i have been stealth almost a third of my life, i have read this article that says stealth is soul destroying. and i disaggree but as of late, with our political climate in America there is a defiant aspect to my psyche that tells me i should be out to help support the community. im worried i will destroy what i built. living stealth. will people feel like i lied to them? am i just going to throw all i worked so hard for? i have always tried to be strong and stand up for my fellow person but living stealth i feel like i have done the trans community an injustice. how do you feel about stealth? am i throwing my hard work away? how would i come out after i never disclosed my status? im in my early 30s.
thank you lil
Quote from: noitsbecky on October 08, 2017, 08:13:59 PM
i have been stealth almost a third of my life, i have read this article that says stealth is soul destroying. and i disaggree but as of late, with our political climate in America there is a defiant aspect to my psyche that tells me i should be out to help support the community. im worried i will destroy what i built. living stealth. will people feel like i lied to them? am i just going to throw all i worked so hard for? i have always tried to be strong and stand up for my fellow person but living stealth i feel like i have done the trans community an injustice. how do you feel about stealth? am i throwing my hard work away? how would i come out after i never disclosed my status? im in my early 30s.
thank you lil
Honestly I disagree 100% (actually agree with you..disagree with the whole soulstealing notion ) People don't need to know about my birth defect (and to be blunt it WAS a birth defect) that was fixed. If I was born with a bad lisp that got fixed, or had a bad scar that healed... or any other tragedy would I feel compelled to tell everyone I meet about it? MAYBE if we got really really close I might.. but even then?
We live in such a judgmental society that will automatically assume one thing, and completely close off any thought of anything else.. even the best meaning people do this; I think it is hardwired in our brains to do this, from the earliest traditions of human culture/society.
I live stealth, and it will stay that way. Feel free to out yourself to the world, but good luck with that... and I'd watch your back honestly because there are people being taught to hate now, people that will target you simply for being what you are.
Just my 2 cents worth, for what its worth.
Becky,
I would be amiss if I said that none of us have had stealth stage or stealth mode. I am in my mid-30's and just came out to everyone a few months back. No one told me they felt I betrayed them. They all told me that they saw there was something that I wouldn't completely be open to them about. Most understood that I had been hiding and overall accepted the fact that this was what I felt was right for me. It is never too late to come out as yourself. Ultimately, you have to be comfortable coming out and what does it mean for you in the future. Do you make some changes or none at all. We in the transgender community come in all shapes, forms, colors, and spectrums. You can still support the community as a whole without coming out. We allies all over that aren't trans necessarily. So I don't think you are doing anyone an injustice.
The issue is not being transgender in 2017, rather the issue is that the for lack of a better term "feminist millennials" or "college gender studies dropouts" have taken transgender terminology and used it as a way of pushing their current agendas. Indeed as someone who has been a part of politics and social sciences for over a two decades in Australia and Europe I can tell you very simply that until recently your average joe could give two hoots about who you are, as long as you do not do harm to others. Whereas now being trans* is now seen as a political statement akin to black lives matter or antifa.
Because of this alone I personally would not expose myself to unwarranted hatred or martyrdom to fuel the wanted needs off a bunch of extremist radical hate mongers.
/remember this is just my view and open to debate
I don't think being stealth is soul destroying at all. Having people hate you for something you have no choice in is what is soul destroying.
I am a great supporter of being proud and open to be the 3rd gender female. Stealth is more dangerous if you get caught in the USA. Its particularly dangerous if you are a mtf in the black community as they have the highest homicides rates. Im not an american but cant understand the hyprocracy of political correctness and not make the black community face, accept and correct this issue.
Quote from: warlockmaker on October 08, 2017, 09:38:06 PM
I am a great supporter of being proud and open to be the 3rd gender female. Stealth is more dangerous if you get caught in the USA. Its particularly dangerous if you are a mtf in the black community as they have the highest homicides rates. Im not an american but cant understand the hyprocracy of political correctness and not make the black community face, accept and correct this issue.
Well being out in the black community is probably just as bad as being stealth too in that regards... since I'm neither black nor pre op, to me its a bit of an odd comparison. Plus I'm intersexed, exactly what should I go spurting (multiple diagnosis, but ultimately sums up to the same thing.. born 'odd'.). ? Ultimately, to each their own. I've had enough of religious hate & persecution over the years from my own parents refusal to accept multiple things and glaringly obvious symptoms... based on their own perceived black & white world. I don't need to out myself to everyone to get even more of the same. However.. to each their own. This is what I feel is right for me.
Quote from: Julia1996 on October 08, 2017, 09:10:18 PM
I don't think being stealth is soul destroying at all. Having people hate you for something you have no choice in is what is soul destroying.
Preach. Though I think it does come with a bit of an added anxiety that you might be outed someway, somehow.
Quote from: noitsbecky on October 08, 2017, 08:13:59 PM
... but as of late, with our political climate in America there is a defiant aspect to my psyche that tells me i should be out to help support the community. im worried i will destroy what i built. living stealth.
There are certain factions in the transgender and other activists community promoting this "out and proud" mentality as part of their mantra and there does seem to be the popular opinion that those that do live their lives privately somehow "aren't doing enough". Don't let 'em get to you.
If it weren't for those of us that got our treatment and then went on to disappear into society living normal lives adding to the statistics as being successful with an improved quality of life, where would this "community" be? #stealthlivesmatter Don't let anyone make you think otherwise.
There other ways you can help. I'm fortunate enough to have a few hundred bucks a year to donate to trans focused support organizations and even toss a bit to the NCTE even if I'm not completely on board with all their agenda. I put myself out as a resource on the private forums at Gender Spectrum for parents that might be wondering if their trans kids are going to grow up and be okay? (I did and they will) I've joined the forum here to share some of the experiences from my life that may in small ways be helpful to others.
There's also degrees of "stealth", quoted because that's a horrible term. There's reasonable stealth where a few, usually close friends and family know and there's insane stealth where you live in fear and paranoia that someone will find out your grand secret. The latter
is soul crushing and if "hiding" is causing big stress and anxiety, it isn't healthy either.
I was fortunate to blend in well by the time I completed social transition after graduating high school in 1973 and I surely wasn't about to go around broadcasting I was anything other than how I was seen or known as especially at my work and in my neighborhood. I've lived the blended in life but that doesn't mean there aren't a few people that do know my history. I certainly wouldn't be happy if the whole world knew and if I did out myself publicly, I'm sure I would regret the decision and I urge you to think real hard before doing anything you might regret as well especially if driven by outside pressures and opinions. I wouldn't like being known as anyone or anything I haven't been for the last 45 years or so but I don't lose any sleep over it. That's just my preference and what works best for me and I won't be put down because of it.
Now if they start rounding us up and putting in camps, that's a different story.
Quote from: Sarah leah on October 08, 2017, 09:05:19 PM
The issue is not being transgender in 2017, rather the issue is that the for lack of a better term "feminist millennials" or "college gender studies dropouts" have taken transgender terminology and used it as a way of pushing their current agendas. Indeed as someone who has been a part of politics and social sciences for over a two decades in Australia and Europe I can tell you very simply that until recently your average joe could give two hoots about who you are, as long as you do not do harm to others. Whereas now being trans* is now seen as a political statement akin to black lives matter or antifa.
Because of this alone I personally would not expose myself to unwarranted hatred or martyrdom to fuel the wanted needs off a bunch of extremist radical hate mongers.
/remember this is just my view and open to debate
"Extremist radical hate mongers" might be a bit harsh but I know what you're talking about and you'll get no debate from me.
I was so sure that I would go stealth if I could pass. I think that I mostly pass now but even so I don't think that stealth for me is possible. Even if I knew for sure that I pass 100% I couldn't go stealth. I would have to lie all the time and live that lie for the rest of my life. I can't, I just can't.
I won't. So what if I can be myself if I am still in a prison of shame about who I am?
Besides, I don't know how to lie like that anymore. So I have tried to just be quiet or mislead without outright telling an untruth, but then it has to be very superficial friendships. I want more I suppose. I know that it must sound pathetic, but I have spent my entire life like that and I don't want to be so separate anymore.
As scared as I am, I am myself. And I don't feel like I have to advertise or anything, just not be too ashamed to be honest if it comes down to it. I don't know if stealth is soul destroying and it's not likely that I will ever find out. I think that if someone wants to be stealth and can get away with it, it's wonderful. :) I only wish that I could, but how many wishes come true?
Michelle
I don't see stealth as 'lying' to the general populace... Frankly who among us blurt out the honest 100% truth to every single person we meet. "Keeping it real" as some put it? Keeping it real is a real quick way of losing friends, loved ones, job, and even your life. We all filter what we say to others based on what circumstances require. Being yourself doesn't mean spilling the beans on all of lifes mysteries.
Again, if you feel like being out & about, go for it. Just understand 'different strokes for different folks'.. we all have our own life to live, and our own method to live it.
Wow, is everything I say going to be misinterpreted or twisted?
I said that I don't advertise, meaning that I do not tell anyone unless and until I get close to them.
I did say that I think that it is great if someone can go stealth.
Whatever.
Quote from: FinallyMichelle on October 09, 2017, 01:40:45 AM
Wow, is everything I say going to be misinterpreted or twisted?
I said that I don't advertise, meaning that I do not tell anyone unless and until I get close to them.
I did say that I think that it is great if someone can go stealth.
Whatever.
I didn't mean to offend, just stating how I feel about advertising or being 'out'. Honestly for those that proudly work the SAME job they had before, and keep working there post? To me that probably takes more guts than simply hiding like some of us do. If you can do that, my figurative hat is off to you! Honestly, I think it is impressive to do that.. I certainly didn't.
Probably same goes for those that will tell people willingly if someone raises an eyebrow or ask; It does help to provide education to those willing to learn. I've never actually had anyone ask me to be honest. Probably why I took this route in the first place.
Again, I didn't mean to seem insulting or anything.
I agree fully with FinallyMichelle, we have lied to ourselves and to be in stealth would be perpetuating and living a life of lies. You dont have to shout it from the rooftop but good friends and male relationships should know, just because they are good friends and with male relationships for safety. I am proud to be a tg female, the 3rd gender. I feel it is less intrusive for the cis males and cis females and will be the road to full acceptance.
I pass fully and I feel we should have pride in who we are and hiding only shows your shame. But if you want stealth thats fine. But respect those of us who feel pride and not shame, we are the ones that will bring about changes in society to help all of us.
I don't know how well I will be able to pass in the future, but I suspect not well enough to attempt stealth. I know that I wouldn't want to. Not judging anyone else, but for me, stealth would be soul-destroying. I lived 60 years of stealth as a guy and it was sucking the life out of me. I don't see any difference between being in the closet and being stealth.
On the other hand, I have the luxury of living in a tolerant and generally accepting country. If I lived in a country where acceptance is rare and even tolerance is in peril, I might be forced to be stealth. Or perhaps I would be p*ssed off enough to become an activist. I don't know.
If someone wants to be out and proud that's great. I'm never going to be one of those people. I feel being out to everyone defeats the purpose of transition. I don't want to be known as trans or the third sex. I wouldn't be able to have a happy life. This is just me but I feel like as soon as most people know you're trans, it's over. No matter how accepting they seem they no longer see you as female. They see you as something less . That's just how I feel. After everything I've been through I never want to be known as
"That ->-bleeped-<-" or " that guy who had a sex change". For me that would be almost as bad as being a guy. People are more accepting than they were in the past but don't think they're totally accepting because they aren't!
My mom tells me I'm not a "real" girl all the time. If my own mother can't accept me as a woman what chance do I have with people in general? Then I have my boyfriend to think about. There have been a couple of incidents where people I knew before transition have outed me to him. It didn't really bother him. But if I was out and everyone knew I was trans that would be awful for him. We know how totally mean people can be. He would have to deal with people questioning his sexuality and saying stuff to him. With a trans person its guilt by association. I learned from what happened to my brother. I can't help being trans but I also don't want people I love to be hurt for it.
I would tell any guy I was having a relationship with I'm trans. But that's it. I wouldn't tell my friends. Friends can't be trusted not to blab. Knowing someone is trans is too juicy not to gossip about. I would never attend any kind of pride parade and after that one awful experience with a support group I won't ever attend another one. Honestly I don't need a support group. Whatever issues I might be having I can talk about it and get good advice here.
I would also never turn my back on a trans person who needed my help. I have a 16 year old transgirl I'm trying to help as much as I can. She's not at all passable because she just transitioned and just started hrt. But I have no problem being in public with her. I'm not ashamed of being trans but I'm not proud of it either. To me it would be like being proud of having a cleft pallet. I intend to be as stealth as possible. But that's what I want. I'm not judging anyone that's proud of being trans. But personally I could never be proud of something that has caused me so much pain.
If being "stealth" is emotionally satisfying for someone that's cool. Coming out has consequences. As a result of coming out I have to rebuild a new life with new friends and social activities as a woman. I'm in the process of doing that. I don't want to be ID'd as transgender. I'm a gender queer woman, if there's such a thing. I could not care less about supporting a "cause." I'm out but I'm no martyr. It's about making me happy not saving the world. Stealth is cool, but it's hard to stay that way. Best wishes.
Quote from: Sarah leah on October 08, 2017, 09:05:19 PM
The issue is not being transgender in 2017, rather the issue is that the for lack of a better term "feminist millennials" or "college gender studies dropouts" have taken transgender terminology and used it as a way of pushing their current agendas. Indeed as someone who has been a part of politics and social sciences for over a two decades in Australia and Europe I can tell you very simply that until recently your average joe could give two hoots about who you are, as long as you do not do harm to others. Whereas now being trans* is now seen as a political statement akin to black lives matter or antifa.
Because of this alone I personally would not expose myself to unwarranted hatred or martyrdom to fuel the wanted needs off a bunch of extremist radical hate mongers.
/remember this is just my view and open to debate
I actually agree with you on this. This is the reason I have backed out trans activism, because I feel like now it represents a post-genderist/trans-humanist ideology that I just can't support. Ensuring that gender-nonconforming and transsexual people are not discriminated against or victims of violence are causes I feel like are worth fighting for, because their condition is supported by science and their treatments are proven effective. But promoting the idea of people modifying their bodies as if they were video game avatars, purely for aesthetic purposes, and adopting the language of trans people in order to defend their choices... that's a completely different agenda. I also feel like that's the one that people think of when they hear "transgender" these days (which is also a word I'm not super crazy about).
I also agree with Julia in that people will look at you differently. The people I work with know me as female. As soon as I tell them I'm trans, they may not see me as male, but they won't see me the way they did before when they assumed I was just another cis woman. I also can't risk that getting around, because I work in a big hotel and there are a lot of people in it... someone might have a problem and might give me issues with the bathroom and locker room that I use.
I live out in the Texas hill country. I'm getting along in my hrt and body changes are really getting noticeable. We have decided to leave this place for one more culturally diverse and safer but it's not going to happen over night. Takes a while to "unweave" a web. So, for my own safety and that of my wife, I have to be as stealth as I can, which is starting to cause some problems for me. I'm not sure I will pass stealth for more than a couple of months more, my spirit really doesn't want to, but it will take probably at least another year to wind down and sell everything before re locating. I don't think living comfortably stealth is problematic if you can do it and decide that's for you, but I think if you HAVE to live stealth I can see it can cause some of the same anxieties and stress that our initial denial of ourselves did. If that is the case, I think it could be damaging and I'm somewhat in fear of exactly that in spite of huge successes with my dysphora in so many other ways. Right now the difference in the joy and freedom I feel on our trips to the city are in sharp contrast to the shadow I live in out here, even though I'm well known in the area, which makes matters worse at this point. Toni
Quote from: warlockmaker on October 09, 2017, 05:47:33 AM
I pass fully and I feel we should have pride in who we are and hiding only shows your shame. But if you want stealth thats fine. But respect those of us who feel pride and not shame, we are the ones that will bring about changes in society to help all of us.
This was really insulting. You accuse those who are living in stealth of hiding in shame, while at the same time demanding respect from them? That's messed up.
Quote from: KathyLauren on October 09, 2017, 06:25:55 AM
I don't know how well I will be able to pass in the future, but I suspect not well enough to attempt stealth. I know that I wouldn't want to. Not judging anyone else, but for me, stealth would be soul-destroying. I lived 60 years of stealth as a guy and it was sucking the life out of me. I don't see any difference between being in the closet and being stealth.
When an MtF is in the closet, they are living as a man and hiding their true selves. When she transitions and lives in stealth, she is living as a woman - as her authentic self. She is no longer lying about who she is, because she is and always was a woman - maybe not physically, but in her mind and soul, which is where it really matters. Yes she is still trans, but she is first and foremost a woman.
Being in the closet means hiding the essence of who you are. Living in stealth may mean hiding a part of who you are, but it's not hiding the essence of who you are. That's a big difference.
The whole point of my transition was to live as a woman, to simply blend in and live as any other woman. If you want to call that stealth then I am living stealth. If I form a close friendship with someone I may tell them, but that will be a decision I will make on an individual basis.
I don't feel that I'm hiding anything and it's certainly not soul destroying. I had a birth defect corrected that made my body match my mind, I feel no guilt for doing that nor do I feel a need to tell anyone. Several years ago I had a surgery to correct a problem with one of my lungs. It never comes up in conversion and I feel no need to tell anyone. Does that mean I'm hiding it, no, it just means it's information that's not relevant to living day to day life.
Quote from: Barb99 on October 09, 2017, 12:27:18 PM
The whole point of my transition was to live as a woman, to simply blend in and live as any other woman. If you want to call that stealth then I am living stealth. If I form a close friendship with someone I may tell them, but that will be a decision I will make on an individual basis.
I don't feel that I'm hiding anything and it's certainly not soul destroying. I had a birth defect corrected that made my body match my mind, I feel no guilt for doing that nor do I feel a need to tell anyone. Several years ago I had a surgery to correct a problem with one of my lungs. It never comes up in conversion and I feel no need to tell anyone. Does that mean I'm hiding it, no, it just means it's information that's not relevant to living day to day life.
I agree with everything said above, if somebody wants to be out and proud, that's fine, it's very much an individual choice and life circumstances, everybody's situation is different, stealth for me certainly wasn't soul destroying but gave me a whole new lease of life and being accepted and blend in as a normal woman.
I think my husband would be crushed and probably be ridiculed by ignorant and hateful people that his wife was ''born a man'' or he is gay being married to a trans woman, well my hubby certainly isn't gay ( no offence to gay people) he has only ever dated women, we don't have to deal with all that hateful and hurtful nonsense, simply because I'm stealth, I suppose I could say I'm out and proud as a WOMAN!
I can't stand the word "stealth." The connotations of hiding, when for me living a woman's life is about presenting my most authentic self. There are other words for describing living this way. I call it "practicing non-disclosure" or "maintaining a closed narrative." As opposed to having an "open narrative" which is basically being "out."
But it really all comes down to the truth of your identity and your own understanding of gender, which no one else but you can determine. Do you identify with one of the binary gender categories, and being gendered correctly within them? Or do you define yourself somewhere in between, or by your dysphoria and transition?
If you're currently practicing non-disclosure, know this: "coming out" is a ritual (from the LGB side of the community) that's basically a request to be treated differently than how you're being treated now; it's a way to be placed in a different social category. For most cis people in the West, who only understand the gender binary, you'll effectively be asking people to misgender you, which might not be wise if you were gender dysphoric once upon a time.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 09, 2017, 04:48:27 PM
I can't stand the word "stealth." The connotations of hiding, when for me living a woman's life is about presenting my most authentic self. There are other words for describing living this way. I call it "practicing non-disclosure" or "maintaining a closed narrative." As opposed to having an "open narrative" which is basically being "out."
I really like your terms here. I think this is a very individual thing that is based on many factors from how you wish to socialize, to what makes you up as a person emotionally etc. I'm pretty out and proud about the whole thing and it does not really trigger dysphoria for me. It is never a perfect thing, there are positive times and negative times but I don't consider myself to have had a "birth defect" at all. It is just how i was born, positive and negative.
So i don't think maintaining a closed narrative is necessarily negative at all. It could be what the person really needs. But, if a person is experiencing guilt about not being an activist or the like, guilt does try and speak to us. So maybe such a person should consider being more open. The flip side is also true for someone that is very open but finds themselves experiencing more negative than they can handle.
Quote from: warlockmaker on October 09, 2017, 05:47:33 AM
I pass fully and I feel we should have pride in who we are and hiding only shows your shame.
I hope you realize that statements like that show that you believe being out makes you morally superior to those that are stealth ... and that is simply not the case.
How long has it been since you transitioned?
Can you understand that some don't want the rest of their lives defined by having needed to change sex?
It is not about shame and these days many times not about fear either... (in many places being known as TS is not as dangerous as it once was)
It's about quality/texture of life and wanting to be able to focus on other things. I can tell you that this stuff can get VERY old (I went full time over 20 years ago ad SRS 19 years ago ). There should be a lot more to life than having to explain who one is all the time or have to prove one self in ways others don't have to, to new people.
All that said, I can't be stealth... but wish I could be. Not because I am ashamed... This was the most difficult thing I have ever done and is a big reason to be proud of MYSELF... but that happened long ago and life needs to goes on...
So while being out fits you NOW, it might not 10 years from now... and even if it does maybe by then you will understand that it does not suit others for reasons that have nothing to do with shame.
- karen
Karen. Read my profile. You transitioned 20 years ago, I had my srs 2 years ago, we belong to a new generation that your generation gave us the courage to become. We evolve and greatly understand more about being tg. Are you not proud that we can now also be proud we are TGs.
You are not stealth, Being stealth has great potential consequences, and demonstrates as others have said that you live in fear of disclosure. And what if you are found out? Will your friends abandon you, will your husband abandon you? If they do are they really who you want in your life.
Being open as a tg does not mean we are activists or advocates. Its is not spendingg your whole life explaining yourself. It also does not mean we are not female but as the Dalia Lama said we cherish who we are so that we can understand ourselves and help others. We are not born female, we have lived 2 lives, thats a celebration. Sadly the God religions morality has caused so much pain to LGBTs, and giiven such shame that many live in stealth.
A comment from another forum member saying that her husband would be embarassed if others knew he was married to a former man. ------ Our LGBT movement started with gays, and now we have same sex marriages. Gays pride has proven its success and today being openly gay is becomming normal. I hope our TG community has that same pride and embrace the fact we are TGs.
There are so many different needs and such differences in how our personalities demonstrate themselves. Others can do what I can not do and the other way around.
My old life needed coping mechanisms that protected me, that hid pain and struggles and kept those around me from knowing me. That was a cold, isolated loner of a life that almost killed me. I am transgender and transitioning has given me a new life. A huge part of that life, for me, is living openly an transparently. Being able to live without secrets or hiding things is a primary driver in my life and is allowing me amazing growth. Speaking only for me, if I were to try to live stealth it would take away half of what I have gained and would do damage to my heart and soul. If you want and can live in stealth more blessings to you. I have neither the strength nor desire to try to pull that off. I need transparency with those in my life; relationships, to know and be known in this world is life to me.
I transitioned openly at my last job some of these people I worked with for over twenty years. I hoped they would see that it was a positive change for me. Some people saw the truth in that, others shunned me.
The company I worked at was sold and the new owners wanted to move it from California to Maryland. So I started looking for work at other company's in the field that I had worked in for thirty years. There were several company's in the area doing that kind of work and I knew people that worked at all of them. People that I knew would not return calls, and interviews would suddenly get canceled with vague explanations. I helped design some of the products and train the people at these places and prior to this my knowledge and expertise was sought after.
I needed to move and start over where no one knew me personally prior to my transition. I am now working at company that only has known me as Stephanie. I feel much better in this situation they respect my ability, and I am treated like woman instead of a leper.
I tried being open and was naive to think I could change peoples prejudice, stealth is much better for me.
Quote from: Allie24 on October 09, 2017, 10:38:35 AM
I actually agree with you on this. This is the reason I have backed out trans activism, because I feel like now it represents a post-genderist/trans-humanist ideology that I just can't support. Ensuring that gender-nonconforming and transsexual people are not discriminated against or victims of violence are causes I feel like are worth fighting for, because their condition is supported by science and their treatments are proven effective. But promoting the idea of people modifying their bodies as if they were video game avatars, purely for aesthetic purposes, and adopting the language of trans people in order to defend their choices... that's a completely different agenda. I also feel like that's the one that people think of when they hear "transgender" these days (which is also a word I'm not super crazy about).
I also agree with Julia in that people will look at you differently. The people I work with know me as female. As soon as I tell them I'm trans, they may not see me as male, but they won't see me the way they did before when they assumed I was just another cis woman. I also can't risk that getting around, because I work in a big hotel and there are a lot of people in it... someone might have a problem and might give me issues with the bathroom and locker room that I use.
Again l find myself agreeing with some of our youngest members. Right on, ladies.
Quote from: warlockmaker on October 09, 2017, 08:15:00 PM
Karen. Read my profile. You transitioned 20 years ago, I had my srs 2 years ago, we belong to a new generation that your generation gave us the courage to become.
At least where I live things were not very different in this respect 20 years ago than they are now. BTW over the years I've know a number who felt like you do but eventually moved to mostly stealth lives.
Don't be surprised if your attitude changes as you older... Its not a generation thing, it's an experience thing.
I forgot you were the person who said none of us can pass well enough for stealth as well... and while that is true for me, it's not true get every one I have met...
You are obviously very invested in believing being out is the only "right" way to be... so much so that I'm not sure you are open to trying to understand that all you believe about stealth is not always true. A lot depends on the individual, their emotional makeup and how they see themselves.
There are also degrees. Most who I would call stealth have a few good friends and/or an SO that know.
I will agree that one should never be stealth to a spouse, but that said I've known some who were that seemed to me were good people.
Quote
We evolve and greatly understand more about being tg. Are you not proud that we can now also be proud we are TGs.
Do you see how that comment assumes the identity of all of us?
Quote
Being open as a tg does not mean we are activists or advocates. Its is not spendingg your whole life explaining yourself.
While I'm not stealth I have had "stealth" friendships, and there is a difference, though sometimes it is very subtle. Does it matter? That depends on you (meaning each individual TS)..
Quote
Sadly the God religions morality has caused so much pain to LGBTs, and giiven such shame that many live in stealth.
You obviously believe that all stealth is rooted in shame. That simply is not so, but you you won't believe what other people tell you about where it comes from for them ...
I don't know how you can be is sure you believe you know where they are coming from better than they do themselves.
Sure you can come up with anecdotal evidence to support your beliefs ... but those are not universals.
My question to you is why are you so invested in believing all stealth is based in shame?
Can't you just accept that others feelings and experiences can be different from yours?
- Karen
Karen, To quote a famous black american -- if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem ---. I am 69 years old and mature, my views will not change, I am so well know as a TG that there will never be stealth. How active I am about TGs may change but that pride will always be there.
Be stealth if you wish but its not a healthy mental state. And yes, its a fact, we are all TGs, like it or not. More and more countries are giving or considering 3rd gender IDs. Nepal, Thailand, Taiwan, UK, and EU. For us equal rights as cis people for jobs, marriage travel and respect is what we seek.
So you believe in being partially stealth, you would tell your partner. Why do that if you are stealth? So lying to one is not the same as lying to another. Hard logic to understand.
We need to seek a solution that allows us to be who we are openly, be it mtf or ftm and I appluad and am grateful for all those activists and advocates. Be proud to be a tg a menber of the diversity of humans.
Quote from: echo7 on October 09, 2017, 10:48:08 AM
This was really insulting. You accuse those who are living in stealth of hiding in shame, while at the same time demanding respect from them? That's messed up.
Totally agree with you.
I disagree that we must be proud of being TG. Prior to surgery, and post surgery, I've never been proud to be trans. Why should I?
Proud to be trans absolutely. Insulting? Who is going to fight for our rights. Those in stealth ? No. If you are stealth then you owe those who boldly fight for your rights. We fight for the next generation so that they can be proud. Remember gay pride has been effective. Before that gays lived in the closet.
Some of us do not have the financial resources to be out and proud, the reality of life dictates otherwise. The smug righteousness of some that do is troubling.
Quote from: warlockmaker on October 10, 2017, 12:22:48 AM
Karen, To quote a famous black american -- if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem ---. I am 69 years old and mature, my views will not change, I am so well know as a TG that there will never be stealth. How active I am about TGs may change but that pride will always be there.
Be stealth if you wish but its not a healthy mental state. And yes, its a fact, we are all TGs, like it or not. More and more countries are giving or considering 3rd gender IDs. Nepal, Thailand, Taiwan, UK, and EU. For us equal rights as cis people for jobs, marriage travel and respect is what we seek.
So you believe in being partially stealth, you would tell your partner. Why do that if you are stealth? So lying to one is not the same as lying to another. Hard logic to understand.
We need to seek a solution that allows us to be who we are openly, be it mtf or ftm and I appluad and am grateful for all those activists and advocates. Be proud to be a tg a menber of the diversity of humans.
What solution? We can't change how others behave. In Thailand being trans might be no big deal but for those of us in the USA and other countries there is always the possibility of being assaulted or even killed. Not telling people I'm trans is not lying. I'm not pretending to be a woman. I AM a woman. And it's no one elses business that I'm trans unless I'm having sex with him. I told my boyfriend because it was his business but to me it was more like telling him about a birth defect I had fixed.
And I do appreciate those who came before me and I thank them for everything they have done. I'm glad for those who are out and proud. I'm glad they can be happy being totally out and open. I never could be.
I think everyone has their own reasons for choosing stealth or loud and proud. It's a very personal matter, and each decision is as respectable as the other.
In my case, I wouldn't want "transgender" to be the first adjective in my biography. It's a part of me, but not the most important. That's why I don't carry a flag that says "I'm trans" with me unless it's a special event (though I did like a tee that said "nobody knows I'm transgender").
On the other hand, the objective of my transition was to be myself, and I can't omit how I was born. All of my friends know I'm trans, most of my professors do, and a few old classmates also. If you are going to be in my life, I want you to like me for who I am, the whole of me, so you need to know I was born with a male body. I don't want people in my life that would treat me different because of my gender, and telling I'm trans helps me to keep away from them.
I also stopped caring about what others say about me after transitioning, so they can go ahead and call me "trans guy", "->-bleeped-<-", "ugly trany" and whatever they come up with, I won't let that affect me, even less stop me from being myself.
Quote from: Barb99 on October 09, 2017, 12:27:18 PM
The whole point of my transition was to live as a woman, to simply blend in and live as any other woman. If you want to call that stealth then I am living stealth. If I form a close friendship with someone I may tell them, but that will be a decision I will make on an individual basis.
I don't feel that I'm hiding anything and it's certainly not soul destroying. I had a birth defect corrected that made my body match my mind, I feel no guilt for doing that nor do I feel a need to tell anyone. Several years ago I had a surgery to correct a problem with one of my lungs. It never comes up in conversion and I feel no need to tell anyone. Does that mean I'm hiding it, no, it just means it's information that's not relevant to living day to day life.
Exactly this. Thank you Barb99. Now I don't have to type all of that. Those who preach (I use that word deliberately) that the only way to be trans is to be an in-your-face activist practice the same "my way or the highway" attitude as the churches they castigate.
I'm in the early stages, but if I get to the point of passing in public, I don't intend to wave flags in people's faces. I have a widening circle of friends who know, and I've been acting as an educator and advocate with them. But it's not likely I'm going to be marching in any parades or doing interviews on TV. I am in the process of treating a medical condition, and, assuming the treatment is effective, I don't intend to advertise it to the world any more than I'd advertise the correction of a cleft palate.
After a painful half century of "living stealth" by hiding who I really am, I only wish to find quiet contentment living authentically. I respect those who have the fire in their belly and put themselves on the front lines. I only ask that they respect my choices as well.
Stephanie
Quote from: warlockmaker on October 10, 2017, 05:55:20 AM
Proud to be trans absolutely. Insulting? Who is going to fight for our rights. Those in stealth ? No. If you are stealth then you owe those who boldly fight for your rights. We fight for the next generation so that they can be proud. Remember gay pride has been effective. Before that gays lived in the closet.
I can be "stealth" and still fight for and support the rights of others. I vote for representatives that support rights for minority groups, I voice my opinions to others that aren't supportive of others rights. I don't need to stand on my soap box and proclaim myself trans in order to do that. There are many ways to fight for our rights.
Quote from: warlockmaker on October 10, 2017, 12:22:48 AM
Karen, To quote a famous black american -- if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem ---. I am 69 years old and mature, my views will not change, I am so well know as a TG that there will never be stealth. How active I am about TGs may change but that pride will always be there.
Be stealth if you wish but its not a healthy mental state. And yes, its a fact, we are all TGs, like it or not. More and more countries are giving or considering 3rd gender IDs. Nepal, Thailand, Taiwan, UK, and EU. For us equal rights as cis people for jobs, marriage travel and respect is what we seek.
So you believe in being partially stealth, you would tell your partner. Why do that if you are stealth? So lying to one is not the same as lying to another. Hard logic to understand.
We need to seek a solution that allows us to be who we are openly, be it mtf or ftm and I appluad and am grateful for all those activists and advocates. Be proud to be a tg a menber of the diversity of humans.
I think it depends on what you view being trans to be. I consider it to be a medical condition. Do people go around talking about having cancer or struggling with schizophrenia in casual conversation? Not in America, that's for sure. Unless you are really close to the other person, or your particular illness may present itself in a very obvious way and you will need others' assistance, or just an open person in general.
I am not sure if you come from America or not, but please, have some respect for our culture. Individualism and privacy are important to a lot of us, and for those who wish to retain it, let them retain it. If trouble comes knocking on our doors, we'll fight it. And don't think we aren't grateful for those who put their necks out for us, because their work really does mean a lot.
This conversation reminds me of the first, and only transgender group I met in person. I attended thinking I'd find likeminded people like myself.
The president of the chapter was talking about pride events in my city and surrounding towns. I still recall her calling out the new people to come out, be proud, carry the flag. I declined as activism and attending pride wasn't my thing.
I've never been back only because I don't want to be told what I should be doing, and if I don't, making me feel guilty.
Quote from: Allie24 on October 10, 2017, 09:11:09 AM
I think it depends on what you view being trans to be. I consider it to be a medical condition. Do people go around talking about having cancer or struggling with schizophrenia in casual conversation? Not in America, that's for sure. Unless you are really close to the other person, or your particular illness may present itself in a very obvious way and you will need others' assistance, or just an open person in general.
I am not sure if you come from America or not, but please, have some respect for our culture. Individualism and privacy are important to a lot of us, and for those who wish to retain it, let them retain it. If trouble comes knocking on our doors, we'll fight it. And don't think we aren't grateful for those who put their necks out for us, because their work really does mean a lot.
Two words for you: Pink Ribbons. :)
Hugs, Devlyn
To ME personally stealth is SOUL-SHIELDING!
I started writing some thoughts yesterday, but deleted the post because I thought I couldn't contribute anything meaningful. However what I now see happening makes me sad. I don't know whether this is helpful, but I hope it may be.
Where I live, a state of in-between is probably more common than in the West. Even the boundaries between transsexual and feminine homosexual are more blurred. In the past, when medical intervention was unavailable it was not uncommon for people to assume female language/speech patterns and clothing but retain a male voice and still be accepted as a part of society. These people knew they were conspicuous, so they mostly did not even try to hide what they were. Some became actors. Some ran bars. Those who worked in common occupations would usually dress male during the day but might also have another job where they let themselves free in the evenings. Those who were beautiful were admired. Those who were not just grinned and bore it.
These days medical intervention has helped many more people to blend in. Some fade into the woodwork. Many even now choose visible occupations. they are more profitable than an office job, and while Western attitudes have made some headway here, most people are still either tolerant or supportive.
Warlockmaker lives in a similar society. I know it is very different in the West.
I myself work with an European man. I never advertise my gender. Many people who see us together assume I'm his wife. Luckily he is mostly amused and bemused. However, he also tells me that were I to live in his country I'd probably be either extremely scarred or extremely strong. That does sound frightful. If I did have to live there, I'd probably have hurried to get all operations I could to eliminate every trace of masculinity I can find. Else I might have tried to assume a masculine persona to survive.
Were I to move somewhere and start completely anew here, I might possibly be able to completely fade into the woodwork. However, as long as I associate with people who've known me for longer it is not possible. In any case I feel happy when new acquaintances continue to see me as a woman even when it happens that people who have known me as a man refer to me using male terms.
For those whose features are so masculine that this can't happen, the option of being inconspicuous is less real. I can't forget an elderly lady I saw dressed in a long flowing white dress who tried not to look at anyone as she hurried down a station staircase. She seemed very unaccustomed to high heels, and had a shadow on her chin. She tripped, and I wanted to ask if she was all right, but it was obvious that she only hoped everyone would ignore her, and sped away from the scene looking at the ground. Had she been confident of herself, she would not have attracted nearly as much attention as she did by trying to be invisible. When "stealth" is not a realistic option, I do think absolute openness may be more charming and safe.
That said, I do believe the circumstances we find ourselves in are all different. I am fortunate. Some are not. Some live in danger. Each one of us has to make choices based on the options available to us.
I do hope we can all understand this, and respect and accept each other.
Quote from: Nina on October 10, 2017, 09:32:52 AM
This conversation reminds me of the first, and only transgender group I met in person. I attended thinking I'd find likeminded people like myself.
The president of the chapter was talking about pride events in my city and surrounding towns. I still recall her calling out the new people to come out, be proud, carry the flag. I declined as activism and attending pride wasn't my thing.
I've never been back only because I don't want to be told what I should be doing, and if I don't, making me feel guilty.
I agree with you there. I'm not an activist, never have been. I support transgender rights of course, but being pushed into activism is common at groups and is a common discussion too. I hate it and always try to change the conversation.
That said, stealth doesn't mean shame to me, it means living life as a woman, and nobody questions it. I would love to be able to transition this well, that I could do that. I may not be able to be stealth, but that doesn't make me ashamed to not be an activist. I was ashamed for repressing being trans. I'm clawing my way out of that. I don't want anybody telling me it's one shame cave or another.
Quote from: zirconia on October 10, 2017, 09:54:26 AM
I started writing some thoughts yesterday, but deleted the post because I thought I couldn't contribute anything meaningful. However what I now see happening makes me sad. I don't know whether this is helpful, but I hope it may be.
Where I live, a state of in-between is probably more common than in the West. Even the boundaries between transsexual and feminine homosexual are more blurred. In the past, when medical intervention was unavailable it was not uncommon for people to assume female language/speech patterns and clothing but retain a male voice and still be accepted as a part of society. These people knew they were conspicuous, so they mostly did not even try to hide what they were. Some became actors. Some ran bars. Those who worked in common occupations would usually dress male during the day but might also have another job where they let themselves free in the evenings. Those who were beautiful were admired. Those who were not just grinned and bore it.
These days medical intervention has helped many more people to blend in. Some fade into the woodwork. Many even now choose visible occupations. they are more profitable than an office job, and while Western attitudes have made some headway here, most people are still either tolerant or supportive.
Warlockmaker lives in a similar society. I know it is very different in the West.
I myself work with an European man. I never advertise my gender. Many people who see us together assume I'm his wife. Luckily he is mostly amused and bemused. However, he also tells me that were I to live in his country I'd probably be either extremely scarred or extremely strong. That does sound frightful. If I did have to live there, I'd probably have hurried to get all operations I could to eliminate every trace of masculinity I can find. Else I might have tried to assume a masculine persona to survive.
Were I to move somewhere and start completely anew here, I might possibly be able to completely fade into the woodwork. However, as long as I associate with people who've known me for longer it is not possible. In any case I feel happy when new acquaintances continue to see me as a woman even when it happens that people who have known me as a man refer to me using male terms.
For those whose features are so masculine that this can't happen, the option of being inconspicuous is less real. I can't forget an elderly lady I saw dressed in a long flowing white dress who tried not to look at anyone as she hurried down a station staircase. She seemed very unaccustomed to high heels, and had a shadow on her chin. She tripped, and I wanted to ask if she was all right, but it was obvious that she only hoped everyone would ignore her, and sped away from the scene looking at the ground. Had she been confident of herself, she would not have attracted nearly as much attention as she did by trying to be invisible. When "stealth" is not a realistic option, I do think absolute openness may be more charming and safe.
That said, I do believe the circumstances we find ourselves in are all different. I am fortunate. Some are not. Some live in danger. Each one of us has to make choices based on the options available to us.
I do hope we can all understand this, and respect and accept each other.
This was very beautifully written and well thought out! Thank you.
I want to thank Zirconia for a well thought out and calming message that most of us can relate to. This is a very good topic that sparks lots of discussion. This is both good and bad. The good is obvious, the bad is the anger and derision that it generates. All here have had to deal with living a transgender life, our stories have similarities and differences. Please lets keep Susan's a place that promotes growth, dialog, healing and support. We owe each other that much.
In love and appreciation of you all,
Anne
Being in the closet is soul crushing. And not really knowing if this is really for you even more so. In this context I would not go for total stealth. Some do not have the option for stealth. It's just being honest and open. It is important one can even share these basic things.
Quote from: warlockmaker on October 10, 2017, 05:55:20 AM
Be stealth if you wish but its not a healthy mental state. And yes, its a fact, we are all TGs, like it or not. More and more countries are giving or considering 3rd gender IDs.
..
Proud to be trans absolutely. Insulting? Who is going to fight for our rights. Those in stealth ? No. If you are stealth then you owe those who boldly fight for your rights. We fight for the next generation so that they can be proud. Remember gay pride has been effective. Before that gays lived in the closet.
@wlm you are in no wise in a position to judge whether someone else's mental state is healthy and it should be pretty obvious that someone who's trans and identifies in the binary doesn't by definition consider themselves a third gender.
As for insulting, you're misreading the comment, of course your pride in whatever you're about is fine by all of us. What's insulting is your presumption that your experience gives you the right to be demeaning of others experiences or choices (to be clear, 1 questioning mental health, 2 assuming that one can only be an activist while being out ... I could cherry pick several other examples).
Your comparisons to being out as a gay, lesbian ... are also off the mark. By the same token that trans people who don't fully pass have always been among the most visible of the LGBT population and therefore at relatively higher risk of bashing and physical attack, those who pass are entirely invisible and unlike gays who need to hide what they do sexually or who they love to be in the closet, what do we have to hide? Simply living in our true gender is a set of physical facts.
If I had had any reasonable expectation of passing I'd have transitioned 20 years ago, I'd have ditched my abusive family in a heartbeat and I'd be simply living as a woman. If it weren't for the despicably bigoted family I am part of, I'd probably have figured out I'm female before puberty and perhaps obviated testosterone making it so hard to pass.
Finally to activism. Some of the most effective activists I've known have been closeted in one or another aspect of their sexual identity or preference. In particular a dear friend who was and still is an influential member of NOW achieved changes in that organization's policies and political platform that helped move the face of mainstream feminism from exclusionary towards the intersectional 3rd wave of today. Had she not been closeted about some aspects of her life she would haven't had the credibility to influence the organization.
I've been an activist for both issues of legality of bdsm activities and trans issues and I did so without being out with my family or with my ex (no amount of community good would be worth risking a custody battle with my ex).
Guess we just can't have nice things. Thread locked.
:police:
Please remember TOS 5, 10, and 15.