When I was onthe gay cruise a week ago, I realized for real how butches look like. Have never seen so many gay people at the same place.
But something bothers me. It shouldn't but it does. The butches dress like men. Most of them are easily spotted as women. But not all. That made me see myself in new eyes. What if people see a butch instead of me.
I dress like a man. Every day. Not sure how people cathegorize me. Somehow I became very self consious. I'm not a butch. I'm a guy.
I pass 50% of the time but my voice and huge chest gives me away. Thank you winter!!
I don't want people to put me in the girl-gay-box.
Quote from: MeTonie on September 12, 2017, 09:42:03 PM
When I was onthe gay cruise a week ago, I realized for real how butches look like. Have never seen so many gay people at the same place.
But something bothers me. It shouldn't but it does. The butches dress like men. Most of them are easily spotted as women. But not all. That made me see myself in new eyes. What if people see a butch instead of me.
I dress like a man. Every day. Not sure how people cathegorize me. Somehow I became very self consious. I'm not a butch. I'm a guy.
I pass 50% of the time but my voice and huge chest gives me away. Thank you winter!!
I don't want people to put me in the girl-gay-box.
Sometimes I wonder if some lesbians are really trans.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Unfortunately, I'd imagine many of us get pegged as butch lesbians pre-T/top. I'm certain I did.
It's just one of those (lame) things, man.
Then it is a perfect time to come out when people put me in the wrong box. I'll try to do it that way instead.
It is cool though to be hit on by both girls and gay guys. But I'm unsure why they hit on me, if they see me or a butch. Never mind. I'll just enjoy the moment.
Unfortunately some people, even LGBT people themselves, associate a certain style with being gay or lesbian. There's nothing wrong with a girl dressing in male clothes or vice versa but it certainly doesn't help with how uninformed straight or cis people perceive us transgendered people. I think that's why so many think being transgender means we're just confused or that is just a lifestyle that we can choose the same way we can choose our style of clothing or hair. It's probably also why you hear stupid questions like "so which one of you is the man in the relationship?" Sometimes the people who get mad at those kind of comments are the ones perpetuating the stereotype themselves. It sucks but what can you do. I wouldn't be surprised either if most butch lesbians were actually trans or at least fell somewhere on that side of the spectrum.
It could actually be like that. I came out as gay when I was 12. Told the most beautiful girl (my friend) in school that she was the most beautiful girl in school. Unfortunately that was the end of our friendship. She got scared and backed off.
After that I was the gay. Lived with a controlling girl for 3 years. She controlled every step I took. We fought some. Mom said it was like we were married and laughed.
She was controlling, jelaus and always had to have the last word. I ran away from there. Never broke up. I just fled.
Quote from: Gertrude on September 12, 2017, 11:06:34 PM
Sometimes I wonder if some lesbians are really trans.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I ask myself the same. Since women who dress like men are completely accepted, I wonder if sometimes it's just easier for some of them who might be trans to stay there.
Well... if you're in a place where people blur the lines of gender expression there's always that increased possibility they will.
But what if they do? In that case just set the record straight.
Only thing I have to add is I think we should take care to leave space for legit lesbians that are masculine and have a butch appearance. A butch woman is an actual thing. Most of them have no desire to be a man. When we as trans men have this conversation it becomes dismissive to cis folks that blur the gender line. I happen to be a binary trans man but I respect those that turn traditional notions of gender expression on its head. Not every female that dresses like a man is secretly trans just as not every effeminate male is secretly trans. The existence of butch women may make things confusing for some of us in terms of how we are peceived but its not their problem.
Quote from: CMD042414 on September 13, 2017, 12:08:44 PM
. . . we should take care to leave space for legit lesbians that are masculine and have a butch appearance. A butch woman is an actual thing. Most of them have no desire to be a man. When we as trans men have this conversation it becomes dismissive to cis folks that blur the gender line. . . . Not every female that dresses like a man is secretly trans just as not every effeminate male is secretly trans. The existence of butch women may make things confusing for some of us in terms of how we are peceived but its not their problem.
Thank you, CMD042414, for speaking an important truth!
This site is for trans folks, so it's not surprising that conversation here will be sort of "trans-centric." But it's important for us to recognize the authenticity of gender expression that may superficially resemble ours, even though expressed by those who don't share our inward psychology.
I've been doing a lot of reading recently about the history and evolution of theories of gender identity and gender presentation. It's a real eye-opener.
It was not long ago that society (and importantly, the medical profession!) scarcely recognized that transgender really existed. It was common thirty years ago for people generally (and importantly, doctors and psychologists!) to wrongly assume that trans men were just butch lesbians who, possibly because of homophobia, were attempting to rationalize away their lesbianism by convincing themselves that they were really men. This failure to recognize the authenticity of trans identity caused all kinds of chaos and hurt and confusion.
It's a sign of how far we have come as a trans community that the world is finally beginning to untangle the confusion about trans identity and recognize trans people for who we really are. (Still a long way to go, of course!)
CMD hits the nail on the head: Butch lesbians (and butch women generally) are definitely a thing. They have been a thing for generations, and they will be thing into the future. They're not going anywhere!
MeTonie's basic point is well taken. There's often a lot of superficial resemblance in the gender presentation of trans men and butch women. It's easy to be confused. Don't assume that a woman with butch presentation is an incipient trans man - most of them aren't. If you assume that they are and they're not, then we have misgendered them. And I don't need to tell anyone on this site how painful and annoying it is to be misgendered.
The right thing for us to do is not to make assumptions. If you're having a hard time figuring out someone's gender identity because of mixed cues in presentation, just step back for a second and give that person the space to tell us who they are - on the inside.
ItsApril. Well spoken.
Hey April, everything you said makes complete sense for me. Well said.
I probably look, act and sound fairly butch to some people and as a non binary person I consider that a compliment ;D
You definitely look manly to me. Butch or tomboy dressing by lesbians is just a preference and style that people like. I can see how you might feel that it is distracting to your own presentation, but i would try to not focus on that. I definitely get it though. As a trans woman, i sometimes like to dress sort of tomboy and i wonder what people see me as too.
To other posts: There is a huge difference between lesbians/Gay men and trans people in general. As we know, just because someone wants to present themselves in a more fluid, or masculine (etc) manner, does not mean that they do not value their womanhood and femininity highly. They are not "trying to be guys" anymore than the old stereotype of a gay male being more feminine, is trying to be a girl. Then of course we have the non-binary, fluid people etc. We should be careful about stereotyping our LGTB brothers and sisters. (there is no malice here i understand that)
We are so much more than the clothes we wear as another poster said.
i don't pass, and i don't wear women's clothes or makeup, so everyone i meet assumes i am just a lesbian. that is something i've noticed since moving closer to a city where there's a wider variety of gender presentation and things like women who dress in a more masculine fashion are not out of the norm. it's good that people have freedom to wear what they like, but it does mean that clothing and hairstyle and whatnot aren't going to do much in terms of how people view your gender, which can be very hard on people who want to be seen as their gender but don't have the means to change their bodies. at least the assumption that i'm gay keeps guys from hitting on me...? :'^)
It's an interesting one. I know that gender is a spectrum and gender expression is another spectrum. And folks should be able to do as they like. And then who we are attracted *to* is a whole other thing.
For me, I'm (still!) pre-T and I identify as male. I have changed my dress and appearance as much as I can to be male for the last year and a half while I wait to start T. It's a weird head space to be in, because physically I still look feminine enough, and and androgynous when I'm lucky. If I talk though, it's over - female-sounding voice.
I live in a town that does seem to have a lot of lesbians, which is cool, except quite a few folks see me as lesbian (which I never have been). I'm very much attracted to other guys and have been in dating purgatory in the meantime, which sucks. I don't like being mistaken by a lesbian, and I'm not fully out either. So this time and space is getting very old.
I suppose the only reason I care why people think I am a certain way is because I'm single and one day would like to date guys again. It's been complicated though. Part of my frustration may be that my family has always thought I was a lesbian and had that hanging over me for the last 25 years. And it's never been true. Sigh.
Quote from: Hughie on September 18, 2017, 06:15:00 PM
It's an interesting one. I know that gender is a spectrum and gender expression is another spectrum. And folks should be able to do as they like. And then who we are attracted *to* is a whole other thing.
For me, I'm (still!) pre-T and I identify as male. I have changed my dress and appearance as much as I can to be male for the last year and a half while I wait to start T. It's a weird head space to be in, because physically I still look feminine enough, and and androgynous when I'm lucky. If I talk though, it's over - female-sounding voice.
I live in a town that does seem to have a lot of lesbians, which is cool, except quite a few folks see me as lesbian (which I never have been). I'm very much attracted to other guys and have been in dating purgatory in the meantime, which sucks. I don't like being mistaken by a lesbian, and I'm not fully out either. So this time and space is getting very old.
I suppose the only reason I care why people think I am a certain way is because I'm single and one day would like to date guys again. It's been complicated though. Part of my frustration may be that my family has always thought I was a lesbian and had that hanging over me for the last 25 years. And it's never been true. Sigh.
This sounds like my life...
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Quote from: arice on September 18, 2017, 07:30:33 PM
This sounds like my life...
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Solidarity. :)
I am what people would call me a binary trans guy and I will say this is why i have had an issue with people who dress like the other gender with no intention to change their sex. In now way am I trying to be rude but I have always disliked the lesbians that dress like men, or should I say the ones that act like men and talk like men and even have their hair cut low like men, I think it causes confusion and I feel like this is why transmen are not taken seriously. I have noticed that trans women get taken way more seriously though it may be more acceptable for a woman to dress like a man, I don't see alot of guys dressing like women. I am all for someone doing whatever makes them happy but I guess I would say I am more traditional as far as gender roles goes.
Quote from: Brandon on September 19, 2017, 05:55:11 PM
I am what people would call me a binary trans guy and I will say this is why i have had an issue with people who dress like the other gender with no intention to change their sex. In now way am I trying to be rude but I have always disliked the lesbians that dress like men, or should I say the ones that act like men and talk like men and even have their hair cut low like men, I think it causes confusion and I feel like this is why transmen are not taken seriously. I have noticed that trans women get taken way more seriously though it may be more acceptable for a woman to dress like a man, I don't see alot of guys dressing like women. I am all for someone doing whatever makes them happy but I guess I would say I am more traditional as far as gender roles goes.
You don't have to like the lesbians who present as male. Their identity and expression have nothing to do with you. That it makes your life difficult is your problem not theirs.
Every person should be free to express themselves through the clothing and hairstyles that make them feel most comfortable and confident. This needs to be true for both men and women though it currently is not. Respecting people's gender expression is just as important as respecting their gender identity.
The social climate that gives you the freedom to medically transition is the same one that lets women wear pants and have short hair.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Quote from: arice on September 19, 2017, 07:37:55 PM
You don't have to like the lesbians who present as male. Their identity and expression have nothing to do with you. That it makes your life difficult is your problem not theirs.
Every person should be free to express themselves through the clothing and hairstyles that make them feel most comfortable and confident. This needs to be true for both men and women though it currently is not. Respecting people's gender expression is just as important as respecting their gender identity.
The social climate that gives you the freedom to medically transition is the same one that lets women wear pants and have short hair.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
So you are telling me as a person of color that, that should I say the black lesbians acting like men doesn't affect me and how people precieve me? Cuz you got a lot of studs walking around here and I am not talking about those in which you can still tell they are girls, I am talking about the ones who go all out but say they have no gender idenity issues. As I already stated I don't care what you do but just like they have free will to do as they please, I hsve free will to my oppinion.
[/quote]
Quote from: Brandon on September 19, 2017, 09:37:54 PM
So you are telling me as a person of color that, that should I say the black lesbians acting like men doesn't affect me and how people precieve me? Cuz you got a lot of studs walking around here and I am not talking about those in which you can still tell they are girls, I am talking about the ones who go all out but say they have no gender idenity issues. As I already stated I don't care what you do but just like they have free will to do as they please, I hsve free will to my oppinion.
Of course you are free to your opinion and others are free to judge you based on it. Freedom of opinion/peech etc does not mean freedom from the consequences of it. I am saying that their identity is as valid as yours and that they probably don't care whether you like it... Their identity is about them not you just like your identity is about you not them (or me or anyone else). I'm not saying you have to like it, just that your opinion on it doesn't matter to them.
Also, I'm sure it does influence how people perceive you but you ultimately can't control that. All you can control is how you respond. I don't particularly like being mistaken for a lesbian either but that doesn't make me lash out at lesbians. If anything, it has made me more understanding of what lesbians are experiencing.
Ultimately, you can only do you and other people will do them.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Quote from: arice on September 19, 2017, 09:41:45 PM
I am saying that their identity is as valid as yours and that they probably don't care whether you like it... Their identity is about them not you just like your identity is about you not them (or me or anyone else). I'm not saying you have to like it, just that your opinion on it doesn't matter to them.
Also, I'm sure it does influence how people perceive you but you ultimately can't control that. All you can control is how you respond. I don't particularly like being mistaken for a lesbian either but that doesn't make me last out at lesbians. If anything, it has made me more understanding of what lesbians are experiencing.
Ultimately, you can only do you and other people will do them.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
I am sure they don't care if I like it or not but do I care lol? No. Never said anything about their identity either as I don't care how you identify yourself. I simply stated it causes confusion and it does and the only reason I don't like it is because of my traditional views and again I am talking about those that go full out with it.
Gender identity, sexual and romantic orientation, gender expression, and gender roles are complex things, and very few of us wear detailed labels describing just how we are and how we identify.
I have had people question my identity, apparently under the assumption that I am a gay male doing this for some reason they couldn't express. I've had 'supportive' people tell me "you look just like a real woman". The thing is, even though they thought that the questions were valid, I personally found them invasive and insulting.
Lesbian women wearing more masculine apparel face the same thing, others effectively challenging their very identity because they are doing something that others find confusing or 'not right', which these women find invasive and insulting.
Please remember that all of us, lesbian, gay, straight, or transgender, are human beings, with human feelings. Please just accept others as they are. We are not entitled to know what's in the pants of others, or their most private selves. Empathy is vital. Please consider how comfortable you would be in receiving questions, comments, or criticism that you want to offer others. Try to put yourselves in their place.
Quote from: Michelle_P on September 19, 2017, 10:18:41 PM
Gender identity, sexual and romantic orientation, gender expression, and gender roles are complex things, and very few of us wear detailed labels describing just how we are and how we identify.
I have had people question my identity, apparently under the assumption that I am a gay male doing this for some reason they couldn't express. I've had 'supportive' people tell me "you look just like a real woman". The thing is, even though they thought that the questions were valid, I personally found them invasive and insulting.
Lesbian women wearing more masculine apparel face the same thing, others effectively challenging their very identity because they are doing something that others find confusing or 'not right', which these women find invasive and insulting.
Please remember that all of us, lesbian, gay, straight, or transgender, are human beings, with human feelings. Please just accept others as they are. We are not entitled to know what's in the pants of others, or their most private selves. Empathy is vital. Please consider how comfortable you would be in receiving questions, comments, or criticism that you want to offer others. Try to put yourselves in their place.
So by that logic they are presenting themselves as male? Which for the life me I couldn't understand how any transmen would be nessciacrily okay with that. Like I said I am only speaking on that ones that try their hardest to look like men and then gets mad when someone refers to them as one. You can't make everyone accept everyone lol. That right there is why alot of non lgbt people get mad because you are forcing it on someone but that's a whole nother topic for a different time. In no way am I trying to be rude I am just saying it bugs me and if how you identify also falls in line with how you present yourself then yes most of those women that look like dudes are identifying themselves as male without even knowing it.
They are presenting as human beings. Gender identity, sexual and romantic orientation, gender expression and roles are all continuums.
Trying to fit everyone into the single gender binary demanded by Western culture will cause one to be confused, as all of we gender variant and gender incongruent persons simply don't fit that model.
Demanding that we humans all follow the misconceptions of a single binary enforced by one culture is precisely what drives many of us into anxiety and depression, as we are forced to hide our true selves for fear of upsetting the dominant culture and inviting attack.
Please don't do that. It really is not appreciated.
I am a woman.
I am attracted to other women. I present quite femme. I happen to be a pre-op transgender person.
I AM NOT A STRAIGHT MAN DRESSED AS A GIRL.
I am simply presenting as myself, as I feel most comfortable.
A butch lesbian is simply dressing as she feels comfortable.
I cannot make others accept me, but I can complain about the damage they cause with their absurd opinions about how others should be.
I am a human being. Details about what happens to be under my clothing, about my precise nature, are nobody's business but my own. If I choose to share intimate details that is my business, but neither I nor anyone else owes others an explanation about their existence.
We exist. We have a right to exist. If some one person is confused by seeing us, that is entirely their problem.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
One of my regular clients is extremely masculine. She dresses in guy clothes and she gets different styles of buzz cuts. She always specifies that she wants a male haircut. I use she because she identifies as female, at least she does to me. I don't know if she's lesbian, trans or what. I would never ask someone a question like that. I figure they will tell me what they want me to know. I don't really care what she is because she's a nice person and a good customer. Personally I don't care what sex someone appears to be as long as they are a nice person.
I agree that people should be allowed to dress or present as they please but I disagree with the notion that "how it affects you isn't their problem, it's yours". While it's true that you can't control what others do, that type of attitude and kind of thinking is what's wrong with the world. No one cares about how their actions affect others.
That being said, I don't think a woman dressing like a man or vice versa is that damaging to trans people. What's damaging is how the uneducated majority react to the way people dress or present themselves. Those are the people who need to stop and think about how they're affecting others with their judgement.
Marlene Dietrich , Madonna are the best to be able to pull off that illusions the best and I love. So what, if you have an issue with what somebody choose to wear
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Contravene on September 20, 2017, 09:21:18 PM
I agree that people should be allowed to dress or present as they please but I disagree with the notion that "how it affects you isn't their problem, it's yours". While it's true that you can't control what others do, that type of attitude and kind of thinking is what's wrong with the world. No one cares about how their actions affect others.
That being said, I don't think a woman dressing like a man or vice versa is that damaging to trans people. What's damaging is how the uneducated majority react to the way people dress or present themselves. Those are the people who need to stop and think about how they're affecting others with their judgement.
I agree that people should think about how their actions affect others when it comes to being maliciously hurtful. However, the clothing and hairstyle choices one person makes do not fit into that category. Would you want to be told that your gender expression is a random stranger's business or problem and that you should think about their feelings every morning when you pick out your outfit? I'm sure you wouldn't, neither do butch lesbians.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
It should just become the norm to ask someone what their pronouns are. Then they'd be no problems if someone finds someone else's gender expression 'confusing'. It shouldn't be taken as insulting. And it's the easiest way to be respectable and polite instead of just making assumptions.
QuoteSo by that logic they are presenting themselves as male? Which for the life me I couldn't understand how any transmen would be nessciacrily okay with that. Like I said I am only speaking on that ones that try their hardest to look like men and then gets mad when someone refers to them as one. You can't make everyone accept everyone lol. That right there is why alot of non lgbt people get mad because you are forcing it on someone but that's a whole nother topic for a different time. In no way am I trying to be rude I am just saying it bugs me and if how you identify also falls in line with how you present yourself then yes most of those women that look like dudes are identifying themselves as male without even knowing it.
How you identify falling in line with how you present yourself? So if you dress in a manner that society has defined as manly you therefore MUST identify as a man??? That is so limiting. And quite frankly it astonishes me when we as trans folks think along these lines. Identifying themselves as male without knowing it?? They are identifying as masculine yes. But clothing does not define gender. Wow.
Presentation does not equal identity. I have presented as both male and female, and passed both ways, but no matter how I present, that is not a statement on or pre-requisite for my identity.
I am a woman, who likes women, and who also likes comfortable flannel, levi's and a fluffy short haircut. I don't wear makeup.
In your attempt to claim that butch cis women are somehow trampling on your space, you are forgetting that there also trans women like myself who occupy the butch lesbian space.
Don't equate presentation to gender identity.
Quote from: arice on September 21, 2017, 03:03:16 PM
I agree that people should think about how their actions affect others when it comes to being maliciously hurtful. However, the clothing and hairstyle choices one person makes do not fit into that category. Would you want to be told that your gender expression is a random stranger's business or problem and that you should think about their feelings every morning when you pick out your outfit? I'm sure you wouldn't, neither do butch lesbians.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
That was more or less what I said in my second paragraph.
Quote from: Contravene on September 21, 2017, 07:40:07 PM
That was more or less what I said in my second paragraph.
Forgive my misunderstanding... I got hung up on the first paragraph where you said the opposite...
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Quote from: CMD042414 on September 21, 2017, 04:23:00 PM
How you identify falling in line with how you present yourself? So if you dress in a manner that society has defined as manly you therefore MUST identify as a man??? That is so limiting. And quite frankly it astonishes me when we as trans folks think along these lines. Identifying themselves as male without knowing it?? They are identifying as masculine yes. But clothing does not define gender. Wow.
Well I mean there are clothes for men and women for a reason? I am sorry you guys disagree with my views but its all in how you present yourself and you are essentially presenting yourself as male??? Hence as to why, if a lesbian looked liked a dude and had no signs of boobs or anything they would get clocked as male on the street that's my point and if a stud lesbian should I say is presneting herself as male, that would become apart of her identity and as I have said this is why transmen don't get taken seriously in the early stages
Quote from: Averyel on September 21, 2017, 05:38:34 PM
Presentation does not equal identity. I have presented as both male and female, and passed both ways, but no matter how I present, that is not a statement on or pre-requisite for my identity.
I am a woman, who likes women, and who also likes comfortable flannel, levi's and a fluffy short haircut. I don't wear makeup.
In your attempt to claim that butch cis women are somehow trampling on your space, you are forgetting that there also trans women like myself who occupy the butch lesbian space.
Don't equate presentation to gender identity.
That goes for evrerybody that identifies theirself as butch or as a stud.
Quote from: Elis on September 21, 2017, 03:26:31 PM
It should just become the norm to ask someone what their pronouns are. Then they'd be no problems if someone finds someone else's gender expression 'confusing'. It shouldn't be taken as insulting. And it's the easiest way to be respectable and polite instead of just making assumptions.
If that's the case then why do some lesbians get mad when you ask them if they are a dude or a girl? That don't always work my friend and no one has time to sit here and ask what you prefer they are gonna clock you based on how you present yourself.
Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2017, 03:20:38 AM
If that's the case then why do some lesbians get mad when you ask them if they are a dude or a girl? That don't always work my friend and no one has time to sit here and ask what you prefer they are gonna clock you based on how you present yourself.
The gender cues are there, you just have to be able to see them - something that comes with experience..
Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2017, 03:15:47 AM
Well I mean there are clothes for men and women for a reason?
For the same reason we separate toys by gender and assign pink to girls and blue to boys. These are societal norms that came about as a result of ignorant, narrowminded thinking eons ago. Essentially your argument is akin to saying to butch women, "I get read as a lesbian in the early stages of my transition so can you kindly just stop being who you are and dress like a woman is supposed to? Thanks."
Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2017, 03:20:38 AM
If that's the case then why do some lesbians get mad when you ask them if they are a dude or a girl? That don't always work my friend and no one has time to sit here and ask what you prefer they are gonna clock you based on how you present yourself.
Because that would be rude and confrontational. I meant it should become the norm that as well as introducing your name to a new person you should also state what your pronouns are or as well as asking what someone's name is; which wouldn't be considered rude you'd also ask what they pronouns they use.
Many people happen to look androgynous. It shouldn't be assumed that by asking what pronouns you use I'm implying that to me you look like a man or woman; just that you look in between and I want to avoid possible embarrassment, dysphoria being triggered or rudeness by making sure I'm referring to you in the right way.
Quote from: CMD042414 on September 22, 2017, 05:54:07 AM
For the same reason we separate toys by gender and assign pink to girls and blue to boys. These are societal norms that came about as a result of ignorant, narrowminded thinking eons ago. Essentially your argument is akin to saying to butch women, "I get read as a lesbian in the early stages of my transition so can you kindly just stop being who you are and dress like a woman is supposed to? Thanks."
No that goes both ways I don't even think men should dress like women. It goes both ways for me and actually, I am not even speaking on my behalf lol, 90% of the time, I get clocked for male. So thats not my issue I am talkimg about the people that can't pass and its not even just about passing, in general I think trans people would get taken seriously if people would dress in gender appropriate clothes, that's ny oppinion. So now I am narrowminded because I am a traditional guy? I guess I will be narrowminded then because if I had a son or a daughter, they would dress in gender appropriate clothes and my daughter would be in and pink and my son in blue. You can't call somebody stuff like that because just because it doesn't fit your ideas.
Quote from: Elis on September 22, 2017, 05:59:32 AM
Because that would be rude and confrontational. I meant it should become the norm that as well as introducing your name to a new person you should also state what your pronouns are or as well as asking what someone's name is; which wouldn't be considered rude you'd also ask what they pronouns they use.
Many people happen to look androgynous. It shouldn't be assumed that by asking what pronouns you use I'm implying that to me you look like a man or woman; just that you look in between and I want to avoid possible embarrassment, dysphoria being triggered or rudeness by making sure I'm referring to you in the right way.
I am sorry I feel as if you look like a dude and someone calls you a guy you shouldn't get mad when thats how you are presenting yourself and no one is gonna take the time to do that, that's my point. I don't even do that if I see someone that looks in between at work.
Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2017, 08:01:42 AM
I am sorry I feel as if you look like a dude and someone calls you a guy you shouldn't get mad when thats how you are presenting yourself and no one is gonna take the time to do that, that's my point. I don't even do that if I see someone that looks in between at work.
If it became the norm like introducing ones name it wouldn't be seen as a big deal. I don't think people should choose between what clothes they feel comfortable in and being referred to as the correct gender; whether cis or trans.
Trousers used to be for men only; so did shirts and wearing pink. Should women stay away from those things because they could get referred to as male despite them liking how those things look on themselves and a polite pronoun question would solve the issue?
Quote from: Elis on September 22, 2017, 08:21:33 AM
If it became the norm like introducing ones name it wouldn't be seen as a big deal. I don't think people should choose between what clothes they feel comfortable in and being referred to as the correct gender; whether cis or trans.
Trousers used to be for men only; so did shirts and wearing pink. Should women stay away from those things because they could get referred to as male despite them liking how those things look on themselves and a polite pronoun question would solve the issue?
Dude we are not talking about back in the day we are talking present day. This is why I don't really like talking to people in the lgbt community because I can't have a logical conversation with some of you. Obviously back in the trousers were meant for men only and not only that there are trousers now for women that you can clearly tell are for women, same for shirts and whatever, so that comment didn't really make sense tbh and we are talking present day anyways where there are 2 sections for men or women. If you really can't see how it would cause confusion then idk man and I have come across people that even if you ask whats your pronous or slip up they will get pissy, in my oppinion its doing to much.
Be the change in the world you wish to see, gender presentation included. There is no real reason to malign others for their clothing choices or how they present on the masculine, feminine spectrum. There is no reason to keep things as they were or feel uncomfortable.
As a culture we can move beyond all that. The result is a much more interesting and diverse bunch of humans.
Quote from: RobynD on September 22, 2017, 01:46:56 PM
. . . There is no real reason to malign others for their clothing choices or how they present on the masculine, feminine spectrum. There is no reason to keep things as they were or feel uncomfortable.
As a culture we can move beyond all that. The result is a much more interesting and diverse bunch of humans.
Exactly.
If a butch lesbian is wearing clothes that seem masculine, she's not wearing "men's clothes." She's wearing HER clothes. End of story.
Quote from: itsApril on September 22, 2017, 01:58:41 PM
Exactly.
If a butch lesbian is wearing clothes that seem masculine, she's not wearing "men's clothes." She's wearing HER clothes. End of story.
Exactly! Clothes don't have a gender.
Frankly, I find this argument about "appropriate clothes for your gender" a bit silly and confining.
Brandon, what if you have a daughter that you make wear pink and dresses and she hated it? Aren't you forcing her to fit into your idea of "what's appropriate for girls" and perpetuating the gender stereotype that you are currently in as a trans person?
I'm just asking.
Ryuichi
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
Brandon, and others wondering about all this gender identity, presentation, and role stuff, I put something together just for you.
This is a 35 minute presentation on the topic. There is a link on the YouTube page to handouts that go along with the talk.
Please take a look. I hope this will clear up some of the confusion I see in these posts.
https://youtu.be/mQSRNrYkRd0
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think some think it's either/or, but the truth is they could be trans and lesbian. We tend to think of our gender first and it seems gays think of sexuality first, but all of us tick off boxes in the gender and sexuality category. They may not self-identify as trans, but the male gender is more acceptable with the female sex than the reverse and that has its social consequences. I just see them as people that are on a particular part of several spectrums like all of us.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: itsApril on September 22, 2017, 01:58:41 PM
Exactly.
If a butch lesbian is wearing clothes that seem masculine, she's not wearing "men's clothes." She's wearing HER clothes. End of story.
I am sorry but I strongly disagree and I can now see why alot if people have an issue with the lgbt community because in a way you are twisting things to make it suit you and for your own comfort and I am trying to be as respectful as possible but I see it. I am not with all the new age of thinking. Maybe its because of my relgiious background but thats not ment for this section but i can't get with it. Its still mens clothes.
Quote from: Ryuichi13 on September 22, 2017, 05:06:19 PM
Exactly! Clothes don't have a gender.
Frankly, I find this argument about "appropriate clothes for your gender" a bit silly and confining.
Brandon, what if you have a daughter that you make wear pink and dresses and she hated it? Aren't you forcing her to fit into your idea of "what's appropriate for girls" and perpetuating the gender stereotype that you are currently in as a trans person?
I'm just asking.
Ryuichi
Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
As a baby, she's not gonna know whats going on but when she's old enough to speak she can wear blue but as far as dressing like a boy, no. I stand by the belief that you should raise a child up in the way should go and alot of you might disagree but again that's my belief, now if she gets older and is not comfortable then we can have a converstaion but she's gonna be a kid, its no need for all that.
Quote from: Brandon on September 23, 2017, 12:11:12 AM
As a baby, she's not gonna know whats going on but when she's old enough to speak she can wear blue but as far as dressing like a boy, no. I stand by the belief that you should raise a child up in the way should go and alot of you might disagree but again that's my belief, now if she gets older and is not comfortable then we can have a converstaion but she's gonna be a kid, its no need for all that.
I hope you never have a trans child..
Quote from: kelly_aus on September 23, 2017, 12:48:16 AM
I hope you never have a trans child..
And if I do I will still be a great Dad lol, just because I happen to be a transguy myself doesn't mean i gotta have the same views as you and if you read, I said if they were uncomfortable, we would talk about it but you missed that. I mean really what's so wrong with wanting my daughter to wear girl clothes and son to wear boy clothes or even pink and blue, that's how you distinguish babies??? This right here again is why the lgbt community is not taken seriously.
No, that right there is why 41% of us take a concrete swan dive. Brandon, most of us have discovered that no one really cares what we're doing or what we look like. We just need to let everybody do their thing, even the little ones. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Brandon on September 23, 2017, 12:07:25 AM
Maybe its because of my relgiious background but thats not ment for this section but i can't get with it. Its still mens clothes.
And I'm sure you've used some roundabout logic to square away being trans with your religious background. Dude, if you were born a cis male you'd probably be the anti-lgbt type. Like straight up, yo. The hilarious thing about this is, you obviously have to have some degree of "tolerance" of us lgbtq's because of an unfortunate roll of the dice. You really sound like the Ben Carson of the trans community.
Quote from: CMD042414 on September 23, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
And I'm sure you've used some roundabout logic to square away being trans with your religious background. Dude, if you were born a cis male you'd probably be the anti-lgbt type. Like straight up, yo. The hilarious thing about this is, you obviously have to have some degree of "tolerance" of us lgbtq's because of an unfortunate roll of the dice. You really sound like the Ben Carson of the trans community.
Maybe, maybe not. I think the lgbt community needs to make their tent bigger. The prayer book and hymnal are pretty limited and musterbation exists as bad as some SoCon circles. It's ok if others don't follow the script religiously or barely at all.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: CMD042414 on September 23, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
And I'm sure you've used some roundabout logic to square away being trans with your religious background. Dude, if you were born a cis male you'd probably be the anti-lgbt type. Like straight up, yo. The hilarious thing about this is, you obviously have to have some degree of "tolerance" of us lgbtq's because of an unfortunate roll of the dice. You really sound like the Ben Carson of the trans community.
Don't know what you are trying to get at in your first sentence but that's between me and my creator and the bible doesn't speak about that but this isn't a religious forum. I wouldn't be anti lgbt if i was a cis male, I have a right to disagree with some of the things reguarding lgbt and I find it mighty funny that is soon as a trans person says there religious people like you laugh. Its funny to me really. This is why I don't even involve myself with the community.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 23, 2017, 06:55:46 AM
No, that right there is why 41% of us take a concrete swan dive. Brandon, most of us have discovered that no one really cares what we're doing or what we look like. We just need to let everybody do their thing, even the little ones. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
Devlyn, one of the more challenging groups that I've come across in teaching about gender issues is... the LGBTQ community!
I've run across the most amazing misconceptions there, stuff long known to be untrue by psychologists and trivially refuted, if they are willing to listen. (No examples, as almost all are ToS violations!)
Tough crowd here. Don't expect to change the opinion of anyone ideologically wedded to their misconceptions. Presenting facts just makes that person clutch their ideology even more tightly.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Whoa, this thread certainly got interesting.
As a binary transman, frankly, I couldn't possibly care less how anyone else wants to present themselves. Did masculine-presenting lesbians make it tougher pre-everything? Not directly (and through no fault of their own), but sure. There was no part of me that enjoyed being read as a lesbian but that's just how it went down.
It's not up to me or anyone to make choices for someone else. This is where 'opinions' can easily become toxic, especially if held by a majority.
IE: "I think lesbians and gays are disgusting and shouldn't be allowed to marry or even be in relationships!"
Majority rules, laws get passed, people's lives get steamrolled because of feelings.
I can't wrap my head around how people can't just accept that not everyone is the same and just roll with it.
The clothing argument is forced to me because clothing is so subjective and heavily dependent on whatever way society happens to be leaning. Look at the eighties, for god's sake: Everyone was androgynous. Everyone had huge hair, makeup, tons of accessories and spandex. 'Men's' clothing from that era would be scoffed at now but it was once more than perfectly acceptable.
They're just clothes. It's not the butch lesbian's fault that what she likes to wear sometimes puts us in a social bind.
Quote from: arice on September 21, 2017, 07:43:39 PM
Forgive my misunderstanding... I got hung up on the first paragraph where you said the opposite...
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
Oops, I thought I hit reply but I guess I lost my post.
It's no problem if you misunderstood. I guess my first paragraph sounds a little contradictory but I didn't mean that people need to be aware of the way they dress or present affects others because it's harmful. They just have to be aware that others might not understand. Women who have a butch style have to be prepared to be misgendered, trans men who don't quite pass yet have to prepare themselves to be misgendered and so on. That's what sucks but it's the world we live in. Not everyone is as educated about these things as they should be. On the other side of the coin the people who do the assuming and accidental misgendering should be aware of how what they say can affect the people they're misgendering. They're the ones who need to educate themselves. That was the point of my second paragraph. I'm not sure if that makes more sense or not.
Quote from: Contravene on September 26, 2017, 06:35:27 AM
Oops, I thought I hit reply but I guess I lost my post.
It's no problem if you misunderstood. I guess my first paragraph sounds a little contradictory but I didn't mean that people need to be aware of the way they dress or present affects others because it's harmful. They just have to be aware that others might not understand. Women who have a butch style have to be prepared to be misgendered, trans men who don't quite pass yet have to prepare themselves to be misgendered and so on. That's what sucks but it's the world we live in. Not everyone is as educated about these things as they should be. On the other side of the coin the people who do the assuming and accidental misgendering should be aware of how what they say can affect the people they're misgendering. They're the ones who need to educate themselves. That was the point of my second paragraph. I'm not sure if that makes more sense or not.
It does and I agree with you completely.
Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
If you don't want women wearing men's clothes, you should talk to clothing manufacturers into making men's clothes more expensive, less durable, and less comfortable, and definitely get them to stop including usable pockets!
I was talking to one of my bi friends, who's married to a man and a mother, about this and she shared that she doesn't appreciate that just because she likes wearing flannel and jeans she gets read as lesbian.
While I do think lesbians like myself should be able to wear whatever we want, I do now think it's weird how hard-programmed people are to see women wearing men's clothes as automatically lesbian.
There's also a similar issue where so many people co-opting the lesbian aesthetic (flannel, backwards baseball cap, etc) along with the trans community becoming more visible has contributed to what's called 'lesbian erasure' - the disintegration of a recognizable and distinct lesbian culture.
It's a complicated topic, and something that plays at multiple aspects of my identity.
Quote from: Averyel on September 26, 2017, 04:10:35 PM
...
There's also a similar issue where so many people co-opting the lesbian aesthetic (flannel, backwards baseball cap, etc) along with the trans community becoming more visible has contributed to what's called 'lesbian erasure' - the disintegration of a recognizable and distinct lesbian culture.
It's a complicated topic, and something that plays at multiple aspects of my identity.
Cultural erasure? Try being a femme lesbian. The cultural erasure and denial of validity can be intense. (For extra fun, add in being clocked and thrown out of women's spaces.)
I really do wish people could respect other people AS PEOPLE, rather than painting little boxes around each of us and electing to interact only with one set of boxes and no others. I think I am actually a pretty nice person, but I typically don't get a chance to interact with others because I'm in their wrong box.
Add in that the box I am painted into by others severely limits the kinds of interactions I can have, and, well, it really is irritating. "This is Michelle, our token trans person." "Oh, my cousin is gay. Do you know him?"
It really is annoying.
The reality is that when you are different you stand out, that goes for these categories as well as many others. Do you need to be prepared for that? As far as can yes, but in the end standing out is not all bad.
I could give you many instances where my fairly unique look etc, were advantages and it drove people to want to know me and interact with me. As a people person, that is awesome.
Our society is more diverse than in any point at least going back to the pre-christian era and that diversity, nudged along by things like globalism, the internet, entertainment and media came in a large part, by people stepping out and saying.... "Nope i am not going to let that cultural constraint stop me from what i want to do " Forget wearing wool skirted swimsuits into the ocean i am baring my legs....
Our society is by no means complete and people always push back on changes. I like to call those folks "cultural antibodies" and then seek out the new and changed things and try and squash them. That rarely works though. Humans are strong and addicted to change.
I've heard this topic being brought up in other spaces before, but I've never had much of an opinion on it. As far as I know, I was never seen as a butch lesbian in my early transition/pre-t, but rather as an androgynous goth person, and passed about 50% of the time back then. Maybe me mostly having been around in goth/synth/metal circles, very few assumed my sexuality. However some were surprised that I was into men as a trans guy, if I told them. I don't have any issues with whatever anyone is wearing/wants to wear style wise. More so other people have had issues with the styles I've been wearing, for various reasons. I do however understand the frustration in being mistaken for what you're not, especially if it happens often (like with any form of misgendering), but I wouldn't blame the butch lesbians, or anyone for that matter. I think people will always have wrong assumptions about other people regardless of how well we all try to portray our messages. I mean, if it's not one thing people get wrong, it's something else. (Just something I learned from being bullied in my childhood, actually.)
Quote from: Contravene on September 26, 2017, 06:35:27 AM
Oops, I thought I hit reply but I guess I lost my post.
It's no problem if you misunderstood. I guess my first paragraph sounds a little contradictory but I didn't mean that people need to be aware of the way they dress or present affects others because it's harmful. They just have to be aware that others might not understand. Women who have a butch style have to be prepared to be misgendered, trans men who don't quite pass yet have to prepare themselves to be misgendered and so on. That's what sucks but it's the world we live in. Not everyone is as educated about these things as they should be. On the other side of the coin the people who do the assuming and accidental misgendering should be aware of how what they say can affect the people they're misgendering. They're the ones who need to educate themselves. That was the point of my second paragraph. I'm not sure if that makes more sense or not.
The ignorance out there is incredible. I have a Co-worker that calls transgender/transsexual people ->-bleeped-<-s. He's younger than I am. He's also a born again. My fervent desire for these people is that someone in their family, immediate, even better, come out as trans.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: Averyel on September 26, 2017, 04:10:35 PM
If you don't want women wearing men's clothes, you should talk to clothing manufacturers into making men's clothes more expensive, less durable, and less comfortable, and definitely get them to stop including usable pockets!
This comment is really ridiculous and feminist manifesto in a nutshell.
Why not just make women's clothes comfortable by making them baggy and cheap? Lol
Doubt most women would gravitate to it if it was like that anyway.
Making men's clothes less comfortable is like saying let's make whites slaves so they'll understand how black people feel and won't make comments on racism.
Why do you people feel men should be made uncomfortable just to pander to female suffrage?
I hate being seen as a lesbian more than being seen as a straight woman tbh.
Not their faults though. It's their rights, but that being said I can see how some people don't understand why some lesbians don't transition to men or feel trans.
One of my best friends is a lesbian, and she refers to her junk as a (manhood), she prefers we call her bro and not sis and if nobody's around, she'll go in the men's restroom.
I wonder if she's considering transitioning but I would never mention to her because of how she reacts when someone asked or if someone "sir" her.
I honestly can't believe that this is a genuine conversation that people still have.
Quite frankly, a lot of us wouldn't be alive if we were forced to dress a certain way by the gender police. Let's not forget that.
Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 31, 2017, 03:21:58 PM
Making men's clothes less comfortable is like saying let's make whites slaves so they'll understand how black people feel and won't make comments on racism.
Why do you people feel men should be made uncomfortable just to pander to female suffrage?
As a black person this is an absolutely ridiculous statement. For all I know you're also black, and if you are it's even more egregious. The two things you are comparing are so far apart in every way possible it's not even funny.
I agreed with your position in your post about the NB/GC issue but here it seems you're reaching to make your point. This is what I mean about opposite sides of the same coin. It legitimately seems as though your contempt for women is not altogether different from the very anti-men sentiment you crusade against. You're not much different than those lady folk you have disdain for.
Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 31, 2017, 03:27:56 PM
I hate being seen as a lesbian more than being seen as a straight woman tbh.
Not their faults though. It's their rights, but that being said I can see how some people don't understand why some lesbians don't transition to men or feel trans.
One of my best friends is a lesbian, and she refers to her junk as a (manhood), she prefers we call her bro and not sis and if nobody's around, she'll go in the men's restroom.
I wonder if she's considering transitioning but I would never mention to her because of how she reacts when someone asked or if someone "sir" her.
No. She isn't. Because she isn't trans. She's a masculine female. Which is a thing and she has every right to be who she is. Perhaps she prefers male terms for certain things because she feels she does not have a third option. Some NB folks oppose the way we self identity. We know first hand how frustrating and anger inducing that is. Why turn around and question the identity of others then? Is there any gray area anymore or is everyone always stubbornly on one side or the other? We all exist. We all self identity. We are all legitimate.
There are masculine women. There are effeminate men. They are not all trans. And that is ok. Anyone who is trans and feels threatened by the existence of these folks has issues that go way beyond the argument being p1ut forth by the OP!
Quote from: CMD042414 on December 31, 2017, 11:30:15 PM
No. She isn't. Because she isn't trans. She's a masculine female. Which is a thing and she has every right to be who she is. Perhaps she prefers male terms for certain things because she feels she does not have a third option. Some NB folks oppose the way we self identity. We know first hand how frustrating and anger inducing that is. Why turn around and question the identity of others then? Is there any gray area anymore or is everyone always stubbornly on one side or the other? We all exist. We all self identity. We are all legitimate.
There are masculine women. There are effeminate men. They are not all trans. And that is ok. Anyone who is trans and feels threatened by the existence of these folks has issues that go way beyond the argument being p1ut forth by the OP!
Masculine females and feminine men. In my opinion they are still on the transgender spectrum. In the case of a butch lesbian, they are, IMO, more male gender, female external sex and lesbian sexual orientation. In our society, being a Tomboy or butch is more acceptable than a man being effeminate and this has consequences to self-identity. The fact is that internal gender identity, external gender expression, sex characteristics, sexual orientation and emotional/romantic attraction are all separate characteristics that can seemingly be at odds at times or not. How someone identifies is up to them, but all of us humans fall somewhere on a spectrum in each of those categories and more regardless of what we say we are. To put it another way, masculine female is not such a big deal, but sexual orientation may be for that person. Being transgender or on the gender spectrum isn't a discrete binary. All humans fall somewhere on it and some don't understand the differences in those different categories within themselves and choose something that has meaning to them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: CMD042414 on December 31, 2017, 11:20:37 PM
As a black person this is an absolutely ridiculous statement. For all I know you're also black, and if you are it's even more egregious. The two things you are comparing are so far apart in every way possible it's not even funny.
I agreed with your position in your post about the NB/GC issue but here it seems you're reaching to make your point. This is what I mean about opposite sides of the same coin. It legitimately seems as though your contempt for women is not altogether different from the very anti-men sentiment you crusade against. You're not much different than those lady folk you have disdain for.
I'm mixed, and my point is how stupid statements like these are, I'm obviously not comparing the two lol.
I don't go around posting anti women stuff, I post against things I find stupid. If someone made this same statement about women I would say the same but that doesn't happen now does it?
But God forbid we all not think the same.
Quote from: CMD042414 on December 31, 2017, 11:30:15 PM
No. She isn't. Because she isn't trans. She's a masculine female. Which is a thing and she has every right to be who she is. Perhaps she prefers male terms for certain things because she feels she does not have a third option. Some NB folks oppose the way we self identity. We know first hand how frustrating and anger inducing that is. Why turn around and question the identity of others then? Is there any gray area anymore or is everyone always stubbornly on one side or the other? We all exist. We all self identity. We are all legitimate.
There are masculine women. There are effeminate men. They are not all trans. And that is ok. Anyone who is trans and feels threatened by the existence of these folks has issues that go way beyond the argument being p1ut forth by the OP!
I don't feel in the slightest threatened by them, again I'm stating how I understand why some cis people get confused by over the top butch women.
There's being masculine and beyond that.
Why do you feel the need to call your private a let's say typical male organ if you're female?
It's cool by me, but it's bound to confuse people.
And it's stupid to get mad if someone doesn't get it, or they're confused by it.
Quote from: AquaWhatever on January 01, 2018, 07:33:36 PM
I don't feel in the slightest threatened by them, again I'm stating how I understand why some cis people get confused by over the top butch women.
There's being masculine and beyond that.
Why do you feel the need to call your private a let's say typical male organ if you're female?
It's cool by me, but it's bound to confuse people.
And it's stupid to get mad if someone doesn't get it, or they're confused by it.
My point is exactly. It makes no sense and people get mad when people wanna question it. I do not get it.
:police: Thread is locked for review :police: