So I came across a video on Youtube about Transmen talking about male privilege, I found it interesting as I disagreed with all of their points, now me personally, I feel like women have it way easier and that there is no "Male Privilege" as a matter fact as a black male, it just makes it 10 times worse in my experience. I'd love to hear everyone elses oppinion and I'd also be willing to give mine. I'll leave a link to the video, hopefully it will work.
https://youtu.be/0KGJS0IhSoE
Off the top of my mind:
-Getting paid more than a woman for doing the same job.
-Being able to walk alone/at night/being drunk at parties without having a constant fear for your security and integrity.
-Not being expected to look perfect and pretty all the time, hence being able to wear whatever, not having people comment on your weight/hair constantly.
-Being promiscuous without getting a bad rep for it.
-Being able to be moody/grumpy without being called a bitch or just dismissed as being too difficult/emotional.
-Not having men belittle your intelligence /skills in general.
-As men get older they are usually perceived as more interesting/attractive, while it's the opposite for women.
Women do have privilege in other areas, but male privilege is there for sure.
Quote from: Charlie Nicki on October 09, 2017, 04:36:44 AM
Off the top of my mind:
-Getting paid more than a woman for doing the same job.
-Being able to walk alone/at night/being drunk at parties without having a constant fear for your security and integrity.
-Not being expected to look perfect and pretty all the time, hence being able to wear whatever, not having people comment on your weight/hair constantly.
-Being promiscuous without getting a bad rep for it.
-Being able to be moody/grumpy without being called a bitch or just dismissed as being too difficult/emotional.
-Not having men belittle your intelligence /skills in general.
-As men get older they are usually perceived as more interesting/attractive, while it's the opposite for women.
Women do have privilege in other areas, but male privilege is there for sure.
1. I do happen to agree on that
2. Who says men don't happen to be afraid to walk alone at night, I hear that often and to me its not a good arguement, especially being a black man. Women can be afraid but men can't or aren't suppose to I see.
3.I give you that.
4. I think that goes both ways I have had plenty of girls ask me why I am being such a dick and I also have issues expressing my emotions, why because of being told to man up and to quit being a bitch all the time and some girls even call dudes gay for being to emotional, so instead we hold anger in and suffer mentally. Oh and we can't cry but women can cry all day long and people will comfort them but if a man does it, you're a bitch, a p***y.
5.I could argue the same for women, men stay getting called stupid by women and they have this notion that all men are the same.
6. Iffy on that last one.
You're right both genders equally face issues but femminist act like men go through nothing.
People who moves into a new area are usually paid more than people born and raised there. Is it a 'relocators' privilege, or just a result of the simple fact that relocators need more money and are willing to work harder and take more risks?
Don't forget, while women are paid less, they somehow happen to have more money to spend on retail... Where did that money come from?
I don't buy that argument...
Others arguments seem also a little superstitious and stereotyping.
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Quote from: Brandon on October 09, 2017, 04:46:17 AM
2. Who says men don't happen to be afraid to walk alone at night, I hear that often and to me its not a good arguement, especially being a black man. Women can be afraid but men can't or aren't suppose to I see.
What I'm saying is there's a way bigger chance for a woman to be assaulted/raped etc than a man.
There's another thread an FTM guy made about all he learnt growing as a girl and half of the things he said was basically that women learn they need to be aware of their surroundings and security pretty much all the time. Especially around men. This does not happen with guys. I am MTF but have been living as a guy for 29 years, and of course I need to take care of myself and growing up my mom always warned me to be careful about things, but nowhere near as often or as intense as any of the girls I've known in my life. Most women I've known don't like walking by themselves at night, avoid taking a cab by themselves, avoid being in a group where they are vastly outnumbered by men they don't know, etc...The list goes on and on.
Quote from: Brandon on October 09, 2017, 04:46:17 AM5.I could argue the same for women, men stay getting called stupid by women and they have this notion that all men are the same.
I've heard countless women complain about being "mansplained". Even here, MTF women complain that as soon as they transition, it's like they suddenly became idiots in the eyes of men. Have never heard of guys complaining about the same, nor have I heard the term "womansplained".
i haven't seen any evidence that women are paid less to do the same job unless they're actually working fewer hours--which is not the same thing.
most other things that are considered "privilege" on one side tend to be broad generalizations which have opposite reflections on the other side, a similar advantage for every disadvantage and vice versa. that's going to happen when you have groups that occupy two different roles in society and have two different sets of expectations placed on them--as well as naturally distinct behaviors and things one will be more likely to do than the other in the same situations. there are always exceptions and overlaps, though, and things one person sees as privilege will be seen as a disadvantage by someone else.
so i don't think it's fair to say that one gender automatically comes with a set of privileges built-in, but speaking purely in generalized terms, i do think women actually have more resources afforded to them these days (at least here in the states; i don't claim to know how things work in other countries). and this is coming from someone who has been disadvantaged most of their life and had to live most of that time as a female. the disadvantages in my life did not come from being female, but from being isolated and poor. and i think those things will affect someone's "privilege" in life much more than the state of their physical body.
there ARE disadvantages to being a woman, generally speaking. but especially since trying to make a social transition, i've noticed that--for lack of better wording--women are more likely to have opportunities handed to them and be given assistance when needed. there were things i realized i would have to give up on, especially in terms of receiving any kind of support, when i transitioned away from being a woman. if a woman needs a shelter, a therapy group, financial assistance, or even just a social group, it's a lot easier to find one directed toward women than it is to find any such things aimed at men or even just aimed at everyone. there are a lot of things specifically dedicated to helping women, particularly mothers. women who have not had children/are not pregnant are not quite as lucky in that sense, and face their own set of disadvantages. but things like counseling and housing/financial assistance, social groups, even contests and scholarships are still made more available to women than to men. because basically, a combination of biology and society says that women (and children) should be protected. men are more disposable, and it shows in how they are treated. women also have the advantage of being allowed more flexibility within their roles, and i don't know how recent of a development this is, but women are afforded a lot more variety in how they can express themselves and what careers they can pursue without ridicule or threat of violence. and i've heard people make the claim that this is because masculinity is favored over femininity, but that just isn't true. if it were, then feminine women would be treated just as poorly as feminine men. the reality is just that people like for everyone to fit into a "box", to comply with the gender roles expected of them--but that women's gender roles have expanded, while men's have not. at least not nearly as much as women's have.
tl;dr: both sides have "privileges" of a sort as well as disadvantages, but i think women today have slightly more in their corner in terms of social advantages.
I definitely believe there is male privilege. I deal with it all the time. I made a thread about being talked down to and mansplained. And it makes no difference if you know more about something than a guy does, he's still going to mansplain it to you. Guys will listen to what another guy is saying but they dismiss or ignore women. I can be talking to my dad or brother and they look at me and nod but I can tell they aren't listening to a word I'm saying. And guys sometimes act like a woman is intruding if she tries to comment on something they are talking about. More than once when my grandpa is talking to my dad or brother and I make a comment he has said " Julia, men are talking. Make yourself useful and get me a drink". Lot's of women here will tell you about having men treat them like they are total idiots. This is just one example of male privilege.
Here's an interesting article about racism and how people experience it when transitioning.
Becoming a Black Man
http://www.colorlines.com/articles/becoming-black-man
Hey Julia, would you listen to anything your brother would said on fashion or makeup? Would your grandpa jump into a conversation between you and your mother on some female subject?
And generally speaking, your experiences are indicative of your family, not necessarily are a general rule ;)
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Btw, I believe there's some male privilege. I think it comes with motherhood, physical strength of males, and their lack of desire to do domestic chores and actively participate in mundane day-to-day activities around the house.
I think those though are asymmetrically compensated with more support given to women from their partners, higher flexibility and protection in society and ability to have more pampering and fun.
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I also believe that trans-people upon transition lose their part of the privilege, yet don't automatically gain the other gender privileges automatically (both for MTF and FTM). Also, if you don't fit into a stereotypical box, even being cis might limit amount of your privileges (i.e. physically weak male won't be considered worthy of an opinion unless they have proven in the past they had brains - they will be overlooked similarly (if not worse) as women. Equally, women who cannot pull the feminine beauty look at least occasionally - lack some serious tools in their tool box.
So, your average MTF might be on equal footing with those less attractive women; your average stereotypical ftm might be on a lower end of the society totem pole because they might lack the physical body size.
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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on October 09, 2017, 06:33:20 AM
What I'm saying is there's a way bigger chance for a woman to be assaulted/raped etc than a man.
There's another thread an FTM guy made about all he learnt growing as a girl and half of the things he said was basically that women learn they need to be aware of their surroundings and security pretty much all the time. Especially around men. This does not happen with guys. I am MTF but have been living as a guy for 29 years, and of course I need to take care of myself and growing up my mom always warned me to be careful about things, but nowhere near as often or as intense as any of the girls I've known in my life. Most women I've known don't like walking by themselves at night, avoid taking a cab by themselves, avoid being in a group where they are vastly outnumbered by men they don't know, etc...The list goes on and on.
I've heard countless women complain about being "mansplained". Even here, MTF women complain that as soon as they transition, it's like they suddenly became idiots in the eyes of men. Have never heard of guys complaining about the same, nor have I heard the term "womansplained".
See, now from the girls I know they have no issue being independent and doing things on their own ans being out all hours of the night, even at my job, sometimes the manager will leave and I have had female co workers that would be stuck waiting and I would ask if they needed me to wait with them and they would say no, my own sister is very independent and has no issues going late at night as a matter of fact she was always out, my mom actually gets on me more about being out at night then she ever did with my sister and I am 20 years old, my mom doesn't like me walking at night either and basically said because of me identifying as male and being black that's not safe but I personally don't feel anyone should walk alone at night by themselves, male or female and see the assumption is still that men can't or shouldn't be afraid.
I think women do have a tendency to do stupid things and I am one of those guys that have called women stupid but I have actual legitment reason for that, now as far as the other men that call women dumb, I am not entirely sure but for me atleast, I have my reasons.
The stats regarding less-pay-for-same-work are largely misquoted by politicians (fortunately). There is a discrepancy, but it is a comparatively smaller one and in some studies even within the margin of error. The statistic often quoted placing female wages around 70%-80% of male wages is a misstatement, as the actual stat is roughly women make 70%-80% of men's total income, not for the same job for the same hours at the same skill. That stat is usually placed in the 90% range (which while it should be 0%, is a far cry from 30%). The income gap is attributed to the disproportionate number of men in higher paying non-executive jobs (hazard pay usually), the number of men serving in executive positions, and that women often work fewer hours on average (are more likely work part time period, plus take longer leaves). I think the biggest true issue here goes to the second point in the list, in the number of men versus women serving in executive positions. The other two are largely individual, but it is a huge cultural red flag with the executive balance. I won't bother linking here, but politifacts, forbes, and countless sites have articles covering all of this from various angles and with too many different numbers to begin to get into, but in general the wage gap just isn't the end-all cultural dilemma it is made out to be and I worry largely distracts from the bigger issues regarding women in the workplace.
Anyway, that aside...
I've always been a little confused by the notion of male privilege since I never really experienced it myself. (Partly because I didn't do anything, partly because even at "most male" I was never the slightest bit alpha.) I have seen at least one major instance involving it, but then I've also seen a handful of instances involving female privilege. In the first case, it was involving a classic southern US "good ol' boys club" with divorce lawyers and a judge screwing my mom over royally. But then in general, it is often thought that women get the better deal in divorce settlements, particularly custody hearings, so I don't know if this is the best example. For an instance of the female privilege, well, recently my little sister was in a car accident that was 100% her fault. But she's a cute little white girl, and so she walked away without the slightest repercussion. She wasn't even trying to get out of it, it happened entirely on its own. This is pretty common around here apparently. (Though at the same time, is also a bit patronizing.)
For the most part I believe that there is some inherent privilege along with some inherent bad about being both male and female, and also that it may vary heavily based on race/ethnicity/religion/etc. Playing into Brandon's original post, there are countless negatives that come along with being specifically a black male in the US. Cultural preconceptions leading to higher incarceration rates, suspicion even in the most innocent circumstances, starker unemployment, and so forth, which are issues that largely do not extend to black women, at least not to the same degree. (Make no mistake, if a black male had been in my sister's place, he probably would have spent the night in county lock-up.)
An example of bias against men that has always rankled me is the way people assume that all guys are predators with children. I love kids, and kids love me. But because of how I presented myself in life as male, any interaction I had with children I had to be extremely careful about. (Often this meant playing it in such a way that made it seem as though I was inconvenienced but being a good sport about it if children spoke to me, when in reality I loved the interaction and found them adorable.) This simply isn't an issue for those presenting as a woman, which I always found very unfair.
Quote from: Roll on October 09, 2017, 01:01:12 PM
The stats regarding less-pay-for-same-work are largely misquoted by politicians (fortunately). There is a discrepancy, but it is a comparatively smaller one and in some studies even within the margin of error. The statistic often quoted placing female wages around 70%-80% of male wages is a misstatement, as the actual stat is roughly women make 70%-80% of men's total income, not for the same job for the same hours at the same skill. That stat is usually placed in the 90% range (which while it should be 0%, is a far cry from 30%). The income gap is attributed to the disproportionate number of men in higher paying non-executive jobs (hazard pay usually), the number of men serving in executive positions, and that women often work fewer hours on average (are more likely work part time period, plus take longer leaves). I think the biggest true issue here goes to the second point in the list, in the number of men versus women serving in executive positions. The other two are largely individual, but it is a huge cultural red flag with the executive balance. I won't bother linking here, but politifacts, forbes, and countless sites have articles covering all of this from various angles and with too many different numbers to begin to get into, but in general the wage gap just isn't the end-all cultural dilemma it is made out to be and I worry largely distracts from the bigger issues regarding women in the workplace.
Anyway, that aside...
I've always been a little confused by the notion of male privilege since I never really experienced it myself. (Partly because I didn't do anything, partly because even at "most male" I was never the slightest bit alpha.) I have seen at least one major instance involving it, but then I've also seen a handful of instances involving female privilege. In the first case, it was involving a classic southern US "good ol' boys club" with divorce lawyers and a judge screwing my mom over royally. But then in general, it is often thought that women get the better deal in divorce settlements, particularly custody hearings, so I don't know if this is the best example. For an instance of the female privilege, well, recently my little sister was in a car accident that was 100% her fault. But she's a cute little white girl, and so she walked away without the slightest repercussion. She wasn't even trying to get out of it, it happened entirely on its own. This is pretty common around here apparently. (Though at the same time, is also a bit patronizing.)
For the most part I believe that there is some inherent privilege along with some inherent bad about being both male and female, and also that it may vary heavily based on race/ethnicity/religion/etc. Playing into Brandon's original post, there are countless negatives that come along with being specifically a black male in the US. Cultural preconceptions leading to higher incarceration rates, suspicion even in the most innocent circumstances, starker unemployment, and so forth, which are issues that largely do not extend to black women, at least not to the same degree. (Make no mistake, if a black male had been in my sister's place, he probably would have spent the night in county lock-up.)
An example of bias against men that has always rankled me is the way people assume that all guys are predators with children. I love kids, and kids love me. But because of how I presented myself in life as male, any interaction I had with children I had to be extremely careful about. (Often this meant playing it in such a way that made it seem as though I was inconvenienced but being a good sport about it if children spoke to me, when in reality I loved the interaction and found them adorable.) This simply isn't an issue for those presenting as a woman, which I always found very unfair.
I've seen that happen. I've seen woman pull their children closer when they see a guy coming toward them. And if you see an adult male talking to a child people do assume he's a perve. But I would be a hypocrite if I said I didn't pay extra attention to a man talking to a child if it's not like obvious he's their dad. I will also admit that having a guy walk behind me in a deserted space or at night makes me very nervous. The reason people Don't worry about women is because it's very rare for a female to be a pedophile and a female can't rape someone.
I think both Genders have their set of difficulties, now from my experience here's what I find; so much more is expected of you as a man, that's first and foremost. Here is a list of the thungs that I find.
1. Women are not looked down upon for beating on men and talking about stabbing us men but we are cowards if we hit a woman, now I don't think anyone should be hitting anybody but why is it okay for a woman to be all in my face beating on me or putting their finger in my face and she's seen as the strong independent woman but I am the coward if I hit her once, why is it okay for a woman to talk about beating a mans ass but not vice versa?And I have had that last part happen recently.
2. Women can express themselves way more then men, now I already talked about this but emotionaly I have issues expressing how I feel about things, I have an issue about actually crying. I have a tendency to hold stuff in and let it bottle up but its because of this notion that men expressing themselves in that manner is wrong and even women sometimes call men gay for trying to open up about how they feel about certain situations but women can freely cry and tell everyone how they feel. I have only ever cried to one girl and that was my ex and she always cussed me about because I wouldn't talk to her about certain things.
3. How about the bathroom laws reguarding trans folks, all the women pin point their focus on the little girls but no one cares about the little boys. Its always I don't want my daughter in the bathroom with a male predator which, I wouldn't either but that goes for my son as well.
4. You could be a average looking dude and a womam still wouldn't give you the time of day but a woman that's less attractive has a better chance at finding a man who would give them the time of day and I am talking sex wise and relationship wise.
5. The assumption that men don't get raped or molested
6. The assumption again that, I shouldn't have to worry about walking alone at night or being assaulted or anything
Those are just a few though, the list goes on.
Quote from: Brandon on October 09, 2017, 02:13:36 PM
I think both Genders have their set of difficulties, now from my experience here's what I find; so much more is expected of you as a man, that's first and foremost. Here is a list of the thungs that I find.
1. Women are not looked down upon for beating on men and talking about stabbing us men but we are cowards if we hit a woman, now I don't think anyone should be hitting anybody but why is it okay for a woman to be all in my face beating on me or putting their finger in my face and she's seen as the strong independent woman but I am the coward if I hit her once, why is it okay for a woman to talk about beating a mans ass but not vice versa?And I have had that last part happen recently.
2. Women can express themselves way more then men, now I already talked about this but emotionaly I have issues expressing how I feel about things, I have an issue about actually crying. I have a tendency to hold stuff in and let it bottle up but its because of this notion that men expressing themselves in that manner is wrong and even women sometimes call men gay for trying to open up about how they feel about certain situations but women can freely cry and tell everyone how they feel. I have only ever cried to one girl and that was my ex and she always cussed me about because I wouldn't talk to her about certain things.
3. How about the bathroom laws reguarding trans folks, all the women pin point their focus on the little girls but no one cares about the little boys. Its always I don't want my daughter in the bathroom with a male predator which, I wouldn't either but that goes for my son as well.
4. You could be a average looking dude and a womam still wouldn't give you the time of day but a woman that's less attractive has a better chance at finding a man who would give them the time of day and I am talking sex wise and relationship wise.
5. The assumption that men don't get raped or molested
6. The assumption again that, I shouldn't have to worry about walking alone at night or being assaulted or anything
Those are just a few though, the list goes on.
I totally agree with you about women beating the crap out of a guy and getting away with it. I think a woman should face equal punishment for spouse abuse. My dad has responded to domestic violence calls where the woman has beaten up the man. The problem is that a lot of guys don't want to admit a woman beat them up. My dad has had a guy lie and say his wife didn't do anything to him when his face is totally messed up and her only injury is cut and bruised knuckles.
I agree also that women are allowed to express emotion much more freely. As totally sad as that is I have zero sympathy. It is self imposed and deserves no sympathy. From the time a male child starts walking they are told by other males that crying is wrong and boys don't cry. As they get older they are taught that being emotional is a sign of weakness. It's an emotional prison guys create for themselves.
I'm not saying men don't get molested, they do. But the only way for a guy to be raped is by another guy. It's extremely rare that a woman is going to stalk a guy, overpower him and rape him. Women usually don't have the strength to take down a grown man. And raping him is next to impossible unless she's wearing a strap on. Rape is about subjugation and power. Most women don't have strong tendencies for those .
I think both sides of the coin have legitimate struggles and benefits. Actual feminism is/was supposed to bring attention to each side's struggles but has gotten a little murky.
_____
EX (the upside): Women are allowed to express emotions, cry feely, love freely and are just generally encouraged to be 'feeling' beings.
The downside: Women are encouraged to be this way because they're assumed to be weak and in lesser control of their emotions at large to the point of being almost child-like.
_____
Opposite EX (the upside): Men are taught from a young age that they're strong and capable both mentally and physically and shouldn't waste any time on emotions.
The downside: Men are chastised and sometimes completely ostracized from other men (and women) for showing emotions because such displays are feminizing.
This means that a man who doesn't fit into the typical male standard is considered lesser than by his peers and a woman that goes against the grain of femininity is considered off-putting/harsh to her peers.
Both of these things are directly or indirectly caused by the general belief that women are weaker.
If you're a man and you act like a "woman" you deserve to be treated as such.
If you're a woman and you "rise above your lot", you need to be culled.
Men don't benefit from these assumptions any more than women do.
Quote from: Brandon on October 09, 2017, 04:17:53 AM
So I came across a video on Youtube about Transmen talking about male privilege, I found it interesting as I disagreed with all of their points, now me personally, I feel like women have it way easier and that there is no "Male Privilege" as a matter fact as a black male, it just makes it 10 times worse in my experience. I'd love to hear everyone elses oppinion and I'd also be willing to give mine. I'll leave a link to the video, hopefully it will work.
There is some sort of male and female "privilege", in a generalized sense. Although nobody is guaranteed to get any of it.
In terms of just who is better off in society overall, I would say women are generally cared for by society more than men are, generally brutalized and killed less than men are, and generally not held to as harsh a standard as men are. When it comes down to the essentials of life, we all know who is considered expendable and who isn't, and in my view it's more 'privileged' to be considered more valuable than expendable.
If anyone has ever read the picture book "Squids Will Be Squids" as a kid there is a great little story in there called "Hand, Foot, and Tongue" where each respective body part tells the other two why they have "the toughest job." Of course no one wins this debate and the whole thing is dropped after particularly disgusting description of tongue's job. But the point is, we can go back and forth forever about how hard it is to be ourselves. Whether or not men or women have more or less privilege is a silly argument, in my mind, because no consensus is reached because it seems like no one wants to admit to having any sort of privilege whatsoever. We're better off seeking out injustice and fixing it so all people can live a satisfying life.
I believe there are a couple of reasons why the debate is important. Without the awareness of privilege the causes and outcomes of it are not addressed. Attitudes in humanity always change, sometimes slow, sometimes not completely but they do change.
There is privilege that intersects and there is oppression that intersects. It some cases you have one offset the other. Privilege creates oppression, many times without knowing but sometimes it is known. Privilege is kin to racism, sexism, ableism.
To be sure women do have some privileges that men do not, but I and many others believe they pale in comparison to the male version. This is a big reason i am a feminist. To drive equality.
Loss of privilege needn't be a negative thing. Equality for all does not mean less rights for some.
Every category and demographic of human being has privilege in some ways and simultaneously are disadvantaged in others. The key is how do the disadvantages affect that groups' well being in general. If you are part of a group that historically has the most power you most likely come out more favorably in this regard. Therefore I do believe that individuals who are either male, white, or heterosexual live with inherent privilege over the "opposite" demographic.
The disadvantages I live with as a man do not negatively impact my life nearly as much as the disadvantages a woman faces in my opinion. That in of itself is privilege.
Quote from: CMD042414 on October 09, 2017, 06:58:41 PM
Every category and demographic of human being has privilege in some ways and simultaneously are disadvantaged in others. The key is how do the disadvantages affect that groups' well being in general. If you are part of a group that historically has the most power you most likely come out more favorably in this regard. Therefore I do believe that individuals who are either male, white, or heterosexual live with inherent privilege over the "opposite" demographic.
The disadvantages I live with as a man do not negatively impact my life nearly as much as the disadvantages a woman faces in my opinion. That in of itself is privilege.
I absolutely agree.
Quote from: CMD042414 on October 09, 2017, 06:58:41 PM
Every category and demographic of human being has privilege in some ways and simultaneously are disadvantaged in others. The key is how do the disadvantages affect that groups' well being in general.
I have to say, I agree and I think that was a great way to explain it.
I would also add, although I'm not sure if everyone would see it the same way, that having privelage isn't necessarily a bad thing unless it infringes on others' rights. But then it makes you wonder if everyone was treated equally, as they should be, would there be such a thing as privelage at all? I guess there would be and it would just shift to something other than race and gender.
I saw something earlier in the thread about "mansplaining" too. There is such a thing as "womansplaining", I've just never heard it called that. The majority of my coworkers are female and it seems to be the general consensus among them that men are inherently stupid. My previous two bosses were female and talked down to their male employees constantly. Spend enough time around any straight married couple for long enough and you'll witness "womansplaining" first hand but usually then it's called "nagging". It seems like adults these days haven't grow out of the elementary school idea that "boys have cooties and are stupid" and vice versa. Both parties do it and being transgender has allowed me to experience it from both sides.
One could argue that trans women continue to benefit from some of the biological privileges of being natal males. For example, we do not have to worry about unplanned pregnancies in case we are sexually assaulted.
Quote from: Allie24 on October 10, 2017, 08:33:35 AM
One could argue that trans women continue to benefit from some of the biological privileges of being natal males. For example, we do not have to worry about unplanned pregnancies in case we are sexually assaulted.
This argument is quite shaky.
a) cis-women have different birth control options to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
b) hiv and aids are no lesser evils and cannot be prevented for either
c) the big deal about rape is physical violence and loss of the control over your body, and it applies to both.
Quote from: elkie-t on October 10, 2017, 09:08:48 AM
This argument is quite shaky.
a) cis-women have different birth control options to prevent unwanted pregnancies.
b) hiv and aids are no lesser evils and cannot be prevented for either
c) the big deal about rape is physical violence and loss of the control over your body, and it applies to both.
I don't think it is.
Being that unwanted pregnancy is an impossibility for us, we do not have to spend the money that cis women do on birth control, and while yes, the violence and loss of control of body is a negative consequence that applies to both parties, we don't have the added anxiety of having an unwanted pregnancy, or having to pay for an abortion, or in the case that abortion is not an option, having to carry the child and birth it and deal with the consequences of that.
I honestly really hate the term "priveledge" in terms of social politics, it's oftentimes used in such a way to place minorities on a pedestal rather than achieving equality.
The phrase "Check your priveledge" is often used towards men, but It's not like every single man is inherently responsible for the sexism other men portray, especially when they themselves are for equality and do not actually belittle or delegitimize women's rights and power.
Men have it better in a lot of ways and for years and years in the previous era women have been at disadvantages, which is great that out society has moved forward so much! But saying males dont have any issues whatsoever in the face of society is also very lopsided, gender roles in society affect EVERYONE
Things like
*Men are expected not to show as much emotion, less they be considered weak
*Men have to be in charge
*Men cannot have sensitive interests like acting, gardening, decorating, knitting
*If men do have feminine interests, they are considered gay instead of just men
*Men do not have the freedom to express feminine clothing styles publically without scorn, when women can get away with it and be tomboyish
*Men are expected to be tough and able to win fights, rather than timid and lose fights
*Men are expected to take care of the women in the relationship
Unfair standards do exist for both sexes, so by fighting for women's rights, we would also be fighting for gender equality for men. Those sexist standards dont need to be there
I think it is overblown and wrong. Men and women have pros and cons due to gender roles. I think it is important to discuss both rather than one side in order to figure out the problems.
Woman are indeed very pampered in our society and much more is expected by men. Men are seen as sexual perverts, weak, and evil if they do not fit into their gender roles while society does not care if a woman takes on more masculine roles.
I think the dictomony is that women and infantalized while men are expected to always be cog in the wheel. When someone is infantalized the pros are that they are pampered, are expected to be protected, and are allowed to be emotional and have their emotions and concerns taken seriously. They can be seen as victims whether they really are or not. They basically are the identifiers of anything threatning. The cons though are that they are not taken as seriously when it comes to decisions, skill, and work because who expects a child to have such responsibility? They are seen as weaker and incapable of doing things on their own which stumps drive for individual accomplishment.
The pros to someone having hyper-responsibility (cog in the wheel) is that they are taken seriously due to assumptions that they are self-made and because of this tend to have higher accomplishments. When one has no security(unlike the infantalized) they have freedom and risk-taking choices. They are seen as strong, capable, and have leadership skill. The cons though is that their emotions and concerns are ignored. They are not protected and so their lives are expendable and are not as important. When something goes wrong they cannot blame it on something else, they can never be a victim of anything. They are expected to put their life on the line for the infantalized at any cost. In a paradox, they have more freedom and power yet have to sacrifice all of it to the infantalized. They are the ones who protect those from whatever is threating or are threatning.
I could go more in depth but that would be even more rambling.
Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on October 10, 2017, 11:48:51 AM
I honestly really hate the term "priveledge" in terms of social politics, it's oftentimes used in such a way to place minorities on a pedestal rather than achieving equality.
The phrase "Check your priveledge" is often used towards men, but It's not like every single man is inherently responsible for the sexism other men portray, especially when they themselves are for equality and do not actually belittle or delegitimize women's rights and power.
Men have it better in a lot of ways and for years and years in the previous era women have been at disadvantages, which is great that out society has moved forward so much! But saying males dont have any issues whatsoever in the face of society is also very lopsided, gender roles in society affect EVERYONE
Things like
*Men are expected not to show as much emotion, less they be considered weak
*Men have to be in charge
*Men cannot have sensitive interests like acting, gardening, decorating, knitting
*If men do have feminine interests, they are considered gay instead of just men
*Men do not have the freedom to express feminine clothing styles publically without scorn, when women can get away with it and be tomboyish
*Men are expected to be tough and able to win fights, rather than timid and lose fights
*Men are expected to take care of the women in the relationship
Unfair standards do exist for both sexes, so by fighting for women's rights, we would also be fighting for gender equality for men. Those sexist standards dont need to be there
How much of was created by and is perpetuated by MEN though? If a man does any of the things you mentioned he will shunned by OTHER MEN.
Quote from: RoryM on October 10, 2017, 12:40:29 PM
I think it is overblown and wrong. Men and women have pros and cons due to gender roles. I think it is important to discuss both rather than one side in order to figure out the problems.
Woman are indeed very pampered in our society and much more is expected by men. Men are seen as sexual perverts, weak, and evil if they do not fit into their gender roles while society does not care if a woman takes on more masculine roles.
I think the dictomony is that women and infantalized while men are expected to always be cog in the wheel. When someone is infantalized the pros are that they are pampered, are expected to be protected, and are allowed to be emotional and have their emotions and concerns taken seriously. They can be seen as victims whether they really are or not. They basically are the identifiers of anything threatning. The cons though are that they are not taken as seriously when it comes to decisions, skill, and work because who expects a child to have such responsibility? They are seen as weaker and incapable of doing things on their own which stumps drive for individual accomplishment.
The pros to someone having hyper-responsibility (cog in the wheel) is that they are taken seriously due to assumptions that they are self-made and because of this tend to have higher accomplishments. When one has no security(unlike the infantalized) they have freedom and risk-taking choices. They are seen as strong, capable, and have leadership skill. The cons though is that their emotions and concerns are ignored. They are not protected and so their lives are expendable and are not as important. When something goes wrong they cannot blame it on something else, they can never be a victim of anything. They are expected to put their life on the line for the infantalized at any cost. In a paradox, they have more freedom and power yet have to sacrifice all of it to the infantalized. They are the ones who protect those from whatever is threating or are threatning.
I could go more in depth but that would be even more rambling.
Again, I argue that men are largely responsible for creating this setup.
Quote from: CMD042414 on October 10, 2017, 06:18:41 PM
Again, I argue that men are largely responsible for creating this setup.
I think the questions that begs are what percentage of men are truly responsible, and if that percentage can be considered to be a fair representation for men in general. A powerful/dominant minority can certainly influence a weaker/passive majority. Historically, it is the classic "alpha males" who set the standards for society, by some means of power, physical or other, and who are probably most likely to engage in perpetuating these standards for other men. It could be said that the other men let this happen, but then the same could also be said of women. To put this in another context, I would compare it to the view of Islam in that a radical minority has often dictated society for the majority non-radical population (not specifically referring to terrorism here, but society and culture in general, ie: laws against dancing in some countries). And it certainly at least isn't fair to judge the whole based on the minority in that case, so I'd be hesitant about doing the same with men in general. To offer a counter to this (I'm not really taking a side on it, just sort of thinking it through) I would however be remiss in not mentioning the case of Germans during WWII, in which while a sizable portion of citizens (perhaps not a majority, it is very difficult to say) may not have supported the Nazi's actions in full, they did not act against them either. In that case, they are often are held at least partially responsible for their inaction. I don't know if any of this even makes much sense, I'm sort of meandering through this while bored and looking for something to do. :D
Biology is ultimately responsible for it. Not "men" as a group.
Strip everything down to a survival situation. A group of men, women and children with minimal provisions and resources. Someone must defend the group from threats. Someone must go out into the wilderness and kill food. Do you send the men out to do those things? Or do you send the women and the children to do dangerous and arduous tasks better suited to the bodies of the men? Do you think the women would volunteer to do that stuff and take their children with them to go hunt dangerous game, or face down an enemy tribe? Do women generally do this - offer to go out and do dangerous things or hard labor - or is it the men "keeping them down"? Fast forward to today when there is more ability than ever before for women to go into the military or do labor-intensive jobs if they choose and no-one is forcing them either way. What do they choose to do? on the whole, they do not choose to do these jobs, but prefer more comfortable, gentler work. Is this men's fault?
The infantilization of women is two-way. Men have nearly always been expected to put themselves between danger and a woman and her child, by women as much as by men. How many women would not expect this, that you know of? How many would expect a man to stand there and let her be menaced by a threat, or not carry heavy luggage for her, or not help her when she is heavily pregnant and not as agile as normal? Would such a man be considered "a good man" by women's standards? No. And such is the result of this biological "team", that this biology has informed our culture and cultural attitudes. It is not "men" doing this on purpose, it is men doing this because on the whole, keeping women safe from harm and doing the jobs that clearly put more of a burden on a woman than a man makes biological and logical sense. And if you have to be the one defending and working harder work, it has come to mean that men preside over matters of defense and physical labor, for the most part, and women preside and rule over the matters of children, and wherever they happen to spend most of their time doing that. (Show me a man that tells his wife or girlfriend how best to look after her own baby and is taken seriously by any social group. Show me a man who gets to "choose the wallpaper" instead of his wife, figuratively speaking).
Men are "in charge" traditionally because they were the ones way back in that tribal situation who were standing around without children hanging off them and whose job it was to co-ordinate safety, warfare, etc. But it's perfectly arguable women are as much "in charge" of any society by way of the next generation being in their hands, or by way of them choosing who even gets to reproduce with them. Women generally rule different aspects of society, but nobody rules every inch of it. Certainly not men. Men have become what they are largely because women require it. That includes being a species where we live in family units, where a father generally remains present to help take care of offspring, or is required to help pay for that offspring. Men - and culture - are also shaped by women's needs.
And why are men held to higher standards than women by other men? Whether you're talking about that tribal group, the modern military, the workplace, wherever... men have been the ones who had to get certain things done, and their survival depended on teamwork and performance. A soldier who didn't feel like fighting that day or was afraid might get an entire group killed. Men police other men not because it's necessarily some conscious, finely-calculated prejudice, but because it's probably in the DNA and instincts from thousands of years of this setup of men having to work in male-only teams, and having to bond based on shared values and motivations. That's why the gay guy gets picked on. That's why the "sissy" gets shunned. Because they are different and do not share the values and motivation of the others. It's not a nice thing, this nonacceptance of the different, but it is probably what powered the survival of our species in some ways. Biology is not a consciously nice thing, it's a cruel thing in many cases, but it is what it is.
So if you want to blame men for doing these things, you have to also blame biology, and you may also have to blame women for not wanting to do the exact same jobs and duties that men do. Because someone has to do them if they won't. I don't hear many women aspiring to be trash-collectors, sewage workers, day laborers, oil drillers, or cannon fodder. And I don't think that's because "the men are keeping them from it" any more. It's apparently because most of them don't seem to want to do these things. In countries with the greatest degree of freedom for a woman to choose her career, oddly enough, you don't find them lining up to do these things in greater numbers, despite vigorous encouragement programs to get women into new fields. You find them doing it in greater numbers in harsh environments where there is less choice and greater pressure to earn money to survive.
This topic is a lot more complex than "everything is men's fault because men rule everything". Men do not rule everything, at all. If they did, they generally wouldn't have to make themselves attractive to a woman's tastes or help a woman in any way in order to pass on their genes. They would only have to rape and walk away. And we are not a species that does that, for the vast part. Why do so many men on this forum and others ask about how to be an attractive man to a woman, and why do men everywhere bust their balls trying to be fit and successful and attractive? Well what's the point of that if we men just rule everything anyway? Just go and take what you want because it's a man's god-given privilege, and no negative consequences will possibly come of it. But wait, that's not how it works. . . you'd be locked up, and you certainly won't be an attractive long-term mate if you bring nothing to the table but that.
Women have far more power than many people can see or are willing to admit. Just because it isn't overt, or flashed in your face, doesn't mean it's not there. In fact, the power you don't see or notice is even more powerful than the one you do because it will not be recognized or challenged for what it is. Which is exactly what happens whenever there is a question about who is really in charge. Oh the men, of course. Bigger and stronger and always kings and presidents and bosses! Everything they do is only ever for themselves and they're a menace to everyone including themselves - for some... nebulous reason nobody wants to explain. So no man ever worked hard all his life to support his family, no man ever picked up a weapon to defend them or went to war for anything other than a thrill, no man ever dedicated himself to success so she'd put a ring on him, or got his teeth knocked out defending her honor. Everything he does is nefarious in nature. Man is, through and through, an entirely self-serving and self-harming creature that when harm befalls him, is always in some way deserved. Because he apparently planned the roles and responsibilities that nature doled out to him, and took the shape that was demanded to survive. Clearly he planned culture, rather than it springing from the circumstance in which humans found themselves, and he gets to dictate exactly how it flows, at each moment.
No. Not everything is men's fault, or men's design, or men's conspiracy. If it was, don't you think we'd have improved our own lot, by now?
Quote from: CMD042414 on October 10, 2017, 06:17:51 PM
How much of was created by and is perpetuated by MEN though? If a man does any of the things you mentioned he will shunned by OTHER MEN.
I strongly disagree with you there bro, maybe that's how it started out but there alot of women who prepetuate that idea, just go look at facebook and you will see, especially the younger girls.
Quote from: Viktor on October 10, 2017, 07:23:11 PM
Biology is ultimately responsible for it. Not "men" as a group.
Strip everything down to a survival situation. A group of men, women and children with minimal provisions and resources. Someone must defend the group from threats. Someone must go out into the wilderness and kill food. Do you send the men out to do those things? Or do you send the women and the children to do dangerous and arduous tasks better suited to the bodies of the men? Do you think the women would volunteer to do that stuff and take their children with them to go hunt dangerous game, or face down an enemy tribe? Do women generally do this - offer to go out and do dangerous things or hard labor - or is it the men "keeping them down"? Fast forward to today when there is more ability than ever before for women to go into the military or do labor-intensive jobs if they choose and no-one is forcing them either way. What do they choose to do? on the whole, they do not choose to do these jobs, but prefer more comfortable, gentler work. Is this men's fault?
The infantilization of women is two-way. Men have nearly always been expected to put themselves between danger and a woman and her child, by women as much as by men. How many women would not expect this, that you know of? How many would expect a man to stand there and let her be menaced by a threat, or not carry heavy luggage for her, or not help her when she is heavily pregnant and not as agile as normal? Would such a man be considered "a good man" by women's standards? No. And such is the result of this biological "team", that this biology has informed our culture and cultural attitudes. It is not "men" doing this on purpose, it is men doing this because on the whole, keeping women safe from harm and doing the jobs that clearly put more of a burden on a woman than a man makes biological and logical sense. And if you have to be the one defending and working harder work, it has come to mean that men preside over matters of defense and physical labor, for the most part, and women preside and rule over the matters of children, and wherever they happen to spend most of their time doing that. (Show me a man that tells his wife or girlfriend how best to look after her own baby and is taken seriously by any social group. Show me a man who gets to "choose the wallpaper" instead of his wife, figuratively speaking).
Men are "in charge" traditionally because they were the ones way back in that tribal situation who were standing around without children hanging off them and whose job it was to co-ordinate safety, warfare, etc. But it's perfectly arguable women are as much "in charge" of any society by way of the next generation being in their hands, or by way of them choosing who even gets to reproduce with them. Women generally rule different aspects of society, but nobody rules every inch of it. Certainly not men. Men have become what they are largely because women require it. That includes being a species where we live in family units, where a father generally remains present to help take care of offspring, or is required to help pay for that offspring. Men - and culture - are also shaped by women's needs.
And why are men held to higher standards than women by other men? Whether you're talking about that tribal group, the modern military, the workplace, wherever... men have been the ones who had to get certain things done, and their survival depended on teamwork and performance. A soldier who didn't feel like fighting that day or was afraid might get an entire group killed. Men police other men not because it's necessarily some conscious, finely-calculated prejudice, but because it's probably in the DNA and instincts from thousands of years of this setup of men having to work in male-only teams, and having to bond based on shared values and motivations. That's why the gay guy gets picked on. That's why the "sissy" gets shunned. Because they are different and do not share the values and motivation of the others. It's not a nice thing, this nonacceptance of the different, but it is probably what powered the survival of our species in some ways. Biology is not a consciously nice thing, it's a cruel thing in many cases, but it is what it is.
So if you want to blame men for doing these things, you have to also blame biology, and you may also have to blame women for not wanting to do the exact same jobs and duties that men do. Because someone has to do them if they won't. I don't hear many women aspiring to be trash-collectors, sewage workers, day laborers, oil drillers, or cannon fodder. And I don't think that's because "the men are keeping them from it" any more. It's apparently because most of them don't seem to want to do these things. In countries with the greatest degree of freedom for a woman to choose her career, oddly enough, you don't find them lining up to do these things in greater numbers, despite vigorous encouragement programs to get women into new fields. You find them doing it in greater numbers in harsh environments where there is less choice and greater pressure to earn money to survive.
This topic is a lot more complex than "everything is men's fault because men rule everything". Men do not rule everything, at all. If they did, they generally wouldn't have to make themselves attractive to a woman's tastes or help a woman in any way in order to pass on their genes. They would only have to rape and walk away. And we are not a species that does that, for the vast part. Why do so many men on this forum and others ask about how to be an attractive man to a woman, and why do men everywhere bust their balls trying to be fit and successful and attractive? Well what's the point of that if we men just rule everything anyway? Just go and take what you want because it's a man's god-given privilege, and no negative consequences will possibly come of it. But wait, that's not how it works. . . you'd be locked up, and you certainly won't be an attractive long-term mate if you bring nothing to the table but that.
Women have far more power than many people can see or are willing to admit. Just because it isn't overt, or flashed in your face, doesn't mean it's not there. In fact, the power you don't see or notice is even more powerful than the one you do because it will not be recognized or challenged for what it is. Which is exactly what happens whenever there is a question about who is really in charge. Oh the men, of course. Bigger and stronger and always kings and presidents and bosses! Everything they do is only ever for themselves and they're a menace to everyone including themselves - for some... nebulous reason nobody wants to explain. So no man ever worked hard all his life to support his family, no man ever picked up a weapon to defend them or went to war for anything other than a thrill, no man ever dedicated himself to success so she'd put a ring on him, or got his teeth knocked out defending her honor. Everything he does is nefarious in nature. Man is, through and through, an entirely self-serving and self-harming creature that when harm befalls him, is always in some way deserved. Because he apparently planned the roles and responsibilities that nature doled out to him, and took the shape that was demanded to survive. Clearly he planned culture, rather than it springing from the circumstance in which humans found themselves, and he gets to dictate exactly how it flows, at each moment.
No. Not everything is men's fault, or men's design, or men's conspiracy. If it was, don't you think we'd have improved our own lot, by now?
I think the biology argument is turned completely on its head by our existence. And to read your post you would think that we are all just acting out primal, evolutionary instincts. We are way more complex than me, man; her, woman. That's some loin cloth wearing, beating your chest with your fists stuff right there.
Like I said before are there privileges that women enjoy over men? Of freakin' course! I mean come on of course there are. But the key is how one group's set of privileges affects the opposite group. Historically and currently men have the outright advantage there. ESPECIALLY if you are talking globally. Like 100% globally.
I too disagree that there's a male privilege (in the strict sense). I haven't noticed a huge difference in how society has treated me before vs. after transitioning/passing as male, but some. People talk over me just as much as ever before, most people are kind and polite. But what has changed is that since passing I'm more frequently expected to take the first initiative, be strong, be protective, help people (especially women) out more. Also, and this is the thing that's the most disturbing to me: before transitioning I could easily and openly talk about my past experiences of having been through sexual abuse; people listened, showed care and wanted to comfort. But since after transitioning, not so much of that niceness. Now people are much more likely to be: embarrassed, awkward, completely silent, ignoring, or even laughing at me. Let's just say I can take it but I'd rather not.
Now I don't want to go all that deep into my opinions on gender equality/sexism in society, but yeah I don't believe in male privilege, or a patriarchy, so I'm not a feminist, but I do believe in equality for everyone regardless of gender. I agree with a lot of what you say Brandon, as well as others in this thread too. I think legally women have it better than men, but on more of a social aspect, that it's pretty much as bad/good for both but in different ways.
I've seen that video on youtube as well, a few times, a while ago, and it didn't make much sense to me either time. Like at one point in the video one of the guys says being told that "men don't wall out (dance) to Beyonce like that" -is a sign of male privilege... doesn't sound like much of an advantage to me.
Quote from: SeptagonScars on October 11, 2017, 02:29:24 AM
I too disagree that there's a male privilege (in the strict sense). I haven't noticed a huge difference in how society has treated me before vs. after transitioning/passing as male, but some. People talk over me just as much as ever before, most people are kind and polite. But what has changed is that since passing I'm more frequently expected to take the first initiative, be strong, be protective, help people (especially women) out more. Also, and this is the thing that's the most disturbing to me: before transitioning I could easily and openly talk about my past experiences of having been through sexual abuse; people listened, showed care and wanted to comfort. But since after transitioning, not so much of that niceness. Now people are much more likely to be: embarrassed, awkward, completely silent, ignoring, or even laughing at me. Let's just say I can take it but I'd rather not.
Now I don't want to go all that deep into my opinions on gender equality/sexism in society, but yeah I don't believe in male privilege, or a patriarchy, so I'm not a feminist, but I do believe in equality for everyone regardless of gender. I agree with a lot of what you say Brandon, as well as others in this thread too. I think legally women have it better than men, but on more of a social aspect, that it's pretty much as bad/good for both but in different ways.
I've seen that video on youtube as well, a few times, a while ago, and it didn't make much sense to me either time. Like at one point in the video one of the guys says being told that "men don't wall out (dance) to Beyonce like that" -is a sign of male privilege... doesn't sound like much of an advantage to me.
Dude I thought the same thing, I am like aren't you kind of contradicting yourself by saying that? Honestly I'd love to sit down and talk with those guys just because I find it so interesting that they believe that there is male privilege.
Quote from: CMD042414 on October 10, 2017, 09:49:14 PM
I think the biology argument is turned completely on its head by our existence. And to read your post you would think that we are all just acting out primal, evolutionary instincts. We are way more complex than me, man; her, woman. That's some loin cloth wearing, beating your chest with your fists stuff right there.
It might seem that way at first glance, but let's take a look at history.
Let's take the earliest supposed date of domestication of cattle first, which is at the end of the Mesolithic era, when domestication of plants and animals started, along with beginning of agriculture, while most peoples in this era still continued intensive hunting. We're talking around 10,000 years ago, so ~8000 BC.
Neolithic era, 6000 years ago / 4000 BC - earliest supposed dates of the domestication of the horse and chicken.
5700 years ago / 3700 BC - settlement in Maidanets, Ukraine that reached 12-46,000 inhabitants and had 3-storey buildings.
Humans started domesticating plants and animals 10,000 years ago and took them around 4000 years to figure out horses and chicken. One of the first animal-drawn plough-like tools was the ard, developed by Egyptians around 2800BC, meaning that for thousands of years, despite domesticating animals, peoples did their agriculture mostly by hand.
If we take that settlement in Maidanets, Ukraine that I mentioned above, it qualifies as a Town (population of 1000-20,000) and later as a Large Town (population of 20,000-100,000). That was ~5700 years ago. People have been living in societies from before that time, and people fulfilled different roles based on a lot of things.
Seems like based on a few of these examples, humanity develops rather slowly, no? I dont want to go too deep into history and we really dont have to go too far back.
Quote from: Viktor on October 10, 2017, 07:23:11 PM
Someone must defend the group from threats. Someone must go out into the wilderness and kill food. Do you send the men out to do those things? [...] Do women generally do this - offer to go out and do dangerous things or hard labor - or is it the men "keeping them down"?
[...] Men have nearly always been expected to put themselves between danger and a woman and her child, by women as much as by men. How many women would not expect this, that you know of?
[...] keeping women safe from harm and doing the jobs that clearly put more of a burden on a woman than a man makes biological and logical sense.
Quote from: Viktor on October 10, 2017, 07:23:11 PM
I don't hear many women aspiring to be trash-collectors, sewage workers, day laborers, oil drillers, or cannon fodder. And I don't think that's because "the men are keeping them from it" any more. It's apparently because most of them don't seem to want to do these things. In countries with the greatest degree of freedom for a woman to choose her career, oddly enough, you don't find them lining up to do these things in greater numbers, despite vigorous encouragement programs to get women into new fields.
During World War 1-2, who went to fight the battles? Back then women did not have the same rights as men, OK. In more recent wars however, in countries where women have already had the same rights as men, who joint the armies to go fight in battles?
Quote from: RobynD on October 09, 2017, 05:56:39 PM
[...] This is a big reason i am a feminist. To drive equality.
Loss of privilege needn't be a negative thing. Equality for all does not mean less rights for some.
Name one right a man has but a woman doesn't, in any of the countries in the West.
Women are not earning less than men, not when you compare the exact same job, exact same hours and exact same amount of holidays taken. Most women are not interested in working 40-60 hours a week, most women want to build a family, want to have kids, want to be mothers. You don't get to do both. You can either build a family or build a career. If you try to juggle both, you'll either have to work part time (your career will likely suffer) or you will have to somewhat neglect your kids. You simply do not have enough time and energy to do both.
Currently, a woman, if she wants to, can be a lawyer with a career-oriented life, but if she wants to, she can also choose to be a stay-at-home wife and no one will shun her. A straight male, however, has almost no chance of finding a woman who will be OK with him being a stay-at-home father, let alone a stay-at-home husband without kids. It's just not going to happen.
I didn't read the entire thread, just the first post, and didn't watch the video. I'm currently a 'cis' male (well non-transitioning mtf) and I have zero male privilege, and never had it.
Sure, there's male privilege, and there's female privilege all with their own perks and disappointments. I simply call the mess "Gender Based Privilege". But, there's also attractiveness privilege, race privilege, financial privilege, knowledge privilege, social privilege, and even luck privilege. Everyone has and/or gets ________ privilege when they fit into the lovely Pre-cast Box of Expectation™. That's just the way I see it. Oh the joys of expectations & stereotypes.
Me,the only privilege I have/had is being treated like a small stupid criminal child, and having to prove each and every little thing I say and/or do - constantly, to everybody.
Quote from: Alex81 on November 10, 2017, 05:27:01 AM
Sure, there's male privilege, and there's female privilege all with their own perks and disappointments. I simply call the mess "Gender Based Privilege". But, there's also attractiveness privilege, race privilege, financial privilege, knowledge privilege, social privilege, and even luck privilege. Everyone has and/or gets ________ privilege when they fit into the lovely Pre-cast Box of Expectation™. That's just the way I see it. Oh the joys of expectations & stereotypes.
Exactly, to the point. Well said, Alex!
And privileges change from place to place.
I'm trying to think of the best way to word the point I want to make, so forgive me if this is a little murky.
Thanks to feminism, there has been a shift. Male privilege is waning, for sure. If you consider where we are considered to the 50's or earlier, there has been progress. Women have more access to traditionally male jobs, etc. But the fact that people still say "male nurse" and "female doctor" is telling. Also, men are allowed to be more feminine and soft, etc. (Sidenote: do not blame women for the fact that men cannot be feminine; this is usually a standard set by other men, even if it is also perpetuated by women.)
I live in a small town, I almost always have. Male privilege is still rampant in the country (the saying goes that small towns are about 30 years behind big cities). Ye olde "smile, sweetie" etc. It's pretty bad, especially since I tend to work in male-centric jobs as the only apparent female (I am not out as transgender). I have in the past been paid less because my work is not as valued, I have been ignored when discussing how to do a job, men and women both have doubted my math skills and my ability to think logically and solve a problem, men constantly talk over me. They literally do not hear me even though others in the group are like "no, she was definitely talking and you just bulled in there." Men out here at least are not aware of how they talk over/ignore/mistreat women, and that is male privilege.
Male privilege is like racism. You do not have to be actively involved to benefit from it. I am white. I do my best not to act in a racist way, but I'm sure I slip up here and there due to ignorance. I don't act racist, but I do benefit from racism because I am white.
Men who do not act in a sexist way directly can and do still benefit from male privilege, which still exists. If myself, an apparent butch woman, and a masculine cisman both applied for the same job as a ranch hand, who do you think will get the job? Say we have the same experience, the same amount of muscle. If we both send in applications or resumes, or even make a phone call, the employer is likely to choose the man simply because he is a man, and man = ranch worker. One look at my female name, the sound of my feminine voice, and I'm out for no reason other than that. Did the male applicant act sexist in any way? No. But he still benefited from male privilege.
Edit: Let's look at the opposite. Say a man and a woman both apply to be a secretary in an office, both with the same experience, et cetera. Out here in the country, you see more female secretaries because a) it's seen as a woman's job, a subordinate role, etc. and b) the men are already working in more masculine, more widely available jobs such as working machinery, ranching, truck driving, etc. I suppose that's more gender roles, but male privilege comes from the perpetuation of antiquated gender roles/expectations.
I am fully aware that when I transition and begin to pass, I will start to benefit from male privilege. It has already happened in instances where I pass even though I'm pre-T. People give me favor over my femme and cis girlfriend. Already, I benefit/experience male privilege in that I didn't even notice this favor until my girlfriend pointed it out to me. I accepted that I gained favor because of my masculine appearance without realizing it, and that is male privilege.
As far as female privilege? That I cannot speak on because I haven't necessarily experienced or seen it first hand. In my experience, there is no female privilege. In my life I have been seen and used as a tool by many men, including those in my own family, because I am seen as female. This in part contributed to me wondering if I was really trans, or if I was just trying to escape being a woman because of how women are mistreated.
If you dont think male privelage exists, 99% chance you have it
Quote from: extraaction on November 16, 2017, 01:28:29 PM
If you dont think male privelage exists, 99% chance you have it
There are men with privilege, yes. But isn't it maybe just a little too broad and reductionist to say it is male, as in implying
all males, privilege? (At least insofar as that privilege exceeds the privilege of women.) I would also wonder that even if you did allow for it to be something applicable to all males without discrimination, if it is, in general, far less of an issue than other forms of privilege, such as racial and class privilege. For example: A poor black male may have male privilege... but more privilege on balance than a rich white woman? Definitely not. Even if you drop one of the three criteria and place the balance one to one... Poor male vs rich female, rich female "wins". Black male vs white female, white female "wins".
Quote from: Roll on November 16, 2017, 03:10:51 PM
There are men with privilege, yes. But isn't it maybe just a little too broad and reductionist to say it is male, as in implying all males, privilege? (At least insofar as that privilege exceeds the privilege of women.) I would also wonder that even if you did allow for it to be something applicable to all males without discrimination, if it is, in general, far less of an issue than other forms of privilege, such as racial and class privilege. For example: A poor black male may have male privilege... but more privilege on balance than a rich white woman? Definitely not. Even if you drop one of the three criteria and place the balance one to one... Poor male vs rich female, rich female "wins". Black male vs white female, white female "wins".
not even gonna touch that one
Quote from: extraaction on November 16, 2017, 04:18:07 PM
not even gonna touch that one
What? I said nothing controversial in the slightest, and only mentioned a common standard that class and racial discrimination (which is inherent due to privilege granted to certain groups by the common definition of privilege) causes more harm than gender privilege, and largely has been the basis for more violence and oppression than gender. As such, there are men that despite being men do not have cultural privilege, therefore calling into question whether or not "male privilege" should be held against all men, when there are many who are disenfranchised. Not seeing why this is a "not gonna touch" issue.
Quote from: Roll on November 16, 2017, 05:21:16 PM
What? I said nothing controversial in the slightest, and only mentioned a common standard that class and racial discrimination (which is inherent due to privilege granted to certain groups by the common definition of privilege) causes more harm than gender privilege, and largely has been the basis for more violence and oppression than gender. As such, there are men that despite being men do not have cultural privilege, therefore calling into question whether or not "male privilege" should be held against all men, when there are many who are disenfranchised. Not seeing why this is a "not gonna touch" issue.
Lol no you didnt. But Im not about to do the complicated sociological calculations just to inevitably be told how wrong I am. And trust me, nobody wants to get me started on "race"
All this "privilege" stuff is eventually going to come down to one thing - that people are individuals and the various groups of privilege that are being conjured up is going to exhaust the average person's patience so much it will eventually be thrown out.
Quote from: Viktor on November 17, 2017, 12:20:59 AM
All this "privilege" stuff is eventually going to come down to one thing - that people are individuals and the various groups of privilege that are being conjured up is going to exhaust the average person's patience so much it will eventually be thrown out.
You think? Im fond of "white male privelage"
Ive been clinging to as much of it as possible. Why would I give up something that helps me? I even bind and conduct more "sensative" business to get just a little more of it
Quote from: Charlie Nicki on October 09, 2017, 06:33:20 AM
I've heard countless women complain about being "mansplained". Even here, MTF women complain that as soon as they transition, it's like they suddenly became idiots in the eyes of men. Have never heard of guys complaining about the same, nor have I heard the term "womansplained".
That is so so true, I can only speak from my own experience, both male and female enjoyed privileges according to their gender, but definitely male privilege is more prevalent.
Not having male privilege anymore doesn't bother me, I do enjoy some female privileges, it's nice to be treated like a lady by a gentleman.
It's the inequality that bothers me and MANSPLAINED, only this week myself and hubby got a new printer, we were at the store and the sales guy when chatting with hubby completely ignored me, then I asked him a simple question about ink cartridges,he spoke to me like I was a school girl, then started to mansplain about the manual, then just rolled his eyes and said ''i've explained it all to your husband dear'' he treated me like I was a complete airhead idiot. Or resently my 3 brothers were over to our house with hubby for World Cup Qualifiers on TV, while they looked at the match I made coffee and sandwiches for them, but it was interesting, when I brought them in their coffee,sandwiches and beer, I felt they didn't want me there, this was a mans space, full of testosterone and yelling at the TV, I made an effort and ask my brother is the match exciting, he just gave me a blank stare and said and smiled ''it's ok, ah you wouldn't understand Pauline, too complicated to explain to girls'' I was so annoyed, it was very rude, but in hindsight I think he realized his gaff and he apologize afterwards. But it does come natural to men that women are inferior, they think all we think about is hair makeup and nail polish, but they are wrong, we are more intelligence than that and we're not respect as intelligence women only seen as airhead bimbos.
Quote from: pretty pauline on November 17, 2017, 04:04:08 PM
That is so so true, I can only speak from my own experience, both male and female enjoyed privileges according to their gender, but definitely male privilege is more prevalent.
Not having male privilege anymore doesn't bother me, I do enjoy some female privileges, it's nice to be treated like a lady by a gentleman.
It's the inequality that bothers me and MANSPLAINED, only this week myself and hubby got a new printer, we were at the store and the sales guy when chatting with hubby completely ignored me, then I asked him a simple question about ink cartridges,he spoke to me like I was a school girl, then started to mansplain about the manual, then just rolled his eyes and said ''i've explained it all to your husband dear'' he treated me like I was a complete airhead idiot. Or resently my 3 brothers were over to our house with hubby for World Cup Qualifiers on TV, while they looked at the match I made coffee and sandwiches for them, but it was interesting, when I brought them in their coffee,sandwiches and beer, I felt they didn't want me there, this was a mans space, full of testosterone and yelling at the TV, I made an effort and ask my brother is the match exciting, he just gave me a blank stare and said and smiled ''it's ok, ah you wouldn't understand Pauline, too complicated to explain to girls'' I was so annoyed, it was very rude, but in hindsight I think he realized his gaff and he apologize afterwards. But it does come natural to men that women are inferior, they think all we think about is hair makeup and nail polish, but they are wrong, we are more intelligence than that and we're not respect as intelligence women only seen as airhead bimbos.
LOL just put the worker in his place???? LOL again if he thought you were just "dumb arm candy" for your boyfriend then chances are the person was attracted to you trying to sell a new printer. :o Actually he has to do that for an out for his own attraction to you. ::)
Men are so easy because they love "airhead bimbos" and if they think you are it is so easy to control them or show them up. >:-) You have to decide though.
I am a blonde so I just play it up. But to me female privilege is way better than male privilege. With the female I can be lay and do not so much while males feel they have to protect me and help me. :embarrassed: It may sound like it sux but I have taken advantage of this during my job and in a bar or club for free drinks.
Privilege does not exist unless you are rich and have a trust fund. Paris Hilton is privileged. I am not.
I've been "womansplained to", by women who assume I know absolutely nothing about women or certain topics. You're a man so clearly you know nothing about sensitivity or empathy or femininity or diplomacy. You're a man so clearly you know nothing about children. Or interior design. Or the problems women have! Or the fear women have of your kind and what it's like to fear rape. Oh, and your opinion doesn't matter because you're a white male (imagine latter two words in the horror font of your choice). And so on ad nauseam.
But such treatment is all part of male privilege I'm sure.
If they irritate me enough I could destroy their illusions of superiority on all of those points. I know all about women, their bodies and their ways, how a woman may care to manipulate a man, and exactly what it's like to be one and have that power. Hardly need be said I find the general arrogance of women toward men as distasteful as I find it in men toward women. Many think men are stupid and gullible and have an underlying total disregard for them and their sufferings, and some currently delight in the situation that has been contrived in which white men are perceived to be the worst of all creatures and the origin of all woes. Such opportunistic and unempathetic bigots disgust me. It's surprising to see so much of it within the trans community, frankly. Among people who are best positioned for a wider field of view and who clearly can see that being male or female comes with advantages and disadvantages, a division of "hard" and "soft power" if you will, but power nonetheless. Some, I think, do indeed hate men and the trans community tolerates this far more than it tolerates any dislike or disparaging of women. There is often open man-hating and hypocrisy going on and I am not cowed nor ashamed to call it out.
Anecdotal at best but I tend to find that gay transmen deny the existence of or at least the negative affects of male privilege more than straight transmen. Only bringing this up because I recently had a debate about male privilege with a small group of trans friends, both mtf and ftm. Also my observation from random convos such as this here and there. I am not in any way saying I've conducted a peer reviewed study, just an observation.
Quote from: Viktor on November 18, 2017, 03:47:44 AM
Oh, and your opinion doesn't matter because you're a white male (imagine latter two words in the horror font of your choice).
Tyranny of labels.
By reducing people to labels to begin with, we encourage that sort of division and derisiveness, and inevitably judge people and place value on them based on their labels. If I were to walk into an average gender studies class presenting as I am now, I would be shunned, a pariah in the corner of the room. And heaven forbid if I were to speak up on anything, I'd be the target of every would-be feminist in the room. Because my labels, which to everyone there would include "straight" and "cis" as well. I'd just be one in another long line of "straight white cis male" whose opinion doesn't matter. Funny enough, only 1 of those things is true, and even that is more complex than the label makes it out to be. If I were to announce to the class I am a "pansexual white trans woman", suddenly I'm a hero (TERFs aside)... yet I would still be the same exact person I was before adopting that label, so why did my opinion not matter then?.
Look. Everyone has some level of privilege. Life sux for everyone sometimes. Personally I don't believe in anyone being Privileged for anything. I have never had that male privilege, I am not rich so I don't have that sort of privilege either. I have experienced "sissy" privilege though from guys that may or may not have been gay or wanting a "sissy's" attention. And they may have been nothing but just really good guys.
But everyone has a certain level of privilege for example I can call myself a ->-bleeped-<- but don't like it when others that are not call me that. I don't mind my friends calling me that because they aren't being mean about it. So that is Trans privilege.
Life sometimes sux but claiming others have privilege is kind of a way to show envy and I envy no one. My life has been hard and I have adapted and when knocked down got right back up and approached it differently to a point that was sort of the right choice for me. Oh yeah, try that male privilege with boobs and when everyone calls you female pronouns on the phone. Clearly I have no male privilege or female privilege but I sometimes do experience privilege but it is usually LGBT type or if someone don't know they may think female type such as guys helping me because they assume.
Those that are truly privileged are those born into riches and I was not. But even they have their own sucky lives they have to deal with because everything is relevant. Life always goes on and it truly is up to the individual person to make the most of it or not. So not even the richest among us have true privilege because privilege is an illusion. Life sometimes sux but it is how well that you handle it and make the best of it and then learn from it that truly gives a person wisdom and knowing how to handle life is what makes you somewhat happy. But you also have to work on yourself too and your own perceptions of yourself. You can't be bitter of other's successes and discount your own.
I know quite a few people and some of the "richest" that I do know have more problems than I have. But What do I know because I am just a middle aged trans woman that owns a few trucks and a couple of different properties but both have mobile home instead of nice houses. Maybe when I retire but I am pretty humble. You could say I am privileged now but I am not. I just worked really hard and still work really hard and still live from check to check. But I am happy because my happiness comes from within myself and knowing exactly who and what I am on the gender and sexuality scale.
So long story short, in my opinion privilege is just an illusion. Life is hard for everyone. Male privilege? Well my BF don't feel privileged at all. I have never experienced male privilege either. Even though I have the junk, I am a little different than a man. So I had to compensate with personality, acceptance and adaptation. I ended up choosing a profession that I could express myself in and now I own my own company. Being a MAAB I chose after the military to drive trucks. Very solitary job and very accepting of men with long hair and even "sissies" like me. Up to ten plus hours a day wearing women's clothing and could hide it until I decided not too any more. That job sux sometimes but I could at least express myself while doing it. No way could I have worked in an office or other career that I had to express myself opposite of my internal identity. Not at that time anyway. So you can say I was privileged but I chose to go through hell for that so called privilege because I lived for months at a time in a space that was smaller than a jail cell. I could wear my hair how I wanted, wear my ear rings and other jewelry openly and paint my nails and so on. Now I do the same things but don't go through quite the hell anymore like dangerous roads and traffic because I own the trucks and make a living and stay at home and on the phone if need be. I wheel and deal with brokers and bigger trucking companies yet they all call me Ma'am.
So what did that last part have to do with any kind of privilege? Nothing really but I chose to do a really miserable job just for my own self expression. I have been called a "sidewalk sissy" and other names but I have also been hit upon by other drivers as either trans or woman. But it was hell and dangerous at times and I gave up a lot and lived on the road all because I wanted to express myself for myself.
Jesus, I talk too much. :embarrassed:
Again Imma just state I get called stupid at work all day by women, look at to the younger generation, go on Facebook. You will see. I don't why people think it's easier to be a male and that we have this privalege it's not!
<Foul language removed
Admin>
Quote from: Brandon on November 19, 2017, 10:13:52 PM
Again Imma just state I get called stupid at work all day by women,look at to the younger generation, go on Facebook. You will see. I don't why people think it's easier to be a male and that we have this privalege it's not!
I wouldn't say its easier, but male privelage is real....though some males carry far more of it than others. And I think females have their own privelage.
The reason I say its real is because I have tried to reclaim as much male privelage as possible, stopped identifying as a Woman and started to identify as a Transwoman. I try to double dip into as many privelages as possible honestly....
When the odds are so against us we should fight with every resource we can is my opinion
Quote from: extraaction on November 19, 2017, 10:45:17 PM
I wouldn't say its easier, but male privelage is real....though some males carry far more of it than others. And I think females have their own privelage.
The reason I say its real is because I have tried to reclaim as much male privelage as possible, stopped identifying as a Woman and started to identify as a Transwoman. I try to double dip into as many privelages as possible honestly....
When the odds are so against us we should fight with every resource we can is my opinion
Hi Extraaction,
That's a really interesting idea. It does seem to be fair in a "cis privileged" world. Wondering if we can all agree on that privilege?
Take care all,
Paige :)
Quote from: Paige on November 20, 2017, 09:54:49 AM
Hi Extraaction,
That's a really interesting idea. It does seem to be fair in a "cis privileged" world. Wondering if we can all agree on that privilege?
Take care all,
Paige :)
Thanks Paige. I've learned the concept over time. Until the fight for our rights goes anywhere, for me it's just a fight for my survival and the survival of my family.
Cis privelage is a real thing for sure. I've had a lot of pressure put on me to raise my children gender neutral, which I refuse to do. I want them to have every chance to have Cis privelage
Quote from: Jenntrans on November 17, 2017, 04:32:36 PM
LOL just put the worker in his place???? LOL again if he thought you were just "dumb arm candy" for your boyfriend
Men are so easy because they love "airhead bimbos" and if they think you are it is so easy to cont rol them or show them up. >:-) You have to decide though.
Well if he was attracted to me I didn't see it that way, I'm not young, I'm a woman in my 50s but have often been told I look much younger maybe in my early 40s, I've probably got some grey hairs, but it's dyed blonde with highlights so he probably thought I was an ''airhead bimbo'' that only has shopping shoes and dresses on my mind which I find very insulting and belittling, being judged by the color of my hair by a small minded man, and he had to have the last word, when he said hubby will explain it all to me, I just replied ''yeah thanks a bunch'' he had to have the last word and replied with a smirk ''no problem, your welcome good girl'' calling a middle age woman a ''GOOD GIRL'' is patronizing and condescending and very disrespectful, gosh I was fuming. Sorry for going on, my rant is over, we can discuss male privilege in a thread and then go out and live in the real world as a woman, I think I need a stiff cocktail to calm my nerves😈
wow it's been so long since commenting here lol.
Well to add my two cents.
(1) I don't believe women are oppressed in no way,shape or form like I once have.
(2) I do believe there's degree of privilege for men but also females too.
(3) Females in THIS GENERATION and living in the United States or Canada are far from disadvantaged.
Female privilege is strong and real.
Quote from: meatwagon on October 09, 2017, 07:26:49 AM
most other things that are considered "privilege" on one side tend to be broad generalizations which have opposite reflections on the other side, a similar advantage for every disadvantage and vice versa. that's going to happen when you have groups that occupy two different roles in society and have two different sets of expectations placed on them--as well as naturally distinct behaviors and things one will be more likely to do than the other in the same situations. there are always exceptions and overlaps, though, and things one person sees as privilege will be seen as a disadvantage by someone else.
I wholeheartedly agree with everything meatwagon said. Of course there is such a thing as male privilege. On the other hand, you cannot honestly discuss male privilege without mentioning female privilege too, which is something that is quickly dismissed more often than not.
I grew up in a destructive household where my mother often assaulted my father. I know from several first-hand accounts that violence from women against men is not as rare as we think it is. There are many other examples which suggest that yes, women experience difficulties, but so do men.
I am not all that for the "which has it better" or "who is more privileged" discussion. I think to really be able to discuss this, people need to keep an open mind and be willing to consider the other side of the coin as well. The only way equality can be achieved is by paying attention to both sides.
Transitioning has helped me a lot in seeing both sides of the coin. Back when I thought I was female, I never hung out with men and talked about these issues the way I can now. Having honest conversations with them has made me realize that men´s rights are frequently viewed as having less importance than women´s rights.
Keep in mind I´m merely answering the OP´s question. I have no intention of derailing the conversation into a contest to see which gender is worse off.
I think you've got the concept of male privilege wrong. I hope I also did, because that would mean I've never experienced it before. I'm talking only about the reality of my country, which may be very different from yours.
When I talk about male privilege I'm not talking about being paid more for the same job, I'm talking about hiring a man instead of a woman just because I believe a woman wouldn't to the work as good as the man would, regardless of her skills and experience.
When I talk about male privilege I mean people saying "What was she doing in that place? She should be out at night. That wouldn't have happened if she hadn't dressed like a slut" when a little girl is found murdered and raped. I mean the accuseds of murdering her going away even without a trial for lack of proofs that he killed her. They know he had sex with her and that she was drugged, but nothing says he wanted to kill her, so it was probably an accident.
I'm talking about a destroying a girl's reputation if she is found alive. "She couldn't handle her hot <not allowed> and ran away with a men so she could <not allowed>."
I'm taking about men being able to abuse women knowinh that nothing would happen to them because their male peers would hide everything, and the woman will be discouraged by most people of accusing him. And if the girl finally decides to report abuse or rape, the police can just tell her that "those things happen" and ignore the report.
That's what male privilege means in my country, and I feel it every time a young girl is missing (which happens every 1-2 weeks) and found dead.
( Unacceptable language edited by moderator )
Quote from: Jenntrans on November 18, 2017, 10:52:56 AM
Life sometimes sux but claiming others have privilege is kind of a way to show envy and I envy no one. My life has been hard and I have adapted and when knocked down got right back up and approached it differently to a point that was sort of the right choice for me.
This kind of reasoning resonates best with me. I find it very down to earth (and quite refreshing!). I think it´s problematic to frame the conversation in terms of the "haves" and the "have-nots". Life rarely is black and white. In a debate about grievances there is no side who has "more of a claim to grievances".
It´s quite unhealthy to think of it that way, I feel. Rather than claiming to have more right to be upset, there should be honest dialogue between men and women about their grievances, and both men and women should be ready to face the privilege of their respective positions.
I´m not saying this applies to all and every country and culture. I do think it applies to western cultures.
Quote from: pretty pauline on November 17, 2017, 04:04:08 PM
But it does come natural to men that women are inferior, they think all we think about is hair makeup and nail polish, but they are wrong, we are more intelligence than that and we're not respect as intelligence women only seen as airhead bimbos.
With respect, you are making very broad generalizations about all men. Granted, those remarks they made towards you sound ->-bleeped-<-ty. But lumping every single man with a good heart and great intentions in the same category as some guys you know, hurts men as well.
There are awful women out there. As I said, I grew up with one. Abuse from women directed at men is not uncommon, but not as widely discussed. And yet, despite those horrible experiences, I am not here saying that all women are violent and horrible. Because I know most women really are great people.
Personally I´m interested in men´s rights and I cannot tell you how many men I met, who have feelings of inferiority and a guilt complex, because they feel like they should make up for the a-holes out there. But, contrary to popular belief, they are not responsible for ->-bleeped-<-ty behavior displayed by other men.
I cannot begin to sum up the ways in which men are often framed - as backwards creatures who have no real understanding of emotions, who think that women are "too complicated". Yes, men like that exist - and they haven´t reached any real emotional maturity. Neither have quite a number of women.
Maturity, empathy and being able to treat other people with respect - that´s not a gendered trait. That´s a trait that people hopefully learn while they grow up, and if not, you can only hope that they pick it up later in life. But don´t judge entire groups of people based on the behaviors of a few.
Seems like every time I hear or read a discussion on male privelage its almost always the ones who deny it exisys the most are the ones who either identify as male or transwomen accused of having residual male privelage.......perhaps denial is a symptom of said privelage......
That said, as a Transwomwn I admit to having residual male privelage.
I encourage others to OWN IT
And it seems like every time there's a discussion about privilege someone's there to claim "female privilege" doesn't exist or attempts to downplay it. I encourage them to own it.
Quote from: Viktor on November 21, 2017, 08:02:18 PM
And it seems like every time there's a discussion about privilege someone's there to claim "female privilege" doesn't exist or attempts to downplay it. I encourage them to own it.
I agree 100%
(Nice try tho)
I'm sorry if you can't see male privilege then you're not looking very hard or making false equivalence between the tangible economic privileges enjoyed by Western males for decidedly intangible social privileges reserved to females.
It's true women have one economic privilege I can think of, we consistently make much better coin in sex work. That fact alone ought to be indicative. Mind you I'm totally sex worker supportive and I'm glad there's a living there but also remember that the industry outside of talent is male dominated.
All I see here are strawman arguments against the existence of male privilege.
Then again, as it's being discussed here, it's not exactly a trans relevant topic anyway.
Perhaps I should write here a list of all the female privileges I can think of. As I can think of a lot, and that's off the 'top of my head'.
But if I read you right you are claiming social privileges are somehow less important than economic privileges? What, like the social privilege of not being potentially forcibly drafted and sent off to die in a war? Or the social privilege of having full reproductive rights and autonomy over your own reproduction, extending right up to the ability to abort yours and a man's child, and further up to make the father pay for his child or face lawful penalty while you would have the ability to hand the child over to government if you were disinclined to care for it, without penalty? How about the social privilege of more lenient sentencing practically across the board should you be accused of a crime? Or the social privilege of it generally been seen as abhorrent for someone to be violent to you, as opposed to a man, and if they were for you to find far more social support services and battered shelters than exist for men? (when was the last time you saw a battered men's shelter? there is only ONE in the UK for example and that's about to get shut down. As opposed to many, many women services and helplines.) I think these are pretty tangible social privileges, to name a few.
But if you want to talk about economic privileges - women are not paid less per hour than men in the average job. That is illegal. There appear to be lots of affirmative action plans, scholarships, bursaries, training courses and so on directed at or towards women and I see almost none for men, and yet - we're now told that women now outnumber men in the workforce in America on payrolls. Isn't that interesting. Women also now outnumber men in university enrollments in the UK and US. Looks like you may have to hand those affirmative action plans over to men shortly because they're going to be in the clear minority soon. Except working all the most unpleasant and dangerous jobs, I imagine. I also notice women will have priority for government housing in the UK if they have children, and have access to more government money in the form of child welfare; I believe the distribution of uninsured healthcare for pregnant women in the US and other places in the Western world varies by state but here in the UK you get looked after, get free midwifery services, advice, contraception, abortion, vaccination etc.
No, women are absolutely not impaired economically here by virtue of just being women. The reason most of them earn slightly less than men in total and on average isn't because someone is ripping them off due to "male privilege", it's because most women choose to work flexibly and will work less hours either by choice or because they're taking maternity leave. We already know women value their work/life balance more than men do and tend to take more time off for that reason. More time off = less earnings. In my country - the prime minister of which is a woman, I might add - the number of women in civil servant/public sector positions is higher than that of men at this point, and they are generally better paid jobs with higher than average wages and better workers' rights, holidays and privileges than the private sector typically offers.
It seems as they say - "privilege is invisible to those who have it"
If you're going to blame an actual "patriarchy" for economically impairing women, try the Middle East. Where on the whole women are more culturally economically impaired, or even banned outright from being able to work and be independent from men. That's your patriarchy. Not here in the West where women have potential access to the highest offices of the land, are the majority of the workforce and academic students, have laws protecting their minimum wages and ability to work, and where there are more anti-discrimination and equal opportunity laws in place than anywhere in the world.
Quote from: Lady Lisandra on November 21, 2017, 04:39:32 PM
I think you've got the concept of male privilege wrong. I hope I also did, because that would mean I've never experienced it before. I'm talking only about the reality of my country, which may be very different from yours.
When I talk about male privilege I'm not talking about being paid more for the same job, I'm talking about hiring a man instead of a woman just because I believe a woman wouldn't to the work as good as the man would, regardless of her skills and experience.
When I talk about male privilege I mean people saying "What was she doing in that place? She should be out at night. That wouldn't have happened if she hadn't dressed like a slut" when a little girl is found murdered and raped. I mean the accuseds of murdering her going away even without a trial for lack of proofs that he killed her. They know he had sex with her and that she was drugged, but nothing says he wanted to kill her, so it was probably an accident.
I'm talking about a destroying a girl's reputation if she is found alive. "She couldn't handle her hot <not allowed> and ran away with a men so she could <not allowed>."
I'm taking about men being able to abuse women knowinh that nothing would happen to them because their male peers would hide everything, and the woman will be discouraged by most people of accusing him. And if the girl finally decides to report abuse or rape, the police can just tell her that "those things happen" and ignore the report.
That's what male privilege means in my country, and I feel it every time a young girl is missing (which happens every 1-2 weeks) and found dead.
Really because here in my country women are always trying to fight men, I have had it happen. A girl was trying to fight me but we all know if I hit her one good time I would be in the wrong, she was all in my face and everything. I don where you from but women are always provoking men here thinking we just don't hit back.
Quote from: extraaction on November 21, 2017, 07:50:40 PM
Seems like every time I hear or read a discussion on male privelage its almost always the ones who deny it exisys the most are the ones who either identify as male or transwomen accused of having residual male privelage.......perhaps denial is a symptom of said privelage......
That said, as a Transwomwn I admit to having residual male privelage.
I encourage others to OWN IT
Since I am denying male privilege come be a black man for a day then.
Quote from: Brandon on November 22, 2017, 02:57:33 AM
Since I am denying male privilege come be a black man for a day then.
first off, it doesn't work like that. if I tried, I'd never hear the end of how racist wearing blackface is (which it IS totally racist and unacceptable)
Secondly, why would I ever want to do that even if I could? I'm collecting as many privelages as possible to make up for my own disadvantaged status. I'm not looking to collect more discrimination
I'm light skinned enough to be granted white privelage even though I am a nonwhite multiracial. If the whole game is unfair, I'm going to cheat too
Quote from: extraaction on November 22, 2017, 03:02:29 AM
first off, it doesn't work like that. if I tried, I'd never hear the end of how racist wearing blackface is (which it IS totally racist and unacceptable)
Secondly, why would I ever want to do that even if I could? I'm collecting as many privelages as possible to make up for my own disadvantaged status. I'm not looking to collect more discrimination
I'm light skinned enough to be granted white privelage even though I am a nonwhite multiracial. If the whole game is unfair, I'm going to cheat too
It does work like that, first all both genders have advantages and disadvantages, I never even understood the meaning of male privilege until now, I don't see how it exist though in my opinion and I have already explained a lot of my reasoning for that in earlier post on this thread but perhaps you didn't read that so maybe just maybe it's you denying female privelege. The reason I said come be a black man for a day is because it's already hard to be a man in general but being a man of color that's a whole nother ball game we playing. Or better yet come love in my generation, you will see how times have changed.
Quote from: Brandon on November 22, 2017, 03:15:25 AM
It does work like that, first all both genders have advantages and disadvantages, I never even understood the meaning of male privilege until now, I don't see how it exist though in my opinion and I have already explained a lot of my reasoning for that in earlier post on this thread but perhaps you didn't read that so maybe just maybe it's you denying female privelege. The reason I said come be a black man for a day is because it's already hard to be a man in general but being a man of color that's a whole nother ball game we playing. Or better yet come love in my generation, you will see how times have changed.
times have changed? LOL how old do you think I am?
and you don't have to tell me how hard it is to be a man. I filled that roll for long enough....in comparison, being a transwoman is a breeze. And I totally AFFIRM female privelage....haven't ever denied it.
and believe me, I know being black is a whole different league...just last week some young black man was shot not once, but twice by racist texas cops becase the alarm on his truck was going off. he was trying to shut the alarm off and stop the faulty alarm from making a scene. he was unarmed in HIS OWN TRUCK. The officers shot him, wrestled him to the ground, and attempted to perform a cavity search without a warrent (I.E. RAPE). When he resisted having fingers shoved up his butt they shot him again IN THE BACK.
so yeah, I don't want to be black for a day. I have an idea of how much different it is, and honestly I don't want to get shot or arrested for doing nothing
Viktor I can't speak for the UK which is more socially forward than the US for better or worse (yes I'm not stupid, there are always trade offs).
I grew up in the tail end of the Vietnam war era, was actually at risk of being drafted. The US will almost certainly never entertain a draft again. Yes the draft exists, likelihood it's reactivated is basically nil. Here, however the military is a great equalizer and this is trans relevant, just as women and then gay people have been accepted into our armed forces, trans people are just getting there.
I happen to work in engineering & science and when I started there were exactly zero females in the technical ranks and damned few in management. Virtually all the women employed in all the places I've worked were production workers. Yes, that's changed, around the '80s I began to encounter female scientists, still no engineers. By the '90s a very small number of female engineers and as I always have observed with minorities, they worked harder for less pay.
What did happen was they were generally promoted faster into management. It turns out women on average are more interested in getting the job done, fostering cooperation and less in dick swinging. However they were and remain far more likely to be subjected to sexual harassment and yes I've worked alongside serial harassers, all men who were protected by their employers after multiple problems with females working under them. I was fired myself after coming to the support of an acquaintance who'd been harassed by a young and cocky engineer who was protected by his management.
Yes, women outnumber men in both the workplace and university now and the latter is surely a sign of increasing equality, however in the former case those women face a glass ceiling, they aren't in most places in the running for senior positions.
However within university, I work in the *only* major technical university in the US that does recruit equally among men and women. STEM remains an area where women are far behind and even here the area of computer science remains strongly male majority.
Lastly I kept my post short and made essentially one point which you failed to address and while there are more strawman arguments throughout your posts than I have time to take up, I'll take on one. Comparing (some of) the middle east where women are severely disadvantaged under the law does nothing to establish that things are fair in the west. Notably Israel is also middle Eastern and well known for progressive gender equality.
There have been a lot of reactions in this topic (by transmen), who never denied that male privilege exists. There might be people who have doubts that it exists. However there are also quite a few reactions by men who are saying, yes it does exist, but we can only have an honest conversation about it if people are willing to look at the other side of the coin.
Second, most of the men answering here are transmen - they very well know and have experienced life as a female - including myself (27 years female). So any discrimination that ciswomen and transwomen experienced, they have experienced it too, and I have experienced it too. However when you transition, you also see the other side of the story.
Thinking about female privilege does
not amount to a denial of male privilege. Thinking that male/female privilege does not exist, in my opinion, is absurd. You will always have certain things that advantage you and disadvantage you. You can´t talk about male/female privilege without taking other factors into account too, like skin color, class, etc.
Brandon - to make the conversation easier, maybe you could list the points that you disagreed with in the video you were watching. That way people could see whether they agreed with those points or not - it would be a whole lot easier than having a discussion about very broad subject matter.
On a side note, I´d like to state that the chance of a male getting assaulted is not necessarily lower than the chances of a woman getting assaulted - transitioning has both made is safer for me to walk the streets and less safe - it´s just a different kind of threat you´re facing. The threat is mostly from men who wouldn´t mind a fight.
There are plenty of men who have to keep their wits about them when walking the streets alone or at night, depending on the neighborhood. As I stated, men can be victims of sexual abuse - often by other men - but are often also victims of violence within a relationship or at the hands of their mother as a child.
If you want to have an honest conversation about gender, you simply cannot state that this almost never happens or is a myth, or that women face far more violence than men. It all depends on the different kinds of environment and situations that men and women face. I have seen several in-depth studies of discrimination/violence for both genders.
Quote from: SadieBlake on November 22, 2017, 04:33:11 AM
Yes, women outnumber men in both the workplace and university now and the latter is surely a sign of increasing equality, however in the former case those women face a glass ceiling, they aren't in most places in the running for senior positions.
Personally, I am not sure how increasing inequality between men and women equates equality. If anything, I wonder why men are increasingly dropping out of university or enrolling in lesser numbers. I think that should be cause for concern.
Your argument about there not being enough women in engineering and science is valid, although I have seen an interview with a young female engineer (I´d have to look it up), where she said that most of her female friends simply weren´t interested in engineering, and would rather do something else, like the social studies.
I studied anthropology and out of a class of about 200, there maybe were about 10 men. Is that a good or a bad thing? Does it indicate than men are simply more interested in the "hard" sciences? If so, that isn´t necessarily bad. If they are staying away for other reasons, the issue should be looked into.
The same applies to classes and careers with mostly men in it. Are there mostly men in it, because they are more interested in the subject matter? Or are there mostly men in it, because women are staying out for other reasons? Same thing as above, the issue should be looked into.
With regard to the pay gap: there have been studies carried out to investigate the pay imbalance and it has frequently turned out that men worked longer shifts /more hours on average or were in positions where they would have a greater risk of injury. So I think you can see why some of us are doubtful as to whether this is true.
I wonder if quotas really do anything to help women. If anything, women should be encouraged to be interested in science from a young age, and if they are simply interested in other fields, that´s fine too. But in my opinion, the workforce would profit more from hiring those with the highest skills and passion, as opposed to quotas.
Edit: I´ve scrolled back a bit, read all comments, and I think we actually already do agree with each other on quite a few things. Also think it´s quite an informative topic ;D
NF, it's not about quotas and trust me, nobody gets into or thru my school without qualifications and an intense desire to work their butts off for 4 very hard years.
Here's how a cousin who's a full professor at Brown u put it when my daughter had that as her first choice. Even after they've culled the qualified and shaped the incoming class for people they want (varied cultural bg, a bunch of intangibles etc etc) they admit let's say 500 incoming freshmen. They really can't tell the difference between that 500 and the next 500, their applicant pool is that strong. And my daughter being white female was in their largest applicant demographic so her chances weren't very good.
Yes it's concerning that there are marginally fewer men in university, I won't be worried until the disparity matches what it was the other way a generation or two ago.
And yes I lived with male privilege for many years, odd isn't it that I still envied women :-).
Quote from: extraaction on November 22, 2017, 03:27:52 AM
times have changed? LOL how old do you think I am?
and you don't have to tell me how hard it is to be a man. I filled that roll for long enough....in comparison, being a transwoman is a breeze. And I totally AFFIRM female privelage....haven't ever denied it.
and believe me, I know being black is a whole different league...just last week some young black man was shot not once, but twice by racist texas cops becase the alarm on his truck was going off. he was trying to shut the alarm off and stop the faulty alarm from making a scene. he was unarmed in HIS OWN TRUCK. The officers shot him, wrestled him to the ground, and attempted to perform a cavity search without a warrent (I.E. RAPE). When he resisted having fingers shoved up his butt they shot him again IN THE BACK.
so yeah, I don't want to be black for a day. I have an idea of how much different it is, and honestly I don't want to get shot or arrested for doing nothing
So how am I privileged if I have to worry about stuff like that? Thats not a privilege at all.
you possess male privelage but you lack white privelage. one doesn't negate the other, it's a case of 1+0 equals 1, not 0
just because you don't feel privelaged, doesn't mean the privelage isn't there
Quote from: extraaction on November 22, 2017, 07:37:18 AM
you possess male privelage but you lack white privelage. one doesn't negate the other, it's a case of 1+0 equals 1, not 0
just because you don't feel privelaged, doesn't mean the privelage isn't there
I mean if you say so but I don't see how you can sit up here and tell me what I have and what I don't when you are not me. If I have male privilege then you have female privilege and female privilege exist.
A big problem for me is the word privilege is fairly inaccurate to begin with. It implies a status or right that has been granted, often legally(ie: the Middle Eastern examples in which male rights are very codified). A lot of what people are talking about here are more basic advantages, or even more often simply biases. In the modern west, there is certainly residual bias for (and against) men, but is that really a privilege? This may seem to be playing technicalities with common terminology, but that terminology does matter since it effects how the issue should be addressed.
Quote from: Brandon on November 22, 2017, 07:51:10 AM
If I have male privilege then you have female privilege and female privilege exist.
how many times do I have to agree to this statement? It doesn't hurt my feelings and it's TRUE. This is like the third or fourth or fifth time I've agreed with the same statement or come right out and said it myself. But seriously forget it. This is my last post in this thread. Why debate when people can't even realize when they are being agreed with?
Speaking of male privilege, I'm due to get my driver's license re-issued but with my male ID this time.
And for the privilege of having that little "M" instead of an "F" on the card, my insurance is going to cost more. For no actually good reason, ofc. I've never crashed a car or even scraped one, I haven't magically become more reckless or less proficient, or a different person. But that M is more expensive than that F. Ah, sweet, sweet male economic privilege.
Must be balanced out by all that extra money I earn in jobs because male, right? Oh, wait.
Quote from: Viktor on November 22, 2017, 11:21:41 AM
Speaking of male privilege, I'm due to get my driver's license re-issued but with my male ID this time.
And for the privilege of having that little "M" instead of an "F" on the card, my insurance is going to cost more. For no actually good reason, ofc. I've never crashed a car or even scraped one, I haven't magically become more reckless or less proficient, or a different person. But that M is more expensive than that F. Ah, sweet, sweet male economic privilege.
Must be balanced out by all that extra money I earn in jobs because male, right? Oh, wait.
Mine came yesterday with the new marker on it, and I'll be saving 15% on my car insurance by switching to female. :laugh:
You can have as much privilege as you can carry, regardless of gender. Women willing to be forceful and assertive get away with not cleaning the dishes :)
As old saying goes, in 2012 United States weren't ready yet for ether black president or a woman president, yet neither Barack nor Hillary were viewed as such.
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Quote from: elkie-t on November 22, 2017, 11:47:16 AM
You can have as much privilege as you can carry, regardless of gender. Women willing to be forceful and assertive get away with not cleaning the dishes :)
As old saying goes, in 2012 United States weren't ready yet for ether black president or a woman president, yet neither Barack nor Hillary were viewed as such.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
we definately weren't ready for an orange president either.... ;D
Privilege being compared to driver's licences and dishwashing is utterly ridiculous. There is a difference between an advantage and systemic, entrenched privilege. Men have always since the dawn of time had power over women. For entirely too long they have wielded that power to the detriment of women. I don't think that can be argued. Are things that bad anymore, no not at all. But you cannot deny that vestiges remain. This is the same for any group that has had historical power over another. And in these times we live in now I find it interesting that the groups whose power has been challenged and chipped away at deny and downplay the affects of it. But surprised i am not.
I also find it sad to see folks go from one demographic to another and gain privilege but dismiss how it affects the group they once belonged to! Willingly belonged to or not. Identified with or not. It's like the misfit kid at school who is constantly bullied, becoming a popular kid and do the bullying himself.
Quote from: CMD042414 on November 22, 2017, 04:14:21 PM
Privilege being compared to driver's licences and dishwashing is utterly ridiculous. There is a difference between an advantage and systemic, entrenched privilege. Men have always since the dawn of time had power over women. For entirely too long they have wielded that power to the detriment of women.
I agree with that statement 100%, in today's 21st century we may think that men and women are equal, but we are not, it's still very much a ''man's world''
And the greatest irony, I never knew that male privilege existed when I lived as a guy, maybe I just took it for granted as most guys do, I only discovered male privilege when I transition and became a woman, coming up with ideas I got listened to when I was a guy, but the same ideas coming from me now as a woman I get ignored, get called honey and basically get treat as an airhead bimbo.
I remember first experiencing this from men after I had just completed my transition and discussing it with female friends, and they just laughed it off ''ah men will be men, get use to it, welcome to womanhood'' I was shocked, but women just accepted it, I found it hard to accept because I lived as a guy in another life, but not all men are like that, after all, I'm now a woman married to a man. And another thing, I don't get away with not cleaning the dishes and hubby doesn't know how to cook, I do the cooking and the dishes because hubby says it's a wife duty, but then he does the guy stuff, mows the lawn and fixes things and does stuff that I don't particularly like doing, so it is handy having a man around the place to do things that a woman doesn't like doing, I say that with my tongue firmly in my cheek LOL
Quote from: CMD042414 on November 22, 2017, 04:14:21 PM
I also find it sad to see folks go from one demographic to another and gain privilege but dismiss how it affects the group they once belonged to! Willingly belonged to or not. Identified with or not. It's like the misfit kid at school who is constantly bullied, becoming a popular kid and do the bullying himself.
Here's the problems with that: My existence as a male was directly detrimental to me. And I'm not just talking about the trans issue, but everything. I was held to standards and shunned for not meeting those standards... for being a nerd(before it became cool), for not having sex (want to make a life a living hell of ridicule and insecurity? be a male virgin), for not liking football, you name it... basically, just for not being "one of the guys". Combined with natural tendency to major anxiety and compounded further by the gender issues, I was a shut in for over a decade. I never once saw any male privilege for myself, I just didn't. Now, granted I am a bit of an outlier in many ways, particularly being both trans and in that I spent most of my life as a shut in(and of course you sort of have to be out in the world to experience any sort of advantage in said world). But regardless, I prove it is not ubiquitous to being male (or those presenting male0, and that in turn any privilege is not incumbent upon being male (or presenting as male), but on a host of far, far more complicated factors playing off one another. To reduce the issue to a distinctly male privilege, and to imply that privilege is an overriding factor in society is a disservice (and creates a focus on the wrong problem, doing harm in the long run to solving bigger issues)--and I am not the same as the bullied becoming the bully in the slightest for believing that.
And let's go back to the trans issue on the demographic switch point... So if the effects of being (seemingly) part of a group are dramatically negative to an individual, on balance obliterating any (for the sake of argument, assumed) advantage conveyed to that group (suicide stats alone...), that's... a pretty crappy privilege. So why is it any surprise that some trans women claim they didn't see evidence of male privilege presenting as male? And how does that translate into the Stockholm syndrome-like metaphor you described? If some of us didn't feel particularly privileged, then why not simply take us at our word instead of implying we are in denial? Because, frankly, only I have lived my life. How can anyone else say what privilege I have or have not experienced?
And I should say, I don't mean to sound overly argumentative or anything with this post, I'm not sure how to phrase it in a more neutral manner while referencing personal experience. I feel like it's a bit harsher tone than I intended. :-X
Quote from: Roll on November 22, 2017, 05:11:40 PM
Here's the problems with that: My existence as a male was directly detrimental to me. And I'm not just talking about the trans issue, but everything. I was held to standards and shunned for not meeting those standards... for being a nerd(before it became cool), for not having sex (want to make a life a living hell of ridicule and insecurity? be a male virgin), for not liking football, you name it... basically, just for not being "one of the guys". Combined with natural tendency to major anxiety and compounded further by the gender issues, I was a shut in for over a decade. I never once saw any male privilege for myself, I just didn't. Now, granted I am a bit of an outlier in many ways, particularly being both trans and in that I spent most of my life as a shut in(and of course you sort of have to be out in the world to experience any sort of advantage in said world). But regardless, I prove it is not ubiquitous to being male (or those presenting male0, and that in turn any privilege is not incumbent upon being male (or presenting as male), but on a host of far, far more complicated factors playing off one another. To reduce the issue to a distinctly male privilege, and to imply that privilege is an overriding factor in society is a disservice (and creates a focus on the wrong problem, doing harm in the long run to solving bigger issues)--and I am not the same as the bullied becoming the bully in the slightest for believing that.
And let's go back to the trans issue on the demographic switch point... So if the effects of being (seemingly) part of a group are dramatically negative to an individual, on balance obliterating any (for the sake of argument, assumed) advantage conveyed to that group (suicide stats alone...), that's... a pretty crappy privilege. So why is it any surprise that some trans women claim they didn't see evidence of male privilege presenting as male? And how does that translate into the Stockholm syndrome-like metaphor you described? If some of us didn't feel particularly privileged, then why not simply take us at our word instead of implying we are in denial? Because, frankly, only I have lived my life. How can anyone else say what privilege I have or have not experienced?
And I should say, I don't mean to sound overly argumentative or anything with this post, I'm not sure how to phrase it in a more neutral manner while referencing personal experience. I feel like it's a bit harsher tone than I intended. :-X
To be part of a privileged group does not mean that each and every individual in that group has benefited from it directly. Those things are not mutually exclusive. So yes male privilege exists. Yes you were technically part of that privileged group. No that does not automatically mean as an individual benefited from that privilege. There are an endless amount of variables. But it does not diminish or negate the existence of privilege.
Quote from: Brandon on November 22, 2017, 02:55:45 AM
Really because here in my country women are always trying to fight men, I have had it happen. A girl was trying to fight me but we all know if I hit her one good time I would be in the wrong, she was all in my face and everything. I don where you from but women are always provoking men here thinking we just don't hit back.
You talk about hitting. I talk about murder and rape.
Quote from: Lady Lisandra on November 22, 2017, 08:59:15 PM
You talk about hitting. I talk about murder and rape.
Men get murdered and raped as well. It's just not talked about.
"To be part of a privileged group" - this really needs to be cleared up. Either we are saying that both males and females are privileged in different ways but BOTH have a degree of privilege over the other, or we are dealing with the "men just have power over women and women have no power over men and never had" spiel.
It is a fact that women have power over men too. It is usually SOFT POWER, rather than "hard power" and a little more covert but it is power. If you don't know the difference between soft and hard power go look it up. It is real. Men might be bigger on the whole than women but women can and do use men to do their fighting for them, for example, and that is also power a person may wield.
If woman A and her boyfriend are in a bar and man B walks up, hits on her while her boyfriend's at the bar and gets rejected, and then follows this up by pushing her to the ground, that's hard power - the woman isn't likely to pose much of a physical threat to him. However, if woman A then goes to her boyfriend, tells all and suggests he knock man B's teeth out, and he does, that is soft power. She isn't as strong as man B but it doesn't matter. She used her position and her influence to get the job done. In fact, I would argue a person who can get others to do their dirty work for them without lifting a finger have a lot MORE power than those who have to do their own. They are less likely to be injured or blamed for starters. Woman A might even have her boyfriend's pals pitch in too. Soft power can offer a lot of interesting options.
I know damn well women exert soft power, and women are perfectly aware of it - whether it's getting men to defend them, help them get something off the top shelf they can't reach, to utilizing the male tendency to want to protect and take care of a female who is close to them. Men are absolute suckers for it, and women know it. And they have to be, because biologically women always needed men's help in the natural world when we were building tribes and civilizations. Women needed men's utility. There is absolutely no getting away from this - the human female is unfortunately vulnerable while carrying children and survives much better when women help women and men help women too. We evolved that way.
Women are very good at getting men to do what they want. I'm sure they evolved that way too, because pregnancy always foisted some degree of dependency on a human female - she needed to be influential to survive. That soft power is less visible than a "big strong man" but it is there and anyone downplaying it likely either has an agenda or is in some sort of denial, choosing deliberately to focus on the most visually prominent rather than the most potent.
And as for this idea "male privilege" "exists for all men - but actually no, only for some" is ridiculous. Either male privilege is by definition a privilege one has by virtue of being male or it isn't. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
Yes, sexual dimorphism sucks if you think being made to make use of soft power rather than hard power sucks (actually small men are typically made to make strategic use of it over hard power, they can't always compete with a 6'4" opponent - but not being women they don't have all the various strategies and lures available only to females at their disposal), but it is absolutely not the case that men have all the power or influence in the world at all. If you think that then you are purposefully denying the power of women, and the general willingness of men as a gender to defend them, provide for them, please them, and avoid treating them with the severity they treat other men. Women not only have the advantage that men tend to like women more than other men, whom they are more likely to see as potential rivals, but that women tend to side with women too. Just about the whole of society including men cares more about the safety, wellbeing and provisioning of women. Human society itself is woman-centric at the core, not man-centric - the basis of the family is the mother and child and men are the "helpers" of it. I don't know how many times I have to lay out the obvious, that which is there for everyone to see if they get their heads out of current dogma, and stick them out of the front door and have a look at the real world.
Quote from: Viktor on November 22, 2017, 09:46:12 PM
"To be part of a privileged group" - this really needs to be cleared up. Either we are saying that both males and females are privileged in different ways but BOTH have a degree of privilege over the other, or we are dealing with the "men just have power over women and women have no power over men and never had" spiel.
It is a fact that women have power over men too. It is usually SOFT POWER, rather than "hard power" and a little more covert but it is power. If you don't know the difference between soft and hard power go look it up. It is real. Men might be bigger on the whole than women but women can and do use men to do their fighting for them, for example, and that is also power a person may wield.
If woman A and her boyfriend are in a bar and man B walks up, hits on her while her boyfriend's at the bar and gets rejected, and then follows this up by pushing her to the ground, that's hard power - the woman isn't likely to pose much of a physical threat to him. However, if woman A then goes to her boyfriend, tells all and suggests he knock man B's teeth out, and he does, that is soft power. She isn't as strong as man B but it doesn't matter. She used her position and her influence to get the job done. In fact, I would argue a person who can get others to do their dirty work for them without lifting a finger have a lot MORE power than those who have to do their own. They are less likely to be injured or blamed for starters. Woman A might even have her boyfriend's pals pitch in too. Soft power can offer a lot of interesting options.
I know damn well women exert soft power, and women are perfectly aware of it - whether it's getting men to defend them, help them get something off the top shelf they can't reach, to utilizing the male tendency to want to protect and take care of a female who is close to them. Men are absolute suckers for it, and women know it. And they have to be, because biologically women always needed men's help in the natural world when we were building tribes and civilizations. Women needed men's utility. There is absolutely no getting away from this - the human female is unfortunately vulnerable while carrying children and survives much better when women help women and men help women too. We evolved that way.
Women are very good at getting men to do what they want. I'm sure they evolved that way too, because pregnancy always foisted some degree of dependency on a human female - she needed to be influential to survive. That soft power is less visible than a "big strong man" but it is there and anyone downplaying it likely either has an agenda or is in some sort of denial, choosing deliberately to focus on the obvious.
And as for this idea "male privilege" "exists for all men - but actually no, only for some" is ridiculous. Either male privilege is by definition a privilege one has by virtue of being male or it isn't. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
Yes, sexual dimorphism sucks is you think male or female privilege sucks, but it is absolutely not the case that men have all the power or influence in the world at all. If you think that then you are purposefully denying the power of women, and the general willingness of men as a gender to defend them, provide for them, please them, and avoid treating them with the severity they treat other men. Women not only have the advantage that men tend to like women more than other men, whom they are more likely to see as potential rivals, but that women tend to side with women too. Just about the whole of society including men cares more about the safety, wellbeing and provisioning of women. Human society itself is woman-centric at the core, not man-centric - the basis of the family is the mother and child and men are the "helpers" of it. I don't know how many times I have to lay out the obvious, that which is there for everyone to see if they get their heads out of current dogma, and stick them out of the front door and have a look at the real world.
I agree with everything you just said.
Maybe it is time for a deep breath and a pause.
People will always seek privilege over others, either by creed, colour, gender, wealth or strength. It matters not.
What is important is that decent human beings and includes all of you, take time and effort to look after their fellow humans, to treat others as you would wish to be treated and to lend a hand and succour to those who are struggling.
That is what real privilege is.
Quote from: Viktor on November 22, 2017, 09:46:12 PMIt is a fact that women have power over men too. It is usually SOFT POWER, rather than "hard power" and a little more covert but it is power. If you don't know the difference between soft and hard power go look it up. It is real.
Viktor, I like what you wrote. I've avoided reading this thread until today because I thought it would be more of what I recently see around the web. It's refreshing to see something objective.
Just to add something from another culture, women where I live are often viewed in the West as being very subservient to their husbands. However, the truth is more complicated. As a child staying at my friend's house in the summer I was a silent observer as his mother gave advice to her daughter in law to be. Here's a partial summary of what she said.
My son is very much like his father. Like dry sand, the harder you try to grip him the faster he will flow away from between your fingers. Held gently in the cup of your hand he will stay.
Let him decide things without argument. If you disagree, come back the next day and say, "Darling, I need your advice. I was thinking of what you said, and realized [something]. With that in mind, wouldn't it be best to [do this]? Can you help me think this through?" You will get what you want and he will get to know he made the decision.
Let him roll freely on your palm like a marble. As long as he feels free, he will be content.Women here tend to control all the family finances. The men get an allowance, and the wives take care of all the rest. In that sense they can be said to be the custodians of the entire family fortune.
As for work, the husband's salary used to be quite sufficient to support the household comfortably. Now taxes have gone up and land prices increased to the point that loans can span two generations, so many women—who would have otherwise stayed at home—do find employment, even if it is just part time. In this sense they've lost some of the freedom and "privilege" they had—but I do feel that is another story.
And Dena, I completely agree. What you say is also an absolutely essential perquisite for my friend's mother's advice to hold true.
Quote from: pretty pauline on November 23, 2017, 09:00:10 AM
We are privileged in this thread that we have lived in both genders, it would be ideal if some female to male, having lived as female would learn from experience and maybe transition to caring men and not some male chauvinist misogynistic men who have no respect for women.
Are you aware that what you are saying, is equally hurtful to (trans)men as a saying that includes a reference to female genitals? I find it rather disdainful, that you would say you hope "some" transmen don´t turn into chauvinistic, disrespectful misogynists. All transmen I have met are quite friendly guys who put themselves second. Mainly because of their previous experience.
Isn´t it also indicative of cynicism and negative stereotyping, when it is just assumed that all men have chance of becoming chauvinistic misogynists, just because they´re men? That makes no sense. As I said before, respect for fellow human beings isn´t gendered. It depends on the level of maturity you have. And I say this about women as well.
Other than that, I really see no point in endless argument. There have been quite a few great posts here and I enjoyed reading them. But to continue battling each other over this feels like an exercise in frustration, to be honest. Maybe I´m wrong.
Quote from: Cindy on November 22, 2017, 11:55:23 PM
Maybe it is time for a deep breath and a pause.
People will always seek privilege over others, either by creed, colour, gender, wealth or strength. It matters not.
What is important is that decent human beings and includes all of you, take time and effort to look after their fellow humans, to treat others as you would wish to be treated and to lend a hand and succour to those who are struggling.
That is what real privilege is.
Cindy makes an excellent point. Do I have a need to fell privileged? I would rather be known as a good person that respected and loved all in life as having some sort of privilege.
So maybe it is time to think about the whole term of "privilege".
Quote from: Jenntrans on November 23, 2017, 02:27:54 PM
Cindy makes an excellent point. Do I have a need to fell privileged? I would rather be known as a good person that respected and loved all in life as having some sort of privilege.
So maybe it is time to think about the whole term of "privilege".
Absolutely agree 100%, Cindy always has a positive outlook, a person I would never mind being with on a desert Island, always been a great inspiration.
:police:
Enough of the gutter language.
Cindy