I've been mulling this idea over in my mind for the past few years. It all started the day I was pulled over on my way to a transgender support meeting...
I could have dressed in my best, and put on my makeup/wig at the meeting place. I guess I was just very exited to finally meet others like me for the first time, I had gotten ready hours ahead of time. At the time, I used to drive a sporty looking car. A red Escort ZX2. I live in Shoshone country, the law enforcement here is pretty laid back. They don't profile. The next county over is totally different, even a little corrupt. Unfortunately, the meeting place was in the next county, Kootenai County. I didn't think much of it at the time, the city where the meeting place used to be has non discrimination laws in effect.
Awareness, and the law can leave grey areas I guess. I was pulled over just before the city limit. They profile vehicles to do drug raids on the interstate regularly. It started out with the usual. Can I see your license, registration, proof of insurance. When I spoke up, I was asked to step out of my car, and lean on the hood of the cop car. "Why are you dressed in women's clothing?" -asked the cop. I tried to mutter something because I was nervous, every passer by gawking at me. "It's a simple question!" Blurted the cop.
I told the officer I was going to a transgender support meeting. He said he never heard of such a thing. "I don't want to catch you like this again." Said the cop. After a quick search for drugs, or weapons, I was left off with a warning.
I know that was a bad scene, and I have come to terms with how it made me feel. Mostly afraid.
Since that incident, the county of which that officer belongs to has since undergone training for such situations. My own hometown county may have, but I doubt it.
The thing I have been thinking about is setting up a meeting with my local law enforcement to help educate them about transgender issues. At least to see if they have the basic awareness. I don't have community support locally for something like this, it just doesn't exist. There used to be, but those groups have disbanded. Since my local lgbt/transgender support groups have been fading away, I feel like awareness may be fading away where it is needed most.
I have been assaulted, and threatened many times since I was outed in my hometown six years ago. Things have calmed down since, and I have been dealing with those problems. Even so, one day I may need police help as I begin my transition. So far as I know, there are a handful of transgender people living in my county. I want to be sure local law enforcement is something I (we) can count on, and not have to fear.
I was wondering if anyone has experience with meeting law enforcement to educate, and inform them about transgender rights (of which Idaho has little to none). Any thoughts, or suggestions? Keeping in mind that I live in a backwoods/backwards place in the country.
I want to create a positive relationship with my local law enforcement. Open a dialogue with them that is informative, and constructive.
Where do you live??? That's very inappropriate behavior from the cop. He totally has no right to tell you not to dress that way again. That's just incredible to me that he told you not to let him catch you dressed like that again. There are no laws against dressing in female clothes. And really it was none of his business why you were dressed that way. My dad is a police officer and here in Denver the police take a class on appropriate treatment of LGBT people. Unfortunately some cops are dicks. It sounds like you ran into one.
:)
I live in north Idaho. In some places here, the sensibilities haven't changed much from that of 1950's living. Change is coming though, but it's slow coming. There are some progressive, and informed police officers here, but also about an equal or greater who are not. I ran into one of the old world views type that day.
The problem is that I could have been arrested for whatever that cop though he could get away with, and that would have been a bad day. In Idaho, without lgbt support/backup, you can be mistreated by law enforcement, and no one would know.
I'm hoping I can change that. I don't know exactly how, but I'm going to try to speak with officials who are willing to look at these issues. I'm going to try :)
My local trans* support works very closely with the local police, giving them advice and they us. When there have been incidents of conflict with other members of the public, the police have been very supportive.
I think if they are keen to learn, it would be a great thing if you could help raise their awareness. X
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Yes, Idaho is a little backward! I lived in Glenns ferry and Pocatello half of my 61 years and have been stopped and prodded by police! They did treat me ok but as a oddity! Love the state!
I would call the department and see if you could set up a meeting with somebody at the department but you need to work out a presentation that will help out cause!
Good luck!
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Quote from: Dana1979 on November 19, 2017, 05:33:15 AM
I've been mulling this idea over in my mind for the past few years. It all started the day I was pulled over on my way to a transgender support meeting...
I could have dressed in my best, and put on my makeup/wig at the meeting place. I guess I was just very exited to finally meet others like me for the first time, I had gotten ready hours ahead of time. At the time, I used to drive a sporty looking car. A red Escort ZX2. I live in Shoshone country, the law enforcement here is pretty laid back. They don't profile. The next county over is totally different, even a little corrupt. Unfortunately, the meeting place was in the next county, Kootenai County. I didn't think much of it at the time, the city where the meeting place used to be has non discrimination laws in effect.
Awareness, and the law can leave grey areas I guess. I was pulled over just before the city limit. They profile vehicles to do drug raids on the interstate regularly. It started out with the usual. Can I see your license, registration, proof of insurance. When I spoke up, I was asked to step out of my car, and lean on the hood of the cop car. "Why are you dressed in women's clothing?" -asked the cop. I tried to mutter something because I was nervous, every passer by gawking at me. "It's a simple question!" Blurted the cop.
I told the officer I was going to a transgender support meeting. He said he never heard of such a thing. "I don't want to catch you like this again." Said the cop. After a quick search for drugs, or weapons, I was left off with a warning.
I know that was a bad scene, and I have come to terms with how it made me feel. Mostly afraid.
Since that incident, the county of which that officer belongs to has since undergone training for such situations. My own hometown county may have, but I doubt it.
The thing I have been thinking about is setting up a meeting with my local law enforcement to help educate them about transgender issues. At least to see if they have the basic awareness. I don't have community support locally for something like this, it just doesn't exist. There used to be, but those groups have disbanded. Since my local lgbt/transgender support groups have been fading away, I feel like awareness may be fading away where it is needed most.
I have been assaulted, and threatened many times since I was outed in my hometown six years ago. Things have calmed down since, and I have been dealing with those problems. Even so, one day I may need police help as I begin my transition. So far as I know, there are a handful of transgender people living in my county. I want to be sure local law enforcement is something I (we) can count on, and not have to fear.
I was wondering if anyone has experience with meeting law enforcement to educate, and inform them about transgender rights (of which Idaho has little to none). Any thoughts, or suggestions? Keeping in mind that I live in a backwoods/backwards place in the country.
I want to create a positive relationship with my local law enforcement. Open a dialogue with them that is informative, and constructive.
That's terrible! I'm sorry that you were treated that way, & by an officer of the law to boot!!
I actually attend a trans support group led by a retired police officer. I'll email her and see what her thoughts are & get back to you.
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That is horrible that they treated you that way.
I would have been tempted to say, "Oh, sorry, I thought you were a real cop. I didn't realize you were the fashion police." >:-) Hopefully if I ever find myself in that situation, I would have the sense to keep my mouth shut like you did! It wouldn't be a good idea to actually say that.
The situation certainly calls for some follow-up. If you can put together an educational presentation, that would be so great!
That police department definitely needs training. Searches like that are a violation of the 4th amendment. Doing pretty much exactly that is what got our sherif Joe Arpaio in all his legal trouble. They shouldn't be permitted to search your car without your permission and if you don't grant it, they need to produce a warrant from a judge before they can search it. Fortunately I have never been searched and that's how it should be.
Thank you all for the comments! I appreciate them :). Any help would be awesome @ JessiCalypso!
I'm looking forward to making contact with my county sheriff on the subject. I'm hoping they will be receptive to me offering in person insight, and information. My county does have some lgbt officers. I'm hoping maybe I can coordinate with those who know the inner workings of the job (law enforcement).
The very least I can see if my county has had some kind of information made available to their staff.
We have very few protections in Idaho. Legislation doesn't recognize our fundamental rights equally. Some cities have laws that deter discrimination, but it should be state wide.
If I alone can't change my state's lawmaking by voting, maybe I can try to educate others where it counts day to day. I've never done anything like this before, or I should say going to do. I've always been the one who stays out of trouble, keeping to my comfort zone. Getting out of that comfort zone is part of life I think. I wouldn't be where I am if I haven't. Doing something feels better than doing nothing when things could be improved.
Idaho state police seem to have the power to do as they please. Other counties too. It's best to cooperate. That's why I'm so glad my county police are different in the good ways. My county is all small town people. They don't get too exited.
Firstly, such an awesome topic for this forum! I am a Trans woman and also a police sergeant with a Connecticut municipal police department and Im on the inside track of police / transgender relationships.
The officer who stopped you is by no means an anomaly. He is reflective of the greater society as a whole.
You mention profiling...why were you stopped...ther must be probable cause to legally detain.
Why were you proned on the hood of your car? A "Terry stop" is a search for weapons based on reasonable suspicion and cant be done randomly. A search for drugs via patdown is illegal unless its subsequent to arrest...its your Constitutional protection against illegal search and seizure.
Aside from the legality of the stop, the officers demeanor is once again not unique. Most cops, in rural jurisdictions havent a clue as to what the transgender community is about. You said you "spoke up" when the cop asked for your license, reg and insurance. Thats a legal request on his part so Im not clear on what there is to debate.
The crux of the encounter is that it left you feeling violated...and rightfully so. Im living full time as a woman and yet my heart skips a beat when I get pulled over...even as a cop! My thoughts go to..."God I hope its someone I know" and "Oh ->-bleeped-<- now I have to explain myself to yet another cop...great now they have something to talj about in the locker room". It sucks.
As far as some of the advice Ive read here from others recommending you antagonize the cop, questioning if hes a real cop etc..blah blah, thats sophmoric, ignorant and counterproductive. It doesnt help the trangender cause.
The best way to address questionable police behavior is through the chiefs office (In smaller agencies) or via the citizen complaint protocol in larger departments. They will pay attention...believe me, litigation scares the pants off of a police department.
Effecting change on a state level is admirable but also difficult. Ive spoken to the Connecticut State Legislature in open session on both domestic violence laws and child sexual assault issues and I found them to be receptive. You will need cohorts to effect lasting and profound change and youll find that its a process not an event.
Best of luck and I apologize for the ignorance displayed by some of my fellow officers. We arent all like that.
Toni O :police:
It never hurts to reach out to the police department and at least finding out how receptive they would be to this. In the worst case, all you'll get back is probably silence. In the best case, you can effect real change.
Also, this may be a useful reference to some... the ACLU has some good info on what your rights are:
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights
Their list includes topics like being pulled over, being searched, etc. They also have a section specifically dedicated to transgender issues that is good:
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/transgender-people-and-law
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Thank you for those links. Very helpful! They also show that while we've come a long way, we still have a long way to go...
Thank you for the links :)
I'm going to look into that information.
Some things I didn't include earlier, of which I have tried to persue an investigation, but hut dead ends...
I was pulled over randomly on the interstate on a separate occasion. I was wearing a feminine jogging outfit. I guess being dressed that way made the officer order me to exit my car, and sit on the guard rail. Two more cops showed up. I was asked if I had drugs/weapons. My person was searched -the cop pulled my yoga pants down enough to reveal my panties. He then proceeded to pull up on my underwear wedgie style, three times.
That incident is a trigger for me. I left that separate incident out. After I tried to contact a lawyer, I was told my case wouldn't hold up because shortly afterwards I was hospitalized. I could not obtain the information needed to file a complaint.
That incident is a main reason I want to establish a dialogue with my local law enforcement.
As for proper police procedure, I need to learn more. I know these searches happen all the time, twice to me. When you got four or more officers giving you orders, it can be very intimidating.
A trans specific legal source for both information and legal rep is LAMBDA.
https://www.lambdalegal.org/helpdesk
While engaging in dialog with the agency is often helpful, trying to correct what you describe as illegal actions on the part of the police does not take place in a rapport building environ. Its an adversarial process that should be addressed legally. Your hospitalization has no relevance whatsoever to the validity of your complaint.
Build bridges to LE after your can take the abusive incident out of the picture. You cant rectify an issue as serious as what you describe through rapport building.
Another source for you may be the Idaho States Attorney....best of luck and stay safe.
Toni
Thank you for the information :)
My hospital stay was from pneumonia (hard to spell that one). A lot of time had passed, and I was too weak to see what I could do about what happened.
I've had a lot of bad in my lifetime. Healing wounds, and coming to terms with past problems has been a long road. I learned that if I can turn bad experiences into positive changes -doing that actually heals the scars that I couldn't heal before. Ignoring then didn't help either.
Building bridges, opening a dialogue. Positive reinforcement. That's the best way I can imagine to make change that can stick. I don't have much influence, or power to contribute to local community, but I can do this. Honestly, being with a room full of police officers is pretty intimidating. That is another goal I have, to loose that irrational fear. I don't want to fight, I want to connect. Those things might have happened for a reason, I want to see where it goes, and try to make life better.
What an awful experience that must have been. Hardly the sort of treatment that makes law enforcement approachable.
I hope it doesn't happen often. I have heard of some (non-trans) related brushes with law enforcement who are looking for someone to "nab" even out in the sticks where I am and that's an unfortunate reality - some of the cops are just looking for something to do and someone to tell off.
I suppose if you had a card for the meeting place or medical letter or something on your person in future, it might prove to them they have no grounds for harassing you. Not that a trans person should need to carry such things.
This may sound strange but the best thing to do is flatter them.
Talk about how wonderful Law Enforcement is, and talk nicely about the Constitution, and how great this country is where you can express who you are and such.
Ultimately, cops are people that love this country and it's laws. Even if you don't agree with all of the laws, and they probably don't either, there is a democratic system to change them.
Being nice towards them can go a long way towards them letting you go with a warning...
That was a terrible event. I can't imagine that having happened on my first trip to the support group.
Recently I was pulled over because of no tags on a Tuesday, after we bought a car from the owner on a Saturday. (IL license office is closed Monday's) I gave the officer my license, which the picture still has a beard, the title of the car signed by the seller with the date, and the insurance card, yes we bought insurance the day we bought the car.
He returned the title and insurance card along with a ticket for no registration. He said he was keeping my license. I said "you're keeping my license for a ticket?". He responded that I was technically under arrest and that he could have the car towed and impounded, but he was letting me go home since I had my kids in the car. I had just picked up my kids at the Catholic School half a block away.
So this is where it gets funky. He wrote the I proper law reference on the ticket. The law he referenced was actually "defendants rights". So I fill out a motion to dismiss and go down to the courthouse to get my license back.
First stop, country checks office. Nope we can't handle that, go back downstairs and find the traffic desk. Ok waited in line. No that's not a traffic law written on the ticket, go back upstairs to the main county clerks desk. Ok. Nope, can't do that should be traffic. Well then go downstairs, past the traffic desk, down the long hall to the States Attorney's office and ask them. Ok, did I forget to say that at this point I'm barely walking because I'm suffering from nerve pain from herniated discs pressing on my spinal cord? Every step is excruciating but I get down there to their window. The lady lest me explain this all. She says sit down while I go check on this. She's gone for about 20minutes. Comes back and says I need to take this ticket back to the city department that issued it and get it corrected.
So now I'm like, WTF. They wrote it out wrong, that's exactly the reason I am trying to file a motion to dismiss. Then she says, they can either do away with it or fix it and she would dismiss it as soon as it hits her office's desk. Ok, so where is my drivers license? Turns out, in the meantime, the city whose officer issued the ticket had mailed my license back to my home address an hours drive away.
I take this ticket back to the city that issued it. Pull a chair over to that police departments window in the village hall, and wait. That towns chief of police was in the office that day and came over. He took the ticket and looked at it saying that's not right, it should be xxx law reference. So I explain I just went around the courthouse and ended up in the states attorney's office with a motion to dismiss. He looked at me funny and said, I'll just void this ticket. I'll write an official letter to the courthouse". First he was not used to someone going direct to the states attorney on their own, then he was annoyed and looking closely at the officer's signature to determine just who issued the ticket.
Anyway, here I am in the middle of southern Illinois obviously trans having to deal with the courts and police in an area where a small city has more than a dozen Baptist and evangelical churches. Not fun.
:)
My people skills have gotten better over the last few years, specifically with law enforcement. It is still intimidating, but I have a few friends in my hometown valley. Cops are people, and people can vary widely in personality, demeanor.
One might argue that sometimes law enforcement needs a presentation on how to relate to civilians in a, well -civil manner. It goes both ways though.
A very good point was made, about some sort of identification for transgender people. I want to include the idea of possibly adding a description/endorsement/notation on a driver's license for transgender people. Granted I know that many of us already have new ID's updated to current status -but, it is at least that idea that could be impressed upon during my presentation (if I get to that stage).
At least a verbal informed disclosure that will be recognized, and understood. That is where I want to begin. Getting officers in the know. Something that is commonplace in urban areas and such, but not so much in places where I live.
josie76, I hope all works out. I feel your pain :)
I've been there before, going through those motions. It's a learning experience.
Quote from: Dana1979 on November 21, 2017, 08:06:15 AM
:)
My people skills have gotten better over the last few years, specifically with law enforcement. It is still intimidating, but I have a few friends in my hometown valley. Cops are people, and people can vary widely in personality, demeanor.
One might argue that sometimes law enforcement needs a presentation on how to relate to civilians in a, well -civil manner. It goes both ways though.
A very good point was made, about some sort of identification for transgender people. I want to include the idea of possibly adding a description/endorsement/notation on a driver's license for transgender people. Granted I know that many of us already have new ID's updated to current status -but, it is at least that idea that could be impressed upon during my presentation (if I get to that stage).
At least a verbal informed disclosure that will be recognized, and understood. That is where I want to begin. Getting officers in the know. Something that is commonplace in urban areas and such, but not so much in places where I live.
josie76, I hope all works out. I feel your pain :)
I've been there before, going through those motions. It's a learning experience.
There are more of us Transgender police officers out there than most people realize. We have our own fight to fight within our agencies and on the streets. A large segment of the public, including a portion of tbe LGB*Q community, despises both our professions AND our trans status.
That being said, we are still out there when the 911 call comes through and Ive NEVER had a person question my being a trans woman when they were bleeding out at a car accident or when I was doing CPR on their dying husbands.
http://www.tcops-international.org
Quote from: VeronicaLynn on November 20, 2017, 09:57:40 PM
This may sound strange but the best thing to do is flatter them.
Talk about how wonderful Law Enforcement is, and talk nicely about the Constitution, and how great this country is where you can express who you are and such.
Ultimately, cops are people that love this country and it's laws. Even if you don't agree with all of the laws, and they probably don't either, there is a democratic system to change them.
Being nice towards them can go a long way towards them letting you go with a warning...
The best thung to do is to treat them with the same respect you have the right to expect from them. :police:
@ Toni 0
Hello :)
Your points are absolutely valid, and I appreciate your thoughts. I'm a little slow when it comes to acknowledging comments, still getting the hang of things. I'm always afraid I'm bumping a post I've written too much, but in keeping of the discussion I think it is appropriate.
I have great admiration of you. Inspiration. I think of the work I've done to get where I am, and it pales in comparison to the accomplishments you have. I know I'm not the only one who is inspired by your station, and status.
It goes in step with what I want to try to accomplish on my home turf - helping to show all sides of the equation. Adding people as part of the solution. Too often, and too easy a viewpoint can become one sided. I mentioned some of my negative experiences as examples from my own life. There are more sides to the general subject. There are damn good police officers out there, more than most realize. What the world needs is to see the good outshine the bad, but it often doesn't go that way. I'm no different, and I realize that.
I'm learning to put aside my differences. Coming together is the best way to accomplish the greater good. Even though we do this, its not always perfect. Something of a tribal paradox that creates conflict -but altogether is an illusion made by irrational fears.
I can only imagine how much you have endured, and worked for. Even though we don't know much about each other, I can say that I am proud of you. And all of here should honor the strength you represent to the community. :)