Hello, I'm considering FFS and would like to know what you think I'd need to achieve the look of my Avatar. Keep in mind the before picture was taken at 1.5 months on HRT, and I'm only at 3 months now. Also, maybe an idea of costs. I've got weigh cist/benefits since I won't be able to do it all. If you think something cannot be done, let me know. Better for me to cry about it now then have unrealistic expectations.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tt6qf6wyidzk06w/1x1208.gif?dl=0l
Bari Jo
You have a great face already and don't need surgery!
Quote from: flytrap on October 15, 2017, 07:50:46 PM
You have a great face already and don't need surgery!
Hah, that is too kind. I see I need work on the brow ridge and nose at minimum. Maybe I should wait to see what hrt can do, just want to plan for the future. BTW, I am doing hairline restoration. I know that needs to be done regardless.
Bari Jo
Bari Jo
I'll agree with the Trapper of Flies. IMHO brow if anything.
Thank you I've been feeling really low recently and only see the ugly man staring back. I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel. I think I'll give myself a deadline of a year, and if I still feel the need, I'll go in for the brow surgery.
Bari Jo
I recommend getting a consultation from virtualffs.co.uk. While it's not free like FaceApp is, you'll get a much more realistic picture of what you would look like and what procedures you may want to have done.
FaceApp is a fun, free toy to play with but should play no part in something as serious and expensive as facial surgery.
Thanks Echo, when I get closer to that year mark, I'll do exactly this. I know faceapp isn't super accurate. It's giving me some confidence which is great, for me though. I'm the close to zero confidence girl at the moment. Still thanks for your suggestion, that will paint a more accurate picture of what is available to me.
The first thing I would do is get rid of that beard. Do what you have to. Electrolysis takes a lot of time.
Next, get on an anti-androgen like Finasteride to stop any further hair loss on the top and front of your head.
Then after a year of doing that, take another evaluation of your face. You have potential and hormone therapy will bring that out.
Thanks Dani, I'm on my way for that already. I'm 20 hours in on electrolysis already, and am taking finasteride too. Next month I get my hairline restored even. I'm trying to make the right steps for Bari Jo to come out:)
Bari Jo
Hi Bari Jo,
The biggest feminization improvement that I can see needed is putting a smile on your pretty face and then letting electrolysis and hrt do their magic work. Good luck, Anne
I agree with the others, facial hair, HRT, makeup (brows etc). Give it time, and I don't think you'll need anything.
Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk
I agree with the facial hair removal, it makes a way bigger difference than you might think.
Just eyeballing that one angle, maybe some orbit reduction, brow ridge reduction and a lip lift? It's hard to tell from that one photo but I agree that you don't really need a whole lot of work and might be able to get by without any after HRT has its way with you.
Quote from: Anne Blake on October 17, 2017, 03:53:30 PM
Hi Bari Jo,
The biggest feminization improvement that I can see needed is putting a smile on your pretty face and then letting electrolysis and hrt do their magic work. Good luck, Anne
Honestly that's the hardest thing for me right now. I am starting to feel better though. I wouldn't say I'm depressed, more defeated by the man in the mirror. When I see a change here and there from my transition, that defeat inches toward victory. I have so many pictures where my smile is forced, can't wait for it to be genuine again.
I hope I'm not unique in these feelings. They are scary to admit.
Bari Jo
Hello Bari Jo,
Please accept my apologies for speaking on things that I am ignorant of. I meant no harm and I have experienced the sort of situation that I put you in. Once again, I apologize.
Tia Anne
Bari Jo, you are so far from being alone there. It's a constant battle for me as well, as for so many others like us. Mental imprints suck and this process is far slower than I would like.
But at least for me it is getting a bit better, finally. Hopefully you'll have a similar experience.
Quote from: Anne Blake on October 17, 2017, 10:00:31 PM
Hello Bari Jo,
Please accept my apologies for speaking on things that I am ignorant of. I meant no harm and I have experienced the sort of situation that I put you in. Once again, I apologize.
Tia Anne
Oh, you are too sweet Tia Anne. I didn't feel any I'll will in your comment. You are correct, I need to smile more and I will hopefully in the future.
Thanks Colleen yes, it's a struggle. Glad to hear, or really sorry to hear it's common:)
Bari Jo
I feel like we are going around in circles with our self image issues, each telling the others how we look great then turning around and failing to see the same in ourselves. Maybe some day we will figure it out, but for now I will join the chorus and say that there is absolutely nothing that stands out as needing to be done!
(I'm such a hypocrite on this because I have zero doubt I will be posting this identical topic in a few months. ;D)
Quote from: Roll on October 17, 2017, 11:26:46 PM
I feel like we are going around in circles with our self image issues, each telling the others how we look great then turning around and failing to see the same in ourselves. Maybe some day we will figure it out, but for now I will join the chorus and say that there is absolutely nothing that stands out as needing to be done!
(I'm such a hypocrite on this because I have zero doubt I will be posting this identical topic in a few months. ;D)
You might very well be correct. I keep thinking everybody here is more passable than me, especially on that faceapp thread. I kind of dread looking at it now. Gotta get out of this funk damnit! Can I fast forward please?
Bari Jo
Facial hair removal, first and foremost. This will take a good couple of years. Plan on $10k to $20k just for this. Most will be electrolysis, as laser won't take out the white beard hairs and may convert a fair number of the dark ones to light ones as well.
As far as FFS goes, I tend to recommend doing it all. Just get rid of all the dysphoric tells. For you, priority should be on forehead, orbits, and nose. Then, an upper lip lift and trachea shave. But given all that, you might as well do chin and jaw remodeling as well. Prices range from $20k to $60k, depending on the surgeon and country. Add another $5k to $10k if a face lift is in order. Wait on hair transplants until after FFS, both to take advantage of any HRT gains and so that you can use the transplants to camouflage any scars.
All of this is no good without retraining your voice. That too can take 6 to 12 months, but you've got time because of electrolysis. Practice, experiment, and practice!
Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 18, 2017, 10:03:28 AM
Facial hair removal, first and foremost. This will take a good couple of years. Plan on $10k to $20k just for this. Most will be electrolysis, as laser won't take out the white beard hairs and may convert a fair number of the dark ones to light ones as well.
As far as FFS goes, I tend to recommend doing it all. Just get rid of all the dysphoric tells. For you, priority should be on forehead, orbits, and nose. Then, an upper lip lift and trachea shave. But given all that, you might as well do chin and jaw remodeling as well. Prices range from $20k to $60k, depending on the surgeon and country. Add another $5k to $10k if a face lift is in order. Wait on hair transplants until after FFS, both to take advantage of any HRT gains and so that you can use the transplants to camouflage any scars.
All of this is no good without retraining your voice. That too can take 6 to 12 months, but you've got time because of electrolysis. Practice, experiment, and practice!
Thanks Sophia. I won't be able to do all that, I'll have to pick and choose which to do, and if I can combine them to save money. I love your idea to do it all, and I would if I could, but I'm being realistic. I am getting the hair transplants end of next month. The areas it's targeting are areas I won't get any hrt regrowth. Yup electrolysis takes a while, but I'm doing it.
Good point on voice training. I'll start that this weekend.
Bari Jo
The problem doing it all or doing anything you don't actively need is, even setting potential complications aside, you run the risk of just looking fake and plastic. Happens to cis-women all the time. And purely scientifically, no matter how attractive that would make someone in theory, in reality it makes you look far worse due to triggering the uncanny valley effect in onlookers. (Summary of uncanny valley: It's a reference to a graph that shows as something approaches human looking without being human, it triggers a massive increase in outright revulsion. This is why so many people find realistic dolls, mannequins, and other similar objects creepy, the reason the Polar Express is a monstrosity of film, and so forth. Too much plastic surgery basically pulls you out of the acceptable human standard and can place you more in that porcelain doll territory. Demonic little things that they are, that is not the company you want to be in. ;D)
Google "uncanny valley and plastic surgery" and you get endless hits including scientific papers.
Quote from: Roll on October 18, 2017, 11:00:41 AMThe problem doing it all or doing anything you don't actively need is, even setting potential complications aside, you run the risk of just looking fake and plastic.
The problem of not doing it all is that you run the risk of being misgendered. The uncanny valley is already present thanks to testosterone.
But what one "actively needs" is the matter for interpretation. And that will vary, depending on how one actually responds to being misgendered, not to mention the kind of life one hopes to live after finishing transition. To be able to effectively practice nondisclosure, it's best to leave no stone unturned.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 18, 2017, 12:46:36 PM
The problem of not doing it all is that you run the risk of being misgendered. The uncanny valley is already present thanks to testosterone.
But what if that risk is just in your head, and the threshold for risking misgendering was long since passed before the full gamut of HRT? So many people here prove the contrary to what you said, as many have not had any or only limited FFS and are still definitively feminine based on just HRT and what little they do have done. That is far too much of an individual thing to say that someone should just "do it all", particularly when they are still only a few months into HRT and there is no telling what will happen. I don't have any evidence for this at all and may be entirely wrong, but I'd wager very few people do it all. Granted that there may need to be overall revisions depending on individual procedures (making sure everything works together with the changed features), but that still isn't quite the same as just doing it all.
Then putting complications and finances back into the equation you find the pros and cons weighed even more heavily against the "just do it all" approach. Of course this is not ignoring the fact that if someone desires to pass without question they may very well have to do all of this, but I say with the utmost honesty (not simply cheerleading) I just don't see that in Bari Jo's case.
Quote
But what one "actively needs" is the matter for interpretation. And that will vary, depending on how one actually responds to being misgendered, not to mention the kind of life one hopes to live after finishing transition. To be able to effectively practice nondisclosure, it's best to leave no stone unturned.
"Actively needs" is certainly open for interpretation, but at the same time I believe there is a reasonable baseline to draw for it being those procedures to correct overwhelming masculine features that despite all other facets of presentation still scream "transgender". There is not a single cis-woman alive who is "perfect" and for whom every last feature is the epitome of femininity, why should we be any different? In fact, there is evidence that the most beautiful, and undoubtedly feminine, women have some distinctly masculine features that only serve to augment their femininity. (Jennifer Aniston's chin is the example they love to give for whatever reason.) I understand that many desire unquestionable stealth, and I am not one who would ever begrudge that, but I do not believe that such level of stealth carries with it a prerequisite of being a human barbie doll, and the risk vs reward analysis is simply not in the favor of a blanket assumption that across the board FFS should be a given.
And I want to reiterate: I am absolutely not against going all out on FFS or questioning why someone would get it. If someone needs full fledged FFS, is wiling to accept the costs and risks, or even just wants it, then of course they should do what they feel they must. (Have I mentioned I hate my freaking nose? :D) I just worry that saying "do it all" as a blanket recommendation is just not the right approach.
Quote from: Roll on October 18, 2017, 01:40:01 PMBut what if that risk is just in your head, and the threshold for risking misgendering was long since passed before the full gamut of HRT? So many people here prove the contrary to what you said, as many have not had any or only limited FFS and are still definitively feminine based on just HRT and what little they do have done. That is far too much of an individual thing to say that someone should just "do it all", particularly when they are still only a few months into HRT and there is no telling what will happen. I don't have any evidence for this at all and may be entirely wrong, but I'd wager very few people do it all.
You are very gracious!
I agree, very few people will do it all. But, as I said -- and this is the main qualification of my argument --
it all depends on what you want out of transition. And what you really have going against you when it comes to getting what you want. And neither of these questions are easily answered, especially at the onset of transition.
I realized I needed female gendering, full stop. That meant a certain path -- for while I was able to elicit female gendering without facial surgery, largely thanks to my voice, I still knew that HRT wasn't going to do
anything for the bony structures of my face. I could see the damage done by T, and that was enough. Over the long term, I could not rely on HRT effectively hiding those structures with better skin and fortuitous fat placement.
Nor did I have time. HRT usually takes years -- five to seven, really -- to fully manifest themselves. I was on HRT for barely ten months before my facial surgery, and there's nothing to suggest since then that I was wrong in my self-assessment. In the meantime, I enjoyed more of my
better years having the right face.
QuoteGranted that there may need to be overall revisions depending on individual procedures (making sure everything works together with the changed features), but that still isn't quite the same as just doing it all.
Then putting complications and finances back into the equation you find the pros and cons weighed even more heavily against the "just do it all" approach. Of course this is not ignoring the fact that if someone desires to pass without question they may very well have to do all of this, but I say with the utmost honesty (not simply cheerleading) I just don't see that in Bari Jo's case.
Bari Jo has presented what's likely a most flattering picture. Even here, though, it's clear that brow bossing, nose, and a upper lip length are her major tells (as well as the ubiquitous neck-fruit). After addressing all that, though, it's not unlikely that her jaw and chin may need refinement to make everything work together in a coherent fashion. It's less expensive and less time-consuming to do it all at once, and I think the aesthetic results are better.
For Bari Jo, though, she's already well into middle age! More likely than not, HRT will have limited effect.
QuoteThere is not a single cis-woman alive who is "perfect" and for whom every last feature is the epitome of femininity, why should we be any different? In fact, there is evidence that the most beautiful, and undoubtedly feminine, women have some distinctly masculine features that only serve to augment their femininity. (Jennifer Aniston's chin is the example they love to give for whatever reason.) I understand that many desire unquestionable stealth, and I am not one who would ever begrudge that, but I do not believe that such level of stealth carries with it a prerequisite of being a human barbie doll, and the risk vs reward analysis is simply not in the favor of a blanket assumption that across the board FFS should be a given.
I think the "other women have masculine features" argument isn't well used here. Aniston has one -- just one -- feature that's not the epitome of femininity: she has a long face, not just her chine but also her nose, though her upper lip is still very short. Aniston has everything else working well -- a slight figure, small bones, a voice that will never slip, great hair, and no other "masculine" facial features. Pretty much the only transitioners for whom this applies are those who transition during adolescence.
The "do it all" approach doesn't mean becoming a "human barbie doll" -- it simply means addressing everything that can be addressed. Nor does this approach end with the body; it also takes a whole lot of work, from voice retraining to recognizing the expectations and consequences of one's social behavior given one's gendering and acting accordingly.
If one needs unequivocal female gendering, I still think this is the most effective path to getting there.
Thanks for the brutal honesty. I may go cry now, but I do appreciate it.the tunnel just got darker and longer.
Bari Jo
I had FFS, but I did not do it all. I didn't have any work done on my chin or jaw. I didn't think it was necessary, and many of my trans friends, including some who had FFS, agreed. However one of them disagreed and said I should do it all.
I wish I had listened to my friend who recommended I do it all. I might go back and get more work done, but I would have saved a lot of time, money, and pain if I had just done it all the first time.
Brutal honesty may hurt, but in the FFS subforum, it's very important that we be completely honest with each other. No sugar-coating when it comes to FFS.
Thanks for your insight. I'll keep that in mind. I'm going go schedule a consul in about 9 months to see what my options are. Another lady here recommended her FFS doctor and he's local to me, so I'll meet him.
Related/not related. I was not prepared for the impact some of these answers made on me. I ended up crying several times at work, and in front of others. I may be more guarded and think before I ask questions for a bit at least. I don't think anybody was mean spirited on purpose, it's more my insecurities coming back ten fold from the comments.
Bari Jo