of cisgendered women. And with the large gay and lesbian community where I live, you just look like a butch woman doing all these things. Not to mention that I have that stereotypical 'bull dyke' look - big, stocky, short hair, butchy looking.
So maybe it is possible for transwomen to live as themselves without passing.
If I had a choice in it, I would not have been born.
Sarah L.
Quote from: Nero on December 05, 2007, 12:30:54 AM
Yeah. That's why I don't see how anyone could still live as themselves without at least passing. Sure, you can live as yourself, just be yourself, but if you're not yourself to the rest the world...
Right, it's a never ending state of limbo. :( I've lived exactly this way since 1994, and sometimes it just sucks and I think it'd be easier to just transition again. The people I care about know who I am, but otherwise I'm invisible to the world.
Quote from: Nero on December 05, 2007, 11:06:55 AM
Yeah, you're probably right. Everything you could do about presentation as a man (hair, clothes, etc) is done by tons of cisgendered women. And with the large gay and lesbian community where I live, you just look like a butch woman doing all these things. Not to mention that I have that stereotypical 'bull dyke' look - big, stocky, short hair, butchy looking.
So maybe it is possible for transwomen to live as themselves without passing.
I'm trying to figure out if it's possible to do the same as non-op, non-passing m2f-androgyne without ending up broke or a statistic.
Regarding choice, I'd still choose what I am vs being cisgendered... been there, done that, sort of anyway ::)
y2g
Quote from: Nero on December 04, 2007, 03:56:50 PM
Being born a normal cisgendered member of your birth sex...
I guess I don't understand why anyone would choose this. I'd love to be happy in my birth sex. But I'm not, and never will be. But I guess it's just academic, because I don't think people have a choice.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on December 05, 2007, 05:25:00 PM
I guess I don't understand why anyone would choose this. I'd love to be happy in my birth sex. But I'm not, and never will be. But I guess it's just academic, because I don't think people have a choice.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I dunno, Kristi. Judging by your avatar I would say you look pretty comfy in your 'birth sex.' :icon_pelvic_thrust2: :eusa_clap:
Quote from: Nero on December 04, 2007, 03:56:50 PM
If you had a choice between being born trans with no possible way to do anything about it - no possible way to get HRT, have surgery, or pass. And do-it-yourself-surgery were physically impossible (it is for ftms).
OR
Being born a normal cisgendered member of your birth sex...
Which would you choose?
This is a choice that I would dread having to make. I managed to survive in my birth gender, male, and I played the role assigned to me by what the world saw, yet I was never fulfilled. Now that I am living in my true gender I know fulfillment.
What would my life be if I was born male and had no higher calling to my true gender, female? I suspect that it would be rather two-dimensional, lacking depth.
Knowing what I do and having seen and lived as I have, the only way that I could be born a normal cisgendered (what the hell does "cisgendered" mean, please?) member of my birth sex and tolerate it would be if I was totally ignorant of the blessing and curse of being transsexual.
Otherwise I would also prefer to remain wherever souls stay before they enter this world.
Wing Walker
The polls in some of these forums can get downright bizarre. i.e. would you rather live your life as a coffee cup or as a vacuum cleaner, but you couldn't pick what color you would be or which outlet you would be plugged into.
I suppose in the case of my example, I would choose coffee cup. Just because I like drinking coffee and I hate cleaning.
Quote from: Suzie on December 07, 2007, 03:08:13 PM
The polls in some of these forums can get downright bizarre. i.e. would you rather live your life as a coffee cup or as a vacuum cleaner, but you couldn't pick what color you would be or which outlet you would be plugged into.
I suppose in the case of my example, I would choose coffee cup. Just because I like drinking coffee and I hate cleaning.
I'd also choose being a coffee cup. Being a vacuum cleaner would really suck, literally ;D >:D
ba-dump
y2g
Quote from: Nero on December 04, 2007, 11:29:19 PM
But how?
How could you live as a woman anyhow? I dress a man, walk like a man, am a man, and yet... No one else sees it. The only people who don't 'ma'am' me are those who know my situation. I suppose I could go for a legal name change, but what would be the point? The world doesn't see a man. The world sees a butch woman.
So how can one live as their true gender anyhow?
I suspect it was easier in the past. We have become such a minimalist society that it's hard to hide our biology. In past ages, people wore massively elaborate costumes that could overpower other gender cues. When all you have are jeans and a t-shirt, it doesn't leave much to the imagination.
Quote from: y2gender on December 07, 2007, 03:22:11 PM
Quote from: Suzie on December 07, 2007, 03:08:13 PM
The polls in some of these forums can get downright bizarre. i.e. would you rather live your life as a coffee cup or as a vacuum cleaner, but you couldn't pick what color you would be or which outlet you would be plugged into.
I suppose in the case of my example, I would choose coffee cup. Just because I like drinking coffee and I hate cleaning.
I'd also choose being a coffee cup. Being a vacuum cleaner would really suck, literally ;D >:D
ba-dump
y2g
Oh, I'd be a vacuum cleaner. I swallow, too.
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 07, 2007, 03:32:03 PM
I suspect it was easier in the past. We have become such a minimalist society that it's hard to hide our biology. In past ages, people wore massively elaborate costumes that could overpower other gender cues. When all you have are jeans and a t-shirt, it doesn't leave much to the imagination.
Well, like the Madonna song says...
Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots...Females have much more freedom of expression. Normally that's a good thing, but in this case it makes it so much harder to "make a statement." I mean geezus, a female throws on a male dress shirt and she's sexy... but a male throws on a dress and he's a (supposed) pervert.
~Kate~
You're right, Kate. It's so damned frustrating.
Quote from: Lisbeth on December 07, 2007, 03:32:03 PM
Oh, I'd be a vacuum cleaner. I swallow, too.
*wiping screwdriver off monitor* hah! I LOVE IT!!!!!! I swallow, too!