Hi.
So almost everyone I show my current before FFS photos recommends me a lip lift. I tried to simulate it with a toothpick but have mixed feelings about it - my feeling is that it makes my mouth look a bit more like the corners drop down. But maybe thats just because I cannot simulate it for real with just pushing up the lip with toothpicks or a pen.
I had one face to face consultation where we discussed it shortly, but the surgon advised against it - not because there would not be a benefit, but because he said there will be a visible scar that, knowing me a bit, would bother me. He also said that in my case the scar cannot be hidden in a crease as there is none :(
So I am a bit unsure now. The safe option is now to not do it and I have removed it from my list of procedures because of that issue, but people keep telling me that it has a huge effect for feminization and that it totally would make sense for me. So I am torn - I definitely am not good at dealing with clearl visible facial scars that everyone knows I had some plastic surgery done, so I wonder just how bad it is. I am also not wearing Makeup except on a few rare days, so covering the scar forever with Makeup is not an option.
So basically I have some questions:
* anyone experienced a negative impact of the lip lift on the shape of the mouth (downturn of the corners=?
* anyone can tell me what the visibility of the scar in the long run depends on and maybe where can I find photos?
* What could be done to eliminate that scar if it is visible?
* Any alternative to classic lip lift? I read about endonasal lip lift, but was told it does not look natural because lip skin is inside the nose then. I also read about plasma pen treatments, but those seem to be rather new and I am not sure they actually work....
(https://snag.gy/EkpL1u.jpg)
Great questions Anjaq. All I know is that you shouldn't have it done the same time as a nose job. The nose needs to be settled before a lip lift is performed.
I'd have thought that if the cut is made really close to the nostril it wouldn't be that visible?
x
I can't say much but personally, I like your current lips. They are better than mine. Why take a risk?
That's all I have for opinion.
BTW, Vitamin E oil is great for skin health and diminish the look of scars, especially when the scar is new. Apply as often as possible. We keep several consistencies for different purposes.
@Mandy - why should it not be done at the same time? I thought it is common to do it at the same time as then the same incision can be used?
@Nameless - well I dont hate my lips now - its more the appearance of the area between my mouth and the nose that I dislike - it is a bit flat and long.
(https://snag.gy/VF9XeJ.jpg)
I am aware that my facial features are not horrible and many trans women would gladly change - or are hoping to have these features after a FFS, so I am used to being told that others need FFS much more than I supposedly do.
Vitamin E oil - I do have it but I dont know what to do - last time I had a surgery this year, the surgeon told me to first apply nothing until the stitches come out and then afterwards only apply silicone, but this as often as possible. So I dont know what to do with the Vitamin E oil then - it probably does not mix with silicone. So do it intermittently? Apply Vit E oil for an hour until it has entered the skin, then wash and apply the silikone for the rest of the day? What is the effect of the Vitamin exactly? There seem to be several issues with scars that I experienced. They can he a bit hardened, maybe even protuding a bit, they also can be depressed, leaving a groove, they can turn first red and later bright white and stay white (unless they are irritaded, then they turn red) and they usually tend to stretch and widen a bit. I think most scar treatment with silicone and maybe also Vitamins are directed against the first issue - hardened and protuding scars, but not so much the other issues?
I found the scar needed makeup for a good six months before it wasn't visible due to redness. Same for the hairline, though that isn't the same sort of issue.
Anjaq, you might want to start incorporating makeup into your daily routine now, so it's "normal" by the time of your surgery?
Quote from: anjaq on October 31, 2017, 06:54:29 AM
@Mandy - why should it not be done at the same time? I thought it is common to do it at the same time as then the same incision can be used?
Because your nose takes time to settle from surgery and if you don't allow this to happen the results of the lip lift can be truly hideous. It's best to allow 6 months between a nose job and a lip lift. I'm just telling what surgeons have said to me and it makes complete sense.
M x
Quote from: anjaq on October 31, 2017, 06:54:29 AM... Vitamin E oil - I do have it but I dont know what to do - last time I had a surgery this year, the surgeon told me to first apply nothing until the stitches come out and then afterwards only apply silicone, but this as often as possible. So I dont know what to do with the Vitamin E oil then - it probably does not mix with silicone. So do it intermittently? Apply Vit E oil for an hour until it has entered the skin, then wash and apply the silikone for the rest of the day? What is the effect of the Vitamin exactly? There seem to be several issues with scars that I experienced. They can he a bit hardened, maybe even protuding a bit, they also can be depressed, leaving a groove, they can turn first red and later bright white and stay white (unless they are irritaded, then they turn red) and they usually tend to stretch and widen a bit. I think most scar treatment with silicone and maybe also Vitamins are directed against the first issue - hardened and protuding scars, but not so much the other issues? ...
Do what your Dr says during healing. Vitamin E would be after. It will help on 'normal' skin beyond the silicone bandage area. not too close. Use vitamin E on the scar tissue only after the Dr's treatments and recommendations are done. It will help on old scars to soften and lighten them, although it'll take much longer and appear to not do anything.
I use it because my body heals too slow, it makes a huge difference. I've done testing where applied only partially, the Vitamin E treated area easily healed twice as fast. I'm not one for placebo or gimmicks, I try to confirm.
@Sophia: Yes, I guess if I am doing this, I should learn how to cover up before the surgery. My guess would be to use a bit of a concealer pen and then use BB cream for the rest of the face, maybe that is enough? It is a Makeup for Dummies version, about my skill level ;) - but the question so far is if I am getting this or not. The scar will probably be red for 3-4 months, this was the same with my breast lift scars now. But judging from those scars, afterwards they turn white (whiter than the surrounding skin) and become somewhat widened and uneven. This would then require permanent coverup, even after 6 months or a year - maybe forever? I could do Makeup for a few months to cover up healing process, but dont want to depend on it.
@Mandy: Well that sounds horrible then. Which surgeons told this? The ones I have quotes from (Facialteam, diMaggio, Telang, van der Veen and some more) never mentioned that and quite a few of them suggested a lip lift and a rhinoplasty. If that is the case, I guess lip lift is out of the question anyways with FFS, if I plan to get rhinoplasty done there, which I lean towards at this point...
@Nameless Ok, well the doctor this year told me to use silicone gel on the scars for half a year or more. So it would still help to use it afterwards? Or to use it carefully in the areas that are not covered in silicone - which is a bit hard to do as the oil is kind of moving around easily. I bought a bottle of it , but so far did not use it a lot because of the silicone gel and because the surgery was in march, so I am now using up the remaining scar silicone gel I have and then would change to the oil?
Quote from: anjaq on October 31, 2017, 09:18:24 AM@Sophia: Yes, I guess if I am doing this, I should learn how to cover up before the surgery. My guess would be to use a bit of a concealer pen and then use BB cream for the rest of the face, maybe that is enough? It is a Makeup for Dummies version, about my skill level ;) - but the question so far is if I am getting this or not. The scar will probably be red for 3-4 months, this was the same with my breast lift scars now. But judging from those scars, afterwards they turn white (whiter than the surrounding skin) and become somewhat widened and uneven. This would then require permanent coverup, even after 6 months or a year - maybe forever? I could do Makeup for a few months to cover up healing process, but dont want to depend on it.
The long term result of the scar will depend mostly on surgeon skill and how your body heals scars. Mine didn't turn white (unlike my forehead scar), but instead makes a crease for the bottom of my nose. I've gone years at a time without makeup without it being noticed.
However, I don't think you're fully grasping what I mean by makeup for the short term. Concealer and BB cream likely won't provide enough coverage. Unless you don't bruise deeply or get much redness, you should be thinking full makeup with proper foundation.
Nothing works immediate. no matter what you do the scars are more obvious when new and will be whiter (typically) than surrounding skin. How thick or thin depends on how it was closed and you.
Work the Vitamin E in like a lotion. Stay back for any fresh healing scars, you don't want to weaken it. If the silicone is working for you, see if you can get more. Definitely stay back from the silicone. I'm no Dr, I have no idea how they'd get along mixed.
I have one wide scar on my hand, 40+ yrs old (the scar, I'm older :P ). You can see it if looking for it but the color is almost identical to the surrounding skin. It's flat and soft.
When in doubt, play it safe.
A couple things models do:
Smiling
Slightly lifting the upper lip like something is yucky
These will both give a nature subtle lift to the top lip.
I'd suggest doing some research on vitamin E. I've read reports that it can make things worse and shouldn't be used. I'd go with things like Kelo-Cote, some days after the sutures have been removed.
You can not see my lip lift scar. Dr. Spiegel did my lip lift. When Dr. McGinn reviewed my FFS results she said the blethoplasty (lower) was excellent and she said she could not see the lip lift scar. She was a few feet away, perhaps 3, and was looking directly at me looking for a scar.
Why is it that with these treatments there are alway conflicting data - Vitamin E is good or maybe harmful? This sort of KeloCote and other scar creams - some like them, the surgeon I saw told me to stay away from them as they may make it worse and told me to stick with silicone gel as the only treatment...
It seems it all much mor about opinions that science :(
So, my scars on leg and breast basically all turned white and a bit uneven and stretched so far :((https://snag.gy/kC8vrJ.jpg)
This really discourages me from getting scars in openly visible areas. I have scars on my breasts all over, but I accepted that - with a bra its invisible and when I am naked, well, I need so accept that I had something done there and people can see it, but in the face it is part of everyday life, not just Sauna, locker rooms or intimacy.
@Rachel - so maybe there are some experts who do great lip lifts scars that are invisible - I dont know. I always have the impression it is only part skill of the surgeon, but big part the way the body heals. I read positive reports about almost invisible scars from various surgeons, but also often there are some people who say it is not invisible but easily concealed... so I would to find like one of the top 10 experts in lip lifts to maybe trust this to him and not just look for FFS surgeons, I guess other surgeons may do this more often?
@Sophia - so you were not just talking about the lip lift scar regarding the Makeup, but more generally about FFS? I was thinking only about the lip lift scar for the months after - though if it is red, some coverstick would cover it well and because then one spot has Makeup on it, the rest should also be toned a bit. But it sounds like you were talking more generally about the whole FFS and thus the whole face? I have no clue about full Makeup. I actually hate it - It leaves brown stains on all clothes. I keep touching my face and then smudge it. It looks plastic or like a mask if I try it - horrible.
Quote from: anjaq on November 01, 2017, 06:00:18 AM@Sophia - so you were not just talking about the lip lift scar regarding the Makeup, but more generally about FFS? I was thinking only about the lip lift scar for the months after - though if it is red, some coverstick would cover it well and because then one spot has Makeup on it, the rest should also be toned a bit. But it sounds like you were talking more generally about the whole FFS and thus the whole face? I have no clue about full Makeup. I actually hate it - It leaves brown stains on all clothes. I keep touching my face and then smudge it. It looks plastic or like a mask if I try it - horrible.
If you're coming back to work at 3 weeks, you'll still be dealing with a few more weeks of light bruising -- hence the full coverage makeup. As far as the lip lift scar goes, I've never found spot coverage to be very effective -- I find that the concealer/product is still visible and hence defeats the purpose, drawing attention to where I don't want it. Full makeup doesn't have that problem.
If you're getting makeup on your clothes, you need a better quality foundation, or perhaps a better powder to fix it with.
Quote from: anjaq on November 01, 2017, 06:00:18 AM
Why is it that with these treatments there are alway conflicting data - Vitamin E is good or maybe harmful? This sort of KeloCote and other scar creams - some like them, the surgeon I saw told me to stay away from them as they may make it worse and told me to stick with silicone gel as the only treatment...
It seems it all much mor about opinions that science :(
The effects of topical vitamin E on the cosmetic appearance of scars.CONCLUSIONS: This study shows that there is no benefit to the cosmetic outcome of scars by applying vitamin E after skin surgery and that the application of topical vitamin E may actually be detrimental to the cosmetic appearance of a scar. In 90% of the cases in this study, topical vitamin E either had no effect on, or actually worsened, the cosmetic appearance of scars. Of the patients studied, 33% developed a contact dermatitis to the vitamin E. Therefore we conclude that use of topical vitamin E on surgical wounds should be discouraged.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10417589
The Efficacy of Silicone Gel for the Treatment of Hypertrophic Scars and Keloidshttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2918339/#!po=47.6744
The Effects of Topical Agent (Kelo-Cote or Contractubex) Massage on the Thickness of Post-Burn Scar Tissue Formed in Ratshttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3840175/
Sigh. That sounds really annoying. I should have done the FFS in a time when I have no work or take a sabbattical or something. I hate full Makeup, I never was good at it when I tried. I takes many bad attempts and weeks or watching videos and practicing it in the bathroom , its bad for my skin and I am not sure I would feel comfortable with it.
So maybe it will be easier to just say to everyone I had facial surgery and deal with the awkwardness from that.... :'( Dont know why I hate Makeup so much, lots of women do it everyday and probably even more trans women do that.
So, maybe i should really just do nothing about scars then. The Kelocote and stuff makes the scar tissue thickness thinner - which seems to be the opposite of what I need at times. My scars tend to stretch, so maybe the tissue is already too thin...
Not sure about that, but I'd not use Vitamin E.
I didn't mean to present something that would cause anyone issues. It's why I said when in doubt, play it safe, and also do what the Dr says.
It works for what I use it for. I never use it on healing scars, only on healed scars. It promotes healing, for me, on other wounds. I don't have any of the issues stated in that report.
best to avoid it then, I don't want to be one to cause problems for someone else. I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on.
Quote from: NamelessOne on November 01, 2017, 06:50:01 PM
best to avoid it then, I don't want to be one to cause problems for someone else. I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on.
If we all did that these forums would be empty.
Who knows, someone may post something showing we're all wrong. Best to have open discussion.
I think Bio Oil is pretty impressive. It really helped with my facial surgery scars. Easy to find it on google but here's one example link. If you click on ingredients you'll see that it includes Vitamins A and E, as well as other oils:
https://www.biooilhealth.com/About/About-Bio-Oil
Ok, I guess then stick with either nothing at all or maybe silicone for the first half year and then if the scars are ugly, one can try to make them better with Vitamin E, BiOil or later with laser or dermabrasion or microneedling - but basically all of these methods should only be used after several months, yes?
During the scar formation, basically not much can or should be done to influence it because it is just not well enough understood to really manage to steer it into one or another direction.
So it comes down to having good luck in the first months to have a minimal scar formation and if not, one has a few options to make it better. My problem is, that I apparently dont have much luck, usually, so I can try and treat the scars I already have, I doubt much can be done there to make them worse, but my initial question was more about if I can somehow risk getting a lip lift and avoid getting a scar from it with other means than having good luck with my scars this time. I am aware that if it does not go so well, there are various things one can try to minimize the scars once they are there, but I would like to try and avoid getting them in the first place.
My impression now is, that its not possible to ensure this - it depends on my body and on good luck, knowing my body, I dont see I can avoid a lip lift scar that is visible, so I cannot get a lip lift unless I accept getting a visible scar that may or may not later on react to various scar healing treatments.
So I probably cannot get a lip lift, which is why I also asked for alternatives - can fillers or a V-Y lip plasty help something instead?
I think some surgeons are very talented at hiding the lip lift scar, so I wouldn't rule it out.
Which surgeons would that be and how to make sure that it can work?
As I probably said, I had one surgeon looking in person and close up at my nose and lip and he said its is not really possible to hide the scar well. I am not sure why that is exactly. So I would need someone who can do cases that otherwise are too hard to do? I wanted to see some pictures to see if anyone has a similar nose and lip as I have and it was still well hidden, as well as seeing how well it can be hidden in the cases that are considered easier. Basically I want to know what the most likely outcome would be.
I have a 3 1/2" scar on my cheek running from just below the corner of my eye to my jaw from cancer surgery. Derma rolling made a HUGE difference. I was sure I was going to have to have plastic surgery. A year later you have to look real year hard to see it. My surgeon was amazed at how much my Derma rolling had helped the healing!
Yes - some people make amazing scar recoveries. I have seen lip lift photos on realself (of course sort of promotional photos) where no scar is visible at all. I am envious of the results. But I also know that some people have clearly visible scarring from various procedures or surgeries - so its not something one ca assume to happen - a good scar healing
How much of the scarring from a lip lift is in the skill of the surgeon, how much is patient aftercare (not smiling, using creams,...) and how much is basically luck, the patients body, etc?
Hi Everyone, What an interesting question because I don't think about my lip lift scar at all. I have enough imperfections (at 55) that the lip lift scar doesn't really get a look in! From about 2 feet away, it really isn't visible. Very close it is easily seen and if I stretch the skin by pulling my top lip down, it is a very visible white line, not very straight!
My lip lift was done 3 years ago and isn't perfectly even because I had a mole removed at the same time and that caused one side to get lifted a tiny bit more than the other. Dr Cardenas had a debate in theatre about whether or not the mole added anything aesthetically and the once the vote was in, the mole lost! It took me 3 days to notice! I can't recall any particular surgeon having a reputation for really good lip lifts (or having had really bad outcomes). Maybe just talk to the leading surgeons. They should all be very good at it.
If I want to cover my scar up a bit, a swipe with concealer and maybe BB cream or powder over the top and I am done. I work more on the black bags under my eyes!! I have some sun damage too so the lip lift is a minor thing. All that Kiwi and Aussie sun when I was growing up.
A final note, my Rhinoplasty was done at the same time. That may have caused the less than perfect line but who knows. The fat injections in my lips might have interfered too. Take those variables away and I may have had a perfect result. I am, however far from perfect and that is just fine with me. I am not sure if I did the right thing with recovery either. I suspect a combination of all of these things and if it could have been avoided, well that is on me!
Quote from: EmmaD on November 04, 2017, 05:02:37 PM
I am, however far from perfect and that is just fine with me.
How brilliant to read that Emma. Isn't that a sign of someone who is pretty sorted? In the cis world, women and especially young girls, are pressured into attaining ever more impossible states of alleged perfection. Trans women also have a tendency, I believe, to fall prey to this.
Being 'just fine' with ourselves is surely a sign of enlightenment?
x
Yes thats a good way to go, if one can do that. However if I manage to accept being far from perfect - why do a lip lift in the first place then. A longer lip is also an imperfection, a bit of masculinity in the face that other women also can have with age - so doing a lip lift then is trading one flaw for another, so I guess its not really worth it then - either way one has to basically reach an acceptance of having some flaws and be ok with it.
Gosh, I don't think I have it that "together"! Far from it. Thanks though!
What I was getting at is that I accept that I won't get the perfect anything at all Afterwards, I know I have to live with the result. I have so many other flaws that aren't trans related that some of my trans ones are minor! Doesn't stop me getting things done and I wasn't even planning a lip lift. Dr Cardenas suggested it and seemed like a good idea! It was actually the least of my concerns and as I said, I don't give it any thought.
In terms of acceptance of my flaws, that doesn't extend to my breasts any more! In just over 2 weeks, my BA happens. I have stopped saying I have now stopped! I would say though that there is huge difference between the purely physical changes like FFS and those like VFS where my recovery and therapy period is at 8 months now and I am still doing voice exercises every day and intend to keep that up for at least another 4 months. I see Dr Kim in Melbourne next week as a follow up. It is that daily grind that wears me down!
Weigh up the options and if you still don't think it is worth it, leave it alone for now. Things may change.
Hi Anjaq,
Here are some pics of my upper lip magnified.
(https://i.imgur.com/G3SJDiH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VmbroLJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fASTGIE.jpg)
Thanks, Rachel - I cannot see any scar at all. Amazing! What type of lift was it and who did you go to?
Thanks from me as well Rachel, this is something I have been very curious about as I am also considering a lip lift.
I'll third that. Fabulous work!
xx
I went to Dr. Spiegel for the lip lift and other procedures. The lower blethoplasty scar is excellent and Dr. McGinn stated that the bleth was excellent. She said the forehead lowering scar was excellent too.
I have 2 tubes in May of juviderm applied by Dr. McGinn. I will do that again in May. I just had it added to my upper lip and a bit to the lines that run vertically from the nose to the lip. The lines flatten out with age. Two tubes was $900. I will go with 2 tubes next May too. Dr. McGinn said two or three applications and the juviderm remains pretty much permanent. I think It may need a touch up every few years.
Hmm - I never heard that Juviderm can stay permanently - but doctors claim it so patients will do it in that hope and then pay avery year to get it done again, its classified as a non permanent filler after all.
The lines from nose to lip - I am not sure which one you mean - my impression was that if there are less lines, it appears more youthful, did I understand it right that you made something to make lines more visible?
I am impressed by some lip lift scars, but I also saw some that did not go so well, from the same surgeons. So I guess its a big portion of luck. Some say, that in most cases if you look closely from a foot away or so, you will always see it.
So sadly I am still inclined not to get that procedure done with FFS, even if it surely would improve the appearance of my upper lip and feminize it, but at the price of a rather high risk of a visible scar :'(
I wish there was some procedure or some surgeon who can conistently and with high probability do a lip lift without visible scar...
The philtrum (Latin: philtrum, Greek: φίλτρον philtron, lit. "love charm"[2]), or medial cleft, is a vertical groove in the middle area of the upper lip, common to many mammals, extending in humans from the nasal septum to the tubercle of the upper lip. Together with a glandular rhinarium and slit-like nostrils, it is believed[by whom?] to constitute the primitive condition for mammals in general.
Facial aging is accompanied by perioral hard and soft tissue changes leading to wrinkles, folds, and loss of contour and volume of the lips. ... A 67-year-old woman with perioral fine lines and flattening of philtrum collumelas.Sep 2, 2013
Perioral rejuvenation: restoration of attractiveness in aging females by ...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3770626/
I just got confirmation that Dr Suporn will be happy to do a lip lift for me when he does my SRS, so I think I'm gonna do it. I've heard his stitching is superb and can't find any local surgeon who does the procedure regularly. He is also doing my Trachea reduction... so that leaves my nose and forehead to worry about.
You are lucky, one of his last official patients then? I wish he was still around doing surgery but the man has earned his reduction in workload. I also wish he would have been around to do m GRS but its too long ago.
Yes. I have faith in his work re: scarring, and I will also get laser treatment on it eventually if I need it. Thinking to do that will all my post-surgery scars actually.
I think laser treatment only works on elevated hypertrophic scars, right? I sadly usually get hypotrophic, hypopigmented or stretched scars, which are not that easy to treat
I'm not sure I haven't researched into it much. But other scars I have all seem to be hypertrophic. Does it depend on genetics?