Susan's Place Transgender Resources

How do you define it? How does it affect the community? Do you suffer from it?

Thoughts, please.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I'm extremely careful with the word "internalized" as it relates to any sort of -phobia or -ogyny these days as it appears to be easily misused.

But... as I currently understand the definition of internalized transphobia...


...Which would appear to be negative thoughts, emotions and associations with being oneself trans, and a bias against being trans one may be unaware of. Commonly because being trans is seen as abnormal or deviant in wider society.

I don't have any form of this, it would seem. When my therapists ask me about it, I explain that any self-hate is long, long behind me, put away well over a decade ago before I even realized I was transsexual; I certainly wouldn't have hated myself for the fact of being trans. What I dislike is the potential negative experience and inconveniences one deals with as a trans person, which isn't the same thing. I have absolutely no dislike or disdain of trans people for the fact they are trans, nor of myself for being one. I see it reflected in the fact if someone I was dating was revealed to be one, I wouldn't be surprised, or put off. If I deal with trans people in real life it is the content of their characters that determines my opinion of them. Frankly I think I'm a fairly intelligent, rational, and well-balanced individual, and whether or not I happen to be trans doesn't lower my own value in the slightest to me.

While I do consider being transsexual to be a generally negative and stressful experience - I see it as no worse than being born with some other malady or disease one cannot help. I can't justify or experience a dislike of those born with other neurological or physical conditions or disabilities, either... and far as I can see trans people are no threat to society by way of being trans. The negative reception we get is rather an overreaction in this day and age (provided of course we do not actively engage in malicious or forceful behaviors relating to our condition and identities as trans people).

How does it affect the community - not sure exactly, but going by things discussed on these boards and elsewhere, it's a common obstacle for many people when they first come to terms with their own trans status. I think many people, for the most part, manage to overcome it or at least make peace with themselves, but often not without time or some sort of advice or support.

Before I came out to myself,  I was very open minded about others people's gender identity and sexuality,  but held myself to a completely different standard,  though I still don't really know why. It was this that kept me in denial and clossested for so long.
That I was deviant, that I did not deserve to be happy,  and that others came first; these feelings took me a LONG time to overcome.
I won't say I've beaten them fully (never will),  but I recognise them,  and can live with them rather than be ruled by them.

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Quote from: meganjames2 on September 15, 2017, 11:34:19 AM
Before I came out to myself,  I was very open minded about others people's gender identity and sexuality,  but held myself to a completely different standard,  though I still don't really know why. It was this that kept me in denial and clossested for so long.
That I was deviant, that I did not deserve to be happy,  and that others came first; these feelings took me a LONG time to overcome.
I won't say I've beaten them fully (never will),  but I recognise them,  and can live with them rather than be ruled by them.

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

That's pretty insightful of you to know yourself that well. Our own spiritual growth can be some of the most amazing moments we have in life.

I completely understand you saying about deserving to be happy and others coming first... I myself have the caregivers heart which makes me an easy target... but knowing it makes all the difference, we truly may never win,  you're absolutely right but at least knowing gives us opportunities to develop new coping strategies.



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Kenzie I am glad you are here now, looking forward to seeing you around!

Kendra

Transphobia in general is conscious or subconscious devaluation of transgender people as human beings.  It is not usually expressed directly, although in this political season explicit examples abound.  More commonly it is cloaked...

a.  "I don't have anything against trans people, but I don't want to have to explain them to my children."

b.  "I've known you my whole life, so I'm still going to call you <deadname>."

c.  Greeting an MTF with a crushing handshake, or a FTM without one.[/li]

Trans people are not immune to transphobia, and usually begin transition with a ton of it, complicated by the perception that they can't possibly transphobic because they are trans themselves.  Some potential manifestations:

a.  Non-engagement with trans communities, for example reluctance to join a support group, or attending once, and saying, "I don't think it's worth it because there is no one like me there."

b.  100 FB posts on transgender rights, but no transgender friends.

c.  Stealth

Internalized transphobia is subconscious and often deeply enmeshed into one's thought processes.  It can be directly at self or others.  The person who has internalized transphobia often is the last to recognize it, and may thoroughly deny it, but not all denial is transphobic.  It is a way of thinking and cannot be eradicated simply by naming it, although naming it is an important step.  The most effective strategy to reduce it is to cultivate friendship with other transgender people.  Given that transphobia is cut from the same cloth as racism, sexism, classism, agism, etc, spending time in diversified spaces is also helpful.

I still have this to an extent. Like if I see a young child or person being allowed to live as the gender they say they are I think to myself; is that right as they're 'too young' or is that just me having absorbed the misinformation/judgement of other people.  Or if I see someone who identifies themself as nb I wonder if they're 'trans enough' But I then take a step back and remind myself people would freely judge me so I have no right to think that way and try my best to be more open minded

I think I am plagued by this a little bit. For example, I get hung up on the thought that I'll never be a "real woman" because I'll never menstruate, never have a uterus, didn't grow up as a girl, etc. But of course, these thoughts are nonsense. None of those things define women.

Occasionally, I think of some anthropologist digging up my skeleton in a hundred years' time and concluding that I was a man because of my bone structure. And then, that creeping voice in my head says, "Wouldn't they be right? Isn't this all really a lot of nonsense?" But most of the time, I recognise this thinking for the pile of balljuice that it is.

Perhaps what I've described doesn't fit into a scientific definition of "internalised transphobia", but I reckon it's along the same lines.

Quote from: meganjames2 on September 15, 2017, 11:34:19 AM
Before I came out to myself,  I was very open minded about others people's gender identity and sexuality,  but held myself to a completely different standard,  though I still don't really know why. It was this that kept me in denial and clossested for so long.
That I was deviant, that I did not deserve to be happy,  and that others came first; these feelings took me a LONG time to overcome.
I won't say I've beaten them fully (never will),  but I recognise them,  and can live with them rather than be ruled by them.

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

Megan... We are kindred spirits. Much of what you have experienced is so similar how i've approached life as an outsider seeking to fit in. Strength of mind if not body.

Speaking and examining this from the perspective of the "Chameleon" me, as well as the much younger shame and guilt riddled me, I have seen demonstrated time and time and time and time again just exactly what comes out of the mouths of guys (for sure) as well as women, when they feel safe and secure away from the PC Police, just exactly what they "Profess" to feel about "One of those". Now, I say profess, because of societal induced peer pressure. To be far, they all, just as I was, taught from on early age onward the appropriate response.

I know I internalized much of this mass hatred of those abhorrent things, not brave enough to even pretend to be gay, trying to fool perfectly "Normal" guys and sway them to the dark side of the force. I know, or was taught, just how BIG of a pariah I would be, IF ANYONE ever learned of my deep dark secret. Like others, I did my best to shield this secret from exposure by being the biggest, best or craziest "ideal" for acceptance and to ward off any possible closer examination of an inadvertent gender conforming/confirming slip up.

Today, after losing a TON of that shame and guilt about being trans, I do question if my internalized transphobia is just that? Or, is it being realistic?  In either case, it does tend to dictate some decisions these days. Not quite as much as my wife's concerns and our mutual desire to preserve "The Us" does

In the most traditional sense, I don't think I suffer from internalized transphobia in that I never had any directly negative thoughts about being transgender. Quite the opposite really, as I saw it as an amazing, hopeful thing in general that people could transcend their birth assignment. What I did (and still do to a degree) suffer from is low self esteem in terms of feeling that I would be unable to live up to idealized standards of what it means to be a woman. I don't know if this is technically transphobia or not, but it was certainly negative and led to my repression and dishonesty with myself. (Honestly though, I'm still piecing things together and most of my 20s us just sort of blurred into one big mess, so it's hard to pick out more singular thoughts I had regarding the subject.)

Crossdressing shame as a kid probably qualifies actually, but then I didn't have any real concepts of any of this at the time, and so it was just more of a generic shame because I believed it to be abnormal and didn't understand it rather than a thought that it was an act of being transgender and that being transgender was shameful. I think I would have felt differently if I had something to place it in context.

I personally think that including those of us that are "stealth" under your rubric of "internalized transphobia" is frankly quite hateful and demonstrates an exclusionary tendency which seems to negate the often stated claims of acceptance of diversity. Those of us who have lived our lives from the beginning, from before most of you were out of diapers, should not be subjected to the judgment of those who have no idea what our lives are like, despite paying huge amounts of lip service to how much they wished they could have "gone stealth".

I expected that entry might get a little pushback. 

I would be happy to clarify why I offered it as an example on the list and discuss it with you respectfully here, or in a spinoff thread.  Whether or not you wish to do so, however, please understand that while I question the wisdom of stealth as a strategy, I understand that we each get to make our own choices.  I don't hate people who have gone stealth, and though I have never paid an ounce of lip service to wishing I could have gone stealth, I would never exclude people who made that choice from anything if I had the power to do so, which of course, I don't. 

And, if you have been living your life from before I was out of diapers, my congratulations on your longevity.  May you continue to live long and prosper. ;)

I think the older we are the more of this baggage we're carrying around. I didn't think passing mattered to me, but I've discovered that it does. Sometimes I dream of moving after transition so that no one would know I was ever a man. I know that's just internalized transphobia working on me and I think that's what rmaddy's getting at. It's real, it's one of my biggest problems I'm dealing with now. Complete, transphobia is one of the reasons some of us didn't transition long ago. You overcame the fear and was able to overcome the other obstacles and live our dream!

Hi rmaddy and thank you for being so reasonable. For me, being seen and respected as the woman l am is/was not a strategy. It was a simple matter of survival. Just as l accept and can love those who are different than me, l am thankful that you too are of the same open mindedness. What l found hateful was putting it in the same hate filled category as sexism and racism.
Dani. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those who are attempting transition at an older age. There is no question in my mind that there are issues involved of which l haven't even the faintest inkling of what that must be like. I can only imagine that all the fears and hurdles that l faced must be even greater.
Personally l think that the term transphobia is very difficult to define in a way that all can agree on. Fear and hatred of being  trans Is the obvious way. But then what is trans? In most cases that l have encountered,  it is whatever anyone wants to say it is.

Quote from: Complete on September 17, 2017, 05:07:46 PM
Hi rmaddy and thank you for being so reasonable. For me, being seen and respected as the woman l am is/was not a strategy. It was a simple matter of survival. Just as l accept and can love those who are different than me, l am thankful that you too are of the same open mindedness. What l found hateful was putting it in the same hate filled category as sexism and racism.

Whoa!  If I said that, then I was wrong, and I apologize.  What I did say is that transphobia is cut from the same cloth as the  other "isms".  The sorts of things that I said were potential manifestations of transphobia included a half dozen things, many of which have shown up in my own thinking over the years.  I see risk for internalized transphobia in stealth, but I also see it in other experiences with which I have had more personal experience.  Transphobia is something we all potentially have to root out of our consciousness.

I don't know that I have any internalized transphobia towards myself, once I figured it out, I was like "great, now I know what's wrong. Lets fix it." But I definitely had some internalized (meaning unspoken, didn't realize what it was) transphobia.

If anyone happened across and remembers (I know Devlyn probably will) my first post ever (albeit from when I was a naive little thing that didn't know anything about the world), I dealt with this on a pretty big scale. I couldn't comprehend the concept of another trans person that felt differently about their body then how I felt about mine, and accept that they were also trans.
Sometimes, I think I still battle with some form of it. It terrified me yesterday to be out with A. (to catch you up- transwoman, girlfriend, presented yesterday for the first time (still can't convince her to come to Susan's)), because I was scared of how people here might react to/ towards her. I caught myself thinking about how I would almost have rathered her not present because of that.
Logically, I know that's crazy. She needs to dress and act the way she feels is right for her- just like I do when I wear a shirt and tie on Sundays, and do everything I possibly can to avoid looking like a female in my uniform.

I think I was more scared FOR her than anything else. I don't worry about myself, but I was extremely worried about her and I'm pretty sure I had more nerves about it than she did. I don't know if it was because I don't care if someone beats me up, but if they touched her I might just rip their head off, or if its because she's so much more obvious than I am. There was no questioning it with her- people knew after one look, whereas with me, I look more andro and people are more confused than anything else. Maybe it's a bit of both. Maybe if we were somewhere like San Fran or Colorado I wouldn't have had as much of an internal problem with it.

That could also just be a problem with me caring too much about what other people think, though.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 16, 2017, 11:26:30 AM
c.  Stealth

Stealth being what? The deliberate "hiding" of one's trans status, or simply keeping one's private business to oneself?

It needs to be defined here before you can even begin to associate it with potential transphobia. The word itself is unfortunate in that it implies deception or sneakiness. In reality, is a trans person "stealth" if they just haven't declared to all and sundry that they are a trans individual? Am I stealth if every time time I interact with someone else I just happen not to let them know my medical history? Most average interactions won't even have an appropriate opening or purpose for mentioning anything like it.

And even if this is the case, how is stealth more a reflection of some internal negativity toward being trans than a matter of practical self protection? I don't know about anyone else here but I imagine most of us are no more keen advertise our sexual habits or show off our bodies to the average person than we would our trans status. It is, obviously, a matter crossing into the territory of personal privacy, and guarding that is actually not a manifestation of anything negative unless you're going to criticize society itself for the fact it expects these things to be private. These things have a tendency to be kept private in order to afford individuals more freedom with them. All human societies developed privacy laws of various degrees relating to aspects of sex and gender, and being trans can easily fall under the umbrella of them.

Rmaddy more pushback here. I don't need trans friends as proof of my acceptance of trans people, nor do I need to engage the community or support groups. That said, I've done stuff with the larger LGBT community on and off for 20 years but most of that wasn't about trans issues, rather I was involved with the leathersex community and to some extent in random issues within that community.

On the other hand I've been out with anyone I'm close to for nearly that long while maintaining a closeted approach to people I know to be harmful to me. Now of course, I'm out to the world with the exception of my entirely toxic family and people who would be likely to out me to them.

Quote from: Complete on September 16, 2017, 10:05:28 PM
I personally think that including those of us that are "stealth" under your rubric of "internalized transphobia" is frankly quite hateful and demonstrates an exclusionary tendency which seems to negate the often stated claims of acceptance of diversity. Those of us who have lived our lives from the beginning, from before most of you were out of diapers, should not be subjected to the judgment of those who have no idea what our lives are like, despite paying huge amounts of lip service to how much they wished they could have "gone stealth".

Thank you, Complete for adding your thoughts to this. When I first read Maddy's comments I was a bit taken aback myself but didn't comment because it is obvious that some don't fully recognize the lives and experiences of those of us that do fall outside of what seems to be the most common narrative around here and I didn't want to be a lone voice poking the bear.

I started HRT before my senior year of high school and finished social transition upon graduation in 1973. I never learned how to boy and I've certainly never lived as or been a man and quite frankly, being visibly trans back then wasn't really an option in conjunction with having any sort of normal life or even getting medical treatment. Effectively, I've lived my entire adult life "in stealth" and as you said, this has not been a strategy but rather just the way things have been/are.

I also find the notion that those of us that don't wave flags or march in the streets because we can't deal with our own transsexuality to be specious and I find the attitude and pressure that those of us that are blended into society need to be out and visible moderately offensive and lacking in understanding of how life is for some of us.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 16, 2017, 11:26:30 AM

a.  Non-engagement with trans communities, for example reluctance to join a support group, or attending once, and saying, "I don't think it's worth it because there is no one like me there."

b.  100 FB posts on transgender rights, but no transgender friends.

c.  Stealth

I found all of these descriptors of internalized transphobia more than a little annoying.

First of all, I've never been to a support group, ever. There was no such thing during the time of my life I dealt with being trans and even if there had been and I attended one, there would have been "no one like me there". In 1970, being trans as a fifteen year old was hardly even recognized as a possibility and even in today's demographic, the majority of people going through transition are in their 30's, 40's and 50's with well established lives as men with careers and families so what would have been the point? Even on this forum there are very few like me which has nothing to do with internalized transphobia. It's more about being a statistical anomaly. Even the people I have found here "like me" that I can relate to and have made friends with are forty or more years younger.

So do I have "internalized transphobia"? About some things, maybe I do but it depends on a more nuanced definition of it beyond not having trans friends or being stealth. Just because I don't want people to know my private history, it doesn't mean I hate myself or am not fully cognizant where I came from. Being trans was part of my childhood and adolescence and quite frankly, putting it behind me as an adult is what has worked out best for me so applying your analysis and generalizations across the board just doesn't work that well, IMO.

Quote from: Viktor on September 17, 2017, 09:04:49 PM
Stealth being what? The deliberate "hiding" of one's trans status, or simply keeping one's private business to oneself?

Thank you for asking.  The former.

I did not have in mind the man or woman here who, because he transitioned early in life, or because she transitioned long ago, or because they naturally tended through genetics or aptitude for the process, is not easily recognized as trans.  Some transfolk are simply less recognizable as transfolk, and how or when they disclose is their own business.

I did not have in mind the person who does his or her best not to be noticed because in the context of their society being noticed is tantamount to a death sentence.

I had in mind the poor souls who are so terrified that anyone will recognize them as transgender that they delay transition, move out of town, quit a job, cut themselves off from family and friends and otherwise add to their misery because they think being trans is less than being cis.  I had in mind those who insist that they aren't transgender because they have transitioned.  I had in mind those who think gorgeous women or tall powerful men or women are worth being.

I don't hate those on this path.  I have compassion for them.  I recognize that they are still struggling with something.

Let's not over think this! Society's been putting crap in our heads since the day we were born. It's like dust filtering in, sometimes you have to clean it out. If I could have transitioned when I should have it would have been to be the wife of my best friend. Call it stealth or what ever, but that was the time when I just wanted to be a woman with all of my heart. It just didn't work out for me at that time. If I could have done what Lisa K and others did I wouldn't have advertised it either. In the 70's you just didn't do that if you wanted to live. Them comes the 80's and AIDs, sex with a pre-op MTF=GAY=Leper. This is the kind of things that lurk in the back our minds with those of us with some miles on us. We don't think about it anymore, but it's there, and it whispers at us in a blue moon. Beware of pointing fingers, some people have good reasons to hide.

Definition:   The fear of acknowledgement or acceptance, or dislike of one's self as transgender.

Yes, i do, or did.  Intellectually i finally accepted i was trans, so was done with denial.  but then had anger and sadness.  one of the reasons for the long term denial was that i didn't want to be what i believed were weirdos and or perverts.  I hated the thought of it, and therefore by extension, that part of myself.  i went through a dark period of really contemplating what the point of it all was, and the. worked through it.  So now i accept i'm tg, likely ts, always have been, and probably won't pass.  I'm slowly becoming ok with that.

ashley's analogy of climbing the mountain and some can't make the journey with me,
has helped.

Quote from: Another Nikki on September 17, 2017, 11:53:14 PM
Definition:   The fear of acknowledgement or acceptance, or dislike of one's self as transgender.

Drunk and high right now (and I have the hiccups) and should be nowhere near a keyboard but...

Is dislike of one's self as being transgender considered internalized transphobia because I effing hate that being trans is a part of my history and that it was something I had to go through that was wrong from the beginning that was completely out of my control? As Julia1996 said in this thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,168889.msg2026881.html#msg2026881 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,168889.msg2026881.html#msg2026881) being trans sucks a$$. I have a lot of resentment about this.

All the sh!t I had to go through, through elementary and high school is something no one should have to endure and if I could go back and change those years or if I could pretend they weren't a part of my history, I'd do so in a heartbeat. Talk about PTSD? I've been through a lot to be accepted as the girl/woman I've always been and while journeys like mine are often idealized, let me tell you that being trans as a kid is no picnic, especially in the 1960's and early 1970's as was my experience.

As an adult female, or as female as medical science can make me, it sucks that I feel obligated to disclose my T to intimate partners to have any sort of meaningful relationship. I hate that not being born female is something I have to deal with or that I grew up as a gender atypical, perceived to be gay boy until I was 18. I hate that my vagina is aftermarket equipment and that I wasn't born with it and it requires maintenance beyond what natal females have to deal with. Even with 40+ years of life after SRS (I was 22) and complete assimilation as just an ordinary cisgender gal into society at large, it still pisses me off to be trans.

The thought of being known as trans is kind of dreadful to me. It assumes I was ever a man/boy in the first place which I've never been and I hate that visual image that it paints in people's minds if they know I wasn't born female. If you'd have known me when I was 16, you'd have perceived me as a girl, behaviorally, psychologically as well as physically because by then I was way beyond androgynous. As a teenager, then young adult and as a fully actualized woman that has lived a full adult life as such, being trans as part of my history is like a noose around my neck.

Is it any wonder I would like to avoid this? If this is internalized transphobia, then count me in.

Outwardly I've always been very accepting of everyone but I have definitely had a few occasions when I've had a voice inside my head screaming at me because I'm all wrong and they aren't. And that feeling breeds a lot more self loathing and then a viscous cycle ensues.

Molly

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Quote from: Another Nikki on September 17, 2017, 11:53:14 PM
Definition:   The fear of acknowledgement or acceptance, or dislike of one's self as transgender.

Okay, misunderstood the definition in my first reply.
Still think I have a touch of it, though, as I do sometimes hate the fact that I'm trans, rather than just being born in the body I should have had. It makes life more complicated than it needs to be, especially in the climate right now. I hate that this part of me could cause me to lose my job, be denied 'privileges' at church that cis people pretty much have as a right, or be affected by the (outward) transphobia that is pretty much a social norm right now, in some places.
But I also accept that it's a part of me, and I know that I will do what I have to in order to be and feel okay. Becoming/ remaining mentally and emotionally healthy is just as important as being physically healthy. It's just one more challenge that I will face in this life, and overcome in my own time.

I'm not really sure I can call what I think as internalized transphobia. I have identified as transgender for 10 years and been on HRT for 2 months and I've never gone out of the house even trying to look female and I feel I will never be able to make myself go full time until HRT has done enough for me to be passable. This isn't so much a fear of being identified as transgender, more a fear of what the worst possible outcome will be. Even before I identified as transgender I was always very sensitive and did not act very boyish if at all. This lead me to be bullied, often time violently, by homophobes who just assumed I was gay throughout my entire time in school up until high-school where I had just learned to keep myself apart from everyone. In the military I have had second-hand experience of transphobia leading to murder multiple times. So, between the physical violence I endured and being indirectly involved in murder cases related to transphobia, every time I get dressed and ready to go out in public I'm just overcome with fear if I see anything that makes me believe I'll be noticed or singled out. There are time I wish I was just a ->-bleeped-<- and then I could go out in public and not care what the bigots say because while people may be uncomfortable with ->-bleeped-<-s, most do not assume they are trying to trick them. In my experience being identified as transgender can easily be life-threatening because some extreme homophobes see it as us trying to trick them into being gay. Maybe you would call that internalized transphobia but I believe it is more a fear of what the worst of humanity will do to me. If I was in a place where I knew I was safe I would come out as transgender in an instant.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 16, 2017, 11:26:30 AM

a.  Non-engagement with trans communities, for example reluctance to join a support group, or attending once, and saying, "I don't think it's worth it because there is no one like me there."

This is me. But the thing is, here in my city the only support group that I know of, is organized by the local LGBT center and...It caters to prostitutes, trans people who have a harder time, who didn't finish high school, ran away from home etc...You know what I mean. And seeing that is super triggering for me, I already feel undesirable at times, and completely insane for doing this. I don't need to get even more negative feelings by witnessing the reality of many trans girls who had less opportunities.

I am also still disliking being trans. I think I'm past the denial, mostly, I know I am trans and can't go back and say I am not and that I am confused...cuz I know it's not true. I just want to move past this point to completely accepting myself and hopefully someday like myself as a trans feminine person.

Well, ok, but it's quite possible that you will only like yourself as a transperson after you have liked someone else as a transperson.  Even self-love requires practice and reference.

@rmaddy sure I can see that POV. Thing is I arrived at recognizing I'm trans at the same time I was learning to be healthy as a human first and breaking down what I could as the essence of being gender x vs y. So one thing I don't love about males on average is aggressiveness. However I don't like that in women any better and I feel the same about passive aggressive behaviors - arguably more common among women. In this case to me healthy means assertive vs aggressive.

That's just one dimension, and there's so many dimensions.

I probably know more trans people than many folks and mostly I encountered them in the course of activism. Just a couple I met along the way and they eventually outed themselves to me (I never read them, even though there were some tells). I'm sure there have been many incidental meetings I don't know about.

To me the essence of not being phobic (i.e. prejudiced) is simply accepting people at face value. That means myself as much as others.

I am having trouble making sense of all the different definitions of transphobia. So l Googled it and got this from HealthLine :  A phobia is an excessive and irrational fear reaction. If you have a phobia, you may experience a deep sense of dread or panic when you encounter the source of your fear. The fear can be of a certain place, situation, or object. Unlike general anxiety disorders, a phobia is usually connected to something specific."
So. Based on this definition, l am happily free of any internalized "transphobia ".
On the otherhand, Wikipedia defines "transphobia" as follows:  Transphobia is a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions toward transgender or transsexual people, or toward transsexuality. Transphobia can be emotional disgust, fear, violence, anger or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to society's gender expectations."
The problem with Wikipedia is that anyone can write the definition. So it seems like a self fulfilling prophecy. Those who suffer from the condition,  define it.
The good news that l do not suffer from this affliction either 😊

Quote from: Complete on September 18, 2017, 09:34:11 PM
I am having trouble making sense of all the different definitions of transphobia. So l Googled it and got this from HealthLine :  A phobia is an excessive and irrational fear reaction. If you have a phobia, you may experience a deep sense of dread or panic when you encounter the source of your fear. The fear can be of a certain place, situation, or object. Unlike general anxiety disorders, a phobia is usually connected to something specific."

Many uses of the -phobia suffix now are not particularly accurate from a textbook definition, but it is such common terminology it could be said the textbooks have simply failed to keep up with culture as definitions change. (Which is an accepted facet of language.) Though I would say transphobia can be taken a little more literal than most, as there are common instances relating to irrational fears about being "tricked" or similar things. (In comparison, any instance of literal homophobia is almost coincidental, as the dominant emotion is more often hatred than fear.) Of course you could also apply the -phobia labels more literally to those who fear that LGBT activism is bringing about a change in society/culture, but I think that might be its own phobia entirely. A quick google brought up Metathesiophobia, but I'm not sure how specific that is.

As you can see in my avatar [yes that's me] I don't pass in any way, shape, or form. I've waited long enough because or for others. I'm not waiting anymore. Trans phobia be damned, and I do have my share of it. It's not going to own me anymore! Surprisingly 99% of the people I know or have met out and about have been fine with it. When I finally got some women's clothes and wore them in public I was terrified. Once I did it and didn't die from it I couldn't wear my men's clothes any more! That was a real situation because I'd rather have gasoline poured me than wear them ever again. So I've just had to get past the fear, not so easy for me. It may not look it in my avatar but when I was a teen I was very feminine and got picked on EVERYDAY. That lingers with me to this very day. I also know that some problems have passed me by, also the good things of being young. I don't have to be 'pretty' now, don't have to worry with dating :(. That's where phobia hurts the worst, it makes you afraid to go out, afraid your constantly in danger. From all I've seen and heard the real danger is in our own minds, and when intimate with a guy. The most danger comes if your pre-op and he finds out the hard way, you might die then, violently.  But out in pubic you'll get some stares or funny looks and a few people will avoid you, but most ignore it. Internalized transphobia has been the hardest for me to deal with not other people. I didn't even realize I had any until I started my journey. One thing that has helped me a lot is knowing what a phobia is and how they get mis-named. A phobia is a fear, what we deal with is disgust. We're not afraid of ourselves, we're disgusted with our selves. A spider crawls across the floor: A- you step on it B- you run away  A- is disgust, you clean it up B- is phobia, you run away. Disgust is what we have to deal with not phobia. People that are disgusted want to kill and clean-up, including our own selves and that's where suicide comes into it. The hard part to get past is not being disgusted with your own self. What you don't like in others you wont like in your own self. Once you get past that you can come out and live! It's wonderful out here  ;D

I'd like to add an addendum to my rather intoxicated post/rant above so people don't get the wrong idea. I am a happy person and I've had a really remarkable life. The things I wrote focused on the parts of being trans that I dislike but this is only an infinitesimally small part of my thought processes and something well below my normal level of consciousness unless I do stop to think about it as this thread made me do.

I acknowledge how very fortunate I've been and to have had supportive and understanding parents at a time in history when such things were practically unheard of. I was incredibly lucky to start hormones at 17 and it has been a life saving blessing to have lived my entire adult life on my own terms. Being trans has not held me back in any way, shape or form and in fact has afforded me a wealth of opportunities and good fortune that otherwise would not have been possible.

While there is undoubtedly some baggage that comes along with being trans, even for someone like me that transitioned as a teenager, the alternatives were much worse and there's little question I would still be around today had things not turned out for me the way they did.

I have nothing to whine about. Yes, at times I do have some negative emotions about it and at times have questioned why I just wasn't born female or why I had to go through any of this but overall in the grand scheme of things, I couldn't be happier or more content with the life I've had.

I'll make a mental note to myself to not post again after spending an evening at the pub because it's too easy to give the wrong impression although being to air my feelings and examine them in the daylight made them seem kind of silly and inconsequential. I still don't like being trans but this is internalized and self-contained as it is not something people know about me, however, I wouldn't go so far as to call this transphobia. That seems a bit extreme.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 18, 2017, 08:02:54 PM
Well, ok, but it's quite possible that you will only like yourself as a transperson after you have liked someone else as a transperson.  Even self-love requires practice and reference.

I do have a couple of friends who are trans. But in all honestly I don't identify with them much, I feel like the fact that we are both trans isn't enough to form a close relationship unless you have other things in common.


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Lisa, my rant was pointed at the younger ones who don't have a clue what it was like back then. We all have to rant every now and then, and a drunken rant's the best! Charlie Nicki, you've got it! You don't have to be close, and their being trans doesn't matter, you'll be fine with your own self. My problem's been anger at myself for not finding a way to get where I needed to 40yrs. ago. It only helps a little to know that things were so bad a home then that being trans was a side issue.

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 19, 2017, 03:04:49 AM
I'd like to add an addendum to my rather intoxicated post/rant above so people don't get the wrong idea. I am a happy person and I've had a really remarkable life. The things I wrote focused on the parts of being trans that I dislike but this is only an infinitesimally small part of my thought processes and something well below my normal level of consciousness unless I do stop to think about it as this thread made me do.

I acknowledge how very fortunate I've been and to have had supportive and understanding parents at a time in history when such things were practically unheard of. I was incredibly lucky to start hormones at 17 and it has been a life saving blessing to have lived my entire adult life on my own terms. Being trans has not held me back in any way, shape or form and in fact has afforded me a wealth of opportunities and good fortune that otherwise would not have been possible.

While there is undoubtedly some baggage that comes along with being trans, even for someone like me that transitioned as a teenager, the alternatives were much worse and there's little question I would still be around today had things not turned out for me the way they did.

I have nothing to whine about. Yes, at times I do have some negative emotions about it and at times have questioned why I just wasn't born female or why I had to go through any of this but overall in the grand scheme of things, I couldn't be happier or more content with the life I've had.

I'll make a mental note to myself to not post again after spending an evening at the pub because it's too easy to give the wrong impression although being to air my feelings and examine them in the daylight made them seem kind of silly and inconsequential. I still don't like being trans but this is internalized and self-contained as it is not something people know about me, however, I wouldn't go so far as to call this transphobia. That seems a bit extreme.

I read both your "pub post" and this one, and I think they both made valid points.

As I tend to verbally process, I usually read the posts of others as if that is what they are doing as well.  Each post represents a mental snapshot of which the total picture is composed.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on September 19, 2017, 06:17:59 AM
I do have a couple of friends who are trans. But in all honestly I don't identify with them much, I feel like the fact that we are both trans isn't enough to form a close relationship unless you have other things in common.


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Of course you don't have to be friends with people just because they are transgender.  The benefit of transgender friendships is that we see reflections of ourselves in others.  My best transgender friend is someone with whom I share a philosophical/intellectual bent, but otherwise, we don't have any common interests.  Nevertheless, the fact that she is transgender means that she understands something that almost no one else in my social circles does.  It's hard to put a value on that.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 19, 2017, 05:06:34 PM

Of course you don't have to be friends with people just because they are transgender.  The benefit of transgender friendships is that we see reflections of ourselves in others.  My best transgender friend is someone with whom I share a philosophical/intellectual bent, but otherwise, we don't have any common interests.  Nevertheless, the fact that she is transgender means that she understands something that almost no one else in my social circles does.  It's hard to put a value on that.

I feel like being trans is a road that you go through alone. Cis people don't really get it, and even if you meet a trans person, chances are that their road was completely different than yours and they're either ahead or behind. It's very rare to find someone who is in the exact same stage you are. Finally, if you are lucky enough to find all of that, then it comes down to personality and if you 2 can relate. So yeah it's mostly each one of us writing our own story.

Very different than being any other letter of the LGBT community, I say that as someone who has lived as a gay man for 15 years. You just have to go to a club, or to an app, or even to someone's house and you can very easily find someone who shares your struggles, fears, interests, etc...


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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on September 19, 2017, 05:47:04 PM

Very different than being any other letter of the LGBT community, I say that as someone who has lived as a gay man for 15 years. You just have to go to a club, or to an app, or even to someone's house and you can very easily find someone who shares your struggles, fears, interests, etc...

I'll take your word for it, but it surprises me that it is different for you.  If this is too personal, please ignore or tell me so:

Do you think that is because there are simply more gay men around so that you are bound to run into one with matched interests, or is the sense of identification stronger in you the case of sexual orientation? 

Quote from: rmaddy on September 19, 2017, 06:03:08 PM
I'll take your word for it, but it surprises me that it is different for you.  If this is too personal, please ignore or tell me so:

Do you think that is because there are simply more gay men around so that you are bound to run into one with matched interests, or is the sense of identification stronger in you the case of sexual orientation?

The first one. There is simply more gay men. I went to school with 15 gay boys... we weren't out but within time all of us came out. And then when I went to college I met more gay guys like me and then I started going to gay clubs, it was also the same. You have so many options to choose from that of course you will find a lot of people who share your interests.

I've met around 4 or 5 transgender females (half of them through my therapist) in my life and I do keep in touch with them but not a single one of them I can call my real friend yet.

Also, I think sexual orientation isn't as taboo as gender identity. People can easily talk about liking men or women but not about feeling like a different gender.


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Quote from: Dani2118 on September 17, 2017, 10:50:17 PM
Let's not over think this! Society's been putting crap in our heads since the day we were born. It's like dust filtering in, sometimes you have to clean it out. If I could have transitioned when I should have it would have been to be the wife of my best friend. Call it stealth or what ever, but that was the time when I just wanted to be a woman with all of my heart. It just didn't work out for me at that time. If I could have done what Lisa K and others did I wouldn't have advertised it either. In the 70's you just didn't do that if you wanted to live. Them comes the 80's and AIDs, sex with a pre-op MTF=GAY=Leper. This is the kind of things that lurk in the back our minds with those of us with some miles on us. We don't think about it anymore, but it's there, and it whispers at us in a blue moon. Beware of pointing fingers, some people have good reasons to hide.

I think there a lot of wisdom here, well worth some thought. Rather than look for more problems by creating things to worry about,  why not look for solutions?  A phobia is an irrational or unfounded fear, not a set of negative feelings or thoughts. Try thinking about the original question posed: do you suffer from internalized transport transphobia? In order to do that, you would have to be irrational by definition. If you are suffering from negative thoughts and feelings, then that is another matter altogether.
LisaK, l am glad you have recovered from you pub-phobia.

Quote from: Charlie Nicki on September 19, 2017, 06:50:28 PM


Also, I think sexual orientation isn't as taboo as gender identity. People can easily talk about liking men or women but not about feeling like a different gender.

Hopefully, that will improve with time.  Still, I think the addition level taboo that you identify is a manifestation of societal transphobia.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 19, 2017, 05:06:34 PM
...Nevertheless, the fact that she is transgender means that she understands something that almost no one else in my social circles does.  It's hard to put a value on that.

I think this thought is almost worthy of its own discussion? (and probably should be)

My guess is that this person has an experience of being trans that is roughly similar to your own and it is those commonalities that drive that level of understanding? I do recognize the value of this type of connection but it is one that has been elusive for me. It has only been within the last two years of my life that I realized finding this level of unspoken understanding is important and when I did unexpectedly find it, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

Growing up, there was nobody like me. In high school, there was an obvious clique of swishy (sorry for the less than PC antiquated descriptor) boys but I was nothing like them in looks or manner and they wanted nothing to do with me. Yet because I had super long hair, pierced ears, shaved legs and was androgynously femme which wasn't a thing back then, everybody else thought I was gay and those that were gay thought I was way too queer or maybe it was I wasn't camp enough or something? I had no peers or confidantes other than the unconventionally funky but cool therapist that helped me keep things together through some of my more difficult times.

At any rate, once my folks and I had a name for what was going on with me after being officially diagnosed at 17, that was only further isolating because the only trans people anybody had heard about were Christine Jorgensen or maybe Jan Morris and they were nothing like me either. I was just a kid from Podunk with no sensational before and after that just somehow grew up and grew into being a girl. How strange was that? How weird was I? I know it felt like I was the only one.

I had never met or spoken to another real live trans person until I was 22 and checked into the hospital for SRS. They weren't like me either but I did make a friend and someone I communicated with for several years as pen pals. She was in her mid to late 50's but her struggles were so much different than mine. On a basic level, we had both been down the same road so there was some degree of that nebulous connectedness and on that level, I can have a good understanding of many here but there were/are things that just didn't fully click or resonate. After she suddenly passed away, I drifted fully into the cisnormative world, got married and never had anything to do with trans or LGB anything other than a lesbian couple I knew that have turned out to be lifelong friends that I consider my family. (I have no siblings, parents, relatives or children)

Then I had my awakening. With a chance online encounter nearly two years ago in somewhere completely unexpected, I finally did meet "someone like me" and it made me realize that connection/understanding was something I didn't know I had been missing. So many things in our childhood experiences and memories mirrored one another. She had grown up like I did dealing with parents and schools and doctors and crap. Knowing her brought many things long repressed or unacknowledged to the surface and I began to examine some of this trans stuff in my own life from many years in my past because I had never really talked with someone that did understand on that higher level. It changed the way I feel about myself and helped me get over some of my own hangups about being trans i.e. internalized transphobia because I had always felt so all alone in all of this and no longer was. I would have never joined a forum like this if she hadn't brought me out of my shell, so to speak.

Like me she is, but not. I am exactly 40 years older. She socially transitioned before high school. In spite of my outward persona and presentation, I had to wait until I graduated but still, that special connectedness was there because of our strong commonalities. I've given up hope of finding someone my own age with a path and history like mine because I'm convinced that few exist. Since joining this forum not too many months ago, I've met exactly two people I feel that type of connection with and they are 19 and 20 and really just kids but they were kids like I was that are going to grow up and have a life like I've had and that makes a difference even though I could be a grandmother to both of them.

So to wrap up this off topic 2:00 AM ramble that I wrote without even drinking (!), while the value having a trans friend that really does understand and instinctively gets it may be kind of hard to measure, for me anyway, I would have to weight that as pretty significant. It's better than living in a vacuum and I think it's pretty basic human nature to seek out others that are like ourselves.

Apologies for the wall of text and side track. I just felt like writing and sharing some of the perspectives of an all grown up and grown old trans youth because they seem to be so rarely heard. Over the course of my lifetime the whole trans thing was kind of a blip but like the hidden roots of a tree silently holding things up, a blip that still manages to have its influences. I've learned to be okay with that, mostly.

Quote from: Complete on September 19, 2017, 08:44:45 PM
LisaK, l am glad you have recovered from you pub-phobia.

Pub-phobia? Me? As one of the world's most interesting women, I don't always drink beer but when I do... I get all philosophical and foam at the keyboard.  :D

Can't really say what my excuse is for this post though?  ::)

Lisa, beautifully put, thanks. My local bff is a trans woman also, came out as young as you did but as you say, 40 years later.

This isn't guaranteed, but it's safe to say she simply gets stuff. Like when I decided to start hrt a couple of years ago I confided in exactly two people besides of course pshrink and healthcare providers. One was a close cis friend J who I knew would be accepting and keep my confidences. The other was my bff H.

The difference was even though J knew me better and is one of the least judgemental people I know he reacted strongly to my not telling my GF ahead of time. H, on the other hand understood right off that I needed space to figure out my own response to being on estrogen without the michegas that I knew would accompany the eventual conversation with my GF.

Then again with H, I'm careful to not assume we're on the same page. We often aren't and we have very different experiences and triggers.

Conversely my pshrink had no particular experience with trans people before working with me and so I feel I've had to educate her some along the way. Yet when we needed to contact another therapist for my 2nd required evaluation letter for GCS we of course contacted a woman who specialized in trans issues.

Well love and behold, pshrink #2 while fundamentally more clueful more or less treated me like a number, misgenders me after having insisted that I choose preferred pronouns (at that time I was still very much on the fence about where I'd land). She even sent me a draft of the eventual surgery letter that still had someone else's name in it, so clearly a copy/paste job and yet billed me for an hour of her time for doing that :-(.

Now pshrink 2 was clearly not the least transphobic, however it felt to me she was forcing her responses and interactions with me. As someone who clearly isn't passing for male, I fully expect some gender dissonance in my every day reality. And yet my GF (who initially very much resisted medical transition), my pshrink and a bunch of younger friends who simply grew up not making so many assumptions as most older people do are all simply comfortable around who I am.

I think LisaK has been very fortunate to have found someone with whom she can relate, who shares some experience similar to hers. I have yet to find someone like that. Even  LisaK and l, despite having made our change at roughly the same time and age, are world's apart in our experiences. Unlike  LisaK,  l was not overly girly nor did l have the benefit of an early diagnosis by someone that had even the remotest idea of what was going on.
Nevertheless l knew l would grow up to be who l am. In my case, l would have to admit that it was quite simplistic miracle that things worked out as well as they did. Somehow what needed to happen, happened. The people that l needed to help me were found. I can only attribute this to the grace of God.
Honestly, l have no bitterness or regret. Sure, it would have been easier if l had been born without this rather inconvenient and significant mismatch,  but then things are as they are and l have no complaints.
I often wonder what a conversation in person would be like with LisaK. I imagine it would quickly move away from our distant past to more contemporary things like the sorry state of our world in general,  or maybe on how we could actually make things better.

Quote from: Complete on September 20, 2017, 04:07:18 PM
I think LisaK has been very fortunate to have found someone with whom she can relate, who shares some experience similar to hers.

After sixty years of life, this is something I never felt would happen, wasn't anything planned and was not something I was really looking for. That's why it took me so much by surprise and had such an impact. How it all kind of transcended our generational differences and what one would think would be a mentor type relationship because I am so much older and more experienced is still something I don't fully understand. I learned much more from her than she did from me.

QuoteI have yet to find someone like that.

Complete, I maybe more than anyone knows how this feels. Even though I feel pretty closely bonded with this friend of mine through our childhood similarities, there are still a few vast differences that make this less than the perfect one-to-one pairing but it is as close as I've ever come. She was among the first crop of kids in this country to go on puberty blockers and transitioned before high school. She did not have to face unwanted physical changes, the brutal and in my case violent schoolyard bullying and social ostracization, nor did she have to figure out and fund the SRS she had at 17. We do have a lot of differences when it comes right down to it but like in horseshoes and hand grenades, close enough has been good enough.

QuoteEven  LisaK and l, despite having made our change at roughly the same time and age, are world's apart in our experiences. Unlike  LisaK,  l was not overly girly nor did l have the benefit of an early diagnosis by someone that had even the remotest idea of what was going on.

Don't discount the things we do have in common. We're still some of the most experienced old-timers around these parts and just because of the way things were and the things we went through in the 70's, I do see you as somewhat of a kindred spirit that knows what things were like back in the dark ages. That counts for something. I'm sure there are at least some stories we could swap that we couldn't with others that didn't live through these times even though you were a few years ahead of me.

While true I had been very obviously different from the beginning, never had any sort of a normal boyhood and was socially very different as a child and teen, we still managed to get things taken care of early in life when such things were barely possible or on the fringe. As far as professionals without a clue, my folks first took me for help in 1965 when I was ten years old which turned out to be an on-going thing especially when I hit junior high. It wasn't until seven years later and countless hours of talking to head doctors and being poked and prodded that I did see someone that had a clue that diagnosed me as transsexual at 17. Early? Maybe by the standards of the day but it didn't seem like it after the years of crap I had already been through. I was the youngest person this team had ever dealt with which only put me under further scrutiny. I got hormones and what I wanted and they did help my folks with their concerns but I was still an anomaly at the time because kids just didn't do this sort of thing or have these sort of problems.

QuoteNevertheless l knew l would grow up to be who l am. In my case, l would have to admit that it was quite simplistic miracle that things worked out as well as they did. Somehow what needed to happen, happened. The people that l needed to help me were found. I can only attribute this to the grace of God.

Miracles, yes for me too but perhaps without the religious underpinnings. That and a lot of happenstance and things that just fell against the odds randomly in my favor. I owe so much to the compassion of my parents that I'm still not convinced weren't aliens or travelers from the future because they were so much ahead of the times and put up with a lot of crap because of me. This had to be pure luck or karma or something but they kept me alive and got me through the worst of it.

QuoteHonestly, l have no bitterness or regret. Sure, it would have been easier if l had been born without this rather inconvenient and significant mismatch,  but then things are as they are and l have no complaints.

I tend to kvetch from time to time in introspective moments as my post pub adventure indicates but like you said, things are what they are but it's up to the individual to perceive them as positives or negatives. I've chosen to be happy, have a good life and not sweat the small stuff. I do have a few minor niggles, who doesn't but in the big picture, I have no real complaints either (except maybe to be thinner and wealthy!).  :)

QuoteI often wonder what a conversation in person would be like with LisaK. I imagine it would quickly move away from our distant past to more contemporary things like the sorry state of our world in general,  or maybe on how we could actually make things better.

I think that would probably be interesting for the both of us although I'm sure we'd probably spend some time discussing the current state of trans world and how different that is before addressing the world in general. I'll PM you my email and maybe we can start there if you'd like?

That would be great. Sounds like fun.☺