Hi everyone,
I was with my psychiatrist the other day and we began to talk in depth about the brain science of gender and especially hormones. We know now that the brain is capable of altering DNA and, indeed, is astonishingly adaptable. We also know the different elements which control hormone production stem, in part, from the brain and not simply from ovaries or testicles etc.
Now I have no major natural hormones: I'm a trans woman so have no testicles.
So he put to me an interesting theory. How about, he wondered, you took nothing at all for a time? Apart from the slight risk of osteoporosis further along the road, would your brain adjust to what your consciousness wishes? In other words, would your body be capable of settling into natural oestrogen production via the adrenal and pituitary glands?
I'd love to know more on the science of this. What happens if we take no external hormones at all?
xx
If you have surgery and don't take hrt you may also feel very low in energy. Theres a few here who have done that. There's also a few posts here about osteoporosis so I don't think it's a slight risk, and it can be very serious.
In Australia a psychiatrist is a medical doctor with additional psych training. It doesn't sound your one has a medical background. Maybe a therapist?
Hi,
Well a couple of points that ay be misunderstanding.
Your brain cannot alter your DNA.
Hormone production in the body is under the control (mainly) of the Pituitary Gland, which is located just under the brain close to the brain stem. It is an endocrine gland (hormone producing gland) that makes the hormones that stimulate the other hormone glands to work.
Your oestrogen production or testosterone production is due to (mainly) the ovaries or testes, without them you will not produce enough to maintain other functions that those hormones control.
Osteoporosis is not a minor problem, it is a major life threatening and crippling issue.
In short, no the brain will not adjust to what you desire.
Mandy,
The best way to describe what would happen if you stopped Hormone therapy is you would be like a post menopause woman. Expect all the problems post menopause women have to deal with.
BTW as for the brain altering DNA? It is really the other way around. DNA alters the brain. We are all different, but really the same, if that makes any sense. ???
You can change DNA expression, turning genes on and off by altering their environment. But you cannot change the DNA itself.
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Some interesting responses so far. I'd love to see some scientific links to back up if possible.
Anonymous - yep he's a very eminent medically trained doctor and one of the world's leading experts in his field of psychiatry.
Yes, the brain can alter DNA. This is the remarkable finding of Epigenetics. We already know that RNA, which closely relates to DNA, can be deployed by some animals to edit genetic instructions https://www.newscientist.com/article/2127103-squid-and-octopus-can-edit-and-direct-their-own-brain-genes/
Epigenetics is a truly remarkable area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
There is increasing evidence that are we much less set in stone than was previously thought:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1392256/
"Another significant epigenetic process is chromatin modification. Chromatin is the complex of proteins (histones) and DNA that is tightly bundled to fit into the nucleus. The complex can be modified by substances such as acetyl groups (the process called acetylation), enzymes, and some forms of RNA such as microRNAs and small interfering RNAs. This modification alters chromatin structure to influence gene expression. In general, tightly folded chromatin tends to be shut down, or not expressed, while more open chromatin is functional, or expressed.
One effect of such processes is imprinting. In genetics, imprinting describes the condition where one of the two alleles of a typical gene pair is silenced by an epigenetic process such as methylation or acetylation. This becomes a problem if the expressed allele is damaged or contains a variant that increases the organism's vulnerability to microbes, toxic agents, or other harmful substances. Imprinting was first identified in 1910 in corn, and first confirmed in mammals in 1991."
And note this:
"Manel Esteller, director of the Cancer Epigenetics Laboratory at the Spanish National Cancer Center in Madrid, and his colleagues evaluated 40 pairs of identical twins, ranging in age from 3 to 74, and found a striking trend, described in the 26 July 2005 issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Younger twin pairs and those who shared similar lifestyles and spent more years together had very similar DNA methylation and histone acetylation patterns. But older twins, especially those who had different lifestyles and had spent fewer years of their lives together, had much different patterns in many different tissues, such as lymphocytes, epithelial mouth cells, intra-abdominal fat, and selected muscles.
As one example, the researchers found four times as many differentially expressed genes between a pair of 50-year-old twins compared to 3-year-old twins, and the 50-year-old twin with more DNA hypomethylation and histone hyperacetylation (the epigenetic changes usually associated with transcriptional activity) had the higher number of overexpressed genes. The degree of epigenetic change therefore was directly linked with the degree of change in genetic function."
Researchers have identified about 80 human genes that can be imprinted.
That leaves a lot that cannot be, but there is evidence that amongst which might be altered are hormones and chromosomes: which we already know to be far more complex simply than XX and XY, for instance around SRY-genes.
Quote from: Deborah on November 11, 2017, 05:47:55 AM
You can change DNA expression, turning genes on and off by altering their environment. But you cannot change the DNA itself.
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I'm always rather suspicious when people say something cannot be done. Flying in the air, landing on the moon etc. have all fallen foul of such statements. The science behind DNA research is suggesting that it is far more unpredictable and flexible than hitherto believed. As mentioned above, there appear to be around 80 human genes that can be imprinted.
I'm expecting that the more DNA manipulation enters the mainstream, and indeed primary, mechanism of health care so we will see how incredibly flexible we are.
And speaking of which, I've just ordered this book. Cannot wait to read it:
Thomas Bevan: The Psychobiology of Transsexualism and ->-bleeped-<-: A New View Based on Scientific Evidence
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1440831262/ref=pe_3187911_185740111_TE_item
xx
Quote from: Mandy M on November 11, 2017, 05:56:22 AM
I'm expecting that the more DNA manipulation enters the mainstream, and indeed primary, mechanism of health care so we will see how incredibly flexible we are.
I agree that we are extremely flexible in terms of DNA expression. It's not hard to do and you can change that yourself positively with such simple things as diet and exercise. You can also do it negatively with exposure to bad things.
As for medical DNA alteration itself maybe that could be done with designer viruses or nanotechnology. But we're not there yet. I'm not sure that would help with our particular issue though.
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If you try it I'd suggest getting bone density scans periodically to make sure you stay safe. Also search these forums as there's women here who have gone without hrt for years. No way on earth I'd do it.
I love the idea of neuroplasticity. For instance, we now know that Buddhist brains are altered by meditation:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2944261/
"Over the course of meditating for tens of thousands of hours, the long-term practitioners had actually altered the structure and function of their brains."
Can anyone disprove to me why that shouldn't be possible in trans hormonal treatment? ;)
xxx
I can only speak to what happened to me over six months.
1. Significant loss of muscle mass and strength. 40 to 50%. The upper body mass wasn't too bad but I hated being unable to open jars or pick up my motorcycle.
2. Hot flashes, sometimes dozens a day - miserable.
3. Night sweats, wake to a wet bed.
4. fuzzy thinking (I hated this one)
5. Total lack of energy.
Most of these resolved when I went on E. then added low low T which helped the rest.
I saw NO NO positive benefit from no hormones.
Leslie
Quote from: Mandy M on November 11, 2017, 06:24:42 AM
I love the idea of neuroplasticity. For instance, we now know that Buddhist brains are altered by meditation:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2944261/
"Over the course of meditating for tens of thousands of hours, the long-term practitioners had actually altered the structure and function of their brains."
Can anyone disprove to me why that shouldn't be possible in trans hormonal treatment? ;)
xxx
That study makes no claims of DNA change, merely a physical change within the structure and function of the brain - similar can be seen in many that do repetitive tasks.
You (and your psychiatrist) are the one suggesting this, isn't the onus on you to prove the possibility?
Because of a poorly informed doctor, I was off estrogen for 10 years. My calcium intake was sufficient to prevent bone damage however it's also possible that my genetics were a factor as well. While my estrogens weren't tested, I know they were very low because HRT was discontinued I went through menopause lasting well over a year. Without estrogen, the minimal feminine fat that I had started moving around. Facial fat left the side of my face, fat deposited in my legs left resulting in less shapely hips and my breasts also lost some of their fullness. This fat redeposited in my abdomen area and was very difficult to lose as it remain even when I was in a healthy weight range.
Other people noticed this as well. Shortly after I discontinues HRT, a co worker remarked about me losing weight when I hadn't. My mother thought I needed to gain weight even when I was 10 pounds overweight. After I was back on HRT for about a year, and with weight loss, my mother remarked that I now looked good and not to lose any more weight ???
Some estrogen seems to be required if we are to maintain our appearance. It's possible that some people will naturally produce enough estrogen but your levels should be checked and if it isn't enough, I highly recommend a maintenance dose to maintain what you have gained. I suspect a half or a quarter of your transition dosage would be sufficient to maintain what you have but be very careful if you are considering discontinuing HRT.
I am now going through a third puberty. My prescriber will not give me a full transition dosage because of my age as well as I was supposed to be fully developed so I am stuck at a half transition dosage. Combine this with my original treatment reduced me to a quarter dosage after surgery so body development was minimal over the 20 years after surgery. While slow, I am seeing development beyond what I have had in the past because my body never reached it's full potential.
The only saving grace to this whole mess is that I any body dysphoria I had was limited to between the legs. It didn't bother me that I have a somewhat boyish figure so I haven't considered body reshaping or breast augmentation. This is now a bit of a head trip for me because my breast are growing beyond what they were before and I seem to be developing a bun for the first time in my life.
Quote from: Mandy M on November 11, 2017, 05:52:39 AM
Some interesting responses so far. I'd love to see some scientific links to back up if possible.
Anonymous - yep he's a very eminent medically trained doctor and one of the world's leading experts in his field of psychiatry.
Yes, the brain can alter DNA. This is the remarkable finding of Epigenetics. We already know that RNA, which closely relates to DNA, can be deployed by some animals to edit genetic instructions https://www.newscientist.com/article/2127103-squid-and-octopus-can-edit-and-direct-their-own-brain-genes/
Epigenetics is a truly remarkable area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
Now you've got me thinking back to a class I took last semester. From memory... Epigenetics doesn't involve changing the DNA as such. The gene that has been 'turned off' is still carried by those who aren't expressing it. It is still in the DNA. It hasn't been changed or deleted. And it may be switched on and expressed in the next generation (offspring) but I think that also depends on the wildtype gender...paternal and maternal imprinting and all that.
I don't believe DNA can be modified by the brain, in every cell there are precautions taken to prevent exactly that from happening. DNA preservation is of utmost importance when it comes to replication on a cellular level. When mutations do happen, it is extremely rare and I don't think it's deliberate, nor to the point of causing the body to produce oestrogen when it doesn't even have ovaries. Seems farfetched to me.
By the same logic as saying epigenetics changes DNA, we could say the same about oestrogen. When it binds to it's receptor, the receptor travels into the nucleus and switches on certain genes. You need oestrogen for it to happen though!
I think it might be I portent to note that in post menapausal women other forms of estrogen remain when the production of Estrodial drops off. So while they experience osteoporosis and some brain fog, there remains mild activation of E receptors although I don't know the affinity these other estrogen forms have for each of the receptor types. I have read that some women receiving full historectomies have worse brain for issues than the average post menapausal woman does. While this is of course subjective reporting it would stand to reason that the extreme lack of sex hormones would deprive the body and brain of needed functions.
I did not look this up but I wonder about the total capable production of the pituitary for sex hormones. It can produce small amounts of testosterone and via aromatase, estradiol and it produces small amounts of progesterone. However without blood circulating amounts you would severely limit the precursor factors for important neurotransmitters.
I would also look up the relationship between the sex hormone production and control of osteoclasts versus osteoblasts activity. We know sex hormone loss leads to osteoporosis therefore there is a link. Again I have not looked this up, just making connections to think about.
Quote from: josie76 on November 11, 2017, 08:16:04 PM
I did not look this up but I wonder about the total capable production of the pituitary for sex hormones. It can produce small amounts of testosterone and via aromatase, estradiol and it produces small amounts of progesterone.
Are you sure? I don't think that's right. The pituitary produces gonadotropin hormones which act on the testes/ovaries to produce sex hormone. I'm pretty sure the pituitary gland doesn't produce sex hormones directly. It just tells the testes/ovaries when to do so.
Yeh just read it is hypothalamus that can actually produce tiny amounts for use in the brain for neurotransmitter functions.
Hi Mandy,
I am an avid follower of Dr. Ronda Patrick. Not only can epigenetics effect you but it can effect your offspring for 2 generations. Epigenetics effect sperm and eggs. Yes, epigenetics from lack of or cross hormones will effect epigenetics.
She has pod casts of researchers and their science from around the world. I ingest spermidine and precursors of sulforaphane ( I make broccoli sprouts, heat them and freeze them as she defines) I also do HIIT, My goal is to get rid of defective cells, reduce inflammation, increase executive function and preserve my telomeres (repair them would be nice). Ultimately, I want to optimize my epigenetics.
Dr. Ronda Patrick has a web site Found My Fitness. She is a cancer researcher.
Meditation increased the length of telomeres. I meditate every day.
Quote from: Leslie601 on November 11, 2017, 06:54:11 AM
I can only speak to what happened to me over six months.
1. Significant loss of muscle mass and strength. 40 to 50%. The upper body mass wasn't too bad but I hated being unable to open jars or pick up my motorcycle.
2. Hot flashes, sometimes dozens a day - miserable.
3. Night sweats, wake to a wet bed.
4. fuzzy thinking (I hated this one)
5. Total lack of energy.
Most of these resolved when I went on E. then added low low T which helped the rest.
I saw NO NO positive benefit from no hormones.
Leslie
Thank you so much for sharing this gruelling personal story Leslie. That's pretty sobering stuff and I'm so sorry you went through it all :(
xx
I do not have a pituitary gland, it was destroyed by a tumour 12 years ago. It is a total loss (very rare, usually some of it survives) and so I supplement all my hormones daily.
Earlier this year I had to stop taking sex-hormones for a medical reason, after a few days on no hormones the effects were intollerable, and got a lot worse. I became very lethargic, my brain stopped working normally (fog and forgetfulness), I lost power in my muscles, I felt depressed and I lost muscle and tone in my body. The human body needs at least some T and E to survive. I would not wish my worst enemy to go through it and would strongly advise against it. If you do not have any ovaries or testes then you need to supplement your hormone levels or your life will be one of pain, illness and very short.
I am also a microbial geneticist, and have followed the epigenetics discoveries very closely for over 20 years. There are some amazing things scientifically proven with epigenetics. Such as how well fed your grandmother was as a child can effect how you accumulate fat in your body - I mean wow, your grandmother.
The problem is, people with little understanding, take these valid scientific proofs and spin them to their own ends.
If you spend time up a mountain, then an epigenetic marker will allow your body to produce an enzyme that allows you to use oxygen better. This is caused by the low levels of oxygen in your system. The younger you are the quicker this epigenetic factor is created and applied. There is no evidence that if you think about living in a low oxygen environment it will have any effect. Epigenetics seem to be environmental in determinisation, only allowing parts of the genetic code to be expressed or supressed. Whilst thinking can and does change the brain patterns (after all that is the probable cause of how we generate memories) and can modulate hormones to some extent (If you feel fear, either real or imagined your cortisol can rise - the cause of modern day stress) there is no mechanism that exists to actually modify the genetic code. You cannot create hormones within your body without the endocrine gland responsible for that hormone. (and yes some hormones can be converted from others, but you need the precusor to start with).
The best explanation of epigenetics I ever heard was from an under-graduate, she equated it to a recipe for sweet shotcrust pastry, and the epigenetic marker was a piece of tape covering the sugar content of the ingredients. When it was in place, the recipe produced short-crust pastry, without it, sweet... The recipe has not changed, just its expression has been modified.
As I said, the problem comes from people taking scientific fact and saying what if... Then saying well actually I think...
and from here we head into quackery. Repeated the world over from the earliest history.
That reminds me I have half a dozen bottles of snake oil if anyone's interested, guaranteed to do whatever you think it will (also know as a placebo).
Keep taking the drugs
Take care
Hugs
Sarah.
And that ^^^ is a phenomenal post. Thank you, Sarah. It repays re-reading several times.
I did try this for a week and, guess what? Yep ... I zeroed out on energy. I found myself falling asleep at any points during the day - sometimes it was extremely embarrassing such as when I was interviewing someone. I totally ran out of juice. I running on air.
So the anecdotal, and scientific, lesson appears to be that 1. yes epigenetics is amazing but 2. it won't control your hormones if you fail to supplement them.
Essentially you will have all the symptoms of a eunuch. Some positive, some negative. I think you could achieve some of the permanent rewiring you are talking about (or something similar) but not without supplementing your diet with specific herbs or other supplements. The ones I'm thinking of actually aren't hormonal, but cause a shift in your endocrine feedback loop