Admitting and facing the trans* beast is a challenging thing. We learn alot about ourselves and patterns we've used consciously and unconsciously to cope previously.
Am I the only one who wonders if other cis family or friends are also trans* when I see similar behaviours in them, or am I just projecting?
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It's possible but for me I have come to the realization that it is more along the lines of wishfull thinking... Being as I only know one other person that is trans. I mean there are others in the area but I don't actually know any of them.
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I wondered the same thing a couple times. I've asked if my friends ever thought what they'd look like as a girl. Or another question had they ever thought of how life would be different or easier if they were a girl. The answer was always no. Also when I was struggling to accept myself earlier this year, a wise woman from Susan's told me that cis males don't have those thoughts that rattle in our heads. It resonated and I remind myself of that often.
So to answer your question I don't think it's very common. If they are cis, it probably doesn't even register to them that we see trans traits. They are cis, no questions. Sometimes I do get jealous of that clarity.
Bari Jo
I think you are projecting and it is similar to what people call gaydar or trandar. We look, as a species, for our own kind and expect to see them.
Why you may find however is that, if you are a confident and accepting TG person, that you will attract attention from others who are questioning their id. You may become a magnet for those who seek help.
I was quite amazed when a very very senior person approached me in my office. They closed the door and totally spilled his guts about his life in the hope or expectation that I would understand and accept him. I did of course and it was no way near as dramatic as he thought.
I know and have met plenty of Trans* people in real life, plus you bunch of reprobates [emoji16]. My openness about my transition at work has lead to one contact who I've been able to give some support to which is very rewarding.
I'm sure 99% of the time I'm just projecting, but I also know that until I came out, no one would have ever guessed I was trans* (hid it very well). I guess based on that, I imagine anyone could be, but I'd absolutely never ask.
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Yes I think like this too sometimes.i would never say anything as it's alup to them if they feel it is time.
But with us being out it may help others too, help them realise it's not so bad. Or give them someone to talk to even.
I've been wondering if my aunt is trans. She has always worn big clothes to hide her body, her figure. And I don't mean big female clothes. No. Shirts and jeans. Suits when she had to dress more formal, like a wedding. Never a dress or skirt. She ties her hair in a low ponytail that I believe is part of her by now. I've only seen her two or three times with her hair untied. To sum up, she's definitely not a woman that enjoys her feminity. And she always has that "I'm not happy" face. Everything around her, including her partner, has that thing that screams "something's not right with my life", just like it happened to me before transitioning.
My observation is that it's impossible to tell a transgender person from outward expressions. I've learned that gender identity and sexual orientation are very complex and often hard to nail down from my own experience. I may be projecting, too, but I know people I'm pretty sure fall under the 'Q', queer identity. It's a broad term, I know, but I have friends I've known for many years I'm sure are are unadmittedly bisexual, live a "straight" lifestyle, and exhibit some female behavioral characteristics. But, then again, I'm one who believes there is no such thing as completely binary male or female, and that everyone falls somewhere between the two along the gender and orientation spectrum. How's that for a "non-answer" answer??? :icon_confused2:
I've wondered whether a friend of mine is trans. She and I had some similar experiences growing up, as well as in our adult lives. I thought we had her after I started transitioning and she began reading up on WPATH guidelines and watching FTM YouTube videos on her own, but she's never said anything to indicate she was considering transitioning herself. I'll certainly never say anything--I just won't be surprised if she comes out one day.
Since I love ironies....I often thought about why, even Today, that "->-bleeped-<- Jokes" are still perfectly acceptable. No big public outcries. In fact, just the opposite. THe higher profile the outed TG person is, the bigger the volume of jokes.
About the only rationale I can come up with is "OMG! I had thoughts one time but NOT that insane!" There but for the grace of God..... A form of self-protection. You ran the Gauntlet and survived. You were lured to The Dark Side of The Force", unlike so and so.
I know a guy at work is openly gay and a ->-bleeped-<-. He is one of the bosses at my company. That's why I think my transition will be somewhat less bumpy. He is accepted as he is and his female character too. Even though he is a drag queen. He came as Chanelle to our x-mas dinner at work. People laughed and some made fun, but most people just accepted him as Chanelle.
I do have a trans family member, but I don't know them very well.
Anyway, I thought my mother would understand what I was talking about when I came out, because I recalled some conversations from my teens with her where she likened herself to a man without a penis, or a woman with a man's personality, or something like that. It was a rather casual conversation though, as many of our conversations about potentially deep subject matter were. But it did stick in my mind.
However, it turned out that she did not understand the reasoning behind transition at all, and declared that if she had never felt the need to change gender and undergo operations etc., she did not understand why I would. So it was just me assuming she understood because of an off-hand comment she once made. It seems that, in the end, her comments about being a man in a woman's body were nothing like the experience of being an FTM. She doesn't understand what I've been through at all, and after a few conversations since I'm fairly sure she has no idea who I am or what I'm like any more too.
My sister is a manly "dyke". Sometimes I call her Pat for fun.
Culture figures in. When I moved to Iowa and lived there 10 years, there were several folks in my church that I thought were lgbt, but in lavender relationships or in hiding. The culture there was one of conformity, but not like the religious conservatives in the south, but a more subtle passive aggressive conformity. Coming from NY, I found it odd in a Stepford sort of way. I even met people whose grandparents were Jewish and converted. That would never happen in NY. The cultural undertow is almost silent, yet strong. Sometimes I meet people at my job I suspect are trans, but never say anything. Unless they clue me in, it's none of my business. Usually shaved legs and long hair are hints. :)
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Quote from: Megan. on October 22, 2017, 05:09:05 AM
I know and have met plenty of Trans* people in real life, plus you bunch of reprobates [emoji16].
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Does this mean I owe you money Megan. Now that you are a 'mod' I guess I better pay up. :'(
I am a firm believer that there is only one person on the planet who is society's idea of normal. (It ain't me) I fantasize about a 'turn over your rock day' where everyone tells there deep, dark secrets. I think the gender landscape is not so cut and dried as it appears. I think there are people who might not be trans but have had thoughts or envies throughout their lives that will never be admitted. In some it makes them empathetic, in others, hostile to 'out' trans people. Try asking cis guys if they could have a vagina for a day, would they try it, and look at how uncomfortable they look. Have they ever thought about it, maybe. Do they admit they would try it? Well, that might depend on who is present.
Moni
If you don't like my answer, can I get a reprobate? Or do I have to go to court for that?
Quote from: HappyMoni on October 22, 2017, 01:54:06 PM
If you don't like my answer, can I get a reprobate? Or do I have to go to court for that?
I wouldn't bother. I can't even get a tax reprobate.
Quote from: HappyMoni on October 22, 2017, 01:54:06 PM
I am a firm believer that there is only one person on the planet who is society's idea of normal.
Or, as people say where I live,
"Everybody's queer but thee and me, and I'm not too sure about thee."
I've only once in my life had a friend who was definitely also trans, and that was in primary school. We sort of drifted together and knew that we could open up to each other, and we secretly dressed up together. I think that we do sometimes recognise people who might be like ourselves, and gravitate towards them, or avoid them (as I did in high school). By getting to know people you identify by what Cindy calls "trandar", you may find that at least a few of them really are trans.
Quote from: MaryT on October 22, 2017, 02:24:37 PM
Or, as people say where I live,
"Everybody's queer but thee and me, and I'm not too sure about thee."
Mary, my older relatives used to say, "Odd and queer, but not peculiar!" Not sure if that is insulting anyone or not.
Moni
Quote from: HappyMoni on October 22, 2017, 01:54:06 PM
If you don't like my answer, can I get a reprobate? Or do I have to go to court for that?
Miss Minniehooha,
I believe that foreigner across the pond has just called is all a bunch of scoundrels. What nerve!
The one I suspect is my sister. She doesn't have any problems being a female but her normal dress is jeans and a work shirt. She never wears any makeup and in the last 40 years, the only time she wore a dress was at her wedding then she couldn't wait to get out of it. She has been fully aware of my transition so if she was uncomfortable, there would be no problem finding somebody to discuss it with but she hasn't said a thing.
I used to wonder about my father's second wife. She was a very masculine woman and only ever wore jeans and work shirts. Which, in turn, made me wonder about my father.
I thought my best friend in high school might be like me. He had the most beautiful handwriting and was very sensitive. I used to imagine we were going together but I never told him, even though one night when we were out together he said to me " if you were a girl this is the part where I would try to kiss you" I wish I had spoke up then.
After high school we were still close for a couple of years. Then he got married and his wife did not like me, I can only speculate as to why. So we sort of lost touch over the years I know where he lives but I am hesitant to contact him, I don't know if he knows about me.
I had a dream about him early in my transition. I was at a wedding where they were the bride and she was beautiful, but some of the guests were being very rude to her and calling her names. I went over to tell them to stop and they started calling me names as well and I realized I was dressed as a bridesmaid. Not sure what any of that really means but it has stuck with me for years.
Never crosses my mind tbh.
I worried for years about my cousin 'D' for the longest time more that they might harm themselves being severely depressed, but that's as far as it went. After coming out to my family this summer, I learned another cousin of mine is also 'gender non conforming.' Again it never crossed my mind before and still doesn't. It's cool not being the only one, though.
It may be possible that some people you know are trans and closeted
I'm friends with a man who is outwardly just a little camp, who later admitted he would greatly prefer being female but didn't want to transition because our technologies wouldn't make the transition clean enough for him.
I think the tech holds a lot of people back, honestly.
Yes I do... quite a bit actually. It could be a stranger at a doctors office or a hotel while traveling or someone I know closer.
Recently I have been told one of my nephews is getting in trouble in Kindergarden for liking dresses and his pink bike. I need to pick this up with my brother to see if he was actually reaching out for help. I know they would be totally accepting but they may just have a ton of questions...
One of my neighbors / friends kid too. We have been suspecting for a while and his parents posted a picture of him in his sisters ballet dress. We have never seen him so happy. Keeps me wondering and I would not be surprised at all.
There are a few more...
For both I can only be there in case they have questions or need advice.
So yes. I do wonder. Would I ever say anything? Not at all.
Quote from: Megan. on October 22, 2017, 05:09:05 AM
I know and have met plenty of Trans* people in real life, plus you bunch of reprobates [emoji16]. My openness about my transition at work has lead to one contact who I've been able to give some support to which is very rewarding.
I'm sure 99% of the time I'm just projecting, but I also know that until I came out, no one would have ever guessed I was trans* (hid it very well). I guess based on that, I imagine anyone could be, but I'd absolutely never ask.
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Well if you hadn't worn that Manchester United hoodie all the time.
On the other hand I came across someone from high school on LinkedIn that looked familiar, but had a female name now. I was like, didn't that used to be Tony? I had no idea when I was in high school, but then I was in a closet with in a closet with in a closet then. She was surprised too. Now I'm a little more in tune.
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Quote from: undautri on October 22, 2017, 04:02:07 PM
It may be possible that some people you know are trans and closeted
I'm friends with a man who is outwardly just a little camp, who later admitted he would greatly prefer being female but didn't want to transition because our technologies wouldn't make the transition clean enough for him.
I think the tech holds a lot of people back, honestly.
I think this is how I looked up until a few months ago.
Quote from: Gertrude on October 23, 2017, 08:23:11 AM
On the other hand I came across someone from high school on LinkedIn that looked familiar, but had a female name now. I was like, didn't that used to be Tony? I had no idea when I was in high school, but then I was in a closet with in a closet with in a closet then. She was surprised too. Now I'm a little more in tune.
Thats my issue is I have wonders and inklings of people, but I cant possibly figure it out. i just figured me out, lol. I want there to be so I can have someone who gets me to hang out with!
Quote from: Megan. on October 22, 2017, 03:12:13 AM
Am I the only one who wonders if other cis family or friends are also trans* when I see similar behaviours in them, or am I just projecting?
You are projecting. The Williams Institute survey from 2016 (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf) found that only 0.6% of the US population identifies as transgender. That's a tiny fraction of the overall population. Statistically it's extremely unlikely that your friends and family also just happen to be trans. Almost impossible actually.
As an example, out of 200 people, only 1 is transgender. You are that one. Out of 400 people, you'll be one of only two transgender people. Are there 400 people in your life? If so, then I guess one of them might be trans. :)
Quote from: echo7 on October 23, 2017, 01:30:17 PM
As an example, out of 200 people, only 1 is transgender. You are that one. Out of 400 people, you'll be one of only two transgender people. Are there 400 people in your life? If so, then I guess one of them might be trans. :)
That assumes that you choose the people in your life randomly. The average person's chances of being eaten by a man-eating shark are pretty slim, but are significantly increased by habitually swimming with them and trying to act like an injured seal.
If we gravitate towards people who might be like ourselves, I'm sure that we increase the probability that we meet people who are like ourselves.
Quote from: echo7 on October 23, 2017, 01:30:17 PM
You are projecting. The Williams Institute survey from 2016 (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf) found that only 0.6% of the US population identifies as transgender. That's a tiny fraction of the overall population. Statistically it's extremely unlikely that your friends and family also just happen to be trans. Almost impossible actually.
As an example, out of 200 people, only 1 is transgender. You are that one. Out of 400 people, you'll be one of only two transgender people. Are there 400 people in your life? If so, then I guess one of them might be trans. :)
I think it's a lot higher. More like 1.5%.
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Quote from: echo7 on October 23, 2017, 01:30:17 PM
You are projecting. The Williams Institute survey from 2016 (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf) found that only 0.6% of the US population identifies as transgender. That's a tiny fraction of the overall population. Statistically it's extremely unlikely that your friends and family also just happen to be trans. Almost impossible actually.
I ran the numbers and figured that there would be only one or two families in the US who had multiple transgender members. The posting on the site disproved that as it happened far more often than what I calculated. At least once cause of ->-bleeped-<- is genetic so having multiple LGBT members in a family is far more likely than one would expect. For that matter, if there is one, it's likely there will be another.
Having read the article, I'm left with the thought that the numbers are probably higher - I'd like to see the numbers for the UK, Australia or Canada.
In my generation of my family, there are 7 of us.. Me, the trans lesbian.. I also have a male and female cousin who are both gay, there's another one we aren't sure of, she hasn't made any statements. This is apparently a statistical anomaly - either that or the numbers the stats are based on are wrong.
As Disraeli allegedly put it,
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Some years ago, a British woman was convicted on the basis of expert evidence that there was almost no chance of having 2 cot deaths in the same family. It was obvious to almost everyone but the judge and jury that it was a miscarriage of justice, as although cot deaths are quite rare, a physiological cause may run in the same family, increasing the chance of multiple deaths. (By British law, the fact that a court got the facts wrong is not enough reason to overturn a verdict, as the court is "the sole judge of the facts". She was eventually released when lawyers found an unrelated technicality. The expert witness was struck off by the BMA but later reinstated when a judge ruled that expert witnesses should not be afraid of giving evidence.)
AS Dena said, a genetic or physiological cause could also increase the likelihood of having multiple trans children in the same family. You can't take a mean from the the general population and assume that it applies to any small sample that you choose.
Quote from: MaryT on October 23, 2017, 05:30:07 PM
As Disraeli allegedly put it,
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".
Even without genetic predispositioning, it is an error to presume that because there is already one trans child in a family, there is almost no chance of having a second. It is an example of the "gambler's fallacy". The chance of throwing Heads twice in a row may be 1 in 4, but if Heads has already been thrown, the chance of a 2nd one is 1 in 2. If a trans person ALREADY EXISTS in a family, the chance of having another trans child is the same as if there were no trans people in the family.
Two of my four children are Trans one is FTM and the other is non binary. The one that is FTM came out over 10 years before I did, I wanted to tell them then but I was still fighting myself.
So I guess we must be unicorns or something.
In the generation where DES was commonly prescribed to mothers during pregnancy, if one sibling was exposed, there's a good chance that others were too. Environmental factors can run in families just like genetic factors do.
Of three siblings in our family, one is gay and one is trans. DES exposure is highly probable for all three of us.
I don't think anyone in my family or friends is trans. It's very likely that a couple of my friends started analyzing themselves a bit after I came out to them, but their conclusion was a NO.
I came out as trans to my wife about 3 months before I found out that my oldest grandchild was a transman so there is no chance there is any social pressure there and my family is much less than 400 so statistics dont hold up I do believe there is a genetic factor
bobbisue :)
Ok, I typed up a super long thing that was really boring as if I were doing a school paper on transgender statistics. So I decided to ditch that, because... yeah, boring and most of you have probably seen the same studies, so why bother repeating them? But I still wanted to post my stupid joke below, so.... yeah. ;D
Bottom line: All of the studies are unfortunately really flawed, and even what should be easily quantifiable variables such as SRS surgeries performed are muddied and inconsistent. Due to the nature of self reporting biases skewing data combined with improper methodology, I think it is virtually impossible to calculate the true rate of ->-bleeped-<-, and by that extension be able to draw statistical correlation between familial clusters. (Ie: If the incidence rate was higher than reported, then it would easy to imagine multiple family members coming out as transgender due to the first incidence establishing the baseline for acceptance within that family. Even if the anecdotal evidence for heritable transgender traits may be interesting and seemingly compelling, there isn't much we should assume from it statistically as truly indicative of correlation between genetics and ->-bleeped-<-. I just think the data doesn't exist to draw any conclusions in anyway essentially. Though note this does not mean to say we aren't born this way, but there is more to that than being an inheritable trait.)
Quote from: MaryT on October 23, 2017, 02:00:25 PM
That assumes that you choose the people in your life randomly. The average person's chances of being eaten by a man-eating shark are pretty slim, but are significantly increased by habitually swimming with them and trying to act like an injured seal.
Way to buzzkill my one true passion in life. Injured seal cosplay is the only thing that keeps me going.